Paul’s Eucharist would have been abhorrent

[TheDuke]

Except why would a Hebrew prophet have been foretold the name of the Davidic Messiah in Greek?

I have pointed this out in all the ancient scriptures JS translated. Even those from Nephi himself. They wouldn't use Greek or understand it. As I mentioned the earliest account (by calendar) of this would be Bro of J to whom Jehovah said, after seeing his finger, that he is "Jesus Christ". A name he never used, at least anciently (i.e. before Greek translation).

IMO the scriptures are not written word-for-word, but have the translators (and their may be many, JS, Mormon, Moroni, several Nephi's, etc...) that recorded via their own best understanding. And JS translated using language we could relate to, not Nephi's real words. BTW, I have stated several times there is not chance in Hades that Nephi recorded on 60# of gold his own diary in is own day in his own words. they didn't have that much gold, i.e. there were only about 40-50 people and most were infighting and they moved numerous times in old and new world settings in one mans lifetime. Hence my continued challenge for those quoting Jacob so word-for-word given his "nation" could not have been 80 people, and his gold and linens, could not have existed at his time.

There are many other examples in scripture, the steel bow, horses in America, etc... that are words we can relate to vs. what was really written. I wouldn't get hung up on it and if you are then you've some how lost the spirit of it all, as NOTHING we are taught is fully and completely accurate. Everything comes second, third, fourth hand, written and lost and rewritten. The true principles will be known by HG all others may or may not touch our senses.

As far as sacrament. The Lord has commanded me personally to take it. I cannot know more than that. However, he never told me how often. This was my challenge during the COVID lockdown. The Lord and I discussed it several times. I know it is of him and is his ordinance. How, why, where and how often, well .... he didn't say that to me, so I will not go into that here. But, if you don't believe it, ok. If you think the spirit is telling you it is wrong.......... we're listening to different spirits.

[kirtland r.m.]

The word "Eucharist" refers to the Sacrament of the Eucharist, which is the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ truly present on the altar under the appearances of bread and wine.

The Eucharist - USCCB
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops
https://www.usccb.org › eucharist

And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. See 1 Corinthians 11:24-29

Some latter day light on this subject.

"O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it; that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him, and keep his commandments which he has(hath Book of Mormon) given them, that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen." (Book of Moroni 4:3, Doctrine and Covenants 20:77).


"O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee, in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this water(wine, Book of Mormon) to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen." (Book of Moroni 5:2, Doctrine and Covenants 20:79).


Judaism was the earliest oppressor of Christianity, and became the instigator and abettor of the succeeding atrocities incident to pagan persecution. Open and vigorous hostility of the Roman powers against the Christian Church became general during the reign of Nero, (beginning about A.D. 64), and continued with occasional respites of a few months or even years at a time to the close of Diocletian’s reign (about A.D. 305). The inhuman cruelty and savage barbarity to which were subjected those who dared profess the name of Christ during these centuries of heathen domination are matters of accepted history. See The Great Apostasy, chapters 4 and 5.

...She(Rome) altered the ordinance of baptism, destroying its symbolism and associating with it imitations of pagan rites; she corrupted the Sacrament of the Lord’s Supper and befouled the doctrine thereof by the vagary of transubstantiation... See The Great Apostasy, 8:16–19. As to “supererogation” see page 590 herein.

Here is the deep dive on this subject. Here is the link, and here is a sample after the linkhttps://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_practices.shtml.

The phrase, "this is my body" translates the Greek phrase τουτο εστιν το σωμα μου touto estin to swma mou, literally, "this is the body of me." A rather technical argument has been made to support transubstantiation by some Catholic writers. The argument is that, as the demonstrative "this" τουτο is a demonstrative neuter singular, it cannot refer to the term "bread" αρτος artos which is masculine, but the noun "body" σωμα which is neuter. As a result of this, and the fact that it is coupled with the verb ειμι eimi "to be," Christ is teaching that the bread becomes the body of Jesus, with an alternative translation being, "this [new entity] is the body of me."

It is correct that the referent for the demonstrative "this" is "body." However, to read "is" in a literalistic way as to argue that Transubstantiation is in view in the narratives is vacuous.[/color]

In Greek grammar, there is what is called a "interpretive ειμι," wherein the verb ειμι, often in conjunction with τουτο or τι, has the definition of "meaning" or "[this] means."

Bottom line, again, the restoration doctrine information is correct.

[Pazooka]

The word "Eucharist" refers to the Sacrament of the Eucharist, which is the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ truly present on the altar under the appearances of bread and wine.

The Eucharist - USCCB
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops
https://www.usccb.org › eucharist

And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. See 1 Corinthians 11:24-29

Some latter day light on this subject.

"O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it; that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him, and keep his commandments which he has(hath Book of Mormon) given them, that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen." (Book of Moroni 4:3, Doctrine and Covenants 20:77).


"O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee, in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this water(wine, Book of Mormon) to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen." (Book of Moroni 5:2, Doctrine and Covenants 20:79).


Judaism was the earliest oppressor of Christianity, and became the instigator and abettor of the succeeding atrocities incident to pagan persecution. Open and vigorous hostility of the Roman powers against the Christian Church became general during the reign of Nero, (beginning about A.D. 64), and continued with occasional respites of a few months or even years at a time to the close of Diocletian’s reign (about A.D. 305). The inhuman cruelty and savage barbarity to which were subjected those who dared profess the name of Christ during these centuries of heathen domination are matters of accepted history. See The Great Apostasy, chapters 4 and 5.

...She(Rome) altered the ordinance of baptism, destroying its symbolism and associating with it imitations of pagan rites; she corrupted the Sacrament of the Lord’s Supper and befouled the doctrine thereof by the vagary of transubstantiation... See The Great Apostasy, 8:16–19. As to “supererogation” see page 590 herein.

Here is the deep dive on this subject. Here is the link, and here is a sample after the linkhttps://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_practices.shtml.

The phrase, "this is my body" translates the Greek phrase τουτο εστιν το σωμα μου touto estin to swma mou, literally, "this is the body of me." A rather technical argument has been made to support transubstantiation by some Catholic writers. The argument is that, as the demonstrative "this" τουτο is a demonstrative neuter singular, it cannot refer to the term "bread" αρτος artos which is masculine, but the noun "body" σωμα which is neuter. As a result of this, and the fact that it is coupled with the verb ειμι eimi "to be," Christ is teaching that the bread becomes the body of Jesus, with an alternative translation being, "this [new entity] is the body of me."

It is correct that the referent for the demonstrative "this" is "body." However, to read "is" in a literalistic way as to argue that Transubstantiation is in view in the narratives is vacuous.[/color]

In Greek grammar, there is what is called a "interpretive ειμι," wherein the verb ειμι, often in conjunction with τουτο or τι, has the definition of "meaning" or "[this] means."

Bottom line, again, the restoration doctrine information is correct.

This thread is in response to the comments in 10 minutes worth of video that you apparently didn’t review.

[kirtland r.m.]

The word "Eucharist" refers to the Sacrament of the Eucharist, which is the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ truly present on the altar under the appearances of bread and wine.

The Eucharist - USCCB
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops
https://www.usccb.org › eucharist

And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. See 1 Corinthians 11:24-29

Some latter day light on this subject.

"O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it; that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him, and keep his commandments which he has(hath Book of Mormon) given them, that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen." (Book of Moroni 4:3, Doctrine and Covenants 20:77).


"O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee, in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this water(wine, Book of Mormon) to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen." (Book of Moroni 5:2, Doctrine and Covenants 20:79).


Judaism was the earliest oppressor of Christianity, and became the instigator and abettor of the succeeding atrocities incident to pagan persecution. Open and vigorous hostility of the Roman powers against the Christian Church became general during the reign of Nero, (beginning about A.D. 64), and continued with occasional respites of a few months or even years at a time to the close of Diocletian’s reign (about A.D. 305). The inhuman cruelty and savage barbarity to which were subjected those who dared profess the name of Christ during these centuries of heathen domination are matters of accepted history. See The Great Apostasy, chapters 4 and 5.

...She(Rome) altered the ordinance of baptism, destroying its symbolism and associating with it imitations of pagan rites; she corrupted the Sacrament of the Lord’s Supper and befouled the doctrine thereof by the vagary of transubstantiation... See The Great Apostasy, 8:16–19. As to “supererogation” see page 590 herein.

Here is the deep dive on this subject. Here is the link, and here is a sample after the linkhttps://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_practices.shtml.

The phrase, "this is my body" translates the Greek phrase τουτο εστιν το σωμα μου touto estin to swma mou, literally, "this is the body of me." A rather technical argument has been made to support transubstantiation by some Catholic writers. The argument is that, as the demonstrative "this" τουτο is a demonstrative neuter singular, it cannot refer to the term "bread" αρτος artos which is masculine, but the noun "body" σωμα which is neuter. As a result of this, and the fact that it is coupled with the verb ειμι eimi "to be," Christ is teaching that the bread becomes the body of Jesus, with an alternative translation being, "this [new entity] is the body of me."

It is correct that the referent for the demonstrative "this" is "body." However, to read "is" in a literalistic way as to argue that Transubstantiation is in view in the narratives is vacuous.[/color]

In Greek grammar, there is what is called a "interpretive ειμι," wherein the verb ειμι, often in conjunction with τουτο or τι, has the definition of "meaning" or "[this] means."

Bottom line, again, the restoration doctrine information is correct.

This thread is in response to the comments in 10 minutes worth of video that you apparently didn’t review.

I am not responding to the video, I am responding to the forum posters on this thread.

[Pazooka]

Except why would a Hebrew prophet have been foretold the name of the Davidic Messiah in Greek?

I have pointed this out in all the ancient scriptures JS translated. Even those from Nephi himself. They wouldn't use Greek or understand it. As I mentioned the earliest account (by calendar) of this would be Bro of J to whom Jehovah said, after seeing his finger, that he is "Jesus Christ". A name he never used, at least anciently (i.e. before Greek translation).

IMO the scriptures are not written word-for-word, but have the translators (and their may be many, JS, Mormon, Moroni, several Nephi's, etc...) that recorded via their own best understanding. And JS translated using language we could relate to, not Nephi's real words. BTW, I have stated several times there is not chance in Hades that Nephi recorded on 60# of gold his own diary in is own day in his own words. they didn't have that much gold, i.e. there were only about 40-50 people and most were infighting and they moved numerous times in old and new world settings in one mans lifetime. Hence my continued challenge for those quoting Jacob so word-for-word given his "nation" could not have been 80 people, and his gold and linens, could not have existed at his time.

There are many other examples in scripture, the steel bow, horses in America, etc... that are words we can relate to vs. what was really written. I wouldn't get hung up on it and if you are then you've some how lost the spirit of it all, as NOTHING we are taught is fully and completely accurate. Everything comes second, third, fourth hand, written and lost and rewritten. The true principles will be known by HG all others may or may not touch our senses.

As far as sacrament. The Lord has commanded me personally to take it. I cannot know more than that. However, he never told me how often. This was my challenge during the COVID lockdown. The Lord and I discussed it several times. I know it is of him and is his ordinance. How, why, where and how often, well .... he didn't say that to me, so I will not go into that here. But, if you don't believe it, ok. If you think the spirit is telling you it is wrong.......... we're listening to different spirits.

You might be on to something. Maybe you’re listening to the spirit that is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has (Joseph Smith) and maybe I’m listening to the spirit described by the Hebrews:

The memory of the Holy Spirit as the Mother of Jesus is preserved in the writings of the Hebrew Christians. Origen often quoted from the Gospel of the Hebrews, which is now lost apart from quotations such as his. In this Gospel, Jesus says: ‘Even now did my mother the Holy Spirit take me by one of my hairs and carry me away to the great Mount Tabor’, possibly a reference to Jesus being driven into the desert by the Holy Spirit after his baptism.[11] Jerome, who is the main source of quotations from this Gospel, shows that the voice at Jesus’ baptism was the voice of the Spirit. ‘According to the Gospel written in the Hebrew speech… “It came to pass, when the Lord was come up out of the water, the whole fount of the Holy Spirit descended and rested upon him and said unto him: My son, in all the prophets I was waiting for thee, that though shouldst come and I might rest in thee. For thou are my rest, thou art my first begotten son that reignest for ever.”[12] The Gospel of Philip preserves another interesting tradition from the Hebrew Christians, for whom Spirit was a feminine noun. They said that the Spirit coming on Mary (Luke 1.35) could not be described as conception; presumably it was creation, as in Genesis 1. ‘Some say Mary conceived by the holy Spirit. They are in error. They do not know what they are saying. When did a woman ever conceive by a woman? ~ Margaret Barker, Where Shall Wisdom Be Found?

Sounds like your spirit is less experienced than mine.

[TheDuke]

Except why would a Hebrew prophet have been foretold the name of the Davidic Messiah in Greek?

I have pointed this out in all the ancient scriptures JS translated. Even those from Nephi himself. They wouldn't use Greek or understand it. As I mentioned the earliest account (by calendar) of this would be Bro of J to whom Jehovah said, after seeing his finger, that he is "Jesus Christ". A name he never used, at least anciently (i.e. before Greek translation).

IMO the scriptures are not written word-for-word, but have the translators (and their may be many, JS, Mormon, Moroni, several Nephi's, etc...) that recorded via their own best understanding. And JS translated using language we could relate to, not Nephi's real words. BTW, I have stated several times there is not chance in Hades that Nephi recorded on 60# of gold his own diary in is own day in his own words. they didn't have that much gold, i.e. there were only about 40-50 people and most were infighting and they moved numerous times in old and new world settings in one mans lifetime. Hence my continued challenge for those quoting Jacob so word-for-word given his "nation" could not have been 80 people, and his gold and linens, could not have existed at his time.

There are many other examples in scripture, the steel bow, horses in America, etc... that are words we can relate to vs. what was really written. I wouldn't get hung up on it and if you are then you've some how lost the spirit of it all, as NOTHING we are taught is fully and completely accurate. Everything comes second, third, fourth hand, written and lost and rewritten. The true principles will be known by HG all others may or may not touch our senses.

As far as sacrament. The Lord has commanded me personally to take it. I cannot know more than that. However, he never told me how often. This was my challenge during the COVID lockdown. The Lord and I discussed it several times. I know it is of him and is his ordinance. How, why, where and how often, well .... he didn't say that to me, so I will not go into that here. But, if you don't believe it, ok. If you think the spirit is telling you it is wrong.......... we're listening to different spirits.

You might be on to something. Maybe you’re listening to the spirit that is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has (Joseph Smith) and maybe I’m listening to the spirit described by the Hebrews:

The memory of the Holy Spirit as the Mother of Jesus is preserved in the writings of the Hebrew Christians. Origen often quoted from the Gospel of the Hebrews, which is now lost apart from quotations such as his. In this Gospel, Jesus says: ‘Even now did my mother the Holy Spirit take me by one of my hairs and carry me away to the great Mount Tabor’, possibly a reference to Jesus being driven into the desert by the Holy Spirit after his baptism.[11] Jerome, who is the main source of quotations from this Gospel, shows that the voice at Jesus’ baptism was the voice of the Spirit. ‘According to the Gospel written in the Hebrew speech… “It came to pass, when the Lord was come up out of the water, the whole fount of the Holy Spirit descended and rested upon him and said unto him: My son, in all the prophets I was waiting for thee, that though shouldst come and I might rest in thee. For thou are my rest, thou art my first begotten son that reignest for ever.”[12] The Gospel of Philip preserves another interesting tradition from the Hebrew Christians, for whom Spirit was a feminine noun. They said that the Spirit coming on Mary (Luke 1.35) could not be described as conception; presumably it was creation, as in Genesis 1. ‘Some say Mary conceived by the holy Spirit. They are in error. They do not know what they are saying. When did a woman ever conceive by a woman? ~ Margaret Barker, Where Shall Wisdom Be Found?

Sounds like your spirit is less experienced than mine.

go with it then.

I'll follow the spirit that teaches me love and to follow Jesus and be patient. and to believe JS revealed truth. If you think that isn't true then follow only teachings from 4000 to 2000 years ago, written many times in many languages over revelation, but we all must choose the spirit we follow. I guess the real measure in this life is truly following whatever it is we believe.