Precepts of men- help me identify them

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Teancum1
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Re: Precepts of men- help me identify them

Post by Teancum1 »

Pahoran wrote: March 26th, 2023, 9:18 pm Emphasizing the wrong characteristic or principle at the wrong time. For example,

Instead of emphasizing standing for truth, righteousness, courage in the face of LGBT cultural onslaught, we emphasize kindness, acceptance, and tolerance.

Instead of emphasizing word of wisdom, free agency and general health principles during a pandemic we say that to show love we wear masks and get vaccinated, and follow the prophet.

Those are just a couple, but this technique is hard to deal with because of the appeals to some truth, which could confuse some people.
Great points. Especially with regards to the legalistic approach to same sex issues the corporate church has taken. This LGBTQ agenda is not looking for kindness or tolerance- they are looking to destroy the family and God. The unintended consequences of the church approach will drive youth and young children into these peoples hands. Once they have a foot in the door then it is all over for God ordained marriage. It is part of Satans plan to destroy the family and what better way than to normalize same sex marriage and transgender ideology.
The cry will be that any speech or action that seeks to limit perverse behavior is intolerance and hate speech and must be repented of or prosecuted. The leadership knows this. They have capitulated.

silverado
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Re: Precepts of men- help me identify them

Post by silverado »

Teancum1 wrote: March 26th, 2023, 9:49 pm
silverado wrote: March 26th, 2023, 2:09 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: March 26th, 2023, 8:57 am "The word of wisdom is now a commandment from the Lord in order to go to the temple/celestial kingdom"
Only certain parts of the Word of Wisdom have to be obeyed, other parts can be ignored.

"Some sins have to be confessed to your bishop before you can be forgiven for them."

It seems I’ve read that different “small p” prophets emphasized different elements within the WoW at different times in history. I know that wine is what the Savior drank and it seems to have some symbolic significance. Why have we ceased using wine? Was it due to the churches desire to get in good graces with the prohibition movement?

I know the large P Prophet Joseph drank mild barley drinks and this was not a sin. Why have we become so insistent on establishing our version of 613 commandments in our day?

I know the vast majority of members do not live the Word of Wisdom as they are significantly obese or overweight, consume loads of sugary caffeinated drinks, eat junk food and have a host of medical problems due to this. And yet, these same people fill the temples?

The Word of Wisdom is not a commandment and church leadership has turned it into one.
Not a commandment, that became a commandment, that people obey but don't really obey.

Lemarque
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Re: Precepts of men- help me identify them

Post by Lemarque »

I think most things regarding physical appearance are precepts of men, like defining modesty by sleeve thickness, how many piercings, tattoos, etc.

The Lord cares where our hearts are, I don't think he's too concerned about if I wear a shirt while working in the yard.

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Re: Precepts of men- help me identify them

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Lemarque wrote: March 27th, 2023, 11:40 am I think most things regarding physical appearance are precepts of men, like defining modesty by sleeve thickness, how many piercings, tattoos, etc.

The Lord cares where our hearts are, I don't think he's too concerned about if I wear a shirt while working in the yard.
I fully believe there was a reason Adam and Eve were given coats of skins. The BoM also gives us sufficient insights into the matter. The righteous Nephites wore clothing that covered their bodies. The Lamanites did not.

I can't see the people in Zion walking around in thong bikinis or mudflaps.

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HereWeGo
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Re: Precepts of men- help me identify them

Post by HereWeGo »

Pahoran wrote: March 26th, 2023, 9:08 pm I don't know if you call this a precept of men or just a misinterpretation of scripture. But recently, I did see in a conference talk that it seemed to teach that the meaning of the parable of the wheat and the tares is that the wheat are church members, and the tares are anyone outside of the church.

But the parable states that an enemy came by night and sowed the tares among the wheat. This seems to indicate that the tares are servants of Satan amongst the wheat (true disciples), who have an intentional mission to destroy the wheat. The wheat are the "children of the kingdom." The correct interpretation on this parable seems very important because if you think the tares are just people that are outside the church, those people are easy to identify and watch out for. However, it seems much more dangerous if the parable is actually saying that there are servants of Satan, who look like disciples of Christ within the church, and they are on a mission to destroy the true followers.
I see wheat and tares a bit differently. I think tares are those who follow the precepts of men.

I think the church members under Joseph were predominantly wheat. Over the next almost 200 years, more and more tares came into the church (from the enemy) and took over the church. Their teachings (precepts of men) have caused those that follow the teachings to become tares. They follow the precepts of men rather than only the teachings of the Savior. The church is now largely tares. The scriptures teach that the wheat will be plucked out of the tares and saved. Members who have woken up to the precepts of men being taught and are rejecting them are being plucked out from among the tares.

This is my belief. I am not interested in getting into a LONG one-on-one debate.

Godislove
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Re: Precepts of men- help me identify them

Post by Godislove »

Lemarque wrote: March 27th, 2023, 11:40 am I think most things regarding physical appearance are precepts of men, like defining modesty by sleeve thickness, how many piercings, tattoos, etc.

The Lord cares where our hearts are, I don't think he's too concerned about if I wear a shirt while working in the yard.
I just hope you are a man. 😂

Lemarque
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Re: Precepts of men- help me identify them

Post by Lemarque »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: March 27th, 2023, 11:46 am
Lemarque wrote: March 27th, 2023, 11:40 am I think most things regarding physical appearance are precepts of men, like defining modesty by sleeve thickness, how many piercings, tattoos, etc.

The Lord cares where our hearts are, I don't think he's too concerned about if I wear a shirt while working in the yard.
I fully believe there was a reason Adam and Eve were given coats of skins. The BoM also gives us sufficient insights into the matter. The righteous Nephites wore clothing that covered their bodies. The Lamanites did not.

I can't see the people in Zion walking around in thong bikinis or mudflaps.
Well, to paraphrase Elder Holland: "Then it wouldn't be Zion for me!"

Joking aside, I'm not saying that modesty isn't something from God. I'm saying the very specific guidelines of sleeve thickness and length and things like that are precepts of men. D&C says to let our garments be plain. I think that's good to follow.

What Book of Mormon scripture say the Nephites wore clothing that covered their bodies? The scriptures I see about clothing just say something like "we did clothe our nakedness." Maybe that's what you are referring to.

It's interesting that there are so many references to costly apparel. I don't think I can remember a time a church leader has spoken out against costly apparel.

Teancum1
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Re: Precepts of men- help me identify them

Post by Teancum1 »

Godislove wrote: March 27th, 2023, 12:30 pm
Lemarque wrote: March 27th, 2023, 11:40 am I think most things regarding physical appearance are precepts of men, like defining modesty by sleeve thickness, how many piercings, tattoos, etc.

The Lord cares where our hearts are, I don't think he's too concerned about if I wear a shirt while working in the yard.
😂🤣
I just hope you are a man. 😂

simpleton
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Re: Precepts of men- help me identify them

Post by simpleton »

HereWeGo wrote: March 27th, 2023, 12:23 pm
Pahoran wrote: March 26th, 2023, 9:08 pm I don't know if you call this a precept of men or just a misinterpretation of scripture. But recently, I did see in a conference talk that it seemed to teach that the meaning of the parable of the wheat and the tares is that the wheat are church members, and the tares are anyone outside of the church.

But the parable states that an enemy came by night and sowed the tares among the wheat. This seems to indicate that the tares are servants of Satan amongst the wheat (true disciples), who have an intentional mission to destroy the wheat. The wheat are the "children of the kingdom." The correct interpretation on this parable seems very important because if you think the tares are just people that are outside the church, those people are easy to identify and watch out for. However, it seems much more dangerous if the parable is actually saying that there are servants of Satan, who look like disciples of Christ within the church, and they are on a mission to destroy the true followers.
I see wheat and tares a bit differently. I think tares are those who follow the precepts of men.

I think the church members under Joseph were predominantly wheat. Over the next almost 200 years, more and more tares came into the church (from the enemy) and took over the church. Their teachings (precepts of men) have caused those that follow the teachings to become tares. They follow the precepts of men rather than only the teachings of the Savior. The church is now largely tares. The scriptures teach that the wheat will be plucked out of the tares and saved. Members who have woken up to the precepts of men being taught and are rejecting them are being plucked out from among the tares.

This is my belief. I am not interested in getting into a LONG one-on-one debate.
I think you are totally right. ( I kept it short)

Hosh
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Re: Precepts of men- help me identify them

Post by Hosh »

Teancum1 wrote: March 26th, 2023, 7:52 am
BigT wrote: March 25th, 2023, 11:06 am
Godislove wrote: March 25th, 2023, 9:38 am I think one way to identify the falsehoods is to become very familiar with what's written in the scriptures.
This. But if you've only listened to LDS Inc.'s version of the scriptures, you're still stuck in the precepts of men and traditions of the fathers.

I just looked and the first entry into my journal regarding being "awaken" was August 4, 2020, but I was a month or 2 into by then. Seems longer.

For me, I needed guides to see through my "programming" (teachings of man). I can't recall the steps of my journey now but I read a bunch of Rock Waterman's posts, the anonymous bishop, here on LDSFF, and at some point One Who is Watching. Reluctant Watchman has some good articles.

But I settled on Watcher. I looked up every scripture quoted (regardless of whether the text was copied into the post) and every reference, both in his posts as well as his book. At first I did it because I thought he was not being truthful. Most of the references can still be found, but some are gone. They can be found elsewhere, usually. Joseph in the Gap is good for a condensed version of Wacther's book. (I'm trying to get my wife to read it as she'd never make it though Watcher's book.)

After almost a year of intense study, when I read the scriptures, especially in the D&C, I feel I know what's being said and why. It's wonderful. Before when I read the D&C my cog dis would cause me to skip over the stuff I didn't understand, which was most.

And, of course, tell the Lord you want to know the truth, as much as He thinks you need. No more relying on the arm of flesh. Rely on the arm of God.
Great post. This is where I wanted to go with the thread. What precepts have we (disaffected LDS and exLDS faith tradition) been taught over the pulpit and accepted.
1. Prophets cannot lead us astray.
2. The Melchizedek priesthood is on the earth in the LDS church.
3. Temple work/ endowment as we know it is from God.
4. The Book of Mormon is what Isaiah was writing about in Isaiah 29:11-12
5. Polygamy is the New and Everlasting Covenant
6. Blacks are the seed of Cain and should not have the priesthood.
7. The “covenant path” is the fulness of the gospel spoken of in the Book of Mormon.
8. We should work with the UN and other government agencies to “help “ mankind
9. Because the Book of Mormon is true then Joseph Smith was a Prophet. And because Joseph was a Prophet then the prophets/seers and revelators today are true Prophets of equal or greater importance than Joseph or Moses, etc.
10. Tithing is to be invested and fast offering and other offerings( members time and other resources) are to care for the poor.
11. The church must utilize the rich, powerful and well connected to get Gods work done on the earth.
12. The “weak things” spoken of in the scriptures are actually a group of prominent business men, lawyers , well known doctors and other wealthy and well educated elites who control vast wealth.
13. Correlation is vital to moving Gods work forward- individuals within wards and stakes couldn’t possibly receive inspiration to guide them how to administer the local church- we must do it the way SLC deems necessary.
14. The Gentiles in the Book of Mormon are NOT the LDS gentiles
15. The Lord wouldn’t allow His church to go astray.
16. The kingdom of God on the earth is the church.

So what other “precepts of men” have we embraced and never considered we were wrong?
The "covenant path" is the straight and narrow path.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Precepts of men- help me identify them

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

The "iron rod" is what we hear/feel from these PSRs.

The world (not us) is the great and spacious building.

Pahoran
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Re: Precepts of men- help me identify them

Post by Pahoran »

HereWeGo wrote: March 27th, 2023, 12:23 pm
Pahoran wrote: March 26th, 2023, 9:08 pm I don't know if you call this a precept of men or just a misinterpretation of scripture. But recently, I did see in a conference talk that it seemed to teach that the meaning of the parable of the wheat and the tares is that the wheat are church members, and the tares are anyone outside of the church.

But the parable states that an enemy came by night and sowed the tares among the wheat. This seems to indicate that the tares are servants of Satan amongst the wheat (true disciples), who have an intentional mission to destroy the wheat. The wheat are the "children of the kingdom." The correct interpretation on this parable seems very important because if you think the tares are just people that are outside the church, those people are easy to identify and watch out for. However, it seems much more dangerous if the parable is actually saying that there are servants of Satan, who look like disciples of Christ within the church, and they are on a mission to destroy the true followers.
I see wheat and tares a bit differently. I think tares are those who follow the precepts of men.

I think the church members under Joseph were predominantly wheat. Over the next almost 200 years, more and more tares came into the church (from the enemy) and took over the church. Their teachings (precepts of men) have caused those that follow the teachings to become tares. They follow the precepts of men rather than only the teachings of the Savior. The church is now largely tares. The scriptures teach that the wheat will be plucked out of the tares and saved. Members who have woken up to the precepts of men being taught and are rejecting them are being plucked out from among the tares.

This is my belief. I am not interested in getting into a LONG one-on-one debate.
I think we agree. I think we both recognize that the original tares were intentionally sown by Lucifer among the wheat and then slowly began to overtake the wheat through their influence and more tares were created. And, perhaps the later tares were deceived, not knowing which master they are serving; whereas, the original tares knew who they were serving. I guess what I am trying to say, I could see some true servants of satan among the tares, whereas the vast majority of tares are like you said, just following the precepts of men, unknowingly to their demise.

Looking at it this way, where there are some tares that actually are actively seeking to destroy the church and are following Satan, this adds a whole other dimension to the parable. It adds the dimension of recognizing that secret combinations and secret societies that seek destruction could play a prominent role in the destruction of true faith and church. We can all agree that if there are members and church leaders that are secretly, actively working together in a coordinated fashion in an objective that is not consistent with the core gospel, this poses a major problem, a much bigger problem than members that just happen to start believing in precepts of men, but are not being coordinated and controlled per se.

It's kind of like playing a game of telephone. If you have a group of people who are honestly all trying their best to relay the correct message but mess it up due to human error, that is much different than playing a game of telephone where some of the people are purposely and continuously trying to corrupt the message for their own benefit to gain control over the others.

Pahoran
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Re: Precepts of men- help me identify them

Post by Pahoran »

Teancum1 wrote: March 26th, 2023, 9:56 pm
Pahoran wrote: March 26th, 2023, 9:18 pm Emphasizing the wrong characteristic or principle at the wrong time. For example,

Instead of emphasizing standing for truth, righteousness, courage in the face of LGBT cultural onslaught, we emphasize kindness, acceptance, and tolerance.

Instead of emphasizing word of wisdom, free agency and general health principles during a pandemic we say that to show love we wear masks and get vaccinated, and follow the prophet.

Those are just a couple, but this technique is hard to deal with because of the appeals to some truth, which could confuse some people.
Great points. Especially with regards to the legalistic approach to same sex issues the corporate church has taken. This LGBTQ agenda is not looking for kindness or tolerance- they are looking to destroy the family and God. The unintended consequences of the church approach will drive youth and young children into these peoples hands. Once they have a foot in the door then it is all over for God ordained marriage. It is part of Satans plan to destroy the family and what better way than to normalize same sex marriage and transgender ideology.
The cry will be that any speech or action that seeks to limit perverse behavior is intolerance and hate speech and must be repented of or prosecuted. The leadership knows this. They have capitulated.
Yes - it's kind of like you have to be as wise as serpents and identify your enemy. Then you must accept that your enemy is seeking your destruction. Then you have to realize that your enemy does not play by your rules -he will lie, cheat, deceive, kill and do whatever it takes to destroy you.

Once you have done this, the path forward is obvious - and it is not seeking for common ground and showing goodwill to your enemy and entering into alliances with your enemy. Instead, it is more about keeping your covenant to stand as a witness of Christ for truth and righteousness and to protect your family.

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Ymarsakar
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Re: Precepts of men- help me identify them

Post by Ymarsakar »

Pahoran, you are quite close to graduating, my unknown cousin.

To Teancum, when you write "leadership", I get the feeling from the Holy Spirit that you all are expected to be the leaders. How does this work in the LDS hierarchy? Well, it doesn't since your beliefs run counter to "affirming the LDS prophet doctrines" so to speak.

Do you see how this is God giving you all an opportunity? Become the leaders that you are seeking. Does that mean forsaking the faith? No. Does that mean rising up against the LDS brethren? Not necessarily.

Free will means you are responsible for choosing.

So Choose

Any choice is better than no choice, although some are more preferred by the Divine Heavens. Where you end up, you decide. Nor will I provide the "correct answer".

Pahoran, a game of Werewolf, Mafia, or Amongst Us (Pc) may be a useful way to refer to the game.

In our world, and churches, some are full of truth and others have some truth. And in our families, some are like Cain and others like Able. In our society, some are werewolves and some are in the mafia.

Consider how this game is played. If the villagers group up and decide some target is the werewolf, what if they are wrong? This is the entire Earth game almost, and it was implemented on purpose.

Herewe, those are very perceptive and even intuitive conclusions. They are accurate for the most part. Just keep in mind that other people are not your "enemies". They were placed in this position on purpose, much like Satan and God agreeing to test Job. Blaming "other people" won't pass this test.

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ransomme
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Re: Precepts of men- help me identify them

Post by ransomme »

Ymarsakar wrote: April 9th, 2023, 5:25 pm Pahoran, you are quite close to graduating, my unknown cousin.

To Teancum, when you write "leadership", I get the feeling from the Holy Spirit that you all are expected to be the leaders. How does this work in the LDS hierarchy? Well, it doesn't since your beliefs run counter to "affirming the LDS prophet doctrines" so to speak.

Do you see how this is God giving you all an opportunity? Become the leaders that you are seeking. Does that mean forsaking the faith? No. Does that mean rising up against the LDS brethren? Not necessarily.

Free will means you are responsible for choosing.

So Choose

Any choice is better than no choice, although some are more preferred by the Divine Heavens. Where you end up, you decide. Nor will I provide the "correct answer".

Pahoran, a game of Werewolf, Mafia, or Amongst Us (Pc) may be a useful way to refer to the game.

In our world, and churches, some are full of truth and others have some truth. And in our families, some are like Cain and others like Able. In our society, some are werewolves and some are in the mafia.

Consider how this game is played. If the villagers group up and decide some target is the werewolf, what if they are wrong? This is the entire Earth game almost, and it was implemented on purpose.

Herewe, those are very perceptive and even intuitive conclusions. They are accurate for the most part. Just keep in mind that other people are not your "enemies". They were placed in this position on purpose, much like Satan and God agreeing to test Job. Blaming "other people" won't pass this test.
I don't think we are supposed to obey man (PSR or not), that is the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the great and spacious building, looking at the snakes in the ground, etc. We are to listen to the counsel of God, heed the Spirit, to follow the Word.

God's way is the wild west, live or die by the Spirit
Joseph Smith’s words given in a sermon he gave to the Relief Society in Nauvoo. It is based on Ezekiel chapter 14, where he said:
“the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish Church — that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls — applied it to the present state [1842] of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints — said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall — that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves...” (TPJS p. 238).

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Ymarsakar
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Re: Precepts of men- help me identify them

Post by Ymarsakar »

"I don't think we are supposed to obey man (PSR or not), that is the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the great and spacious building, looking at the snakes in the ground, etc. We are to listen to the counsel of God, heed the Spirit, to follow the Word."

To ransom, yes, and this is carried out in a practical test of 2021 with the waxxines or the 2020 fear of the corona. (God's sun corona)

Did people believe their intuition/faith in Jesus/holy spirit telling them how to be safe? Or did they believe in the words of manmade churches and institutions/experts?

It is easy for people to say they will obey their own Heart and Spirit. But how far will they go while being tested as Job? How far they go is how high they score.

I in no fashion condone the LDS proclamation about waxxines. I work with pregnant women. I know what the mrna does to children and pregnant women. Yet at the same time, I respect Satan's power and cleverness, as well as God's mercy and compassion.

What other test would be appropriate for the LDS saints? Then to decide to obey God or to obey their church... a harsh test indeed, but then again Job wasn't a picnic either.

What if God had ordered Nelson to speak against the waxxine and enforced it? This didn't happen. I knew the truth in 2020 February 28th about Corona and waxxine binary toxin hybrid DNA weapons, but I was restrained by Godhead from speaking it to others. Why was that? Because it was to prevent spoilers from interfering with the test. This is humanity's graduation test. Not even I am allowed to spoil it, let alone Nelson. I have a bit of complicated feelings about this. Some sadness but mostly serenity and faith.

If Nelson had spoken out against the waxxine... the saints would have obeyed but would they have passed the test this way? No, because it was not a choice they made on their own. It was not a Job test of their faith so they cannot be rewarded. I knew of two saints and their families who went through this test. They had the LDS President/prophet telling them one thing and the Holy Spirit says the exact opposite.

I did not need to face this particular test, but others did and I empathize with them. THat doesn't mean I told them to get waxed. I told them the truth, or as much as I could tell them given their level.

Perhaps some of the LDS members or saints believed that because they had temple recommendations and work, that they were blessed by God and made exemplary? God's Judgment is not a church's judgment. It cuts through the layers of the body into the heart. To your "true self". I would have taken away the suffering of the saints, if I had been allowed to, but not even my access to power gave me an exemption from God to interfere with the Divine Plan. And that is... a very complicated feeling even now.

"How can I identify them, as I freely admit that for years my cognitive dissonance has clouded my understanding."-T

To T, while I cannot and will not give you a specific answer, as all of that is simply "outside authorities" from your pov, I would recommend meditating and listening to your heart. To the emerald palace inside your heart, breathe life into it and the belly.

And then ask for the truth to be given to you. That is all you need to do and the truth will be given to you in a way that bypasses human power.

Teancum1
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Re: Precepts of men- help me identify them

Post by Teancum1 »

Ymarsakar wrote: April 9th, 2023, 5:53 pm "I don't think we are supposed to obey man (PSR or not), that is the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the great and spacious building, looking at the snakes in the ground, etc. We are to listen to the counsel of God, heed the Spirit, to follow the Word."

To ransom, yes, and this is carried out in a practical test of 2021 with the waxxines or the 2020 fear of the corona. (God's sun corona)

Did people believe their intuition/faith in Jesus/holy spirit telling them how to be safe? Or did they believe in the words of manmade churches and institutions/experts?

It is easy for people to say they will obey their own Heart and Spirit. But how far will they go while being tested as Job? How far they go is how high they score.

I in no fashion condone the LDS proclamation about waxxines. I work with pregnant women. I know what the mrna does to children and pregnant women. Yet at the same time, I respect Satan's power and cleverness, as well as God's mercy and compassion.

What other test would be appropriate for the LDS saints? Then to decide to obey God or to obey their church... a harsh test indeed, but then again Job wasn't a picnic either.

What if God had ordered Nelson to speak against the waxxine and enforced it? This didn't happen. I knew the truth in 2020 February 28th about Corona and waxxine binary toxin hybrid DNA weapons, but I was restrained by Godhead from speaking it to others. Why was that? Because it was to prevent spoilers from interfering with the test. This is humanity's graduation test. Not even I am allowed to spoil it, let alone Nelson. I have a bit of complicated feelings about this. Some sadness but mostly serenity and faith.

If Nelson had spoken out against the waxxine... the saints would have obeyed but would they have passed the test this way? No, because it was not a choice they made on their own. It was not a Job test of their faith so they cannot be rewarded. I knew of two saints and their families who went through this test. They had the LDS President/prophet telling them one thing and the Holy Spirit says the exact opposite.

I did not need to face this particular test, but others did and I empathize with them. THat doesn't mean I told them to get waxed. I told them the truth, or as much as I could tell them given their level.

Perhaps some of the LDS members or saints believed that because they had temple recommendations and work, that they were blessed by God and made exemplary? God's Judgment is not a church's judgment. It cuts through the layers of the body into the heart. To your "true self". I would have taken away the suffering of the saints, if I had been allowed to, but not even my access to power gave me an exemption from God to interfere with the Divine Plan. And that is... a very complicated feeling even now.

"How can I identify them, as I freely admit that for years my cognitive dissonance has clouded my understanding."-T

To T, while I cannot and will not give you a specific answer, as all of that is simply "outside authorities" from your pov, I would recommend meditating and listening to your heart. To the emerald palace inside your heart, breathe life into it and the belly.

And then ask for the truth to be given to you. That is all you need to do and the truth will be given to you in a way that bypasses human power.
My background is the LDS tradition- 50+ years. Only since the pandemic have I been awakened to the awful situation we, believers in Christ/the Book of Mormon/ Joseph Smith.
I fully admit I was likely practicing some sort of idolatry in believing that a prophet could not lead astray. When I refer to leadership, it is to current LDS leadership.
I have rejected that precept of men since March 2020 through pondering and praying, studying and seeking. I believe like the article of faith implies, man will be punished/blessed through their own(individual agency) sins/choices and not through Adam or anyone else’s transgression. I DO NOT TRUST man. I seek to “Trust in the Lord” alone.

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latterdayloco
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Re: Precepts of men- help me identify them

Post by latterdayloco »

That it’s OK to support the LGBT movement and use the symbol of rainbow to signify your support.

Related to this is believing in “hippie” Jesus who loved everyone for who they were and wants us to be fine with “anything goes” as a mantra for life.

That watching certain sporting events is an appropriate Sunday activity.

That being a soldier in war gives you a spiritual get out of jail free card if you end up killing someone.

That the Lord meant anything besides “hot drinks” when he said “hot drinks.” Also, “not by way of commandment.”

That hunting is always acceptable. There are actually quite a few stipulations that the Lord puts on it and will require us to account for animals we have killed.

Just a few off the top of my head as I drift off to sleep…

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Ymarsakar
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Re: Precepts of men- help me identify them

Post by Ymarsakar »

"I fully admit I was likely practicing some sort of idolatry in believing that a prophet could not lead astray."

Our God and Godhead are merciful and compassionate. They will not harshly judge or penalize you for adhering to the traditions of your elders, parents, siblings, and social circle. However, sooner or later a child must graduate school and become a functional member of a greater society. We are at this junction point for humanity, and perhaps not everyone was ready but no child can stay forever a child. This is just life.

While the LDS brethren are more open minded than say the Inquisition some centuries ago, they still have human egos and other issues, like attachment to physical wealth and buildings. Certainly these times are an improvement upon what the Saints experienced in Missouri under the extermination order or when the US federal army was sent to "suppress the Mormon rebels" aka kill them all like Indians. However, in more prosperous times, we simply run into the Cain vs Able issue, where the enemy is no longer outside but more inside our own bodies. And with the mrna, that is literally true so to speak. Churches are in one interpretation, bodies of Christ's disciples, those who wish to become like or as their mentor. A disciple in Eastern tradition is not a "fan or fanatic", not someone who admires the unachievable star from afar. They are called upon to treat their mentors as close family. To work together with their brothers and sisters. You don't worship your brother or sister right forever?

If Jesus/Yeshua/Jeshua is our brother, then how long will we remain in this state where I once asked others if they could do as Jesus did, and they replied, "oh never, I could never". That was a very sad reply to me, but one that they picked up from others perhaps in the LDS faith. By 2020, ready or not, here we go.

So T, you are making great progress, I hope you know that, cousin. Having to challenge your own beliefs, with very little support, is a courageous action, and often times confusing and disheartening. But that is why it is courage, of the heart, that it tests. I personally don't feel any animosity against the LDS brethren or leadership. They go their way and I go mine, and during the time we were together and in harmony, it was great and I achieved much as a result of the LDS traditions passing unto this generation. But eventually, I will grow up and must stand before the Almighty by myself and testify as to my own actions.

"That hunting is always acceptable. There are actually quite a few stipulations that the Lord puts on it and will require us to account for animals we have killed."

I read the Journal of DIscourses, the less edited version of Brigham's speeches and many important Latter Day Saint speeches around 1857 time period. They were quite against the bloodshed of hunting, as many felt that this incited the lust to kill and it just wasn't something good for them spiritually, albeit sometimes necessary. Modern LDS Utah/Mormon culture was a departure from the original teachings (or first generation) from the recent 2016 point of view of mine. I always hoped they would have a chance to choose again and rectify it, since the love of hunting inevitably lead the US of A into warmongering and bombing/killing non combatants overseas. At the same time, I felt it would be too much paternalism if a Church authority tried to regulate hunting. That was before they tried to mandate/regulate waxinations....

silverado
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Re: Precepts of men- help me identify them

Post by silverado »

Ymarsakar wrote: April 10th, 2023, 4:11 am "I fully admit I was likely practicing some sort of idolatry in believing that a prophet could not lead astray."

Our God and Godhead are merciful and compassionate. They will not harshly judge or penalize you for adhering to the traditions of your elders, parents, siblings, and social circle. However, sooner or later a child must graduate school and become a functional member of a greater society. We are at this junction point for humanity, and perhaps not everyone was ready but no child can stay forever a child. This is just life.

While the LDS brethren are more open minded than say the Inquisition some centuries ago, they still have human egos and other issues, like attachment to physical wealth and buildings. Certainly these times are an improvement upon what the Saints experienced in Missouri under the extermination order or when the US federal army was sent to "suppress the Mormon rebels" aka kill them all like Indians. However, in more prosperous times, we simply run into the Cain vs Able issue, where the enemy is no longer outside but more inside our own bodies. And with the mrna, that is literally true so to speak. Churches are in one interpretation, bodies of Christ's disciples, those who wish to become like or as their mentor. A disciple in Eastern tradition is not a "fan or fanatic", not someone who admires the unachievable star from afar. They are called upon to treat their mentors as close family. To work together with their brothers and sisters. You don't worship your brother or sister right forever?

If Jesus/Yeshua/Jeshua is our brother, then how long will we remain in this state where I once asked others if they could do as Jesus did, and they replied, "oh never, I could never". That was a very sad reply to me, but one that they picked up from others perhaps in the LDS faith. By 2020, ready or not, here we go.

So T, you are making great progress, I hope you know that, cousin. Having to challenge your own beliefs, with very little support, is a courageous action, and often times confusing and disheartening. But that is why it is courage, of the heart, that it tests. I personally don't feel any animosity against the LDS brethren or leadership. They go their way and I go mine, and during the time we were together and in harmony, it was great and I achieved much as a result of the LDS traditions passing unto this generation. But eventually, I will grow up and must stand before the Almighty by myself and testify as to my own actions.

"That hunting is always acceptable. There are actually quite a few stipulations that the Lord puts on it and will require us to account for animals we have killed."

I read the Journal of DIscourses, the less edited version of Brigham's speeches and many important Latter Day Saint speeches around 1857 time period. They were quite against the bloodshed of hunting, as many felt that this incited the lust to kill and it just wasn't something good for them spiritually, albeit sometimes necessary. Modern LDS Utah/Mormon culture was a departure from the original teachings (or first generation) from the recent 2016 point of view of mine. I always hoped they would have a chance to choose again and rectify it, since the love of hunting inevitably lead the US of A into warmongering and bombing/killing non combatants overseas. At the same time, I felt it would be too much paternalism if a Church authority tried to regulate hunting. That was before they tried to mandate/regulate waxinations....
I don't believe the church would ever regulate hunting at all, in its present state. It makes money from hunting, killing animals for fun is a business. The wealthy can pay to hunt on its land and ranches.

Teancum1
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Re: Precepts of men- help me identify them

Post by Teancum1 »

Ymarsakar wrote: April 10th, 2023, 4:11 am "I fully admit I was likely practicing some sort of idolatry in believing that a prophet could not lead astray."

Our God and Godhead are merciful and compassionate. They will not harshly judge or penalize you for adhering to the traditions of your elders, parents, siblings, and social circle. However, sooner or later a child must graduate school and become a functional member of a greater society. We are at this junction point for humanity, and perhaps not everyone was ready but no child can stay forever a child. This is just life.

While the LDS brethren are more open minded than say the Inquisition some centuries ago, they still have human egos and other issues, like attachment to physical wealth and buildings. Certainly these times are an improvement upon what the Saints experienced in Missouri under the extermination order or when the US federal army was sent to "suppress the Mormon rebels" aka kill them all like Indians. However, in more prosperous times, we simply run into the Cain vs Able issue, where the enemy is no longer outside but more inside our own bodies. And with the mrna, that is literally true so to speak. Churches are in one interpretation, bodies of Christ's disciples, those who wish to become like or as their mentor. A disciple in Eastern tradition is not a "fan or fanatic", not someone who admires the unachievable star from afar. They are called upon to treat their mentors as close family. To work together with their brothers and sisters. You don't worship your brother or sister right forever?

If Jesus/Yeshua/Jeshua is our brother, then how long will we remain in this state where I once asked others if they could do as Jesus did, and they replied, "oh never, I could never". That was a very sad reply to me, but one that they picked up from others perhaps in the LDS faith. By 2020, ready or not, here we go.

So T, you are making great progress, I hope you know that, cousin. Having to challenge your own beliefs, with very little support, is a courageous action, and often times confusing and disheartening. But that is why it is courage, of the heart, that it tests. I personally don't feel any animosity against the LDS brethren or leadership. They go their way and I go mine, and during the time we were together and in harmony, it was great and I achieved much as a result of the LDS traditions passing unto this generation. But eventually, I will grow up and must stand before the Almighty by myself and testify as to my own actions.

"That hunting is always acceptable. There are actually quite a few stipulations that the Lord puts on it and will require us to account for animals we have killed."

I read the Journal of DIscourses, the less edited version of Brigham's speeches and many important Latter Day Saint speeches around 1857 time period. They were quite against the bloodshed of hunting, as many felt that this incited the lust to kill and it just wasn't something good for them spiritually, albeit sometimes necessary. Modern LDS Utah/Mormon culture was a departure from the original teachings (or first generation) from the recent 2016 point of view of mine. I always hoped they would have a chance to choose again and rectify it, since the love of hunting inevitably lead the US of A into warmongering and bombing/killing non combatants overseas. At the same time, I felt it would be too much paternalism if a Church authority tried to regulate hunting. That was before they tried to mandate/regulate waxinations....

Thanks Y. I too have had many good experiences within the church- baptisms, friendships, opportunities to love and serve etc. I’m currently walking a thin line trying to understand what the Father wants of me as I and our family move forward. It is a blessing to be awakened to see where we have fallen into idolatry and apostasy- myself included.

“always hoped they would have a chance to choose again and rectify it, since the love of hunting inevitably lead the US of A into warmongering and bombing/killing non combatants overseas”
Just a thought on this comment you made. It wasn’t the love of hunting that sent Americans to war. It is a Satanic conspiracy that did that. However the conspiracy has manipulated free working class Americans to send their young men to die in unprovoked and endless wars. They have done this by appealing to the “we are protecting our freedom” and “I can’t let my friends go to war and not do anything “/ patriotic fervor.
Most people who hunt love the solitude, being in nature, interacting with Gods creatures and being grateful for the life that was sacrificed so that they can feed their families and fulfill an instinct of survival and self sufficiency.

The conspiracy is all too willing to sacrifice brave young men to further their goal of total domination of the entire globe. A Satanic goal.

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Ymarsakar
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Posts: 4470

Re: Precepts of men- help me identify them

Post by Ymarsakar »

Teancum1 wrote: April 15th, 2023, 4:31 pm
Ymarsakar wrote: April 10th, 2023, 4:11 am "I fully admit I was likely practicing some sort of idolatry in believing that a prophet could not lead astray."

Our God and Godhead are merciful and compassionate. They will not harshly judge or penalize you for adhering to the traditions of your elders, parents, siblings, and social circle. However, sooner or later a child must graduate school and become a functional member of a greater society. We are at this junction point for humanity, and perhaps not everyone was ready but no child can stay forever a child. This is just life.

While the LDS brethren are more open minded than say the Inquisition some centuries ago, they still have human egos and other issues, like attachment to physical wealth and buildings. Certainly these times are an improvement upon what the Saints experienced in Missouri under the extermination order or when the US federal army was sent to "suppress the Mormon rebels" aka kill them all like Indians. However, in more prosperous times, we simply run into the Cain vs Able issue, where the enemy is no longer outside but more inside our own bodies. And with the mrna, that is literally true so to speak. Churches are in one interpretation, bodies of Christ's disciples, those who wish to become like or as their mentor. A disciple in Eastern tradition is not a "fan or fanatic", not someone who admires the unachievable star from afar. They are called upon to treat their mentors as close family. To work together with their brothers and sisters. You don't worship your brother or sister right forever?

If Jesus/Yeshua/Jeshua is our brother, then how long will we remain in this state where I once asked others if they could do as Jesus did, and they replied, "oh never, I could never". That was a very sad reply to me, but one that they picked up from others perhaps in the LDS faith. By 2020, ready or not, here we go.

So T, you are making great progress, I hope you know that, cousin. Having to challenge your own beliefs, with very little support, is a courageous action, and often times confusing and disheartening. But that is why it is courage, of the heart, that it tests. I personally don't feel any animosity against the LDS brethren or leadership. They go their way and I go mine, and during the time we were together and in harmony, it was great and I achieved much as a result of the LDS traditions passing unto this generation. But eventually, I will grow up and must stand before the Almighty by myself and testify as to my own actions.

"That hunting is always acceptable. There are actually quite a few stipulations that the Lord puts on it and will require us to account for animals we have killed."

I read the Journal of DIscourses, the less edited version of Brigham's speeches and many important Latter Day Saint speeches around 1857 time period. They were quite against the bloodshed of hunting, as many felt that this incited the lust to kill and it just wasn't something good for them spiritually, albeit sometimes necessary. Modern LDS Utah/Mormon culture was a departure from the original teachings (or first generation) from the recent 2016 point of view of mine. I always hoped they would have a chance to choose again and rectify it, since the love of hunting inevitably lead the US of A into warmongering and bombing/killing non combatants overseas. At the same time, I felt it would be too much paternalism if a Church authority tried to regulate hunting. That was before they tried to mandate/regulate waxinations....

Thanks Y. I too have had many good experiences within the church- baptisms, friendships, opportunities to love and serve etc. I’m currently walking a thin line trying to understand what the Father wants of me as I and our family move forward. It is a blessing to be awakened to see where we have fallen into idolatry and apostasy- myself included.

“always hoped they would have a chance to choose again and rectify it, since the love of hunting inevitably lead the US of A into warmongering and bombing/killing non combatants overseas”
Just a thought on this comment you made. It wasn’t the love of hunting that sent Americans to war. It is a Satanic conspiracy that did that. However the conspiracy has manipulated free working class Americans to send their young men to die in unprovoked and endless wars. They have done this by appealing to the “we are protecting our freedom” and “I can’t let my friends go to war and not do anything “/ patriotic fervor.
Most people who hunt love the solitude, being in nature, interacting with Gods creatures and being grateful for the life that was sacrificed so that they can feed their families and fulfill an instinct of survival and self sufficiency.

The conspiracy is all too willing to sacrifice brave young men to further their goal of total domination of the entire globe. A Satanic goal.
As always it depends on their spiritual maturity. I look at america s history in general and recent incidents specifically.

While ukraine is a bit of an outlier, the initial support for an escalation of weapons to weaken aka kill russians came from both sides of politics. The left was just obeying orders but it is stranger to explain why the nra right side hunters supported it even though it was a war by a gov that lied to em and tried to kill all of em. The fear conditioning of cold war and the conditioning process of using firearms to kill were the tools used by satans. You call it a conspiracy but conspiracies have physical tactics and methods. They are not just invisibile super or natural phenomenon.

A great discussion between former opposiing parties

https://rumble.com/v20b13u-tucker-carls ... tulsi.html

Without god s grace they would have eternally been pitted againdt each other. Unaware of the true satan enemy conspiracies.

Generqlly over the years, fear trauma is what has been used to propel usa to war. Specifically the gun owners and hunters to war. So called surprise attqck at pearl. Gulf of tonkin. Lusitania. Mormon polygamy.

Fear is the mind killer.

It would be interesting to see a poll between lds hunters and their stance on russia ukraine in 2022 vs the rest of the country usa in 2022.

Support for the ukraine side was very high amonst conservatives and gun owning hunters. It was lower than the left that fears guns. The more people seemed to fear something the easier they were to control.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... e?lang=eng

This teaching to preserve life was very high in 1857 lds era. It has eroded over time. This was one of the methods used to judge the church. You can call it satanic but satan is just serving a role in the divine counsel. The prosecutor.

In so far as you judge another, so the same shall be used to judge you. The other includes other life whether human or otherwise. This is essentially a type of karma.

So you see, it is all connected. Whatever justifications used for hunting is easily seen in how moderna and pfizer farms humans for profit. It is a kind of lesson or chastisement.

Animals are usually weaker than our firearms. As we judge how to kill them and for what reason, so satan also causes us to be judged by higher powers ephesians 6 12 and psalm 82 for the actions of the species.

The lds mainline then suffers the penalty of corrosion and sudden deaths. This cause and effect is not obvious due to the time delay.

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