“I finally tried Egyptian, and to my complete surprise, I found that the Book of Mormon translated flawlessly..."

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kirtland r.m.
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“I finally tried Egyptian, and to my complete surprise, I found that the Book of Mormon translated flawlessly..."

Post by kirtland r.m. »

More translation information from the Book of Mormon, enjoy it forum readers.

Die Boek van Mormon

By John M. Pontius

I was searching through my books in storage a few days ago and came across a first edition of the Book of Mormon in Afrikaans. I served a mission in South African from 1971 to 1973. It was an interesting and challenging experience. I attended the Stake Conference in Johannesburg on May 14, 1972 when the new translation of the Book of Mormon into Afrikaans (Die Boek van Mormon) was presented. It was an electric moment. People wept. Some had waited all of their lifetimes to read the Book of Mormon in Afrikaans. Many people had learned English for the sole purpose of reading this scripture. The Spirit was strong among us as we rejoiced.

Remembering back more than 50 years, I can still remember Professor Felix Mynhardt [not a member of our church] as he spoke of his experience in translating that sacred book. I will retell it as best I can recall.

Professor Mynhardt was invited to come to the stand and speak about his experience in translating the Book of Mormon. He recounted how he had been given a gift of languages from God from his youth. He said that he was fluent in many languages, including English, Afrikaans, Hebrew and Egyptian, as well as many others. He was presently employed as a language professor.

He said he had been praying that the Lord would give him some task, some divinely important task, that would justify his having this gift of language from God. He said in about 1970 that he had visited with a group of Mormon leaders, who sought to commission him to translate the Book of Mormon from English into Afrikaans. He said that he knew of the Book of Mormon from his religions studies, and his initial reaction was that he did not want to be involved in translating it.

However, that evening, as he prayed upon his knees, as was his habit, he said the Spirit of the Lord convicted him. The message was something on the order of, “You asked me for a great, divinely inspired task of translation, I sent it to you in the form of translating the Book of Mormon, and you declined.”

Professor Mynhardt said he could not sleep through the night because he knew that translating the Book of Mormon would get him into trouble with his university, which was owned and operated by the Dutch Reformed Church.

When morning came he telephoned Elder Clark to inform him that he would begin the translation immediately. He stood at the pulpit and described the experience.

He said, “I never begin translating a book at the beginning. Writing style usually changes through a book, and becomes more consistent toward the middle. Accordingly, I opened to a random place in the middle of the Book of Mormon, and began translating.”

He said, “I was startled by the obvious fact that the Book of Mormon was not authored in English.

He said, “It became immediately apparent that what I was reading was a translation into English from some another language. The sentence structure was wrong for native English. The word choices were wrong, as were many phrases.”

He said, “How many times has an Englishman said or written, ‘And it came to pass?’” We all laughed, and knew he was right, of course.

He continued, “When I realized this, I knew that I had to find the original language, and translate it back into the original language, or a similar language to the original, and then proceed to translate it into Afrikaans. He listed a half-dozen languages he tried, all of which did not accommodate the strange sentence structure found in the Book of Mormon.

He said, “I finally tried Egyptian, and to my complete surprise, I found that the Book of Mormon translated flawlessly into Egyptian, not modern, but ancient Egyptian. I found that some nouns were missing from Egyptian, so I added Hebrew nouns where Egyptian did not provide the word or phrase. I chose Hebrew because both languages existed in the same place anciently.”

“I had no idea at that time why the Book of Mormon was once written in Egyptian, but I can tell you without any doubt, that this book was at one point written entirely in Egyptian.” I heard him say this over and over. Then, he said, “Imagine my utter astonishment when I turned to chapter one, verse one and began my actual translation and came to verse two, where Nephi describes that he was writing in the language of the Egyptians, with the learning of the Jews!”


He said, “I knew by the second verse, that this was no ordinary book, that it was not the writings of Joseph Smith, but that it was of ancient origin and was in fact scripture. I could have saved myself months of work if I had just begun at the beginning. Nobody but God, working through a prophet of God, in this case Nephi, would have included a statement of the language he was writing in.

Consider, how many documents written in English, include the phrase, “we are writing in English!” It is unthinkable and absolute proof of the inspired origins of this book. He paused, then noted, “I am one of the few people in the world that is fluent in ancient Egyptian. I am perhaps the only person fluent in ancient Egyptian who is also fluent in Afrikaans and English. And I know for a fact, that I am the only person alive who could have translated this book first into Egyptian, and then into Afrikaans. If your church ever needs an Egyptian translation of the Book of Mormon, it is sitting in my office as we speak.” We all laughed.

Professor Mynhardt spoke of many other things regarding the translation of this book, and then said, “I do not know what Joseph Smith was before he translated this book, and I do not know what he was afterward, but while he translated this book, he was a prophet of God! I know he was a prophet! I testify to you that he was a prophet while he brought forth this book! He could have been nothing else! No person in 1827 could have done what he did. The science did not exist. The knowledge of ancient Egyptian did not exist. The knowledge of these ancient times and ancient peoples did not exist. The Book of Mormon is scripture. I hope you realize this.

“I will keep promoting this book as scripture for the remainder of my life – simply because it is scripture, and I know it. I haven’t studied your doctrine or your history since Joseph Smith. The only thing I know about the Mormon religion is that you have authentic, ancient scripture in the Book of Mormon, that your church was begun by a living and true prophet of God, and that all of the world should embrace the Book of Mormon as scripture. It simply can’t be denied.
http://ldsemailforwards.blogspot.com/se ... f%20Mormon
Last edited by kirtland r.m. on March 26th, 2023, 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Original_Intent
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Re: “I finally tried Egyptian, and to my complete surprise, I found that the Book of Mormon translated flawlessly..."

Post by Original_Intent »

kirtland r.m. wrote: March 26th, 2023, 12:53 pm More translation information from the Book of Mormon, enjoy it forum readers.

Die Boek van Mormon

By John M. Pontius

I was searching through my books in storage a few days ago and came across a first edition of the Book of Mormon in Afrikaans. I served a mission in South African from 1971 to 1973. It was an interesting and challenging experience. I attended the Stake Conference in Johannesburg on May 14, 1972 when the new translation of the Book of Mormon into Afrikaans (Die Boek van Mormon) was presented. It was an electric moment. People wept. Some had waited all of their lifetimes to read the Book of Mormon in Afrikaans. Many people had learned English for the sole purpose of reading this scripture. The Spirit was strong among us as we rejoiced.

Remembering back more than 50 years, I can still remember Professor Felix Mynhardt [not a member of our church] as he spoke of his experience in translating that sacred book. I will retell it as best I can recall.

Professor Mynhardt was invited to come to the stand and speak about his experience in translating the Book of Mormon. He recounted how he had been given a gift of languages from God from his youth. He said that he was fluent in many languages, including English, Afrikaans, Hebrew and Egyptian, as well as many others. He was presently employed as a language professor.

He said he had been praying that the Lord would give him some task, some divinely important task, that would justify his having this gift of language from God. He said in about 1970 that he had visited with a group of Mormon leaders, who sought to commission him to translate the Book of Mormon from English into Afrikaans. He said that he knew of the Book of Mormon from his religions studies, and his initial reaction was that he did not want to be involved in translating it.

However, that evening, as he prayed upon his knees, as was his habit, he said the Spirit of the Lord convicted him. The message was something on the order of, “You asked me for a great, divinely inspired task of translation, I sent it to you in the form of translating the Book of Mormon, and you declined.”

Professor Mynhardt said he could not sleep through the night because he knew that translating the Book of Mormon would get him into trouble with his university, which was owned and operated by the Dutch Reformed Church.

When morning came he telephoned Elder Clark to inform him that he would begin the translation immediately. He stood at the pulpit and described the experience.

He said, “I never begin translating a book at the beginning. Writing style usually changes through a book, and becomes more consistent toward the middle. Accordingly, I opened to a random place in the middle of the Book of Mormon, and began translating.”

He said, “I was startled by the obvious fact that the Book of Mormon was not authored in English.

He said, “It became immediately apparent that what I was reading was a translation into English from some another language. The sentence structure was wrong for native English. The word choices were wrong, as were many phrases.”

He said, “How many times has an Englishman said or written, ‘And it came to pass?’” We all laughed, and knew he was right, of course.

He continued, “When I realized this, I knew that I had to find the original language, and translate it back into the original language, or a similar language to the original, and then proceed to translate it into Afrikaans. He listed a half-dozen languages he tried, all of which did not accommodate the strange sentence structure found in the Book of Mormon.

He said, “I finally tried Egyptian, and to my complete surprise, I found that the Book of Mormon translated flawlessly into Egyptian, not modern, but ancient Egyptian. I found that some nouns were missing from Egyptian, so I added Hebrew nouns where Egyptian did not provide the word or phrase. I chose Hebrew because both languages existed in the same place anciently.”

“I had no idea at that time why the Book of Mormon was once written in Egyptian, but I can tell you without any doubt, that this book was at one point written entirely in Egyptian.” I heard him say this over and over. Then, he said, “Imagine my utter astonishment when I turned to chapter one, verse one and began my actual translation and came to verse two, where Nephi describes that he was writing in the language of the Egyptians, with the learning of the Jews!”


He said, “I knew by the second verse, that this was no ordinary book, that it was not the writings of Joseph Smith, but that it was of ancient origin and was in fact scripture. I could have saved myself months of work if I had just begun at the beginning. Nobody but God, working through a prophet of God, in this case Nephi, would have included a statement of the language he was writing in.

Consider, how many documents written in English, include the phrase, “we are writing in English!” It is unthinkable and absolute proof of the inspired origins of this book. He paused, then noted, “I am one of the few people in the world that is fluent in ancient Egyptian. I am perhaps the only person fluent in ancient Egyptian who is also fluent in Afrikaans and English. And I know for a fact, that I am the only person alive who could have translated this book first into Egyptian, and then into Afrikaans. If your church ever needs an Egyptian translation of the Book of Mormon, it is sitting in my office as we speak.” We all laughed.

Professor Mynhardt spoke of many other things regarding the translation of this book, and then said, “I do not know what Joseph Smith was before he translated this book, and I do not know what he was afterward, but while he translated this book, he was a prophet of God! I know he was a prophet! I testify to you that he was a prophet while he brought forth this book! He could have been nothing else! No person in 1827 could have done what he did. The science did not exist. The knowledge of ancient Egyptian did not exist. The knowledge of these ancient times and ancient peoples did not exist. The Book of Mormon is scripture. I hope you realize this.

“I will keep promoting this book as scripture for the remainder of my life – simply because it is scripture, and I know it. I haven’t studied your doctrine or your history since Joseph Smith. The only thing I know about the Mormon religion is that you have authentic, ancient scripture in the Book of Mormon, that your church was begun by a living and true prophet of God, and that all of the world should embrace the Book of Mormon as scripture. It simply can’t be denied.http://ldsemailforwards.blogspot.com/se ... f%20Mormon
I have heard about this story previously, and love it every time I hear it.

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Cruiserdude
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Re: “I finally tried Egyptian, and to my complete surprise, I found that the Book of Mormon translated flawlessly..."

Post by Cruiserdude »

kirtland r.m. wrote: March 26th, 2023, 12:53 pm More translation information from the Book of Mormon, enjoy it forum readers.

Die Boek van Mormon

By John M. Pontius

I was searching through my books in storage a few days ago and came across a first edition of the Book of Mormon in Afrikaans. I served a mission in South African from 1971 to 1973. It was an interesting and challenging experience. I attended the Stake Conference in Johannesburg on May 14, 1972 when the new translation of the Book of Mormon into Afrikaans (Die Boek van Mormon) was presented. It was an electric moment. People wept. Some had waited all of their lifetimes to read the Book of Mormon in Afrikaans. Many people had learned English for the sole purpose of reading this scripture. The Spirit was strong among us as we rejoiced.

Remembering back more than 50 years, I can still remember Professor Felix Mynhardt [not a member of our church] as he spoke of his experience in translating that sacred book. I will retell it as best I can recall.

Professor Mynhardt was invited to come to the stand and speak about his experience in translating the Book of Mormon. He recounted how he had been given a gift of languages from God from his youth. He said that he was fluent in many languages, including English, Afrikaans, Hebrew and Egyptian, as well as many others. He was presently employed as a language professor.

He said he had been praying that the Lord would give him some task, some divinely important task, that would justify his having this gift of language from God. He said in about 1970 that he had visited with a group of Mormon leaders, who sought to commission him to translate the Book of Mormon from English into Afrikaans. He said that he knew of the Book of Mormon from his religions studies, and his initial reaction was that he did not want to be involved in translating it.

However, that evening, as he prayed upon his knees, as was his habit, he said the Spirit of the Lord convicted him. The message was something on the order of, “You asked me for a great, divinely inspired task of translation, I sent it to you in the form of translating the Book of Mormon, and you declined.”

Professor Mynhardt said he could not sleep through the night because he knew that translating the Book of Mormon would get him into trouble with his university, which was owned and operated by the Dutch Reformed Church.

When morning came he telephoned Elder Clark to inform him that he would begin the translation immediately. He stood at the pulpit and described the experience.

He said, “I never begin translating a book at the beginning. Writing style usually changes through a book, and becomes more consistent toward the middle. Accordingly, I opened to a random place in the middle of the Book of Mormon, and began translating.”

He said, “I was startled by the obvious fact that the Book of Mormon was not authored in English.

He said, “It became immediately apparent that what I was reading was a translation into English from some another language. The sentence structure was wrong for native English. The word choices were wrong, as were many phrases.”

He said, “How many times has an Englishman said or written, ‘And it came to pass?’” We all laughed, and knew he was right, of course.

He continued, “When I realized this, I knew that I had to find the original language, and translate it back into the original language, or a similar language to the original, and then proceed to translate it into Afrikaans. He listed a half-dozen languages he tried, all of which did not accommodate the strange sentence structure found in the Book of Mormon.

He said, “I finally tried Egyptian, and to my complete surprise, I found that the Book of Mormon translated flawlessly into Egyptian, not modern, but ancient Egyptian. I found that some nouns were missing from Egyptian, so I added Hebrew nouns where Egyptian did not provide the word or phrase. I chose Hebrew because both languages existed in the same place anciently.”

“I had no idea at that time why the Book of Mormon was once written in Egyptian, but I can tell you without any doubt, that this book was at one point written entirely in Egyptian.” I heard him say this over and over. Then, he said, “Imagine my utter astonishment when I turned to chapter one, verse one and began my actual translation and came to verse two, where Nephi describes that he was writing in the language of the Egyptians, with the learning of the Jews!”


He said, “I knew by the second verse, that this was no ordinary book, that it was not the writings of Joseph Smith, but that it was of ancient origin and was in fact scripture. I could have saved myself months of work if I had just begun at the beginning. Nobody but God, working through a prophet of God, in this case Nephi, would have included a statement of the language he was writing in.

Consider, how many documents written in English, include the phrase, “we are writing in English!” It is unthinkable and absolute proof of the inspired origins of this book. He paused, then noted, “I am one of the few people in the world that is fluent in ancient Egyptian. I am perhaps the only person fluent in ancient Egyptian who is also fluent in Afrikaans and English. And I know for a fact, that I am the only person alive who could have translated this book first into Egyptian, and then into Afrikaans. If your church ever needs an Egyptian translation of the Book of Mormon, it is sitting in my office as we speak.” We all laughed.

Professor Mynhardt spoke of many other things regarding the translation of this book, and then said, “I do not know what Joseph Smith was before he translated this book, and I do not know what he was afterward, but while he translated this book, he was a prophet of God! I know he was a prophet! I testify to you that he was a prophet while he brought forth this book! He could have been nothing else! No person in 1827 could have done what he did. The science did not exist. The knowledge of ancient Egyptian did not exist. The knowledge of these ancient times and ancient peoples did not exist. The Book of Mormon is scripture. I hope you realize this.

“I will keep promoting this book as scripture for the remainder of my life – simply because it is scripture, and I know it. I haven’t studied your doctrine or your history since Joseph Smith. The only thing I know about the Mormon religion is that you have authentic, ancient scripture in the Book of Mormon, that your church was begun by a living and true prophet of God, and that all of the world should embrace the Book of Mormon as scripture. It simply can’t be denied.
http://ldsemailforwards.blogspot.com/se ... f%20Mormon
Hadn't read or heard about this. This is great KirtlandRM👍

endlessQuestions
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Posts: 6426

Re: “I finally tried Egyptian, and to my complete surprise, I found that the Book of Mormon translated flawlessly..."

Post by endlessQuestions »

It would be useful to establish the provenance of this. Is this “Visions of Glory” Pontus, by chance?

I have a hard time believing the Church wouldn’t use this story in its correlated curriculum if it were easily established as true.

Sorry for the cynicism - too many “faith promoting stories” that just aren’t true for one lifetime over here.

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Niemand
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Re: “I finally tried Egyptian, and to my complete surprise, I found that the Book of Mormon translated flawlessly..."

Post by Niemand »

I'm still waiting for the Klingon translation.

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kirtland r.m.
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Re: “I finally tried Egyptian, and to my complete surprise, I found that the Book of Mormon translated flawlessly..."

Post by kirtland r.m. »

endlessQuestions wrote: March 26th, 2023, 1:27 pm It would be useful to establish the provenance of this. Is this “Visions of Glory” Pontus, by chance?

I have a hard time believing the Church wouldn’t use this story in its correlated curriculum if it were easily established as true.

Sorry for the cynicism - too many “faith promoting stories” that just aren’t true for one lifetime over here.
Now don't take this personal endlessQuestions, because I do not mean to criticize anyone directly, but my friend, as the Lord has said, ask and ye shall receive.
The Translation of the Book of Mormon into Afrikaans by Lawrence E. Cummins, from churchofjesuschrist.org no less.https://africasouth.churchofjesuschrist ... -afrikaans

A little research, seeking, and faith would help save a lot of souls. Again I quote the Master. "Search the scriptures" and “Teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith” (D&C 88:118). “Study and learn and become acquainted with all good books, and with languages, tongues and people” (D&C 90:15). ;)
Last edited by kirtland r.m. on March 26th, 2023, 8:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Teancum1
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Posts: 550

Re: “I finally tried Egyptian, and to my complete surprise, I found that the Book of Mormon translated flawlessly..."

Post by Teancum1 »

:D
Niemand wrote: March 26th, 2023, 3:58 pm I'm still waiting for the Klingon translation.
😂🤣😂

endlessQuestions
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6426

Re: “I finally tried Egyptian, and to my complete surprise, I found that the Book of Mormon translated flawlessly..."

Post by endlessQuestions »

kirtland r.m. wrote: March 26th, 2023, 7:57 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: March 26th, 2023, 1:27 pm It would be useful to establish the provenance of this. Is this “Visions of Glory” Pontus, by chance?

I have a hard time believing the Church wouldn’t use this story in its correlated curriculum if it were easily established as true.

Sorry for the cynicism - too many “faith promoting stories” that just aren’t true for one lifetime over here.
Now don't take this personal endlessQuestions, because I do not mean to criticize anyone directly, but my friend, as the Lord has said, ask and ye shall receive.
The Translation of the Book of Mormon into Afrikaans by Lawrence E. Cummins, from churchofjesuschrist.org no less.https://africasouth.churchofjesuschrist ... -afrikaans

A little research, seeking, and faith would help save a lot of souls. Again I quote the Master. "Search the scriptures" and “Teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith” (D&C 88:118). “Study and learn and become acquainted with all good books, and with languages, tongues and people” (D&C 90:15). ;)
No offense taken, my friend.

No one has ever accused me of not doing my research, and I gladly thank you for the assist on this one…

EDIT:

This is a very different story than the original.

This is one I would like to dig into. It’s such a wonderful story. It would be fantastic to confirm its veracity in whole out in part.

Some of our best friends are from this part of the world. I will reach out to them next week, as they are vacationing this week.

Thanks again!

endlessQuestions
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Posts: 6426

Re: “I finally tried Egyptian, and to my complete surprise, I found that the Book of Mormon translated flawlessly..."

Post by endlessQuestions »

Here’s an interesting piece to the puzzle that contains a primary source document:

https://bycommonconsent.com/2014/06/28/ ... revisited/

endlessQuestions
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6426

Re: “I finally tried Egyptian, and to my complete surprise, I found that the Book of Mormon translated flawlessly..."

Post by endlessQuestions »

And this little nugget in a comment that needs further research:

“He said he relied on the Lord’s help to complete the translation. Interestingly, the article says Mynhardt is fluent in 15 listed languages. Egyptian is not one of them.”

endlessQuestions
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6426

Re: “I finally tried Egyptian, and to my complete surprise, I found that the Book of Mormon translated flawlessly..."

Post by endlessQuestions »

The original Common Consent blog, with a dead link to Pontius’ original:

https://bycommonconsent.com/2012/05/16/ ... more-36537

And confirmation that this is indeed John “Visions of Glory” Pontius, whom I personally feel had a very tenuous relationship with truth telling.

But that last part is just my opinion. I know there are many who feel they need to hang their hat on his writings. I view him about the same as I do a Denver Snuffer… somewhat entertaining, but not needed for my salvation in any way, shape, or form.

How am I doing on the “little research”? Okay so far?

larsenb
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Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: “I finally tried Egyptian, and to my complete surprise, I found that the Book of Mormon translated flawlessly..."

Post by larsenb »

endlessQuestions wrote: March 26th, 2023, 8:48 pm The original Common Consent blog, with a dead link to Pontius’ original:

https://bycommonconsent.com/2012/05/16/ ... more-36537

And confirmation that this is indeed John “Visions of Glory” Pontius, whom I personally feel had a very tenuous relationship with truth telling.

But that last part is just my opinion. I know there are many who feel they need to hang their hat on his writings. I view him about the same as I do a Denver Snuffer… somewhat entertaining, but not needed for my salvation in any way, shape, or form.

How am I doing on the “little research”? Okay so far?
But then the article by Lawrence E. Cummins gives at least some supporting evidence for Pontius' story. I think you would be better served by simply putting the story on the shelf until you discover more proof the story is a fairy tale. No one is saying you have to "hand [your] hat on his writings", notwithstanding your opinion of Pontius' dubious relation to truth telling.

endlessQuestions
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6426

Re: “I finally tried Egyptian, and to my complete surprise, I found that the Book of Mormon translated flawlessly..."

Post by endlessQuestions »

larsenb wrote: March 26th, 2023, 9:02 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: March 26th, 2023, 8:48 pm The original Common Consent blog, with a dead link to Pontius’ original:

https://bycommonconsent.com/2012/05/16/ ... more-36537

And confirmation that this is indeed John “Visions of Glory” Pontius, whom I personally feel had a very tenuous relationship with truth telling.

But that last part is just my opinion. I know there are many who feel they need to hang their hat on his writings. I view him about the same as I do a Denver Snuffer… somewhat entertaining, but not needed for my salvation in any way, shape, or form.

How am I doing on the “little research”? Okay so far?
But then the article by Lawrence E. Cummins gives at least some supporting evidence for Pontius' story. I think you would be better served by simply putting the story on the shelf until you discover more proof the story is a fairy tale. No one is saying you have to "hand [your] hat on his writings", notwithstanding your opinion of Pontius' dubious relation to truth telling.
Sorry if I have typos, on a phone tonight.

What’s wrong with documenting the proof I’m finding right now, out of curiosity? Does it hurt to have primary source documents and informed opinions added to the conversation?

endlessQuestions
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Posts: 6426

Re: “I finally tried Egyptian, and to my complete surprise, I found that the Book of Mormon translated flawlessly..."

Post by endlessQuestions »

Here’s an interesting comment from another contemporaneous discussion:

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/60 ... he-rounds/

“I have it on good authority (one of Mynhardt's relatives and a friend familiar with the situation) that much of the account is substantially like it happened--just about everything but the Egyptian part. Mynhardt did not know Egyptian. That part about back-translating into Egyptian and then into Afrikaans, according to the relative, is not accurate.”

endlessQuestions
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Posts: 6426

Re: “I finally tried Egyptian, and to my complete surprise, I found that the Book of Mormon translated flawlessly..."

Post by endlessQuestions »

And this:

“I just am visiting to report something that someone I know just found. The story is not, I repeat, not a complete fabrication. Many details are wrong, such as the use of Egyptian, but underlying this are statements of Felix Mijnhardt (phonetically Mynhardt) himself. Someone I know has located a transcript of a talk that the professor gave on the same date and in the same city. This transcript was submitted to the Church some time ago by the Transvaal Stake, in Johannesburg, the date stated as May 14, 1972, which is the date stated by the account that has been circulating. There are considerable lapses in memory in the circulating account but underlying that account are some real events as reported by Professor Mijnhardt during said talk.

Mijnhardt, whenever he came to difficult passages to translate into Afrikaans, would backtranslate into Hebrew and then into Afrikaans from there. He stated that such sentences made a whole lot more sense to him when he did that and also came to the conclusion that Joseph Smith could not have just "thought up" the Book of Mormon and that it had "in fact a solid matter of fact origin of some Semitic language."

So, in spite of errors in reporting and serious lapses of memory, it is not a "complete fabrication" in that the transcript substantiates a certain amount of the 40-year later recollection. The account has some basis in fact. I, in fact, have been shown the transcript, along with the source slip and call number of the transcript from the CHL.

Location information for the transcript of Professor Mijnhardt discussing the translation process here.”

larsenb
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Posts: 10813
Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: “I finally tried Egyptian, and to my complete surprise, I found that the Book of Mormon translated flawlessly..."

Post by larsenb »

endlessQuestions wrote: March 26th, 2023, 9:09 pm
larsenb wrote: March 26th, 2023, 9:02 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: March 26th, 2023, 8:48 pm The original Common Consent blog, with a dead link to Pontius’ original:

https://bycommonconsent.com/2012/05/16/ ... more-36537

And confirmation that this is indeed John “Visions of Glory” Pontius, whom I personally feel had a very tenuous relationship with truth telling.

But that last part is just my opinion. I know there are many who feel they need to hang their hat on his writings. I view him about the same as I do a Denver Snuffer… somewhat entertaining, but not needed for my salvation in any way, shape, or form.

How am I doing on the “little research”? Okay so far?
But then the article by Lawrence E. Cummins gives at least some supporting evidence for Pontius' story. I think you would be better served by simply putting the story on the shelf until you discover more proof the story is a fairy tale. No one is saying you have to "hand [your] hat on his writings", notwithstanding your opinion of Pontius' dubious relation to truth telling.
Sorry if I have typos, on a phone tonight.

What’s wrong with documenting the proof I’m finding right now, out of curiosity? Does it hurt to have primary source documents and informed opinions added to the conversation?
Not at all. But why not give more effort to track down alternative witnesses to Pontius' story. And why assume that Cummins has exact information on all the languages Mynhard may have 'mastered'?

Edit: I just saw your post confirming from someone close to Mynard that he did not have facility with ancient Egyptian, and the idea that he actually translated the BofM into ancient Egyptian does sound far fetched in any case. Good find.

endlessQuestions
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Posts: 6426

Re: “I finally tried Egyptian, and to my complete surprise, I found that the Book of Mormon translated flawlessly..."

Post by endlessQuestions »

larsenb wrote: March 26th, 2023, 9:18 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: March 26th, 2023, 9:09 pm
larsenb wrote: March 26th, 2023, 9:02 pm
But then the article by Lawrence E. Cummins gives at least some supporting evidence for Pontius' story. I think you would be better served by simply putting the story on the shelf until you discover more proof the story is a fairy tale. No one is saying you have to "hand [your] hat on his writings", notwithstanding your opinion of Pontius' dubious relation to truth telling.
Sorry if I have typos, on a phone tonight.

What’s wrong with documenting the proof I’m finding right now, out of curiosity? Does it hurt to have primary source documents and informed opinions added to the conversation?
Not at all. But why not give more effort to track down alternative witnesses to Pontius' story. And why assume that Cummins has exact information on all the languages Mynhard may have 'mastered'?

My guess is that confirming that Mynhard did or did not have a certain facility in ancient Egyptian should be fairly easy to verify. But likewise, your sense of Pontius' lack of veracity is certainly sufficient for you to not be too enthusiastic about this kind of effort.
I guess I’ve just lost my sense of empathy for situations where people try to build faith by casually telling stories that take very little time to debunk.

Pontius is a terrible source for historical information.

It took all of ten minutes to find it this individual didn’t even know Egyptian, which is the major claim of the suit and the post (it’s in the title, yes?).

Even Pontius pulled it off his blog, and yet here we are, rehashing it ten years later.

I need verifiable faith building stories to help those who are leaving the Church due to the lack of truth telling from the leadership. This doesn’t help. I’m sorry if I’m being too critical about it tonight. I truly am.

larsenb
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Re: “I finally tried Egyptian, and to my complete surprise, I found that the Book of Mormon translated flawlessly..."

Post by larsenb »

endlessQuestions wrote: March 26th, 2023, 9:23 pm
larsenb wrote: March 26th, 2023, 9:18 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: March 26th, 2023, 9:09 pm

Sorry if I have typos, on a phone tonight.

What’s wrong with documenting the proof I’m finding right now, out of curiosity? Does it hurt to have primary source documents and informed opinions added to the conversation?
Not at all. But why not give more effort to track down alternative witnesses to Pontius' story. And why assume that Cummins has exact information on all the languages Mynhard may have 'mastered'?

My guess is that confirming that Mynhard did or did not have a certain facility in ancient Egyptian should be fairly easy to verify. But likewise, your sense of Pontius' lack of veracity is certainly sufficient for you to not be too enthusiastic about this kind of effort.
I guess I’ve just lost my sense of empathy for situations where people try to build faith by casually telling stories that take very little time to debunk.

Pontius is a terrible source for historical information.

It took all of ten minutes to find it this individual didn’t even know Egyptian, which is the major claim of the suit and the post (it’s in the title, yes?).

Even Pontius pulled it off his blog, and yet here we are, rehashing it ten years later.

I need verifiable faith building stories to help those who are leaving the Church due to the lack of truth telling from the leadership. This doesn’t help. I’m sorry if I’m being too critical about it tonight. I truly am.
I wrote the tail-end of my post your are quoting before I had read the further research you did. Re-read my edited post.

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Niemand
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Posts: 13999

Re: “I finally tried Egyptian, and to my complete surprise, I found that the Book of Mormon translated flawlessly..."

Post by Niemand »

Teancum1 wrote: March 26th, 2023, 7:58 pm :D
Niemand wrote: March 26th, 2023, 3:58 pm I'm still waiting for the Klingon translation.
😂🤣😂
I'm only half joking.
http://klingon.wiki/En/BookOfMormon
Several important chapters of the Book of Mormon have been translated into Klingon by Elizabeth M. Moore. Her website has been there for the past decade without any changes.
Turns out that she/they translated one of the most appropriate chapters, i.e. Nephi fights Laban. I can't vouch for the quality of the translation.
https://freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2219204/posts
Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.
batlh ngoQmey qaSmoHveH nuv qab HoH joH'a'. wa' Hegh QaQ law' Harbe'ghachmo' tayqeq Hegh QaQ puS.

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ransomme
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Re: “I finally tried Egyptian, and to my complete surprise, I found that the Book of Mormon translated flawlessly..."

Post by ransomme »

Niemand wrote: March 26th, 2023, 3:58 pm I'm still waiting for the Klingon translation.
Not Elvish?

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Niemand
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Re: “I finally tried Egyptian, and to my complete surprise, I found that the Book of Mormon translated flawlessly..."

Post by Niemand »

ransomme wrote: March 27th, 2023, 4:03 am
Niemand wrote: March 26th, 2023, 3:58 pm I'm still waiting for the Klingon translation.
Not Elvish?
🙂

Not aware of an Elvish one although there seem to be more than a few LDS Tolkien fans out there. An entire Esperanto translation has been done and is available online. The church refuses to sanction it, which is a bit stupid considering there are some people who take it seriously.

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Momma J
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Re: “I finally tried Egyptian, and to my complete surprise, I found that the Book of Mormon translated flawlessly..."

Post by Momma J »

Off topic, which I do more than "On Topic" :?

Have any of you read the 1560 Geneva Bible? I have been encouraged by the spirit of study this version of the bible to more fully understand God's love for us.

I do not own a copy and have never heard of it. The number 1560 kept nagging at me until I became curious enough to see what happened in 1560.

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Niemand
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Re: “I finally tried Egyptian, and to my complete surprise, I found that the Book of Mormon translated flawlessly..."

Post by Niemand »

Momma J wrote: March 27th, 2023, 6:06 am Off topic, which I do more than "On Topic" :?

Have any of you read the 1560 Geneva Bible? I have been encouraged by the spirit of study this version of the bible to more fully understand God's love for us.

I do not own a copy and have never heard of it. The number 1560 kept nagging at me until I became curious enough to see what happened in 1560.
You might like my post on the Wycliffe Bible
viewtopic.php?t=69265

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Momma J
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Posts: 1494

Re: “I finally tried Egyptian, and to my complete surprise, I found that the Book of Mormon translated flawlessly..."

Post by Momma J »

Niemand wrote: March 27th, 2023, 6:10 am
Momma J wrote: March 27th, 2023, 6:06 am Off topic, which I do more than "On Topic" :?

Have any of you read the 1560 Geneva Bible? I have been encouraged by the spirit of study this version of the bible to more fully understand God's love for us.

I do not own a copy and have never heard of it. The number 1560 kept nagging at me until I became curious enough to see what happened in 1560.
You might like my post on the Wycliffe Bible
viewtopic.php?t=69265
Awesome! Thank you :)

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kirtland r.m.
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Re: “I finally tried Egyptian, and to my complete surprise, I found that the Book of Mormon translated flawlessly..."

Post by kirtland r.m. »

Another very interesting quote… Now another problem arose from the indirect quotations from the King James version of the Bible which was known at the time. Direct quotation such as from Jeremiah, etc., could be rendered directly from the Afrikaans version. But indirect quotations or references not cited word for word caused many a headache. And I afterwards found that if I translated the relevant passages from the English into Hebrew first and then translated the Hebrew, however cumbersome this may sound, actually those sentences made better sense. This was particularly the case when words or phrases are used in the English but not so in the King James version. There are so many instances of these I shall not even attempt to cite them. The point I wish to make is that this to me proves that the Book of Mormon was not thought up but had in fact a solid matter of fact origin of some Semitic language. …D. Charles Pyle. May 14, 1972 meeting in the Church Archives.

I have a second witness to the John M. Pontius experience as well. I will post that information in a day or two.

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