Welcome to the Dark Side... er um Heretic Forum. Yeah, just pray.

[UncleJack]

Well, as my first post in the heretic forum, this seems to be the most important topic to cover first.

I get it, people want to know stuff, or make stuff up, or are just plain wrong for whatever reason. False doctrine is not actually something to be feared though. No, I am not saying it will always be right either, but stay with me for a minute and keep reading before you trail off in thought. Along the lines of the rules for this heretic forum is that of being kind to one another, there should be no forcing your view on others, as there is no actual need to force correction or proof. Why do we not need to "stop stuff" when we perceive false doctrine will destroy us all? Because "...such shall be reclaimed." (D&C 50:7) The spirit is not only the one who proves, but corrects. Thus the followers of God shall not be deceived when they use the spirit for themselves, and will also be reclaimed through further use of the spirit if actually "off track." Sometimes asking the right question or even the same question in a different way will bring a different answer, some of such topics will be found in this forum, and some of my posts may even go into why different answers come to the same topic (people ask different versions of the question, focusing on different things).

Getting answers is actually available to all. An unknown general authority has said "the heavens are open, and secrets of the universe are for the taking." The only thing that stands in your way, more often then not, is you. It doesn't always mean you are sinful either, again, sometimes you are simply just asking the wrong question, or doing it wrong.

While not speaking of revelation or the ability to hear the clear revelatory "voice of the spirit" in your life, one should have an understanding of the basic functions of the spirit available to all. Thus, more often then not the only thing you get out of the spirit is a testament feeling of "yes, that is correct" and really nothing else. Thus asking actual questions in yes or no form really helps utilize the basics.

Ask if something is true, then ask if something is not true, each as an individual prayer asking for the seal of the spirit at the end of the prayer, asking only one question in the prayer. For example pray "Father in Heaven, if <X> is true, please testify to me now, in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen." If you don't receive a confirmation, ask the inverse of the question in another prayer, if something is not true. If you don't receive an answer to either one, pray a final time and ask if you are asking the wrong question or something, or otherwise can not be answered, and you should get a testament of truth to the final one when the others have no answers. I suppose if you don't even know what a testament feels like, I would probably ask God to only show you what a testament feels like without any other questions in the prayer, and wait for the answer for a minute.

It is important to know that God does not say no through simple feelings. He could say no through the voice of the spirit with further revelation, but as a general rule of thumb, God never works through negatives of any kind. Feeling bad is not of God in general, and definitely does not qualify as a testament of the spirit. If you were actually told no, through the revelatory voice of the spirit, the confirmation of "yes, this is correct" would be given at the same time or it was not of God, and should not be credited to God. Giving Satan the ability to say no, as if God was saying it, will lead to really bad stuff in life, so don't open that door by giving negative feelings or fears the meaning of being a sealed and trusted message from God. Always and only trust the "Seals" of God in your life. The seal of the spirit is one. The seal of the Mantle of the Prophet is another. Other seals also exist, yet none are negative.

One of the most common mistakes in phrasing questions in prayer is that of trying to give your agency back to God. He won't take it back, you will get silence. A common example would be the question "should I marry" so and so. This takes agency away from you. While you can get numerous answers to things like, "will they be a good spouse," "will they be a good parent," and so forth, God can indeed vouch for them if that was what you wanted to actually know. You can also rephrase it to an I have made my choice, "may I have your blessing" to marry so and so question, and you will pretty much always get an answer to that.

That being said, weird stuff will be found here in this forum. Non main stream stuff is kind of the definition of heretic. There is actually even main stream heretic stuff, that people have always been doing wrong collectively that is not remotely doctrinal, congrats on that by the way, being a heretic and not even knowing it... yet.

[Thinker]

…False doctrine is not actually something to be feared though. No, I am not saying it will always be right either…
… there should be no forcing your view on others, as there is no actual need to force correction or proof…
…The spirit is not only the one who proves, but corrects…

…Sometimes asking the right question or even the same question in a different way will bring a different answer…
… "the heavens are open, and secrets of the universe are for the taking." The only thing that stands in your way, more often then not, is you. It doesn't always mean you are sinful either, again, sometimes you are simply just asking the wrong question, or doing it wrong.

… Thus, more often then not the only thing you get out of the spirit is a testament feeling of "yes, that is correct" and really nothing else. Thus asking actual questions in yes or no form really helps utilize the basics. ... If you were actually told no, through the revelatory voice of the spirit, the confirmation of "yes, this is correct" would be given at the same time or it was not of God, and should not be credited to God…

One of the most common mistakes in phrasing questions in prayer is that of trying to give your agency back to God. He won't take it back, you will get silence. A common example would be the question "should I marry" so and so. This takes agency away from you. While you can get numerous answers to things like, "will they be a good spouse," "will they be a good parent," and so forth, God can indeed vouch for them if that was what you wanted to actually know. You can also rephrase it to an I have made my choice, "may I have your blessing" to marry so and so question, and you will pretty much always get an answer to that.

…congrats on that by the way, being a heretic and not even knowing it... yet.

Hi Uncle Jack! From one heretic to another, I thank you for your helpful suggestions.

I like how you approached “false doctrine” as something not to be feared, nor blindly accepted. 1 of the greatest commandments & a big part of our purpose is to love the God of truth, which means seeking after truth, wherever it’s found. There is a real ongoing spiritual battle so some dogmas accepted as “known” truth are actually mixed with lies, which is apparent when studying religious origins. Jacob wrestled with his ideas of God & thus his name became Is-Ra-El. There are little map markers for us like that, if we dare to consider personal applications.

Each of us are agents to ourselves. When my kids fight & complain about the other, I tell them, “Nobody can be controlled by remote control. Don’t worry so much about them. Just focus on what you think, say & do.” At the same time, we can and do influence one another. The church has no shame in trying to force their views on members, investigators etc. “Every member a missionary” may apply to the entire world of children of God - each of us having something unique to offer.

How awesome that you shed light on something so often ignored - the specifics of how the Spirit communicates. I agree that God is not going to take our free agency & that mostly the Spirit confirms GOoD. However, there are times when the Spirit warns. Emotional intelligence & self awareness are important to distinguishing between emotions & the Spirit. Also, they are important to understanding that it’s not all-or-nothing. Eg., Say you pray about marrying a person & get a yes. Then it ends in abuse/affairs & divorce. That “yes” didn’t mean it was going to all be 100% great - but rather at the time, maybe you needed to experience that - to learn and grow, even though growing pains can hurt a lot.

[UncleJack]

I am not really saying the spirit can not speak warnings, but I would go and say not everyone gets warnings, thus more than likely, it would be revelation (as a gift not everyone has), and not the basics. But the difference between such warnings vs basic feelings is always going to be the seal of the spirit. If you trust anything other than the seals, it is no longer guaranteed to be God speaking to you. Every story of a warning I have ever heard, was that of a voice of the spirit, revelation-like, and if you were to ask specifically, they always seem to also reply there was a clear thought, that instantly could be said to be common sense (knowing exactly what to do too), that was also at the same time a “testament of the spirit” feeling, sealing it unto them. Thus, common sense logic and the gut feeling of peace testified unto them, was how it was sealed to their “...heart and mind.” But regardless of if it is revelation or not, there will never be a time it is not sealed when it is God.

Seems some more clarification could come in handy too. While I do plan on other topics that may explain further, what was said already could use some examples. Imagine, if you will, someone who suddenly greatly feared Satan telling them to leave church now. All they would feel is impending doom at church and I must leave now stuff. They do so, and by doing so attract attention from others, that something must be wrong, so someone follows them out to see if they are OK. Satan then tells said person, "See I told you, you ARE being followed, keep RUNNING!" So, without any questioning, because they think “God” told them something, they blindly obey fear, and more and more, time and time again they keep causing self-fulfilling prophecies to come true. A distrust or hatred of people could then develop and, because of said paranoia, you could then be actually acting weird (paranoid), causing people to look at you funny, thus once again proving it to be another destruction in your life (another self-fulfilling prophecy, “ah, see how they are looking at you”). On and on it goes.

I would say there is absolutely nothing wrong with running away to a safe place to figure it out there in prayer (perhaps if it was God or not, or a valid fear or not). You can always come back and claim you needed to pray if someone took offense to your flight. They at least should not take it personally after such an explanation with no details. Love always fixes perceived unlovable insults, so communication is really key to everything there.

The issue is that of giving credit and power of “God is my fear” to Satan... well... is there anything that would get his rocks off more? You just made him God of your life, even calling him God, his ultimate dream (if you were to guess at the motive for his version of the plan). The open, unabated fears in your life would absolutely destroy you.

Then again, considering that God says no, actually goes against agency in most cases and the idea of letting you make mistakes to learn and grow. Forcing you to be good and warning you to be good is obviously two different things. God also told us to be like him, and tells us to avoid the appearance of evil; so, exactly how evil is saying no, if not taking agency from you? Some people will still see it as being forced, even if the forced intention was not there. The ways giving credit of things to God can go wrong are truly endless, and are as unique as you all collectively are.

The "natural consequences" of feeling bad is basically just you (not God currently speaking some message to you), and it can be a very good thing to listen to, no doubt about it. Not having conflict between you and your subconscious is the whole point of many counseling options (new subjects may come on this topic later). Yet again, even basic feelings without fear can let Satan have “God” false authority over your life, thus my main point is: never associate “God is speaking” to anything that is not sealed and proved to be as such. It is the most basic of associations that can be made that can ruin everything. Trust only the seals of God. No matter what or how you search it out in your mind, with or without help, only trust the seals of God, or do not say God anything about it. The assignment in your mind of God to things not sealed is ultimately destructive in the end because it opens the described door. Thus pray and ask Him yourself lots of things. The manner I described is optional, but does indeed help the process along.

A seal is by definition a token of proof with a promise. Each of God's seals is slightly different at times, but the seal of the spirit is that of truth; a token of proof it is correct. I am saying it is also a token of proof that God says it is correct, and the aspect of God is sealing this unto you, or this is trustworthy to be credited to God. We use seals every day of our lives. We seal food and medicine a token of proof, that said items essentially have a promise of not been tampered with and so fourth. The prophet, when using his prophetic mantel, is sealed to “not lead you astray” when he gives messages to you as the only “Mouth Piece of God” on earth. Thus, ideas conflicting with the prophet's seal tend to not actually get sealed by the spirit on your own, unless you are asking different questions then what the prophet was addressing, then it may be possible it is sealed being looked at differently. Resolving conflicting seals is tricky, especially if the testament was for part of your query, and not the whole aspect of your full idea. Thus the great idea to ask if there is more, and is this correct, that the church put out there when it comes to revelation, out side of the basics to the spirit I was speaking of.

God has ways of knowing what is right for you, and the reason some of you have never had a no in your life, could be profound in and of its self; as you would run the wrong way with it, and he won't do that to you. Or maybe you do not have the gift of revelation, and that is totally OK, you can work with what you do have. Even the basics have basics, but all the iterations after that becomes personal, in the sense of being customized for you. All said possibilities fall into mentioned categories of the Gifts of God in the scriptures though, so a wide range with yet another set of basics.

I would also say, that I had no intention to imply that people should not speak out at all. I saw this possibility on a re-read. The idea of attacking or anger is not necessary to the process though, and will undo or prevent the good you are trying to do. By all means, present ideas for the spirit to testify to. We all need to get out of our head at times. New thoughts are very welcome here in the heretic forum. One more specific (optional) idea of dealing with being upset or angry before posting is to stop, take some slow deep breaths while you ask yourself if it is actually necessary, and if it is helpful. If it is not both, don't do it, the anger is not worth the outcome in most to all cases. The outcome is often opposite of what you intended too, as we are very complicated creatures like that.

Most of the time, I will even use the spirit as my editor and chief when writing things. Not to say everything I write is Gods word, sealed unto me as truth, thus must be to you as well. But more along the lines of questions such as; Are there errors, is this as true as I can make it? Is there more, and applicable to this topic? Do I have your blessing to say such things? It is not in his name, or on behalf of him, but it is put out there for God to speak to you himself. Thus, checking if it even testifies as true to you is a good thing, if the point was to put it out there for others to consider like me. Personally, I am good with “good credit” going to God when you get a testament too, yet there are bound to still be mistakes, and I do not like the idea of being labeled as “Speaking for God” in your mind either, as that would just put more evil at my door... if people blindly trust one person without question and without seals of God for themselves, then Satan only has to destroy one person to take the flock of sheep down with them. There really is not any possible “good” way to associate the “God speaks” idea to any non “Seal of God” idea. Thus, I can take credit for the errors I make, you can give the Glory to God for everything else, many times, it isn't even me personally anyway, just an example of people. Or you can go to the beat of your own drum without crediting me or getting me involved at all, I am totally OK with that, leave me out of it, then I will never see it as a personal attack. That is just how people tend to usually work... (usually, sigh, so done explaining possibilities, shut up brain...).

Thus, like my last “spirit is my editor” example, can everyone now see, or imagine ways that even basic feelings of a negative nature can be labeled as God, and yet somehow used to take them so far off the path, to paths clearly labeled by others as “the blind that can not see,” unrighteous dominion, and holier then thou ego problems? Such have something wrong at the basics level, pretty much every time, and each time, would be not trusting or using the seals of God correctly or at all anymore if they self identified AS the truth, or think to themselves they have heard this before and don't need to listen again now. Some of them are feelings, some are nothing more then wrong association, not saying this is one cause, just one possibility with many possible horrible endings. Trust the seals of God, and be not lead astray.

Not feeling the spirit at all should also be clarified, but I will have to start a new topic on that sometime as “being unworthy” is not the only reason. Thus another reason to not judge... Eh, I will do that next, so comments on this can be in that topic. Don't comment about this topic here, it is coming soon, health permitting....

[TheDuke]

The issue with following the spirit in off-normal doctrines and such is which spirit. I'm all for following the spirit by the way, it is after all the only way to know truth. However a discussion of "the spirit' is in order.

If I try and follow Joseph's teachings. I see that all spiritual teachings come to our spirit via our bodies.

So, FIRST, we need to communicate between our physical body/mind and our personal spirit (together our soul). That is we must register the spiritual interactions, while in this telestial body, by our physical interaction with our own spirit. So, spiritual manifestations are physical in nature, feelings, sights, sounds, taste, smell, etc... Hence they are combinations of every day senses. So, any two people (per D&C 9) will or may recognize things differently.

SECOND, talking technically on the spirit side, that is spirit communicating with spirit, our spirit being one end of the communication. Is accomplished by some sort of spiritual equivalent to light that shines, seemingly instantly or faster than the speed of light, between spirits. This light may be from god, then it is specifically the "light of truth". It may be from some where else, ie. another spirit, then it is NOT the LoT. Light and LOT is everywhere. It is like the Internet. That is an infrastructure. I mean we use the Internet but we don't talk to the Internet (unless we're working IP layer protocols), we communicate "over" the Internet. Same with Light of Truth. Riding on the LoT is the Light of Christ that communicates to every person, you cannot be alive without it. And there is the Holy Ghost, which rides on the LoT but has specific messages and content and purposes. Also we may talk directly with god (any of them I guess), but mainly Jesus, sometimes the Father; and we often call this the spirit. Actually we call all the layers and all the communications "the spirit" often other times "the HG" other times just "revelation".

I think we need to parse this technically a bit deeper. I like the start from John Pratt on LoC and LoT, etc... Not understanding this and not understanding that "truths" may be or appear different to different people at different times is the key to lack of communication and misunderstanding "the spirit" IMO.

, but in this life we are limited to a subset of this LoT called the Light of Christ.