Heard in Elder's Quorum today

[Lemarque]

"The church is building temples to keep the great and spacious building in check. Each temple dedication decreases Satan's power."

"We even hear the current leaders talk about their shortcomings, which I think are much exaggerated."

"Naysayers are saying the church is losing people in droves, but that isn't true. We are building more temples now than ever. Statistically the church is growing, it's not falling back."

A lot of comments from people about people they know leaving the church, and it's "because they read something on the Internet." It's becoming a consistent theme recently. The cracks are showing.

Also, I want to add my testimony that it sucks for the teacher and the class to do a 50 minute class on an 8-10 minute talk from conference.

[Ebenezer]

The spin in my EQ on the church numbers has been "yeah we're not growing like we used to, but we're doing WAY better than other churches."

[TwochurchesOnly]

The spin in my EQ on the church numbers has been "yeah we're not growing like we used to, but we're doing WAY better than other churches."

[endlessQuestions]

We had an amazing lesson today. 35 Elders of Israel discussing the important things we’ve been commanded to: namely, confession of our sins and repentance.

[Chip]

Until the elephants in the room are acknowledged, EQ will remain a spiritual taxidermy operation.

[Subcomandante]

Elder's Quorum focused on our need to be a Zion people, mentioning Bednar's talk. Isaiah was quoted.

[Niemand]

One of our most TBM members, who is gradually dying from all his jabs and boosters (wish I was joking), made a complaint in EQ and I had to field it.

He complained that we never did ward trips to the temple and that the temple cafeterias were shut. I said that neither of these were issues that had been decided at ward or stake level, deffo not the cafeterias because that was worldwide.

Got to kick the ball upstairs sometimes.

[Voyager]

A lot of comments from people about people they know leaving the church, and it's "because they read something on the Internet." It's becoming a consistent theme recently. The cracks are showing.

Those sorts of comments are being made regularly in our second-hour meetings and semi-regularly in sacrament meeting now, significantly more than I used to hear them. I've also noticed a lot of comments along the lines of "when people criticize the church or ask difficult questions you can't answer, you just have to faith/bear testimony, etc." But never once is there a mention of why people are asking questions or raising criticisms. Praises of Pres. Nelson are as lofty as ever, and not a single whisper of the SEC controversy.

[Lemarque]

A lot of comments from people about people they know leaving the church, and it's "because they read something on the Internet." It's becoming a consistent theme recently. The cracks are showing.

Those sorts of comments are being made regularly in our second-hour meetings and semi-regularly in sacrament meeting now, significantly more than I used to hear them. I've also noticed a lot of comments along the lines of "when people criticize the church or ask difficult questions you can't answer, you just have to faith/bear testimony, etc." But never once is there a mention of why people are asking questions or raising criticisms. Praises of Pres. Nelson are as lofty as ever, and not a single whisper of the SEC controversy.

The "old guard" of the church (in general I would say this is the people 50+ or so) really seem like they have no idea how to handle what is happening.

The instructor today told a story of exactly what you outline. His sister left the church because she thinks Joseph Smith was a liar. He said he bore his testimony to her and she didn't have a response to that.

They don't believe that anyone can have legitimate questions. They are all or nothing. Which doesn't leave much room for people like me who love the book of Mormon but have a hard time with current and recent church leaders.

[ransomme]

"The church is building temples to keep the great and spacious building in check. Each temple dedication decreases Satan's power."

"We even hear the current leaders talk about their shortcomings, which I think are much exaggerated."

"Naysayers are saying the church is losing people in droves, but that isn't true. We are building more temples now than ever. Statistically the church is growing, it's not falling back."

A lot of comments from people about people they know leaving the church, and it's "because they read something on the Internet." It's becoming a consistent theme recently. The cracks are showing.

Also, I want to add my testimony that it sucks for the teacher and the class to do a 50 minute class on an 8-10 minute talk from conference.

That is why I ditch the speeches and just use the scriptures to cover the theme of what ever speech they assign me.

[ransomme]

"The church is building temples to keep the great and spacious building in check. Each temple dedication decreases Satan's power."

"We even hear the current leaders talk about their shortcomings, which I think are much exaggerated."

"Naysayers are saying the church is losing people in droves, but that isn't true. We are building more temples now than ever. Statistically the church is growing, it's not falling back."

A lot of comments from people about people they know leaving the church, and it's "because they read something on the Internet." It's becoming a consistent theme recently. The cracks are showing.

Also, I want to add my testimony that it sucks for the teacher and the class to do a 50 minute class on an 8-10 minute talk from conference.

This is sad. Temples definitely are not what the Lord intended for us per the Lord's words in section 124 IMHO.

Personally I think they have become a huge misallocation of time, effort and money. Rather than investing in ancestor worship, what if the Church had actually cared for the poor and needy with all that time, effort and money?

Dead works for the dead do not help us become Zion. Instead, temples are basically place of escapism for people. We teach people to escape rather than actually bear one another's burdens.

The scriptures focus on the living, on the here and now of our mortal probation, whereas B.Youngs temple legacy does not. Instead we deprive ourselves of true service and love for others.

[Niemand]

That is why I ditch the speeches and just use the scriptures to cover the theme of what ever speech they assign me.

I've a talk to give soon on some topic, quoting someone else. I unintentionally ally lost the last topic (something by Gary E. Stevenson, I think), but this is always an issue for me... how much of their talk must I quote vs how much can I say?

[ransomme]

That is why I ditch the speeches and just use the scriptures to cover the theme of what ever speech they assign me.

I've a talk to give soon on some topic, quoting someone else. I unintentionally ally lost the last topic (something by Gary E. Stevenson, I think), but this is always an issue for me... how much of their talk must I quote vs how much can I say?

99.9% of the time I only quote the title and use some scriptures that they reference.

[Niemand]

That is why I ditch the speeches and just use the scriptures to cover the theme of what ever speech they assign me.

I've a talk to give soon on some topic, quoting someone else. I unintentionally ally lost the last topic (something by Gary E. Stevenson, I think), but this is always an issue for me... how much of their talk must I quote vs how much can I say?

99.9% of the time I only quote the title and use some scriptures that they reference.

That's what I try to do. I used to switch off when I heard, "I've been asked to talk about John D. Doe's conference talk on Being Obedient... and Pres. Doe says..."

[JohnnyL]

A lot of comments from people about people they know leaving the church, and it's "because they read something on the Internet." It's becoming a consistent theme recently. The cracks are showing.

I suggested once to the Church that they give pro-Church apologetic website links to professors, mission presidents, seminary and institute teachers, and missionaries.

I guess they didn't.

[Reluctant Watchman]

A lot of comments from people about people they know leaving the church, and it's "because they read something on the Internet." It's becoming a consistent theme recently. The cracks are showing.

I suggested once to the Church that they give pro-Church apologetic website links to professors, mission presidents, seminary and institute teachers, and missionaries.

I guess they didn't.

They should request that all church leaders spend an hour or two a week reading LDSFF so they can understand why people are leaving.

[Serragon]

"The church is building temples to keep the great and spacious building in check. Each temple dedication decreases Satan's power."

"We even hear the current leaders talk about their shortcomings, which I think are much exaggerated."

"Naysayers are saying the church is losing people in droves, but that isn't true. We are building more temples now than ever. Statistically the church is growing, it's not falling back."

A lot of comments from people about people they know leaving the church, and it's "because they read something on the Internet." It's becoming a consistent theme recently. The cracks are showing.

Also, I want to add my testimony that it sucks for the teacher and the class to do a 50 minute class on an 8-10 minute talk from conference.

This is sad. Temples definitely are not what the Lord intended for us per the Lord's words in section 124 IMHO.

Personally I think they have become a huge misallocation of time, effort and money. Rather than investing in ancestor worship, what if the Church had actually cared for the poor and needy with all that time, effort and money?

Dead works for the dead do not help us become Zion. Instead, temples are basically place of escapism for people. We teach people to escape rather than actually bear one another's burdens.

The scriptures focus on the living, on the here and now of our mortal probation, whereas B.Youngs temple legacy does not. Instead we deprive ourselves of true service and love for others.

I think a large part of this massive increase in temple building is because the church wants to get their embarrassment of riches into real estate, where it is less visible. I came to this conclusion because many of the recently announced temples make very little sense logistically. it used to be that temples were built in areas where they were needed, but it seems we are now in an era where many temples are being built in places where the presence of these new temples will actually make it more difficult to operate the existing ones with no real discernable benefit.

When people see a billion dollar rainy day fund, many have a strong negative reaction to it. But put that billion dollars into temples and the associated real estate, and it becomes much more palatable.

[Niemand]

A lot of comments from people about people they know leaving the church, and it's "because they read something on the Internet." It's becoming a consistent theme recently. The cracks are showing.

I suggested once to the Church that they give pro-Church apologetic website links to professors, mission presidents, seminary and institute teachers, and missionaries.

I guess they didn't.

Control freakery is their undoing. They at least allowed Terryl Givens a chance to tour around chapels in this country. I wish that we had more of that kind of thing.

The most impressive work seems to be on linguistic formations within the Book of Mormon. It is deceptively simple on some levels and yet has a lot of hidden features to it.

[JohnnyL]

A lot of comments from people about people they know leaving the church, and it's "because they read something on the Internet." It's becoming a consistent theme recently. The cracks are showing.

I suggested once to the Church that they give pro-Church apologetic website links to professors, mission presidents, seminary and institute teachers, and missionaries.

I guess they didn't.

Control freakery is their undoing. They at least allowed Terryl Givens a chance to tour around chapels in this country. I wish that we had more of that kind of thing.

The most impressive work seems to be on linguistic formations within the Book of Mormon. It is deceptively simple on some levels and yet has a lot of hidden features to it.

Yeah, I think "control freakery" might have hurt the Church in more than one way more than once, lol.

Well, they killed a lot of the apologetics by getting rid of FARMS, changing the entire aspect of it so there is a lot less, if at all, apologetics; getting rid of Peterson and others, a person or two dying, and hiring an incompetent and detestable man to be in charge of it all. Many of the professors now pale in comparison to those in the past (the Book of Mormon discussions on youtube are dull), and many back in the day weren't very good to being with.

At least there are a few videos/ podcasts that many lay members listen to, I know it has helped them (in general), and the Church hasn't yet told people to stop doing it. (Another one of my beefs--priestcraft seems to be okay, but not energy healing. I go into Deseret Book and feel nauseous and about puke each time, but I guess if they want to... Maybe it's just me and my personal feelings about it all.)

[JohnnyL]

A lot of comments from people about people they know leaving the church, and it's "because they read something on the Internet." It's becoming a consistent theme recently. The cracks are showing.

I suggested once to the Church that they give pro-Church apologetic website links to professors, mission presidents, seminary and institute teachers, and missionaries.

I guess they didn't.

They should request that all church leaders spend an hour or two a week reading LDSFF so they can understand why people are leaving.

I think it would be wise for some to do so, yes. I am confident that the COB/etc. secretaries block much of the letters that LDSFF types might send in.

[Serragon]

A lot of comments from people about people they know leaving the church, and it's "because they read something on the Internet." It's becoming a consistent theme recently. The cracks are showing.

I suggested once to the Church that they give pro-Church apologetic website links to professors, mission presidents, seminary and institute teachers, and missionaries.

I guess they didn't.

They should request that all church leaders spend an hour or two a week reading LDSFF so they can understand why people are leaving.

I am pretty sure their conclusion would be that LDSFF would be one of the causes of their leaving, not that it is a reflection of the thoughts and ideas of those who leave.

Most of the middle layer managers in the church measure righteousness on how well you obey the person above you. The very idea that you would question the FP is considered the pinnacle of blasphemy.

You would be disciplined quicker by publicly proclaiming at fast and testimony meeting that Russell M. Nelson is not a prophet than you would for stating that Christ was not actually divine.

[Rumpelstiltskin]

"The church is building temples to keep the great and spacious building in check. Each temple dedication decreases Satan's power."

"We even hear the current leaders talk about their shortcomings, which I think are much exaggerated."

"Naysayers are saying the church is losing people in droves, but that isn't true. We are building more temples now than ever. Statistically the church is growing, it's not falling back."

A lot of comments from people about people they know leaving the church, and it's "because they read something on the Internet." It's becoming a consistent theme recently. The cracks are showing.

Also, I want to add my testimony that it sucks for the teacher and the class to do a 50 minute class on an 8-10 minute talk from conference.

With the rise of the king of Assyria/Babylon prophesied by Isaiah (the end-time dictator), there will be incredible persecution of anyone who is a true Christian. These temples (and chapels) will be either destroyed by the dictator or will be turned into something like a brothel. As for the regurgitating of conference talks, I like this advice given in 1855. Note that the "published discourses" are the general conference talks.

"Thus we might go on reviewing the important subjects discussed in these published discourses, but we say to the Saints, if you would drink at the fountain of intelligence, if you would keep the fire of revelation burning brightly within you, if you would keep pace with the rapid progress of the kingdom, read and study for yourselves. The work of the Lord waits for no one" (Millennial Star, Vol 17, No 42, Oct 20, 1855, p 665).

[Reluctant Watchman]

Here's an interesting post from Reddit w/ regards to people leaving the church:

The lesson in priesthood recently was on Stevenson's talk about "nourishing and bearing your testimony".

The instructor started with a teary eyed account of two of his good friends who had reached out to him within the past few weeks and letting him know they no longer believe the church is what it professes to be.

He doubled and tripled down on the need for all of us to do more to protect our testimonies. He also said that he was becoming more bold in telling people wherever he can that he "KNOWS" that the church is true and that what Joseph said he saw he saw.

There were other stories within the quorum from people sharing their stories of their friends and family "losing" their testimonies.

One theme I hated was the undertone that once you leave you are now somehow less than you were before and less than members of the church.

There was a lot of demonization of those who have left.

- Making bad life decisions..... like...... drinking coffee!!!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHH. What hororrs.

- The members having to force themselves to still interact with them..... because..... the church was the only thing they had in common???????

- Lots of comments implying that those who leave aren't good any more. Wordly. Lost. Selfish. Blinded by the world. Etc.


I spoke up and shared a few thoughts during the lesson.

- Don't bear your testimony in a way that it feels accusational. Like I am right and you are wrong. If you want to share spiritual experiences that are meaningful to you, go ahead. But if in your mind you are trying to guilt them in to returning to the church you are just being self righteous. Figure out a way to find empathy for your friends who have left.

- Don't forget that many who leave the church are those who believed the most. It was finding out that the simple sunday school teachings of truth just aren't true in the way the church teaches them. Your friends may know more about church doctrine than you do. So have a bit of humility when you engage with your friends.

In a break out session one brother doubled down that prophets are so amazing and if you study harder you can find that they were teaching about things years before they became societal issues. Then he gave the example of pornography or the proclamation on the family.

When I had my chance to share I repeated that sunday school truth claims just aren't true. And I used the example of prophet will never lead the church astray and then pointed to anything BY taught.

I loved the look of a deer in the head lights from this brother.

Short story. Lots of members leaving. Current members freaking out and have no clue. Current members still trashing all of your reputations that you are a sucky person and it takes a lot of effort to still want to engage with you.

[Teancum1]

That is why I ditch the speeches and just use the scriptures to cover the theme of what ever speech they assign me.

I've a talk to give soon on some topic, quoting someone else. I unintentionally ally lost the last topic (something by Gary E. Stevenson, I think), but this is always an issue for me... how much of their talk must I quote vs how much can I say?

I’ve committed to only speak the words of Christ, faith in him and personal repentance and the doctrine of Christ, no matter what topic I am “assigned”.

[Chip]

I suggested once to the Church that they give pro-Church apologetic website links to professors, mission presidents, seminary and institute teachers, and missionaries.

I guess they didn't.

Control freakery is their undoing. They at least allowed Terryl Givens a chance to tour around chapels in this country. I wish that we had more of that kind of thing.

The most impressive work seems to be on linguistic formations within the Book of Mormon. It is deceptively simple on some levels and yet has a lot of hidden features to it.

Yeah, I think "control freakery" might have hurt the Church in more than one way more than once, lol.

Well, they killed a lot of the apologetics by getting rid of FARMS, changing the entire aspect of it so there is a lot less, if at all, apologetics; getting rid of Peterson and others, a person or two dying, and hiring an incompetent and detestable man to be in charge of it all. Many of the professors now pale in comparison to those in the past (the Book of Mormon discussions on youtube are dull), and many back in the day weren't very good to being with.

At least there are a few videos/ podcasts that many lay members listen to, I know it has helped them (in general), and the Church hasn't yet told people to stop doing it. (Another one of my beefs--priestcraft seems to be okay, but not energy healing. I go into Deseret Book and feel nauseous and about puke each time, but I guess if they want to... Maybe it's just me and my personal feelings about it all.)

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