More important information on the visit of the Savior to President Lorenzo Snow in the S.L. Temple

[simpleton]

kirtland, I would love your opinion on this:

These types of quotes, especially the Packer one, leave me feeling cold and dead inside.

Here's what I know, because I've spent hundreds of hours documenting it:

A VERY large number of our leaders have entered into oaths that are based on a death thesis. These oaths are not with our Savior, but are instead with organizations that teach and practice the philosophies of men mingled with scripture. They literally engage in EXACTLY the kind of behavior my Book of Mormon tells me to keep an eye out for, and then when they're exposed, they abuse the people exposing them.

A few of these men, from time to time, throw out these mealy-mouthed quotes that infer that maybe, perhaps, at some point, possibly, they've actually been in the presence of the resurrected being known as Jesus Christ.

But the preponderance of evidence seems to show that the majority of them never have, and never have claimed, to have had that experience.

What's a guy to do? Truly?

" If any man lacketh wisdom, let him ask of God".......

The purpose of a "testator", the purpose of a "witness" the reason for an "apostle" and even a lowly "missionary" is to bear witness of JC. But, you cannot bear witness of someone or something that you have not seen or heard with your own eyes, ears.
As Oliver Cowdery very plainly explained at the beginning, those chosen apostles could absolutely not go and bear record, until they received a personal witness of JC Himself. That is still requisite. And it is eternal.

[endlessQuestions]

kirtland, I would love your opinion on this:

These types of quotes, especially the Packer one, leave me feeling cold and dead inside.

Here's what I know, because I've spent hundreds of hours documenting it:

A VERY large number of our leaders have entered into oaths that are based on a death thesis. These oaths are not with our Savior, but are instead with organizations that teach and practice the philosophies of men mingled with scripture. They literally engage in EXACTLY the kind of behavior my Book of Mormon tells me to keep an eye out for, and then when they're exposed, they abuse the people exposing them.

A few of these men, from time to time, throw out these mealy-mouthed quotes that infer that maybe, perhaps, at some point, possibly, they've actually been in the presence of the resurrected being known as Jesus Christ.

But the preponderance of evidence seems to show that the majority of them never have, and never have claimed, to have had that experience.

What's a guy to do? Truly?

" If any man lacketh wisdom, let him ask of God".......

The purpose of a "testator", the purpose of a "witness" the reason for an "apostle" and even a lowly "missionary" is to bear witness of JC. But, you cannot bear witness of someone or something that you have not seen or heard with your own eyes, ears.
As Oliver Cowdery very plainly explained at the beginning, those chosen apostles could absolutely not go and bear record, until they received a personal witness of JC Himself. That is still requisite. And it is eternal.

What if I have been asking God, and the answers consisted of dreams to pay attention how far the Church has drifted out of configuration, and reams of verifiable documents that show our hierarchy has been infiltrated by secret society members who have no qualms testifying about things that simply are not true (like Constantine is a patron saint, for example)?

I'm not sure why a person would believe human beings "absolutely could not go and bear record" falsely, when our standard works are full of examples of people doing just that.

[endlessQuestions]

“We do not talk of those sacred interviews that qualify the servants of the Lord to bear a special witness of Him, for we have been commanded not to do so. But we are free, indeed, we are obliged, to bear that special witness.” Boyd K. Packer, “A Tribute to the Rank and File of the Church,” Ensign (May 1980): 86.

Joseph Smith was never so shy about coming forward, and did so at far more personal risk to himself than any current apostle would have.

I think that's what concerns me about the Packer quote so much.

I'm not saying they WEREN'T commanded to not share their sacred experiences.

I'm just saying it doesn't align with anything I can find in my standard works. I know of no prophet who was visited by the Lord and told to NEVER reveal it during their ministry. I definitely could have missed it, though, because I haven't focused my mind on that question and done a deep dive. Would love to hear if I'm wrong here.

[TheDuke]

I have no idea if Snow saw Jesus or not. I don't accept the testimony as written. It appears to come out 30 years after his death. He had 42 children, not sure how many grandchildren but maybe 200? He told one about his experience. Never put it in his journal. Never told other apostles? Seems all the stories come from a single source. But it if makes you feel good and the spirit testifies (it doesn't to me, one way or the other). It is good for you.

But, it doesn't seem how the Lord would provide a testimony to me. Plus, what was revealed? reorg the 12 right away. Seems that can be a simple answer to prayer, and if it was true, it would have been the premise to the other 13 to do it right away, not to be kept privately, IMO.

I have the same issue with many of these supposed visits. Ok, to me they (first one especially) should start with forgiveness, and love, etc... then if for personal value, perhaps nothing, but if for knowledge, some real knowledge given that is more than just simple things prayers could answer. Like all the JS and BY showing up but no new things learns or reorganized, etc... when JS got revelation or saw the Lord, things came of it. Not a story but a teaching, doctrine, etc... Not a touchy-feely story, like from young womens conference. Not trying to be negative, just trying to point out the Lord is usually consistent, things that are not consistent draw a red flag, unless the spirit testifies of it personally. If on the other hand, doctrine or knowledge results, then I study it more carefully.