Who REALLY Killed Joseph & Hyrum Smith? A Panel of Experts Debunk WKJS Using Real Ballistics and Forensic Evidence

[ransomme]

Are you doing that they needed to die?

Paul seemed to think so : "For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth." (Hebrews 9:17)

Also look at the bigger picture, including revelations in the D&C, BY and the spiritual wifery group, BY and the other counterfeiters, BY et al. going on a marrying frenzy as soon as Joseph & Hyrum were murdered, BY trying sell the Nauvoo temple before they even did any ordinances in it, BY & co. fleeing months early than planned from Nauvoo in freezing temperatures, BY changing the way tithing worked 6 weeks after Joseph & Hyrum's murders, BY dying without paying the Church back for funds he "borrowed", and the list goes on and on.

Brigham Young was one of those who, alongside Joseph and Hyrum, actually helped to quell the spiritual wifery fiasco spawned by John C. Bennett. You'll see Brigham's name listed many times in the Times and Seasons articles which people like to point to from Joseph. As far as Brigham Young "counterfeiting" money, Joseph was accused of this also, and the accusations are quite silly in reality. As to Brigham "attempting to sell the Nauvoo Temple," this was because they thought they might leave the US sooner than they did. It turned out not to happen that way and he was the one who can be credited for the Temple's completion and the administration of the ordinances therein. They had to flee "months earlier than they had planned" because the mobs were busy razing people's barns and houses. They had to leave or else they would have been boxed into Nauvoo and slaughtered. Your little "list" is a list of misrepresented half-truths and twisted factoids taken out of context, slanted to appeal to your own biased agenda.

If what you are saying is true, then what, the law of Moses was junk, and the Sinai covenant, and the Abrahamic covenant, and the Davidic covenant, and, and, and...? They all did it wrong and they never died to seal thieir "testaments"? Oh, and how about Enoch, Elijah, John the Beloved and the three Nephites who went and got translated? I mean, Enoch and the everlasting covenant is kind of really important.

What do you think Paul was really talking about? Perhaps, the Lamb of God and only about Jesus and the Atonement.

And BY was the ring leader of the spiritual wifery, after all he had his own revelation even before Joseph Smith supposedly told him about polygamy.

Also the Nauvoo temple was never completed (only 80%) especially not by the appointed time that the Lord gave. And you can look up in the newspaper the ad showing BY trying to sell the Nauvoo temple before they even dedicated the basement. (C'moon 6 dedications on just pieces of the temple?) And you are completely wrong about what was happening when the BY left and why. It was because he heard that he was indicted for counterfeiting, and was afraid of being arrested. Which is why he headed for Mexico (Utah was a part of Mexico before the war ended). Also your idea about the mobs pushing them out is wrong. It should be self evident by the fact that 1) they stayed in Nauvoo for a couple years after Joseph and Hyrum were murdered; 2) only BY and a small portion of the members left Feb. 10th in subfreezing temperatures. If you think about that what you are saying, you imply that BY left most of the members to die in Nauvoo because most stayed behind. Usually people say it was so they could scout ahead and plant crops, but even that defies reason. How do you think Emma and others stayed in Nauvoo after BY and hang left? They would have been easy pickings for the supposed mobs.

Seriously, I'm sorry to break the news to you like this. If you want chapter and verse, I can provide them. And with legit sources, like from BYU about the Nauvoo temple, etc.

[stormcloak]

If what you are saying is true, then what, the law of Moses was junk, and the Sinai covenant, and the Abrahamic covenant, and the Davidic covenant, and, and, and...? They all did it wrong and they never died to seal thieir "testaments"? Oh, and how about Enoch, Elijah, John the Beloved and the three Nephites who went and got translated? I mean, Enoch and the everlasting covenant is kind of really important.

Much blood and suffering was experienced for the Law of Moses to be established amongst the Israelites. For the Abrahamic Covenant, Abraham had to witness before God that he was willing to sacrifice his own son to Him. And then they did sacrifice an actual ram. The Davidic Covenant was fulfilled in Christ's sacrifice, which of course involved the shedding of His blood. According to the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible, the Everlasting Covenant was really more firmly established between God and Noah after the Flood had finished:

And God made a covenant with Noah and said, This shall be the token of the covenant I make between me and you, and for every living creature with you, for perpetual generations:

I will set my bow in the cloud; and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.

And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud; and I will remember my covenant, which I have made between me and you, for every living creature of all flesh. And the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.

And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant, which I made unto thy father Enoch, that, when men should keep all my commandments, Zion should again come on the earth, the city of Enoch, which I have caught up unto myself.

And this is mine everlasting covenant: that when thy posterity shall embrace the truth and look upward, then shall Zion look downward, and all the heavens shall shake with gladness, and the earth shall tremble with joy;

And the general assembly of the church of the firstborn shall come down out of heaven, and possess the earth, and shall have place until the end come. And this is mine everlasting covenant, which I made with thy father Enoch.

And the bow shall be in the cloud, and I will establish my covenant unto thee, which I have made between me and thee, for every living creature of all flesh that shall be upon the earth.

And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant which I have established between me and thee, for all flesh that shall be upon the earth.

(JST Genesis 9:18-25)

From this, it's clear that the Flood was the precursor to the Everlasting Covenant's establishment. Quite literally, the blood of almost the entire population of the earth had to be shed for this covenant to be given.

I'm not sure why you think that I believe any of these covenants which you mentioned did not require a massive amount of bloodshed to be fulfilled. They absolutely did. Likewise, the Book of Mormon is utterly filled with stories of the wars that enabled the golden plates to be preserved and translated for us in our day.

What do you think Paul was really talking about? Perhaps, the Lamb of God and only about Jesus and the Atonement.

Obviously he was talking about the same thing which John the Revelator saw:

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

(Revelation 6:9-11)

And BY was the ring leader of the spiritual wifery, after all he had his own revelation even before Joseph Smith supposedly told him about polygamy.

Actually, it was John C. Bennett, the Laws, the Higbees, and the Fosters who were the main ones involved in and pushing the spiritual wifery scandal. You don't seem to read the actual history you claim to know. Joseph Smith never attacked Brigham Young in the Times and Seasons or accused him of anything to do with spiritual wifery. If Brigham had been involved in it in any significant way, Joseph would have known about it and something would have been mentioned in all the voluminous statements which were produced about the scandal. Yet as it sits, you can't find the slightest whisper of evidence for this claim.

Also the Nauvoo temple was never completed (only 80%) especially not by the appointed time that the Lord gave.

Lol, this dumb idea has been totally debunked:

And you can look up in the newspaper the ad showing BY trying to sell the Nauvoo temple before they even dedicated the basement. (C'moon 6 dedications on just pieces of the temple?) And you are completely wrong about what was happening when the BY left and why. It was because he heard that he was indicted for counterfeiting, and was afraid of being arrested. Which is why he headed for Mexico (Utah was a part of Mexico before the war ended).

That was a lie being spread by the enemies of the Church as an excuse to trap him and assassinate him as they had done to Joseph and Hyrum. The burnings of the farms and houses which I talked about is very well documented. Even George Miller, an opponent of Brigham Young, was very involved in this portion of history and left a very detailed account of what happened here, and explained that this is why the Saints left to the west under the leadership of Brigham Young.

Also your idea about the mobs pushing them out is wrong. It should be self evident by the fact that 1) they stayed in Nauvoo for a couple years after Joseph and Hyrum were murdered; 2) only BY and a small portion of the members left Feb. 10th in subfreezing temperatures.

Wow, lol. Did you learn your Mormon history from a trash can? This is very basic stuff. They stayed in Nauvoo, but were constantly harassed and attacked. I'm guessing you never even heard of a little thing called the Battle of Nauvoo (which was a pretty big deal). MANY people left during the winter. I don't know what you think a "small portion" is, but it's probably the same way you think being shot 4 times isn't that much.

If you think about that what you are saying, you imply that BY left most of the members to die in Nauvoo because most stayed behind.

This is objectively not true. Most of the members did not stay behind, but either followed Brigham Young or James Strang. You can read some details about what a big deal the move was just from an economic perspective here: https://rsc.byu.edu/far-away-west/econo ... voo-exodus

The exodus totally changed the face of Nauvoo's economy. Lots of important businesses had to close down and liquidate their assets rapidly, causing many to leave.

Usually people say it was so they could scout ahead and plant crops, but even that defies reason. How do you think Emma and others stayed in Nauvoo after BY and hang left? They would have been easy pickings for the supposed mobs.

Emma stayed and wasn't harassed because Nauvoo was a ghost town by the time everyone else left. There was no reason for them to attack one small family in a small, dead frontier town. Especially with more important issues (cough Civil War cough) looming on the horizon. Emma's family was small potatoes compared to bringing down the Church in Utah, which the US Government tried to do very hard.

Seriously, I'm sorry to break the news to you like this. If you want chapter and verse, I can provide them. And with legit sources, like from BYU about the Nauvoo temple, etc.

I'm sorry that you're apparently a total ignoramus when it comes to history and scripture. Like I just did, I'd be happy to give you more scriptures and history with chapter, verse, page number, etc. But you really seem to be in need of much more serious help than I'm able to offer you here, as you seem to lack a basic grasp on scriptural and historical fundamentals.

[ransomme]

If what you are saying is true, then what, the law of Moses was junk, and the Sinai covenant, and the Abrahamic covenant, and the Davidic covenant, and, and, and...? They all did it wrong and they never died to seal thieir "testaments"? Oh, and how about Enoch, Elijah, John the Beloved and the three Nephites who went and got translated? I mean, Enoch and the everlasting covenant is kind of really important.

Much blood and suffering was experienced for the Law of Moses to be established amongst the Israelites. For the Abrahamic Covenant, Abraham had to witness before God that he was willing to sacrifice his own son to Him. And then they did sacrifice an actual ram. The Davidic Covenant was fulfilled in Christ's sacrifice, which of course involved the shedding of His blood. According to the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible, the Everlasting Covenant was really more firmly established between God and Noah after the Flood had finished:

And God made a covenant with Noah and said, This shall be the token of the covenant I make between me and you, and for every living creature with you, for perpetual generations:

I will set my bow in the cloud; and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.

And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud; and I will remember my covenant, which I have made between me and you, for every living creature of all flesh. And the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.

And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant, which I made unto thy father Enoch, that, when men should keep all my commandments, Zion should again come on the earth, the city of Enoch, which I have caught up unto myself.

And this is mine everlasting covenant: that when thy posterity shall embrace the truth and look upward, then shall Zion look downward, and all the heavens shall shake with gladness, and the earth shall tremble with joy;

And the general assembly of the church of the firstborn shall come down out of heaven, and possess the earth, and shall have place until the end come. And this is mine everlasting covenant, which I made with thy father Enoch.

And the bow shall be in the cloud, and I will establish my covenant unto thee, which I have made between me and thee, for every living creature of all flesh that shall be upon the earth.

And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant which I have established between me and thee, for all flesh that shall be upon the earth.

(JST Genesis 9:18-25)

From this, it's clear that the Flood was the precursor to the Everlasting Covenant's establishment. Quite literally, the blood of almost the entire population of the earth had to be shed for this covenant to be given.

I'm not sure why you think that I believe any of these covenants which you mentioned did not require a massive amount of bloodshed to be fulfilled. They absolutely did. Likewise, the Book of Mormon is utterly filled with stories of the wars that enabled the golden plates to be preserved and translated for us in our day.

What do you think Paul was really talking about? Perhaps, the Lamb of God and only about Jesus and the Atonement.

Obviously he was talking about the same thing which John the Revelator saw:

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

(Revelation 6:9-11)

And BY was the ring leader of the spiritual wifery, after all he had his own revelation even before Joseph Smith supposedly told him about polygamy.

Actually, it was John C. Bennett, the Laws, the Higbees, and the Fosters who were the main ones involved in and pushing the spiritual wifery scandal. You don't seem to read the actual history you claim to know. Joseph Smith never attacked Brigham Young in the Times and Seasons or accused him of anything to do with spiritual wifery. If Brigham had been involved in it in any significant way, Joseph would have known about it and something would have been mentioned in all the voluminous statements which were produced about the scandal. Yet as it sits, you can't find the slightest whisper of evidence for this claim.

Also the Nauvoo temple was never completed (only 80%) especially not by the appointed time that the Lord gave.

Lol, this dumb idea has been totally debunked:

And you can look up in the newspaper the ad showing BY trying to sell the Nauvoo temple before they even dedicated the basement. (C'moon 6 dedications on just pieces of the temple?) And you are completely wrong about what was happening when the BY left and why. It was because he heard that he was indicted for counterfeiting, and was afraid of being arrested. Which is why he headed for Mexico (Utah was a part of Mexico before the war ended).

That was a lie being spread by the enemies of the Church as an excuse to trap him and assassinate him as they had done to Joseph and Hyrum. The burnings of the farms and houses which I talked about is very well documented. Even George Miller, an opponent of Brigham Young, was very involved in this portion of history and left a very detailed account of what happened here, and explained that this is why the Saints left to the west under the leadership of Brigham Young.

Also your idea about the mobs pushing them out is wrong. It should be self evident by the fact that 1) they stayed in Nauvoo for a couple years after Joseph and Hyrum were murdered; 2) only BY and a small portion of the members left Feb. 10th in subfreezing temperatures.

Wow, lol. Did you learn your Mormon history from a trash can? This is very basic stuff. They stayed in Nauvoo, but were constantly harassed and attacked. I'm guessing you never even heard of a little thing called the Battle of Nauvoo (which was a pretty big deal). MANY people left during the winter. I don't know what you think a "small portion" is, but it's probably the same way you think being shot 4 times isn't that much.

If you think about that what you are saying, you imply that BY left most of the members to die in Nauvoo because most stayed behind.

This is objectively not true. Most of the members did not stay behind, but either followed Brigham Young or James Strang. You can read some details about what a big deal the move was just from an economic perspective here: https://rsc.byu.edu/far-away-west/econo ... voo-exodus

The exodus totally changed the face of Nauvoo's economy. Lots of important businesses had to close down and liquidate their assets rapidly, causing many to leave.

Usually people say it was so they could scout ahead and plant crops, but even that defies reason. How do you think Emma and others stayed in Nauvoo after BY and hang left? They would have been easy pickings for the supposed mobs.

Emma stayed and wasn't harassed because Nauvoo was a ghost town by the time everyone else left. There was no reason for them to attack one small family in a small, dead frontier town. Especially with more important issues (cough Civil War cough) looming on the horizon. Emma's family was small potatoes compared to bringing down the Church in Utah, which the US Government tried to do very hard.

Seriously, I'm sorry to break the news to you like this. If you want chapter and verse, I can provide them. And with legit sources, like from BYU about the Nauvoo temple, etc.

I'm sorry that you're apparently a total ignoramus when it comes to history and scripture. Like I just did, I'd be happy to give you more scriptures and history with chapter, verse, page number, etc. But you really seem to be in need of much more serious help than I'm able to offer you here, as you seem to lack a basic grasp on scriptural and historical fundamentals.

Please read the whole book of Hebrews, or at least chapters 8-10. You are taking those verses or of context. The "testaments" that Paul is taking about are the old (law of Moses) and new covenant made with Israel. Humbly I say that you disrespect Christ's sacrifice

You also misunderstand the idea of the blood. For one, the flood victims were never a blood sacrifice. Also it's the covenant-victim who's blood is shed and needs to die. The animal blood under the law of Moses was in similitude of Jesus, and didn't have the power unto salvation. Thus Jesus came and drank the butter cup and shed his blood for us. The old way of cutting covenants in blood with animals was fulfilled in the Lamb of God. Now we must:

3 Nephi 9
20 And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost...

D&C 59
8 Thou shalt offer a sacrifice unto the Lord thy God in righteousness, even that of a broken heart and a contrite spirit.
9 And that thou mayest more fully keep thyself unspotted from the world, thou shalt go to the house of prayer and offer up thy sacraments upon my holy day;

[Alexander]

"If people like Brigham and others were doing illicit things such as the Higbees and Bennett, Joseph would have known and done something about it"

My favorite attribute of Joseph was his omniscience... Apparently Joseph knew every minute detail of every single persons' lives in Kirtland and Nauvoo. Nothing was hid from Joseph; it was laid out entirely before him; he knew EVERYTHING.

[Luke]

If what you are saying is true, then what, the law of Moses was junk, and the Sinai covenant, and the Abrahamic covenant, and the Davidic covenant, and, and, and...? They all did it wrong and they never died to seal thieir "testaments"? Oh, and how about Enoch, Elijah, John the Beloved and the three Nephites who went and got translated? I mean, Enoch and the everlasting covenant is kind of really important.

Much blood and suffering was experienced for the Law of Moses to be established amongst the Israelites. For the Abrahamic Covenant, Abraham had to witness before God that he was willing to sacrifice his own son to Him. And then they did sacrifice an actual ram. The Davidic Covenant was fulfilled in Christ's sacrifice, which of course involved the shedding of His blood. According to the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible, the Everlasting Covenant was really more firmly established between God and Noah after the Flood had finished:

And God made a covenant with Noah and said, This shall be the token of the covenant I make between me and you, and for every living creature with you, for perpetual generations:

I will set my bow in the cloud; and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.

And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud; and I will remember my covenant, which I have made between me and you, for every living creature of all flesh. And the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.

And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant, which I made unto thy father Enoch, that, when men should keep all my commandments, Zion should again come on the earth, the city of Enoch, which I have caught up unto myself.

And this is mine everlasting covenant: that when thy posterity shall embrace the truth and look upward, then shall Zion look downward, and all the heavens shall shake with gladness, and the earth shall tremble with joy;

And the general assembly of the church of the firstborn shall come down out of heaven, and possess the earth, and shall have place until the end come. And this is mine everlasting covenant, which I made with thy father Enoch.

And the bow shall be in the cloud, and I will establish my covenant unto thee, which I have made between me and thee, for every living creature of all flesh that shall be upon the earth.

And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant which I have established between me and thee, for all flesh that shall be upon the earth.

(JST Genesis 9:18-25)

From this, it's clear that the Flood was the precursor to the Everlasting Covenant's establishment. Quite literally, the blood of almost the entire population of the earth had to be shed for this covenant to be given.

I'm not sure why you think that I believe any of these covenants which you mentioned did not require a massive amount of bloodshed to be fulfilled. They absolutely did. Likewise, the Book of Mormon is utterly filled with stories of the wars that enabled the golden plates to be preserved and translated for us in our day.

What do you think Paul was really talking about? Perhaps, the Lamb of God and only about Jesus and the Atonement.

Obviously he was talking about the same thing which John the Revelator saw:

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

(Revelation 6:9-11)

And BY was the ring leader of the spiritual wifery, after all he had his own revelation even before Joseph Smith supposedly told him about polygamy.

Actually, it was John C. Bennett, the Laws, the Higbees, and the Fosters who were the main ones involved in and pushing the spiritual wifery scandal. You don't seem to read the actual history you claim to know. Joseph Smith never attacked Brigham Young in the Times and Seasons or accused him of anything to do with spiritual wifery. If Brigham had been involved in it in any significant way, Joseph would have known about it and something would have been mentioned in all the voluminous statements which were produced about the scandal. Yet as it sits, you can't find the slightest whisper of evidence for this claim.

Also the Nauvoo temple was never completed (only 80%) especially not by the appointed time that the Lord gave.

Lol, this dumb idea has been totally debunked:

And you can look up in the newspaper the ad showing BY trying to sell the Nauvoo temple before they even dedicated the basement. (C'moon 6 dedications on just pieces of the temple?) And you are completely wrong about what was happening when the BY left and why. It was because he heard that he was indicted for counterfeiting, and was afraid of being arrested. Which is why he headed for Mexico (Utah was a part of Mexico before the war ended).

That was a lie being spread by the enemies of the Church as an excuse to trap him and assassinate him as they had done to Joseph and Hyrum. The burnings of the farms and houses which I talked about is very well documented. Even George Miller, an opponent of Brigham Young, was very involved in this portion of history and left a very detailed account of what happened here, and explained that this is why the Saints left to the west under the leadership of Brigham Young.

Also your idea about the mobs pushing them out is wrong. It should be self evident by the fact that 1) they stayed in Nauvoo for a couple years after Joseph and Hyrum were murdered; 2) only BY and a small portion of the members left Feb. 10th in subfreezing temperatures.

Wow, lol. Did you learn your Mormon history from a trash can? This is very basic stuff. They stayed in Nauvoo, but were constantly harassed and attacked. I'm guessing you never even heard of a little thing called the Battle of Nauvoo (which was a pretty big deal). MANY people left during the winter. I don't know what you think a "small portion" is, but it's probably the same way you think being shot 4 times isn't that much.

If you think about that what you are saying, you imply that BY left most of the members to die in Nauvoo because most stayed behind.

This is objectively not true. Most of the members did not stay behind, but either followed Brigham Young or James Strang. You can read some details about what a big deal the move was just from an economic perspective here: https://rsc.byu.edu/far-away-west/econo ... voo-exodus

The exodus totally changed the face of Nauvoo's economy. Lots of important businesses had to close down and liquidate their assets rapidly, causing many to leave.

Usually people say it was so they could scout ahead and plant crops, but even that defies reason. How do you think Emma and others stayed in Nauvoo after BY and hang left? They would have been easy pickings for the supposed mobs.

Emma stayed and wasn't harassed because Nauvoo was a ghost town by the time everyone else left. There was no reason for them to attack one small family in a small, dead frontier town. Especially with more important issues (cough Civil War cough) looming on the horizon. Emma's family was small potatoes compared to bringing down the Church in Utah, which the US Government tried to do very hard.

Seriously, I'm sorry to break the news to you like this. If you want chapter and verse, I can provide them. And with legit sources, like from BYU about the Nauvoo temple, etc.

I'm sorry that you're apparently a total ignoramus when it comes to history and scripture. Like I just did, I'd be happy to give you more scriptures and history with chapter, verse, page number, etc. But you really seem to be in need of much more serious help than I'm able to offer you here, as you seem to lack a basic grasp on scriptural and historical fundamentals.

Hahaha you nailed it mate. I’ve literally never seen such doctrinal or historical ignorance in my life. It’s pathetic. But “if they want to be ignorant, let them be ignorant”.

[Luke]

"Brigham Young was one of those who, alongside Joseph and Hyrum, actually helped to quell the spiritual wifery fiasco spawned by John C. Bennett."

WOW...have you drunk the Koolaid

You actually believe that?

I don't have to "believe" it. It's what's printed in the Times and Seasons. Maybe you haven't read that?

Issue, date please.

The same Times and Seasons with Taylor as editor?? Joseph only had editorial control for a short period. Brigham pushed out Robinson shortly after Don Carlos died...Brigham wanted HIS man in control of the narrative. Taylor purposely omitted evidence that cleared Joseph of things he was accused of...with friends like that...

Lol… that same Robinson who was an opponent of BY and yet still claimed that JS was a polygamist.

Funny how everyone seemed to agree

[stormcloak]

"If people like Brigham and others were doing illicit things such as the Higbees and Bennett, Joseph would have known and done something about it"

My favorite attribute of Joseph was his omniscience... Apparently Joseph knew every minute detail of every single persons' lives in Kirtland and Nauvoo. Nothing was hid from Joseph; it was laid out entirely before him; he knew EVERYTHING.

Well, I think it's reasonable to believe that Joseph would have known something if Brigham were involved the whole Bennett scandal it in a major way. After all, he uncovered virtually dozens of others involved. Surely Brigham wasn't that good at hiding if you guys—180 years later mind you—can figure out all his dirty little secrets

Here's a nice little quote from Sidney Rigdon's son about it (FYI, Sidney Rigdon and Brigham Young weren't friends post-1844—not sure if you know that because historical illiteracy seems to be the norm around here these days):

As to the truth of the doctrine of polygamy being introduced by the Prophet Joseph Smith, deponent [i.e., John W. Rigdon, son of Sidney Rigdon] further says: Joseph Smith was absolute so far as spiritual matters were concerned, and no man would have dared to introduce the doctrine of polygamy or any other new doctrine into the "Mormon" Church at the city of Nauvoo during the years 1843 and 1844, or at any other place or time, without first obtaining Joseph Smith's consent. If anyone had dared to have done such a thing he would have been brought before the High Council and tried, and if proven against him, he would have been excommunicated from the Church, and that would have ended polygamy forever, and would also have ended the man who had dared to introduce such a doctrine without the consent of the Prophet Joseph.

(Affidavit of John W. Rigdon, as printed in Blood Atonement and the Origin of Plural Marriage, Correspondence between Elder Joseph F. Smith, Jr. of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Mr. Richard C. Evans Second Counselor in the Presidency of the "Reorganized" Church (Independence, Jackson County, Missouri: Zion's Printing and Publishing Company, 1905), p. 83; emphasis added)

Cool-looking "black sun" in your avatar there by the way... so now you have me curious: do you bash on Brigham Young for being a "racist" as well as a "dreaded polygamist"?... while donning a symbol from the Third Reich? If so, I must ask, "Oh consistency, where art thou?"

[stormcloak]

Please read the whole book of Hebrews, or at least chapters 8-10. You are taking those verses or of context. The "testaments" that Paul is taking about are the old (law of Moses) and new covenant made with Israel. Humbly I say that you disrespect Christ's sacrifice

Humbly—your opinion about my respect towards Christ's sacrifice means about as much to me as scrawled graffiti in a public bathroom

Of course Paul's words in Hebrews 9:17 are referring to Christ's great sacrifice, and the Covenant established and fulfilled through Him. Yet we would do well to remember that his words were also written during a time when Christians were being martyred frequently for their faith in Jesus. Certainly he had reference to Jesus Christ's Atonement in his remarks—but not only Him. The fact is that the same type of "testament" or "covenant" to which Paul is referring—the kind that activates upon death—is something which is found throughout the scriptures and applies to many characters in the scriptures. Christ is the chiefest example we have of such a covenant, but the Lectures on Faith make it plain that this DOES NOT only apply to Christ, but we must expect it to apply to OURSELVES as well if we expect to obtain Celestial Glory—and that it has applied to all others who have obtained such Glory:

"Let us here observe, that a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things, never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation; for from the first existence of man, the faith necessary unto the enjoyment of life and salvation never could be obtained without the sacrifice of all earthly things: it was through this sacrifice, and this only, that God has ordained that men should enjoy eternal life; and it is through the medium of the sacrifice of all earthly things, that men do actually know that they are doing the things that are well pleasing in the sight of God. When a man has offered in sacrifice all that he has, for the truth's sake, not even withholding his life, and believing before God that he has been called to make this sacrifice, because he seeks to do his will, he does know most assuredly, that God does and will accept his sacrifice and offering, and that he has not nor will not seek his face in vain. Under these circumstances, then, he can obtain the faith necessary for him to lay hold on eternal life.

"It is in vain for persons to fancy to themselves that they are heirs with those, or can be heirs with them, who have offered their all in sacrifice, and by this means obtained faith in God and favor with him so as to obtain eternal life, unless they in like manner offer unto him the same sacrifice, and through that offering obtain the knowledge that they are accepted of him. [i.e., Christ's sacrifice on its own is not sufficient for us to obtain such a knowledge]

"It was in offering sacrifices that Abel, the first martyr, obtained knowledge that he was accepted of God. And from the days of righteous Abel to the present time, the knowledge that men have that they are accepted in the sight of God, is obtained by offering sacrifice: and in the last days, before the Lord comes, he is to gather together his saints who have made a covenant with him by sacrifice. Psalms 50:3-5: Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant unto me by sacrifice.

"Those, then, who make the sacrifice will have the testimony that their course is pleasing in the sight of God, and those who have this testimony will have faith to lay hold on eternal life, and will be enabled, through faith, to endure unto the end, and receive the crown that is laid up for them that love the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ. But those who do not make the sacrifice cannot enjoy this faith, because men are dependent upon this sacrifice in order to obtain this faith; therefore, they cannot lay hold upon eternal life, because the revelations of God do not guarantee unto them the authority so to do; and without this guarantee faith could not exist.

"All the saints of whom we have account in all the revelations of God which are extant, obtained the knowledge which they had of their acceptance in his sight, through the sacrifice which they offered unto him: and through the knowledge thus obtained, their faith became sufficiently strong to lay hold upon the promise of eternal life, and to endure us seeing him who is invisible; and were enabled, through faith, to combat the powers of darkness, contend against the wiles of the adversary, overcome the world, and obtain the end of their faith, even the salvation of their souls. [i.e., our salvation is not solely dependent upon Christ's sacrifice, but also upon the sacrifice which we make of ourselves unto Him]

"But those who have not made this sacrifice to God, do not know that the course which they pursue is well pleasing in his sight; for whatever may be their belief or their opinion, it is a matter of doubt and uncertainty in their mind; and where doubt and uncertainty is, there faith is not, nor can it be. For doubt and faith do not exist in the same person at the same time. So that persons whose minds are under doubts and fears cannot have unshaken confidence, and where unshaken confidence is not, there faith is weak, and where faith is weak, the persons will not be able to contend against all the opposition, tribulations and afflictions which they will have to encounter in order to be heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ Jesus; and they will grow weary in their minds, and the adversary will have power over them and destroy them."

(Lectures on Faith 6:7-12)

Once you understand this concept, it becomes very clear that God established another such Covenant through Joseph Smith—and that this Covenant became "ratified" or "activated" upon his death, in just the same manner as was Christ's. This is brought out very well in the following video:

You also misunderstand the idea of the blood. For one, the flood victims were never a blood sacrifice.

Perhaps not. But nevertheless, God fulfilled the Everlasting Covenant to Enoch with Noah upon the Flood's consummation. I guess the nuking of Sodom and Gomorrah was technically not a "Blood" Covenant either, nor was the eradication of the Nephite cities before Christ's condescension among the Nephites, but apparently God works however is necessary to cleanse the earth for the fulfillment of His Covenants.

Also it's the covenant-victim who's blood is shed and needs to die. The animal blood under the law of Moses was in similitude of Jesus, and didn't have the power unto salvation. Thus Jesus came and drank the butter cup and shed his blood for us. The old way of cutting covenants in blood with animals was fulfilled in the Lamb of God. Now we must:
...

Beyond simply repenting and turning our hearts unto God, according to the Lectures on Faith, we must offer the entire essence of our very being and lives if necessary unto Him, or else we cannot expect Eternal Life. This is why Joseph Smith's death signifies much more than merely an "avoidable crime." Indeed, his death was avoidable, and if it had not been for the insistence of false friends, he would not have returned to Nauvoo and been arrested. But his final days were a witness to this very sacrifice unto God of which I have just spoken, and were emblematic of the message of his entire life.

[ransomme]

If what you are saying is true, then what, the law of Moses was junk, and the Sinai covenant, and the Abrahamic covenant, and the Davidic covenant, and, and, and...? They all did it wrong and they never died to seal thieir "testaments"? Oh, and how about Enoch, Elijah, John the Beloved and the three Nephites who went and got translated? I mean, Enoch and the everlasting covenant is kind of really important.

Much blood and suffering was experienced for the Law of Moses to be established amongst the Israelites. For the Abrahamic Covenant, Abraham had to witness before God that he was willing to sacrifice his own son to Him. And then they did sacrifice an actual ram. The Davidic Covenant was fulfilled in Christ's sacrifice, which of course involved the shedding of His blood. According to the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible, the Everlasting Covenant was really more firmly established between God and Noah after the Flood had finished:

And God made a covenant with Noah and said, This shall be the token of the covenant I make between me and you, and for every living creature with you, for perpetual generations:

I will set my bow in the cloud; and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.

And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud; and I will remember my covenant, which I have made between me and you, for every living creature of all flesh. And the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.

And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant, which I made unto thy father Enoch, that, when men should keep all my commandments, Zion should again come on the earth, the city of Enoch, which I have caught up unto myself.

And this is mine everlasting covenant: that when thy posterity shall embrace the truth and look upward, then shall Zion look downward, and all the heavens shall shake with gladness, and the earth shall tremble with joy;

And the general assembly of the church of the firstborn shall come down out of heaven, and possess the earth, and shall have place until the end come. And this is mine everlasting covenant, which I made with thy father Enoch.

And the bow shall be in the cloud, and I will establish my covenant unto thee, which I have made between me and thee, for every living creature of all flesh that shall be upon the earth.

And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant which I have established between me and thee, for all flesh that shall be upon the earth.

(JST Genesis 9:18-25)

From this, it's clear that the Flood was the precursor to the Everlasting Covenant's establishment. Quite literally, the blood of almost the entire population of the earth had to be shed for this covenant to be given.

I'm not sure why you think that I believe any of these covenants which you mentioned did not require a massive amount of bloodshed to be fulfilled. They absolutely did. Likewise, the Book of Mormon is utterly filled with stories of the wars that enabled the golden plates to be preserved and translated for us in our day.

What do you think Paul was really talking about? Perhaps, the Lamb of God and only about Jesus and the Atonement.

Obviously he was talking about the same thing which John the Revelator saw:

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

(Revelation 6:9-11)

And BY was the ring leader of the spiritual wifery, after all he had his own revelation even before Joseph Smith supposedly told him about polygamy.

Actually, it was John C. Bennett, the Laws, the Higbees, and the Fosters who were the main ones involved in and pushing the spiritual wifery scandal. You don't seem to read the actual history you claim to know. Joseph Smith never attacked Brigham Young in the Times and Seasons or accused him of anything to do with spiritual wifery. If Brigham had been involved in it in any significant way, Joseph would have known about it and something would have been mentioned in all the voluminous statements which were produced about the scandal. Yet as it sits, you can't find the slightest whisper of evidence for this claim.

Also the Nauvoo temple was never completed (only 80%) especially not by the appointed time that the Lord gave.

Lol, this dumb idea has been totally debunked:

And you can look up in the newspaper the ad showing BY trying to sell the Nauvoo temple before they even dedicated the basement. (C'moon 6 dedications on just pieces of the temple?) And you are completely wrong about what was happening when the BY left and why. It was because he heard that he was indicted for counterfeiting, and was afraid of being arrested. Which is why he headed for Mexico (Utah was a part of Mexico before the war ended).

That was a lie being spread by the enemies of the Church as an excuse to trap him and assassinate him as they had done to Joseph and Hyrum. The burnings of the farms and houses which I talked about is very well documented. Even George Miller, an opponent of Brigham Young, was very involved in this portion of history and left a very detailed account of what happened here, and explained that this is why the Saints left to the west under the leadership of Brigham Young.

Also your idea about the mobs pushing them out is wrong. It should be self evident by the fact that 1) they stayed in Nauvoo for a couple years after Joseph and Hyrum were murdered; 2) only BY and a small portion of the members left Feb. 10th in subfreezing temperatures.

Wow, lol. Did you learn your Mormon history from a trash can? This is very basic stuff. They stayed in Nauvoo, but were constantly harassed and attacked. I'm guessing you never even heard of a little thing called the Battle of Nauvoo (which was a pretty big deal). MANY people left during the winter. I don't know what you think a "small portion" is, but it's probably the same way you think being shot 4 times isn't that much.

If you think about that what you are saying, you imply that BY left most of the members to die in Nauvoo because most stayed behind.

This is objectively not true. Most of the members did not stay behind, but either followed Brigham Young or James Strang. You can read some details about what a big deal the move was just from an economic perspective here: https://rsc.byu.edu/far-away-west/econo ... voo-exodus

The exodus totally changed the face of Nauvoo's economy. Lots of important businesses had to close down and liquidate their assets rapidly, causing many to leave.

Usually people say it was so they could scout ahead and plant crops, but even that defies reason. How do you think Emma and others stayed in Nauvoo after BY and hang left? They would have been easy pickings for the supposed mobs.

Emma stayed and wasn't harassed because Nauvoo was a ghost town by the time everyone else left. There was no reason for them to attack one small family in a small, dead frontier town. Especially with more important issues (cough Civil War cough) looming on the horizon. Emma's family was small potatoes compared to bringing down the Church in Utah, which the US Government tried to do very hard.

Seriously, I'm sorry to break the news to you like this. If you want chapter and verse, I can provide them. And with legit sources, like from BYU about the Nauvoo temple, etc.

I'm sorry that you're apparently a total ignoramus when it comes to history and scripture. Like I just did, I'd be happy to give you more scriptures and history with chapter, verse, page number, etc. But you really seem to be in need of much more serious help than I'm able to offer you here, as you seem to lack a basic grasp on scriptural and historical fundamentals.

Very inelegantly put. Unfortunately, I am not the ignorant one. The temple only reached about 80% completion.

https://archives.lib.byu.edu/agents/cor ... ities/1021

Nauvoo Temple (Nauvoo, Ill. : 1841-1850)
“The Nauvoo Temple (1841-1850), in Nauvoo, Illinois was the second temple built by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Never fully finished, it was set on fire by arsonists in 1848, and the building was destroyed by 1850.” (BYU Library – Special Collections: Nauvoo Temple)[/quote]

You also get the scriptures totally wrong about blood sacrifice, the Atonement, and covenants. You seem to replace truth with B.Young's perverted blood atonement. Do you also buy into BY's racism as well and think that Cain's curse was black skin?

Perhaps you would tell me why...
the purpose(s) of the Nauvoo Temple?
were those purposes achieved?
why Zion wasn't built by the early restoration Church?

[stormcloak]

You also get the scriptures totally wrong about blood sacrifice, the Atonement, and covenants. You seem to replace truth with B.Young's perverted blood atonement. Do you also buy into BY's racism as well and think that Cain's curse was black skin?

Typical Marxist tactic. Start losing the argument—threaten to call the opposition a racist. Works like a charm

[ransomme]

.

There is truly only one thing that we have that we may place on the altar, our will. Nothing else is ours.

Perhaps not. But nevertheless, God fulfilled the Everlasting Covenant to Enoch with Noah upon the Flood's consummation. I guess the nuking of Sodom and Gomorrah was technically not a "Blood" Covenant either, nor was the eradication of the Nephite cities before Christ's condescension among the Nephites, but apparently God works however is necessary to cleanse the earth for the fulfillment of His Covenants.

It was not fulfilled:
JST Genesis 9
21 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant, which I made unto thy father Enoch; that, when men should keep all my commandments, Zion should again come on the earth, the city of Enoch which I have caught up unto myself.
22 And this is mine everlasting covenant, that when thy posterity shall embrace the truth, and look upward, then shall Zion look downward, and all the heavens shall shake with gladness, and the earth shall tremble with joy;
23 And the general assembly of the church of the firstborn shall come down out of heaven, and possess the earth, and shall have place until the end come. And this is mine everlasting covenant, which I made with thy father Enoch.

Beyond simply repenting and turning our hearts unto God, according to the Lectures on Faith, we must offer the entire essence of our very being and lives if necessary unto Him, or else we cannot expect Eternal Life. This is why Joseph Smith's death signifies much more than merely an "avoidable crime." Indeed, his death was avoidable, and if it had not been for the insistence of false friends, he would not have returned to Nauvoo and been arrested. But his final days were a witness to this very sacrifice unto God of which I have just spoken, and were emblematic of the message of his entire life.

Offering a broken heart and contrite spirit is way "beyond simply repenting". I am speaking about what the scriptures actually mean, not what we are taught in Sunday school, or Church manuals. We need to realize that we are not our own, that the Master and Redeemer purchased us with His blood, so that rather than being bonded as slaves to sin, we may be bonded as slaves to Him. We must submit. We must receive a new heart and a new spirit. We must be born again and become one with Jesus as He is one with the Father.

Of course, there is so much more to it than this. But these things go hand in hand: Torah, the Everlasting Covenant given to Enoch, etc. We must become Firstborn, Kings and Queens of Israel. Zion. Not just for the Day of the Lord but for our own inheritance, to become joint heirs with Jesus as bearers of His name, as His sons and daughters.

[ransomme]

You also get the scriptures totally wrong about blood sacrifice, the Atonement, and covenants. You seem to replace truth with B.Young's perverted blood atonement. Do you also buy into BY's racism as well and think that Cain's curse was black skin?

Typical Marxist tactic. Start losing the argument—threaten to call the opposition a racist. Works like a charm

I didn't threaten racism. HAHA! And Luke admits to these things. So Luke, why don't you explain to him why Cain's curse and BY's priesthood ban aren't racist as you believe? Meanwhile, I'll take your avoidance as affirmation. Very sad that you see your fellow man like that and misread the scriptures on that note too.

You are avoiding the blatant errancy in what you have presented, such as the Nauvoo Temple completion, blood atonement, the Everlasting Covenant given to Enoch and Noah, JT's watch, why BY really left Nauvoo when he did, etc.

1843 - https://hemlockknots.com/monogamy-polygamy-timeline/
August 5 - Joseph Smith’s original journal entry reads “Walked up and down the street with Scribe and gave instructions to try those who were preaching, teaching, or practicing the doctrine of plurality of wives on this Law. Joseph forbids it and the practice thereof. No man shall have but one wife.” This journal entry was later revised twice by Willard Richards and his team of historians to condone polygamy
November 2 – Brigham Young marries Augusta Adams Cobb in secret as his 2nd plural wife (while she was still married to Henry Cobb). Brigham Young had previously met Augusta during one of his several recurring missions to New England, one of which he requested to travel alone, instead of “two-by-two” as commanded. Augusta abandoned her husband (who didn’t file a divorce decree until 1847) and 5 children and buried a 5-month old infant named Brigham shortly after arriving in Nauvoo, who had died on the journey (Nauvoo Neighbor November 8, 1843). He later would marry her son’s ex-wife Mary Van Cott in 1868 when he was 66 years old.

JS Journal on polygamy 08.05.1843.JPG (196.48 KiB) Viewed 193 times

[Luke]

So Luke, why don't you explain to him why Cain's curse and BY's priesthood ban aren't racism as you believe?

You're the one making the claim that it's racist, the burden of proof is upon you.

Gentiles received a curse, Jews received a curse, the Lamanites received a curse, the Israelites received a curse, the LDS received a curse...

God curses groups. That's a fact. Get over it if you can.

[ransomme]

So Luke, why don't you explain to him why Cain's curse and BY's priesthood ban aren't racism as you believe?

You're the one making the claim that it's racist, the burden of proof is upon you.

Gentiles received a curse, Jews received a curse, the Lamanites received a curse, the Israelites received a curse, the LDS received a curse...

God curses groups. That's a fact. Get over it if you can.

It's not even how the scriptures read, so the burden is yours to justify. Cain's curse is clearly on the ground/land. In fact, that was the pattern: viewtopic.php?p=1327699#p1327699

Cain's curse nor his mark was black skin. Read the Text:

The curse of Cain, Lamech and the people of Canaan for Shedding Innocent Blood (SIB) + Secret Combinations (SC)/"works of darkness" (yielded) > a Curse on the earth/land:
Cain + SIB & SC --> "be cursed from the earth...When thou tillest the ground it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength." (Moses 5:36-37)
Lamech + SIB & SC --> "God cursed the earth with a sore curse" (Moses 5:56)
People of Canaan + SIB & SC --> "the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever" (Moses 7:8)

IDK why everyone gets so confused on this issue.

Now the pre-flood people of Canaan let's see what happened to them after the curse, which was upon the land:

Moses 7:8 For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people.

It reads that "a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan"...on the children, not even upon the doers of the deed which brought the curse. And not even their skin became black per se. Although if the land was barren and hot so conceivably their skin would become darker, but it doesn't change their race to negroid. And the "blackness" was not even specifically their skin. Their "blackness" could be in their countenances, in their culture, etc.

And the pre-flood people have nothing to do with Ham's post-flood son Canaan who was cursed for being an illegitimate son of Ham and Noah's wife.

Also, it should be pointed out that Ham's son Canaan had nothing to do with Egypt. Canaan settled in the Levant and Egypt was a different line from Ham. Remember that Pharaoh was from the posterity of the "woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the daughter of Egyptus, which in the Chaldean signifies Egypt, which signifies that which is forbidden;" (Abr. 1:23)

So the question is what curse was in Egypt?
Abr. 1:24 When this woman discovered the land it was under water, who afterward settled her sons in it; and thus, from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land.

Perhaps it comes from the pre-flood people of Canaan, but also notice that the curse is said to be "in the land" and not on the people.

[Alexander]

"If people like Brigham and others were doing illicit things such as the Higbees and Bennett, Joseph would have known and done something about it"

My favorite attribute of Joseph was his omniscience... Apparently Joseph knew every minute detail of every single persons' lives in Kirtland and Nauvoo. Nothing was hid from Joseph; it was laid out entirely before him; he knew EVERYTHING.

Well, I think it's reasonable to believe that Joseph would have known something if Brigham were involved the whole Bennett scandal it in a major way. After all, he uncovered virtually dozens of others involved. Surely Brigham wasn't that good at hiding if you guys—180 years later mind you—can figure out all his dirty little secrets

Ok, so let's presume he knew something. Then it's reasonable to say Joseph was in motion to uncloak and depose of the bastards who effectuated in the shadows, and it was Joseph's murder that reprieved them of such mortifying exhibition.

Here's a nice little quote from Sidney Rigdon's son about it (FYI, Sidney Rigdon and Brigham Young weren't friends post-1844—not sure if you know that because historical illiteracy seems to be the norm around here these days):

As to the truth of the doctrine of polygamy being introduced by the Prophet Joseph Smith, deponent [i.e., John W. Rigdon, son of Sidney Rigdon] further says: Joseph Smith was absolute so far as spiritual matters were concerned, and no man would have dared to introduce the doctrine of polygamy or any other new doctrine into the "Mormon" Church at the city of Nauvoo during the years 1843 and 1844, or at any other place or time, without first obtaining Joseph Smith's consent. If anyone had dared to have done such a thing he would have been brought before the High Council and tried, and if proven against him, he would have been excommunicated from the Church, and that would have ended polygamy forever, and would also have ended the man who had dared to introduce such a doctrine without the consent of the Prophet Joseph.

(Affidavit of John W. Rigdon, as printed in Blood Atonement and the Origin of Plural Marriage, Correspondence between Elder Joseph F. Smith, Jr. of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Mr. Richard C. Evans Second Counselor in the Presidency of the "Reorganized" Church (Independence, Jackson County, Missouri: Zion's Printing and Publishing Company, 1905), p. 83; emphasis added)

"Here's a gormless sentiment from decades after the fact to tantalize your mind"

nice

Cool-looking "black sun" in your avatar there by the way... so now you have me curious: do you bash on Brigham Young for being a "racist" as well as a "dreaded polygamist"?... while donning a symbol from the Third Reich? If so, I must ask, "Oh consistency, where art thou?"

Guess you better call the ADL

Typical Marxist tactic. Start losing the argument—threaten to call the opposition a racist. Works like a charm

[BringerOfJoy]

The Nauvoo Temple dilemma: Did it get done (in the time and manner it was supposed to) or did it not is easy to resolve. Section 124 is the answer. Did the saints get moved out of their place? Did they get scattered? Did they have one hell of a bad time for the next few years? If indeed the LDS did what the Lord wanted them to do, then God is unjust and cursed them unnecessarily.But it definitely blows a hole in the whole, "Blessed, Holy, Pioneers" narrative. Yeah, I have a couple of ancestors that were there also. It sucked to be them. It's interesting that several of the daughters and sons of my original pioneer family married outside of the church (which wasn't easy to do at that time, but great grandpa and a couple of his friends were freighters who brought goods out west from St. Joseph) and they beat a path out of Utah as fast as they could, just outside of Brigham's reach.

[stormcloak]

Meanwhile, I'll take your avoidance as affirmation. Very sad that you see your fellow man like that and misread the scriptures on that note too.

You can take my "avoidance" however you want to sweetheart

[stormcloak]

Cool-looking "black sun" in your avatar there by the way... so now you have me curious: do you bash on Brigham Young for being a "racist" as well as a "dreaded polygamist"?... while donning a symbol from the Third Reich? If so, I must ask, "Oh consistency, where art thou?"

Guess you better call the ADL

Nah, don't worry, your secret is safe with me . I wouldn't call the ADL if my life depended on it . They're the most corrupt organization in America, aside from the FBI. I don't actually care what symbols you put in your avatar, I'm just wondering if you're really enough of a hypocrite to be on the same outrage-bandwagon as ransomme about Brigham's "racism" and yet still have a liking for a certain moustached man.

[larsenb]

The Mormon equivalent of the Warren commission.

Justin Griffen is pretty obscure and very very few have actually seen his films...

So why assemble a "panel of experts" to try to "debunk" and declare "case closed"?...looks like someone might be over the target...and that has some people frightened.

Case closed??...where have we heard that before? Oh that's right...Ensign Peak Advisors and the SEC.

When I hear "debunked" I am always skeptical...same for "case closed". That's what illegitimate leftists "fact checkers" say when they want to get the dog off the scent. Remember what such "fact checkers" said during covid????

This case cannot be closed... because NOBODY alive today can investigate an undisturbed crime scene and interview eyewitnesses. We can only have competing theories as to what happened...based on reconstruction of events, historical statements and historical background.

If this panel wanted to be intellectually honest, they would say...this is our theory...we DON'T know...and we welcome rebuttal...that's what Justin has said all along.

The point about the "theory" vs "case closed" is well taken.

It would remain for me, however, to dip into what Griffen has to say about his findings and what the videos of the OP have to say and weight their relative merits. Not having done that yet, I still feel that the claim of Willard Richards and John Taylor being directly involved in the murders, a very far country to travel to or a very high mountain to climb.

On the face of it, it comes across as ridiculous . . . . to me.

It does sound ridiculous based on what we have been taught and believe...but if you watch the WKJS...it becomes evident that the two eyewitness accounts (Taylor and Richards) are simply impossible and even contradict each other...so then you have to start asking questions...what did most likely happen given the evidence we do have.

Further Taylor and Richard’s were supposed to be body guards...Richard’s wasn't even shot...and the two people they were supposed to be protecting end up dead...worst bodyguards ever.

Also, if the mob gunned down Joseph and Hyrum...and Taylor and Richard’s witnessed the killings, and could identify the killers...why leave Taylor and Richard’s alive??

Many questions to consider when looking at this puzzle.

How could Taylor and Richards be regarded as body guards? I'm not aware that either of them had guns. What is your evidence for this assertion?

And there were a whole slew of people who later joined the Smiths in the Carthage Jail besides Willard Richards and John Taylor, to include: John Solomon Fulmer, John P. Greene, Stephen Markham, Dan Jones, Dr. Southwick, and Lorenzo D. Wasson (Nauvoo Council members?). Fulmer also had brought a gun in which he apparently gave to JS.

On the morning of the martyrdom, Cyrus Wheelock, got permission to visit the group, and he smuggled in the pepper box hand gun which he gave to JS, who then gave the gun he had received from Fulmer to his brother Hyrum (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Joseph_Smith )

Fulmer said that most of those with the Smiths were given their freedom after the group was able to come up with sufficient bail. Fulmer was sent on an errand the morning of the 27th to Nauvoo to procure witnesses, but was not let back in the jail after he returned (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_S._Fullmer ).

From what little I’ve read so far, it’s not clear why Taylor, Richards and Fulmer remained in Carthage Jail with the Smiths. Perhaps it was just a matter of not being able to come up with the required bail.

The apparent fact that the Taylor/Richards accounts may differ is most likely attributed to memory and perspective. Did they ever sit down an collaborate about these differences? Probably not.

And Taylor allegedly knocking down guns pointing through the door, does sound like he was trying to defend the group; and being shot 4 times seems to show that he paid for it. So you think Hyrum shot Taylor, an apparently unarmed man, with Fulmer’s gun that JS had given him? What a stretch that is.

There is a real danger in ramping up assumptions to support a given hypothesis one has bought into. It’s called pushing the data. See my earlier comments on small caliber guns, and the location of Hyrum's alleged blood spot.

[ransomme]

Meanwhile, I'll take your avoidance as affirmation. Very sad that you see your fellow man like that and misread the scriptures on that note too.

You can take my "avoidance" however you want to sweetheart

that is aggressive and sexual, and probably telling. Bring on polygamy and prejudice as Stormcloak implies.

[stormcloak]

that is aggressive and sexual, and probably telling. Bring on polygamy and prejudice as Stormcloak implies.

ROFL

Don't flatter yourself. I don't flirt with Marxists

[ransomme]

Cool-looking "black sun" in your avatar there by the way... so now you have me curious: do you bash on Brigham Young for being a "racist" as well as a "dreaded polygamist"?... while donning a symbol from the Third Reich? If so, I must ask, "Oh consistency, where art thou?"

Guess you better call the ADL

Nah, don't worry, your secret is safe with me . I wouldn't call the ADL if my life depended on it . They're the most corrupt organization in America, aside from the FBI. I don't actually care what symbols you put in your avatar, I'm just wondering if you're really enough of a hypocrite to be on the same outrage-bandwagon as ransomme about Brigham's "racism" and yet still have a liking for a certain moustached man.

It's not outrage, it's sadness. But you seem to confirm your alignment with BY's racist policy and beliefs about blacks. I don't think that makes you a racist, just misled with your mind being darkened.

[stormcloak]

It's not outrage, it's sadness. But you seem to confirm your alignment with BY's racist policy and beliefs about blacks. I don't think that makes you a racist, just misled with your mind being darkened.

Sadness? But you literally started off your tirade by laughing, in all capital letters: "HAHA!"

Doesn't sound like you were sad to me

[ransomme]

that is aggressive and sexual, and probably telling. Bring on polygamy and prejudice as Stormcloak implies.

ROFL

Don't flatter yourself. I don't flirt with Marxists

Godwin's rule has been triggered. You forfeit.

And me, a Marxist, that's a good one.

[ransomme]

It's not outrage, it's sadness. But you seem to confirm your alignment with BY's racist policy and beliefs about blacks. I don't think that makes you a racist, just misled with your mind being darkened.

Sadness? But you literally started off your tirade by laughing, in all capital letters: "HAHA!"

Doesn't sound like you were sad to me

They both bring me to tears. And it's the best way to cope. True story a very dear friend of mine passed last week and we tearily laughed all the way to the end.