Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

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dreamtheater76
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by dreamtheater76 »

Wondering Wendy wrote: March 26th, 2023, 5:31 pm Well, sure, there aren't any mountains there now...
Rocky Mountain High? That John Denver was full of crap!

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Cruiserdude
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

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dreamtheater76 wrote: March 26th, 2023, 6:36 pm
Wondering Wendy wrote: March 26th, 2023, 5:31 pm Well, sure, there aren't any mountains there now...
Rocky Mountain High? That John Denver was full of crap!
The Rocky Mountains aren't very rocky, are they Lloyd?...... That John Denver is full of......
🤣🤣🤣🤣What a riot that movie was, holy moly

simpleton
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by simpleton »

gkearney wrote: March 26th, 2023, 6:17 pm
Being There wrote: March 26th, 2023, 5:49 pm
LDS Physician wrote: March 26th, 2023, 2:31 pm

Generally speaking, it is wise to take anything BY said with a large salty grain of salt.
true. I agree.
However in this case, he is right.
Not only Missouri, but the entire U.S. will be swept clean.
And we know that - from many other scriptures.
There is a wide body of opinion among a cross section of various Latter Day Saints in the area that the destruction referred happened at the time of the civil war which was devastating to the area the impacts of which permitted the LDS, RLDS the Temple Lot church and others to return to Independence and reacquire lands associated with the temple lots.
Are they also of the same opinion that all is well in Zion, Independence, Jackson County? And that things will just smoothly roll into the redemption of Zion?

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tmac
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by tmac »

I’ve mentioned this before on other related threads, but with the number of times that mountains are mentioned (at the very least in Mormon Myth), it is fair to consider nclude that the mountains must hold some kind of actual, strategic advantage, at least for a time? But, what is it? What is the strategic advantage?

The closest thing I’ve seen to a good, thought-provoking answer was a video posted by Silver Pie, with an inundation map that shows what will happen when the earth reels to and fro.

But then there’s Visions of Glory, which says the SLValley will be flooded, so who knows?

Just enough information to create perfect conditions for speculation.

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gkearney
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

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simpleton wrote: March 26th, 2023, 7:00 pm
gkearney wrote: March 26th, 2023, 6:17 pm
Being There wrote: March 26th, 2023, 5:49 pm

true. I agree.
However in this case, he is right.
Not only Missouri, but the entire U.S. will be swept clean.
And we know that - from many other scriptures.
There is a wide body of opinion among a cross section of various Latter Day Saints in the area that the destruction referred happened at the time of the civil war which was devastating to the area the impacts of which permitted the LDS, RLDS the Temple Lot church and others to return to Independence and reacquire lands associated with the temple lots.
Are they also of the same opinion that all is well in Zion, Independence, Jackson County? And that things will just smoothly roll into the redemption of Zion?
Well I would suppose some do and others do not. The restoration isn’t are a diverse lot if nothing else.

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MikeMaillet
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

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Christianlee wrote: March 26th, 2023, 2:38 pm
investigator wrote: March 26th, 2023, 2:34 pm Why not Jackson county Missouri? Because there are no mountains in Missouri.
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
If that is true, Joseph Smith was a false prophet.
The Hebrew Prophets used much imagery in their writings. Mountains and hills are countries. Trees are people. Forests are cities... The mountain of the Lord's house is the country in which we find the temple. The US has been exalted above the other hills/countries and was created when many nations' peoples settled it. Also, the latter-day exodus will be comprised of people from around the world who will come to Zion. SLC may be located in some hills but these are not the hills mentioned in the scriptures.

Mike

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investigator
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by investigator »

MikeMaillet wrote: March 27th, 2023, 3:32 am
Christianlee wrote: March 26th, 2023, 2:38 pm
investigator wrote: March 26th, 2023, 2:34 pm Why not Jackson county Missouri? Because there are no mountains in Missouri.

If that is true, Joseph Smith was a false prophet.
The Hebrew Prophets used much imagery in their writings. Mountains and hills are countries. Trees are people. Forests are cities... The mountain of the Lord's house is the country in which we find the temple. The US has been exalted above the other hills/countries and was created when many nations' peoples settled it. Also, the latter-day exodus will be comprised of people from around the world who will come to Zion. SLC may be located in some hills but these are not the hills mentioned in the scriptures.

Mike
Satan, Lucifer, Cain (SLC) ??😎

Salt Lake City is in a valley not the tops of the mountains and for that and other obvious reasons is disqualified for Zion. Sometimes Isaiah was literal not figurative. I believe this is one of those times. If we lack wisdom we can always ask God.

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MikeMaillet
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

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investigator wrote: March 27th, 2023, 10:28 am
MikeMaillet wrote: March 27th, 2023, 3:32 am
Christianlee wrote: March 26th, 2023, 2:38 pm

If that is true, Joseph Smith was a false prophet.
The Hebrew Prophets used much imagery in their writings. Mountains and hills are countries. Trees are people. Forests are cities... The mountain of the Lord's house is the country in which we find the temple. The US has been exalted above the other hills/countries and was created when many nations' peoples settled it. Also, the latter-day exodus will be comprised of people from around the world who will come to Zion. SLC may be located in some hills but these are not the hills mentioned in the scriptures.

Mike
Satan, Lucifer, Cain (SLC) ??😎

Salt Lake City is in a valley not the tops of the mountains and for that and other obvious reasons is disqualified for Zion. Sometimes Isaiah was literal not figurative. I believe this is one of those times. If we lack wisdom we can always ask God.
SLC; I like that :-) Baddam, Psh!

The more I read Isaiah and the other Prophets the more I begin to think that maybe they were always literal as well as pretty much always figurative simultaneously. I wish I was better versed with the Old Testament and that I had not dismissed it when I was younger. My biggest question is why was I a Gentile on this earth rather than a Heathen, a Canaanite or an Israelite?

I know I certainly lack wisdom and I know that when I ask God for it that it comes in subtle but powerful ways.

Mike

Christianlee
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

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Traditionally, Jerusalem’s temple is the top of the mountain. I don’t see any role in Isaiah for America.

Isaiah 2:1-5

1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the Lord.

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mudflap
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

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so....

nobody is going to bring up what Jesus told the Nephites in 3 Ne 21 (also see ch 20)?
1 AND verily I say unto you, I give unto you a sign, that ye may know the time when these things shall be about to take place--that I shall gather in, from their long dispersion, my people, O house of Israel, and shall establish again among them my Zion;
2 And behold, this is the thing which I will give unto you for a sign--for verily I say unto you that when these things which I declare unto you, and which I shall declare unto you hereafter of myself, and by the power of the Holy Ghost which shall be given unto you of the Father, shall be made known unto the Gentiles that they may know concerning this people who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, and concerning this my people who shall be scattered by them;
3 Verily, verily, I say unto you, when these things shall be made known unto them of the Father, and shall come forth of the Father, from them unto you;
4 For it is wisdom in the Father that they should be established in this land, and be set up as a free people by the power of the Father, that these things might come forth from them unto a remnant of your seed, that the covenant of the Father may be fulfilled which he hath covenanted with his people, O house of Israel;
5 Therefore, when these works and the works which shall be wrought among you hereafter shall come forth from the Gentiles, unto your seed which shall dwindle in unbelief because of iniquity;
6 For thus it behooveth the Father that it should come forth from the Gentiles, that he may show forth his power unto the Gentiles, for this cause that the Gentiles, if they will not harden their hearts, that they may repent and come unto me and be baptized in my name and know of the true points of my doctrine, that they may be numbered among my people, O house of Israel;
7 And when these things come to pass that thy seed shall begin to know these things--it shall be a sign unto them, that they may know that the work of the Father hath already commenced unto the fulfilling of the covenant which he hath made unto the people who are of the house of Israel.
8 And when that day shall come, it shall come to pass that kings shall shut their mouths; for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
9 For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.
10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.
11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.
12 And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.
13 Their hand shall be lifted up upon their adversaries, and all their enemies shall be cut off.
14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots;
15 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strongholds;
16 And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thy land, and thou shalt have no more soothsayers;
17 Thy graven images I will also cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee, and thou shalt no more worship the works of thy hands;
18 And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee; so will I destroy thy cities.
19 And it shall come to pass that all lyings, and deceivings, and envyings, and strifes, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, shall be done away.
20 For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from among my people, O house of Israel;
21 And I will execute vengeance and fury upon them, even as upon the heathen, such as they have not heard.
22 But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;
23 And they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem.
24 And then shall they assist my people that they may be gathered in, who are scattered upon all the face of the land, in unto the New Jerusalem.
25 And then shall the power of heaven come down among them; and I also will be in the midst.
26 And then shall the work of the Father commence at that day, even when this gospel shall be preached among the remnant of this people. Verily I say unto you, at that day shall the work of the Father commence among all the dispersed of my people, yea, even the tribes which have been lost, which the Father hath led away out of Jerusalem.
27 Yea, the work shall commence among all the dispersed of my people, with the Father to prepare the way whereby they may come unto me, that they may call on the Father in my name.
28 Yea, and then shall the work commence, with the Father among all nations in preparing the way whereby his people may be gathered home to the land of their inheritance.
29 And they shall go out from all nations; and they shall not go out in haste, nor go by flight, for I will go before them, saith the Father, and I will be their rearward.
Note that before there's a New Jerusalem:
1. "These sayings" (the Book of Mormon) will come from the gentiles to the remnant of Jacob (check)
2. The gentiles will be a mighty nation (America) (check)
3. The remnant of Jacob will be among the Gentiles in America (Are these the illegal immigrants already here?)
4. The gentiles get a chance to repent and come unto Christ (check)
5. If the gentiles reject the Gospel, then the remnant of Jacob will destroy them (That will be interesting)
6. The repentant Gentiles who are left get to assist* the remnant of Jacob build the New Jerusalem.

*The one thing I can't make sense of, is that Joseph Smith (and successors, if you believe it) were granted the keys of the gathering of Israel - in D&C 110:11:
After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
So.....how will LDScorp use the authority of the keys of gathering to assist the remnant of Jacob? We were always taught that Mormons would go back to MO in handcarts and build the New Jerusalem. No mention of "the remnant of Jacob" or "assisting". We were taught, basically, that we'd be in charge of everything (because "keys", right?). Anyway, 3 Ne 20-21 makes it pretty clear that repentant Gentiles are the sideshow, not the main event. Maybe the assistance will be transportation fees for the Remnant. Keys to the bus, if you will.

And anyway, yes - we don't talk about Zion anymore. which is a problem, if you ask me.

But RMN has made it clear that we don't believe in a literal gathering of Israel anymore: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... l?lang=eng
The choice to come unto Christ is not a matter of physical location; it is a matter of individual commitment. People can be “brought to the knowledge of the Lord”39 without leaving their homelands. True, in the early days of the Church, conversion often meant emigration as well. But now the gathering takes place in each nation. The Lord has decreed the establishment of Zion40 in each realm where He has given His Saints their birth and nationality. Scripture foretells that the people “shall be gathered home to the lands of their inheritance, and shall be established in all their lands of promise.”41 “Every nation is the gathering place for its own people.”42 The place of gathering for Brazilian Saints is in Brazil; the place of gathering for Nigerian Saints is in Nigeria; the place of gathering for Korean Saints is in Korea; and so forth. Zion is “the pure in heart.”43 Zion is wherever righteous Saints are. Publications, communications, and congregations are now such that nearly all members have access to the doctrines, keys, ordinances, and blessings of the gospel, regardless of their location.
AoF 10 must be a pesky thorn in his side, eh?

But seriously - if the Lord tells you to move to MO now; then, by all means - go. But if you're just pulling a stunt; pretending you've been called there for some kind of pre-show when you really haven't....well, you'll find out. :)

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

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mudflap wrote: March 27th, 2023, 1:12 pm Therefore, when these works and the works which shall be wrought among you hereafter shall come forth from the Gentiles, unto your seed which shall dwindle in unbelief because of iniquity;
6 For thus it behooveth the Father that it should come forth from the Gentiles, that he may show forth his power unto the Gentiles, for this cause that the Gentiles, if they will not harden their hearts, that they may repent and come unto me and be baptized in my name and know of the true points of my doctrine, that they may be numbered among my people, O house of Israel;
7 And when these things come to pass that thy seed shall begin to know these things--it shall be a sign unto them, that they may know that the work of the Father hath already commenced unto the fulfilling of the covenant which he hath made unto the people who are of the house of Israel.
8 And when that day shall come, it shall come to pass that kings shall shut their mouths; for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
9 For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.
These works....check.
And the works which shall be wrought among you hereafter.....future check.
Kings shutting their mouths.....future check.
Marvelous Work and a Wonder.....future check.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

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Christianlee wrote: March 4th, 2023, 2:09 pm Sometimes perfection comes from doing.
In a general sense, sure, but in this case we have to obey the word of the Lord and it was to not gather to Zion until the little season for waiting for her redemption is over. The servant in the parable in 101 initiates the gathering and he is identified in section 103 as Joseph Smith, however that is fulfilled.

BeingThere is correct, the waste places of Zion first have to become waste places.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by Shawn Henry »

MikeMaillet wrote: March 25th, 2023, 10:46 am The time of the Gentiles is now over
It is definitely near its end, but a light, the fulness of the gospel, has to break forth among them one more time. Once they reject it again, their destruction will happen.

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investigator
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

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Christianlee wrote: March 27th, 2023, 12:08 pm Traditionally, Jerusalem’s temple is the top of the mountain. I don’t see any role in Isaiah for America.

Isaiah 2:1-5

1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the Lord.
You don't see any role for Isaiah in America? Let me show you.
13 But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel.

14 And I will not suffer my people, who are of the house of Israel, to go through among them, and tread them down, saith the Father.

15 But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of my people, O house of Israel.

Salt that has lost it's savor are those who have had the everlasting covenant and rejected it (see 101: 39 below). Those who keep the covenant will assist the remnant in establishing Zion.

16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, thus hath the Father commanded me—that I should give unto this people this land for their inheritance.

This land is America.

Our Lord is talking to those on the American continent telling them that the words of Isaiah apply to them. America is a waste place of Jerusalem according to our Lord.


17 And then the words of the prophet Isaiah shall be fulfilled, which say:

18 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing, for they shall see eye to eye when the Lord shall bring again Zion.

19 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem; for the Lord hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.

20 The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of God.
Our Lord has applied the words of Isaiah to America.
101: 39 When men are called unto mine everlasting gospel, and covenant with an everlasting covenant, they are accounted as the salt of the earth and the savor of men;
Isaiah is prophesying both about old Jerusalem and the New Jerusalem temples being on the top of the Mountains. What has been shall be. Our Lord applies Isaiah prophesy to the New Jerusalem Temple.
9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

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tmac
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by tmac »

Key phrase:

If the Gentiles will repent and return unto me . . . .?

simpleton
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by simpleton »

Shawn Henry wrote: March 27th, 2023, 2:36 pm
Christianlee wrote: March 4th, 2023, 2:09 pm Sometimes perfection comes from doing.
In a general sense, sure, but in this case we have to obey the word of the Lord and it was to not gather to Zion until the little season for waiting for her redemption is over. The servant in the parable in 101 initiates the gathering and he is identified in section 103 as Joseph Smith, however that is fulfilled.

BeingThere is correct, the waste places of Zion first have to become waste places.
Yes yes yes yes yes. A must. And it will, sometime in the very near future..."tread the ashes of the wicked under the soles of your feet"....

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Being There
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by Being There »

Christianlee wrote: March 4th, 2023, 2:16 pm
simpleton wrote: March 4th, 2023, 2:10 pm
Christianlee wrote: March 4th, 2023, 2:09 pm
I am not sure that is true or that it is realistic.

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/ans ... _Christ.3F
Well, I am sure. Just be patient.
Patience is for wimps. The LDS Church has the means to fulfill the Lord’s commandments and begin to build Zion.
you really don't read the scriptures very much do you.
IT WON'T HAPPEN THAT WAY.

The LDS CORP. and it's members WILL NOT be the ones to build Zion.
It's ( leaders - The Drunkards of Ephraim) Isa. 28:2
will be hurled to the ground by the Lord. ********


as I commented to someone else.

"A kind of delusion sets in among ecclesiastical leader as the people subscribe to the new narrative that merely perpetuates the status quo: “These too have indulged in wine and are giddy with strong drink: priests and prophets have gone astray through liquor. They are intoxicated with wine and stagger because of strong drink; they err as seers, they blunder in their decisions. For all tables are filled with vomit; no spot is without excrement. Whom shall he give instruction? Whom shall he enlighten with revelation? Weanlings weaned from milk, those just taken from the breast? For it is but line upon line, line upon line, precept upon precept, precept upon precept; a trifle here, a trifle there” (Isaiah 28:7–10);

https://www.isaiahexplained.com/commentary/28
on the right side, second one down.
Isaiah 28 Analytical Commentary
**********
Isaiah 28 is all about - The Drunkards of Ephraim ( leaders of the church)
Isaiah 28 exposes the follies of the "Drunkards of Ephraim! "

Ephraim’s “fat proud ones” (vv 1, 4) include its “priests,” “prophets,” and “seers” (Isaiah 56:10-12). Intoxicated with the wine of self-deception (v 15), they “stray,” “err,” and “blunder” in their policies. Instead of obtaining revelation from Jehovah (vv 9, 14, 16, 26, 29), they water down his word until it is ineffectual in empowering his people (vv 10-13; Isaiah 32:6). The best their spiritual feasts offer is “vomit”—partly digested food regurgitated for Jehovah’s people to consume.

----------------------------------------------------

Isaiah 28
Ephraim and its prophets reap disaster for being delusional and for rejecting divine revelation.


I find it absurd that some, (the "all is well in Zion" crowd ) can say that Isaiah 28 has nothing to do with the church,
while the church itself says that Isaiah 29 does.

quote
"First we must note here that Isaiah is speaking to "the drunkards of Ephraim”.
There is no question that the Latter-Day Saints refer to themselves as “Ephraim” and there is no question that the Church teaches that the very next chapter of Isaiah (chapter 29) refers to our day or the coming forth of the Church, and the Book of Mormon. Therefore, it would seem quite logical that Isaiah 28 would also refer to Ephraim of our day."

taken from: LDS Seminary Student Study Guide

"Isaiah 29 is one place in the Bible where the Book of Mormon is referred to, even though it is not mentioned by name.
As you read this chapter, look for prophecies of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and the impact this book will have on the world."

If you want a big wake up call please read and study the 28th chapter of Isaiah,
it will reveal that every word applies to our church in these days
and to no other people.
Isaiah cites that this people would be given "precept upon precept;
precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little and there a little."
These identical words, were used by the Prophet Joseph Smith among his closing instructions
to the latter day saints, warning us to go forward not backward. D.C.128:21-22 ; 2Nephi 28:30


That's where the Lord has laid a trap for us.
Isaiah 28:13 "But the word of the Lord was unto them
precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little;
that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken,
and snared, and taken."


1 Woe to the garlands of glory
of the drunkards of Ephraim!
Their crowning splendor has become as fading wreaths
on the heads of the opulent overcome with wine.

Chapters 28-31, which form a didactic unit comprising Part VI of Isaiah’s Seven-Part Structure (Isaiah 28-31; 55-59),
each commence with a “woe” or covenant curse.
Ephraim’s chief sins of pride and drunkenness catch up with Israel’s birthright tribe in Jehovah’s Day of Judgment. Instead of acknowledging current inconvenient truths,
the people of Ephraim look back on past glories earned in more righteous times as if they still apply today. Ephraim’s self-deception, stemming from intoxication with “wine” at the highest levels, compounds the hard times that lie ahead
(v 7; Isaiah 56:10-12).

"Isaiah's prophecy concerning Ephraim consists mostly of censure.
Ephraim lives in the past, acting as if former glories were current ones:
“Woe to the garlands of glory of the drunkards of Ephraim!
Their crowning splendor has become as fading wreaths on the heads of the opulent overcome with wine” (Isaiah 28:1).
The king of Assyria—a new Flood (Isaiah 8:7–8)—will invade Ephraim’s land:

********
2.“My Lord has in store one mighty and strong: as a ravaging hailstorm sweeping down, or like an inundating deluge of mighty waters,
he will hurl them to the ground by his hand.

The proud garlands of the drunkards of Ephraim shall be trodden underfoot”(Isaiah 28:2–3)."

The imagery of “a ravaging hailstorm sweeping down” and of “an inundating deluge of mighty waters” identifies the king of Assyria/Babylon and his alliance of aggressor nations (Isaiah 8:7-8; 17:12; 18:2).
A second “one mighty and strong” in the Book of Isaiah is Jehovah’s servant, who makes an end of him at the last. Although Jehovah provides a refuge for a repentant remnant of his people against the storms of their enemies (Isaiah 4:6; 25:4-5; 57:13), he empowers the archtyrant—Jehovah’s (left) hand—over “the drunkards of Ephraim” to cast their illustriousness to the ground (cf. vv 1, 3).(Bold & Italics mine)

Isaiah 28

7 These too have indulged in wine and are giddy with strong drink:
priests and prophets have gone astray through liquor.
They are intoxicated with wine and stagger because of strong drink;
they err as seers, they blunder in their decisions.
8 For all tables are filled with vomit; no spot is without excrement.


As the political and ecclesiastical leaderships of Jehovah’s people always appear on a par (Isaiah 3:2-4; 9:14-16; 24:2), so Ephraim’s “fat proud ones” (vv 1, 4) include its “priests,” “prophets,” and “seers” (Isaiah 56:10-12).
Intoxicated with the wine of self-deception (v 15), they “stray,” “err,” and “blunder” in their policies.
Instead of obtaining revelation from Jehovah (vv 9, 14, 16, 26, 29), they water down his word until it is ineffectual in empowering his people (vv 10-13; Isaiah 32:6). The best their spiritual feasts offer is “vomit”—partly digested food regurgitated for Jehovah’s people to consume.



We are still satisfied with the milk portions - the ABC portions of the gospel.
We will not accept the meat portions of the gospel.

9 Whom shall he give instruction?
Whom shall he enlighten with revelation?
Weanlings weaned from milk,
those just taken from the breast?
10 For it is but line upon line, line upon line,
precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
a trifle here, a trifle there.


Although Jehovah wants to give his people “instruction” and “revelation,” they are but babes and sucklings who haven’t developed far enough to digest more than milk: “Everyone who uses milk is unskillful in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe” (Hebrews 5:13). Ephraim’s mode of learning is still “line upon line, line upon line, precept upon precept, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little” (saw lasaw saw lasaw qaw laqaw qaw laqaw ze‘ir sam ze‘ir sam). Assonance and alliteration parody their rote method of learning that consists of parroting back what their leaders teach.

13 So to them the word of Jehovah remained:
Line upon line, line upon line,
precept upon precept, precept upon precept;

a trifle here, a trifle there, that,
persisting, they might lapse into stumbling
and break themselves,
become ensnared and be taken captive
.


Instead of receiving a greater portion of the “word of Jehovah” through divine revelation,
the people of Ephraim remain ensconced in its lesser version as that is all they know.
The end result is their ruination:
“Sanctify Jehovah of Hosts, making him your fear, him your awe. And [to you] he will be a sanctuary, but to the two houses of Israel a stumbling block or obstructing rock, and a snare, catching unawares the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Many will stumble into them, and when they fall shall be broken, and when they become ensnared shall be taken captive” (Isaiah 8:13-15; cf. 5:13; 42:18-25).

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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

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investigator wrote: March 26th, 2023, 2:34 pm Why not Jackson county Missouri? Because there are no mountains in Missouri.
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
as far as Isaiah 2:2-3 and Mountain of the Lord's House.
It has NOTHING to do with the Salt Lake Temple;
as so many church leaders and members mistakenly assume.

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

the church has always been completely wrong in saying that
"the LORD’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains,
and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it."
saying that it is referring to the Salt lake temple.
it is not !


House in these scriptures refer to the U.S. (nation)

Salt Lake City "is NOT the place."
And because the word "mountain" is used; based on the scriptures and information below,
it could also be "between the seas in the glorious holy mountain" meaning
in the center of the U.S. - meaning, where Zion will be.

Isaiah 2:2 has nothing to do with the Salt Lake valley.

quote
" The Lord is speaking specifically of his people in this land.
We know that it speaks of this land because at the beginning of the chapter, one of the most often quoted scriptures but, unfortunately, not understood until we learned the meaning of the metaphors used here, clearly describes it:

Isaiah 2:2-3
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

This is a prophecy relating to the establishment of this nation, that is ,
the United States. In the manner of prophesying of the Jews (Isaiah), mountain is a metaphor for nation. If we substitute the word "nation" for "mountain" it begins to make sense. What he is saying is that in the latter days, the nation, wherein the Lord's house would be, would be born.
The Lord's house, referred to here, is not the Salt Lake Temple built in the tops of the mountains, as is commonly supposed.
The Lord's house, the House of Israel, will be in Jackson County or Zion from where the law will go forth to the world when Zion is established.

This nation would become the head of the nations or the most preeminent among them.
This has been fulfilled. Much of Ephraim has already gathered to this land and we await the fulfillment of the rest of this prophecy in the next few years, which will be discussed later.

In Isaiah 2:2-3, the Lord said that the mountain of the Lord's house would be established as the head of the mountains. Note in the correct translation, the term is "head of the mountains". In the KJV it says "in the top of the mountains." This is often misquoted by members "in the tops of the mountains" since this is assumed to be literal. But the meaning is the same in both versions.
Mountain is a metaphor for nation so either "head of the nations" or "top (singular) of the nations" makes sense in metaphorical meaning. The top of head mountain, refers to the nation which would become the preeminent nation in the world and here the nation or people of the Lord's house would be established. When analyzed, this is clearly a prophecy of the founding of this nation, the United States, and all nations would flow unto it. This has literally been fulfilled.
The prophecy does not refer to the building of a temple here. It means the nation of the Lord's house, which is the house of Israel. This land has been given to Israel for an everlasting inheritance and is in real fact, the nation of the Lord's house, the House of Israel.

I am sorry to have to dispel the erroneous interpretation of these verses, especially since so much money was spent on the film and publicity in 1993 when the 100th anniversary of the Salt Lake Temple was commemorated under the title
"The Mountain of the Lord's House." Nevertheless, it is so.
The United States was to become the top or head nation and preeminent among the other nations."


-------------------------------------------------------------------
I truly believe that as far as Isaiah 2:2-3
and in Daniel, when you read it, it's obvious that there can be no other definition for
"mountain" other than meaning "nation", or the nation where Zion will be.
How can "mountain" meaning "temple" make sense in these verses ?
Daniel
45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between
the seas in the glorious holy mountain;

and Isaiah 2:2-3
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be
established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills;
and all nations shall flow unto it.

This is 1 location - where "all nations shall flow unto it" - Zion or the nation where
Zion would be. ( " the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob " )
Whereas we have temples all over the world.
And If we are to assume that it's talking just about the Salt Lake temple,
why then would "all nations shall flow unto it". are they ? I don't think so.

also, Salt Lake City or the S.L. temple is NOT Zion.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob;
and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths:
for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
-----------------------

Avraham Gileadi

Isaiah 2:2-3
2 In the latter days the mountain of Jehovah’s houses hall become established as the head of the mountains;it shall be preeminent among the hills,and all nations will flow to it.

Isaiah’s locating the fulfillment of his prophecy in “the latter days” or “end-time” (’aharit hayyamim) ties his entire “vision” of events (Isaiah 1:1) to that time frame. One way Isaiah does this is to predict the same event several times in different combinations with other events, domino fashion, throughout his book. By that means, he establishes a single scenario of events, all of which connect to the present passage’s context of the “end-time.” Isaiah’s Seven-Part Structure—a synchronous literary structure that establishes a single scenario for his entire book—connects to the same end-time time frame.

The mountain of Jehovah’s house. While the word “mountain” may refer to a literal mountain, Isaiah additionally establishes a metaphorical meaning for this term by means of synonymous parallels that identify a “mountain” as a “nation” or “kingdom” (Isaiah 13:4; 64:1-2; cf. 52:7; and Babylon as a “destroying mountain,” Jeremiah 51:24-25). The “mountain of Jehovah’s house” thus signifies the nation of Jehovah’s house, in which the term “house” refers to his temple (Isaiah 66:1, 20). From that holy place, Jehovah directs the affairs of his people and of all nations (cf. Isaiah 6:1, 9-13; 56:6-8).

As the head of the mountains. When we apply the metaphorical meaning of this passage, we are reminded of Jehovah’s promise to his people Israel that if they would keep the terms of the Sinai Covenant they would become the head of the nations as a covenant blessing (Deuteronomy 28:13). A secondary meaning of the word “head” (ro’s)—also “chief” or “top”—on the other hand, alludes to a physical location. (While the Masoretic Text uses the preposition “in” [be], the older, Dead Sea scroll of Isaiah reads “as” [ke].) In the end-time context of this passage, therefore, both meanings may apply.

All nations will flow to it. To this prominent end-time nation, other nations and peoples are drawn. The verb “flow” or “stream” (nhr)—as in “nations” or “Gentiles” (goyim) “flowing” or “streaming”—is a word link that connects this passage to two others that predict “nations” or “Gentiles” (goyim) “flowing” or “streaming” (nhr). Both deal with the return of Jehovah’s people from among the nations in a new exodus to Zion (Isaiah 60:3-5; 66:12). Those passages thus suggest that verses 2-3 portray the new exodus to Zion, while that event is here given a time frame—the “end-time” (’aharit hayyamim).

3 Many peoples shall go, saying,Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah,to the house of the God of Jacob,that he may instruct us in his ways,that we may follow in his paths.For out of Zion shall go forth the law,and from Jerusalem the word of Jehovah.

While verse 2 speaks of “all nations,” verse 3 mentions “many peoples.” Because the return of Jehovah’s people in the new exodus to Zion occurs from among “all nations” (Isaiah 52:10-12), “many peoples” more definitively identifies remnants of all nations (Isaiah 11:11-12, 15-16; 49:22). The verb “go up” or “ascend” (‘lh) denotes the ascent of Jehovah’s people to a higher spiritual level (cf. Isaiah 40:31) and compares their return from exile to Israel’s ancient pilgrimage to the temple (Psalm 122:1-4; Isaiah 30:29) where the Levites taught Jehovah’s law and word (2 Chronicles 30:1, 22; 35:2-3).

The restoration of Jehovah’s law and word—the terms of his covenant—forms an integral part of “the restoration of all things” (Acts 3:21) that existed in ancient Israel. Together with temple ordinances and blessings pertaining to Jehovah’s covenant, the way is thus prepared for the long-awaited millennium of peace to begin (v 4). While the names Zion and Jerusalem identify a category of Jehovah’s people who repent (Isaiah 1:27; 40:1-2; 55:6-7; 59:20), they additionally allude to two millennial centers from which Jehovah’s law and word go forth to all nations (Isaiah 4:3; 12:4-6; 33:20; 51:4-5).

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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

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dreamtheater76 wrote: March 26th, 2023, 3:52 pm
Subcomandante wrote: March 26th, 2023, 1:09 pm
dreamtheater76 wrote: March 26th, 2023, 1:01 pm

I had a dream years ago where everything was blocked off by between Temple Square and through Beck Street and maybe further but no one could go up that way because hills and mountains had collapsed all through that area. Everything city and church buildings including the Temple were so badly damaged I wondered how long it would take to repair or if they were beyond repair. I used to live up north. For some reason I felt strongly I needed to move back where I grew up. Hopefully this was just a silly dream. But I know these UN 15 minute smart cities and Chinese social score that are being put in Utah by Governor Cox are the greatest threat we have ever faced locally.
This would be the results of a Chinese nuke detonated above Hill AFB. This would be from China's CURRENT, DOCUMENTED nuclear weapons.

Davis and Weber would be totaled and there would be damage up into extreme south Box Elder and extreme north SL Co.
Very similar to the scenario Joel Skousen has talked about if Hill AFB was targeted. I have a sister that lives just minutes away from there. Maybe I had that dream after hearing about this on World Affairs Brief on KTALK. I try not to think about it. Actually I have had a couple of dreams about it and another one where I saw a metal plant industrial area was destroyed that looked like the one not to far from that area. I also had a dream where Daybreak area was pretty much blown to kibbles and bits. That was during the time it was first being built under 20 years ago. So I was having these dreams before I ever thought of worrying about them. Probably just dreams. I hope.
as far as Hill AFB -
In Gayle Smith's Dream, she thinks that it could have been Hill AFB. *****

I believe both China and Russia will invade the U.S.


others have seen this in their dreams and visions
Russia and China invading the U.S.

Gayle Smith's Dream

I also saw an invasion of the country. I saw millions of Chinese coming in along the west coast
and down towards the Mexican border.
I also saw Russians invading the east coast at the same time.
Additionally I saw an army coming down from the north, but they didn't get close enough for me to see who they were. I saw thousands of parachutes until they just darkened the sky. I saw individuals coming down on ropes out of the helicopters all over. I saw the beginning of this invasion that there are nuclear explosions on both coasts.
*****
I also saw a nuclear explosion north toward SLC which could be Hill Air Force Base
but I really don't know for sure.

When I was shown these things I went to the Lord and asked how we could possibly survive all this.
I saw that this invasion takes place on a holiday when families get together and eat
which I believe could be either Thanksgiving or Christmas.


Sarah Menet (D&VI p. 91)

While viewing the cities of light (tent cities), my focus changed again and I became aware of missiles being launched and hitting US cities. I watch as mushroom clouds started forming over many areas of the states. Some of the clouds came from missiles that I knew were fired from Russia and others were not from missiles at all but from bombs that were already within the US. These latter bombs had been hidden tin trucks and cars and were driven to certain locations and then detonated.

I specifically saw Los Angeles, Las Vegas, and NYC hit with bombs. NYC was hit with a missile, but I think Los Angeles was hit by at least one truck bomb, it not several, because I did not see any missile. I also saw a small mushroom cloud form north of SLC without the aid of a missile.

At almost the same time and in the same locations as the mushroom clouds
I saw Russian and Chinese troops invading the US.
The Russians were parachuting into many spots along the eastern coast. I also saw them parachuting in Utah. Chinese troops were invading from the west coast near LA.
The Chinese and Russians were met with resistance from those who had survived the disease and bombs. I did not see any US military there at that time. I did not see much of this war, but was impressed that it was short in duration and that the troops lost and left.

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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

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FrankOne wrote: March 26th, 2023, 4:57 pm since I am a student of dreams/visions etc, I would never move to Missouri at this time. There are at least hundreds of futuristic accounts of the New Madrid fault going off which basically destroys the entire nation. Maybe Brigham got that one right? yellow dog, tail etc.
most of this is a quote from someone.
And I may have changed my beliefs on some things since I posted this years ago,
but, I was thinking that this scripture (in red - below) could be referring to the New Madrid fault line.

The Davidic King, being
The One Mighty and Strong who is the "man child" spoken of in Revelation 12
which refers to the sign in the heavens that heralded the beginning of his mission.
Revelation 12 sign -
The stars were positioned in Virgo fulfilling this on September 23, 2017 -
Revelation 12
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

1 Thessalonians 5:3
3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety;
then sudden destruction cometh upon them,
as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

"And now cometh the day of their calamity, even the days of sorrow,
like a woman that is taken in travail; and their sorrow shall be great
unless they speedily repent, yea, very speedily." (D&C 136:35)

Revelation 12
Verses 1 - the stars were in Virgo fulfilling this on September 23, 2017
verse 2 -
( "For when they shall say, Peace and safety;
then sudden destruction cometh upon them,
as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.")
verse 5 - the "man child". is the Davidic prophet, the one mighty and strong
whom the dragon wants to destroy as soon as he appears. (verse 3-4)
The red dragon is symbolic of kingdoms of the world and Satan.
It also corresponds to a constellation, Hydrus.
verse 6 - "the woman" is the righteous remnant,
"where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days." ( or 3 and a half years), equal to the time the beast has power and the duration of the tribulation.

This chapter is all about two end-times people:
The servant of God (also known as the one mighty and strong in other scriptures) and the servant of Satan (also known as the King of Assyria in Isaiah). The chapter weaves together imagery from a war in heaven that was fought before the world was created, signs in the heavens, and other imagery to explain how the servant of God and the servant of Satan will come on the scene and what their principle missions and dispositions will be.

As in other places, this Christ-symbology is used to describe the one mighty and strong, who is a type of Christ and has a holy mission more similar to Jesus' than anyone who has ever lived. This date provides a sign that marks the onset of the mission of the one mighty and strong.
Likewise, Satan symbology is used to describe the servant of the devil,
who is a type of Satan himself.

The man child is the one mighty and strong.
Some are thrown off by the phrase "rule all nations with a rod of iron." Yet, we know that God will appoint a man to sit on the throne of David, that this will be after God has thrown down all other nations, and that he will govern with the word of God ("rod of iron" in other places).

We are told in verse five that when Virgo brings forth Jupiter, the one mighty and strong will be caught up to God and his throne. It is important to distinguish the symbolism from the literal. Servants of God are caught up to his throne--literally carried to the throne of God--when they begin their ministry.
This happened, for example, with Isaiah and Ezekiel. When this happens, it will mark the beginning of Zion, which is in and around this servant.
The kingdom of God--this person and his following--will go into the wilderness as directed by God, to be protected from the desolation that comes after this point for three and a half years.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

This passage parallels the description of the coming forth of the one mighty and strong.
Here we read of the coming forth of the servant of Satan. The language used to describe this is a recounting of the war in heaven that occurred before the earth was inhabited. Just as the one mighty and strong represents Christ coming to the earth again (though he is not Christ), the servant of Satan represents Satan himself. Just as the one mighty and strong will accomplish the work of Jesus on the earth, the servant of Satan will accomplish the work of the devil.
The start of the mission of each of these people will dramatically affect
life on earth.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.


The kingdom of the devil will rise up and persecute the kingdom of God in an unprecedented manner as soon as the mission of these two begin. The calling of the one mighty and strong will initiate a physical gathering to places of safety in the wilderness. Meanwhile, Christians everywhere will be persecuted.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

This flood is not symbolic. The places of safety will be in the Rocky Mountains in the USA.
The flood could be caused by man-made nuclear tsunamis on the west coast of the US. Far fetched?
The Russians have designed and leaked equipment and plans to do just that.


16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood
which the dragon cast out of his mouth.


Again, this is not symbolic. There will be an earthquake that will cause the waters to subside somewhat.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

There will be a literal war between those who believe in God
and those who do not.

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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

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investigator wrote: March 27th, 2023, 10:28 am
MikeMaillet wrote: March 27th, 2023, 3:32 am
Christianlee wrote: March 26th, 2023, 2:38 pm

If that is true, Joseph Smith was a false prophet.
The Hebrew Prophets used much imagery in their writings. Mountains and hills are countries. Trees are people. Forests are cities... The mountain of the Lord's house is the country in which we find the temple. The US has been exalted above the other hills/countries and was created when many nations' peoples settled it. Also, the latter-day exodus will be comprised of people from around the world who will come to Zion. SLC may be located in some hills but these are not the hills mentioned in the scriptures.

Mike
Satan, Lucifer, Cain (SLC) ??😎

Salt Lake City is in a valley not the tops of the mountains and for that and other obvious reasons is disqualified for Zion. Sometimes Isaiah was literal not figurative. I believe this is one of those times. If we lack wisdom we can always ask God.
unfortunately, because the saints failed to establish Zion; as the Lord commanded,
the Lord withdrew from the church,
and the saints were driven West to a salty desert -which was very symbolic,
and which BTW is "NOT the place"


Salt Lake City "is NOT the place."

Interesting after being "cast out from the land of their inheritance" D&C 101:1
how the saints were driven to a salty desert - The Great Salt Lake Desert.
We were sent away from - not gathering to - the center place - Zion

When the Lord wanted to build up Zion - for the saints to be united - (United Order) living the Law of consecration and live " by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom, otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself", the saints failed to do so, and we have continued to fall more and more ever since.

D&C 105
4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;

D&C 101
1 Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted, and cast out from the land of their inheritance—
2 I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions;

quoting myself
Interesting after being "cast out from the land of their inheritance"
how the saints were driven to a salty desert - The Great Salt Lake Desert.
Hmm - wonder if that means anything ? Why Salt Lake City ?
a salty lake and desert.
In 3 Nephi Jesus refers to members as the “Salt of the earth:” "salt that hath lost its savor"

But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden underfoot of my people, O house of Israel. (3 Nephi 16:15)

When Christ uses the term “the salt of the earth”, He means His covenant people, as the following passage explains:

When men are called unto mine everlasting gospel, and covenant with an everlasting covenant, they are accounted as the salt of the earth and the savor of men;

They are called to be the savor of men; therefore, if that salt of the earth lose its savor, behold, it is thenceforth good for nothing only to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men.
(D&C 101:39-40)

D&C 84:
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened
because of unbelief, and because you have treated
lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the
whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon
the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation
until they repent and remember the new covenant,
even the Book of Mormon and the former
commandments which I have given them,
not only to say, but to do according to
that which I have written—
--------------------------------------------------------------
Doctrine and Covenants
Section 101:
1 Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted, and cast out from the land of their inheritance—

2 I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions;

6 Behold, I say unto you, there were jarrings,
and contentions, and envyings, and strifes,
and lustful and covetous desires among them;
therefore by these things they polluted their inheritances.

D&C 105:
2 "Behold, I say unto you, were it not for the transgressions of my people, speaking concerning the church and not individuals, they might have been redeemed even now.
3 But behold, they have not learned to be obedient to the things which I required at their hands, but are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their substance, as becometh saints, to the poor and afflicted among them;
4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;
5 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself.
6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer."

For this the Lord said that Zion would have to "wait for a little season"
D&C 105:
9 Therefore, in consequence of the transgressions of my people, it is expedient in me that mine elders should
wait for a little season for the redemption of Zion—

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MikeMaillet
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by MikeMaillet »

tmac wrote: March 27th, 2023, 8:52 pm Key phrase:

If the Gentiles will repent and return unto me . . . .?
I find it interesting that it is the Father that says this rather than the Saviour. The Father typically does not address Adam (which is many) because we rejected Him in the Garden. This is why we pray and do everything in the name of the Saviour, our intermediary with the Father. When Christ refers to the poor He refers to them as "my people" and He does this with the Israelites, depending on their faithfulness at the time. I don't recall ever seeing the Gentiles referred to as "my people" by the Saviour.

Mike

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tmac
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by tmac »

It is an interesting discussion, and in my view many, including BT, make some interesting points. But, from my perspective, we are still in a very murky place from which no clear pattern has emerged in terms of exactly when and how things will unfold.

There is (and always has been) a lot of interest in the DS and/or TOM&S, but until someone like that emerges as a true, Divine leader, I think we’re pretty much left floundering around, mostly speculating about what and when and how, and grasping at straws.

In terms of the premise of the OP, and why not just cut to the chase, and start gathering and build Zion in JC MO now (or yesterday), the sense I get is that such an effort would be an attempt to circumvent the refiners fire that will be necessary to prepare a remnant who my be worthy/capable of building Zion, whereas nothing (nobody) like that currently exists.

And, as JK described, in JC itself, I don’t see anything about the crowded, consumptive conditions that currently exist there that would be particularly attractive and/or appealing at this point — but in that sense it is really not all that much different that the SL Valley — a crowded, consumptive, modern urban area/environment that holds virtually zero appeal to me.

When I think of Zion as a productive, vibrant, self-sufficient place, it is a far cry from what currently exists in either of those places at this point. But, I think the place(s) may change when the people do.
Last edited by tmac on March 28th, 2023, 11:16 am, edited 2 times in total.

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mudflap
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by mudflap »

Being There wrote: March 27th, 2023, 10:56 pm D&C 105
4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;
This whole post is very good. I just wanted to point out that Mormons cannot be redeemed until they can do this at the very least:

Image

and we can't do that ^ until we stop getting into debt, stop working for Babylon (the 9-5 "job"), stop driving flashy cars - just stop. Is it any wonder the Utah is the MLM capital of the world? no, because we all love to speculate (invest money to try to get rich). We should all be desperately trying to get out of debt, and live within our means, get to know our neighbors, and really love them.

Anyway, again - good post. I hope we turn around as a people.

DesertWonderer2
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Re: Why not Jackson County, Missouri? Now.

Post by DesertWonderer2 »

Because the saints were absolved from building Zion there. . God moved on from that place. He changed the “center place” many times: NY to OH to JC to IL to SLC. The place is not important.

Going back is Mormon mythology. For the life of me, I don’t know why everyone ignore this scripture;
D&C 124

51 Therefore, for this cause have I accepted the offerings of those whom I commanded to build up a city and a house unto my name, in Jackson county, Missouri, and were hindered by their enemies, saith the Lord your God.

I also find this interesting:

84:4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.

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