Timeline of Infallibility

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Fight for the right
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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by Fight for the right »

Watchman. How many times are we going to here about the Prophet not leading us astray or leading us astray. I very rarely see anyone comment about A MAN OR WOMEN SPEAKING WITH THE POWER OF THE HOLY GHOST. WHEN THAT HAPPENS HE OR SHE SPEAKS THE MIND AND WILL OF THE LORD. Mind you one must keep himself or herself worthy of to receive the manifestations. It's simple. I'll follow anyone who speaks with that power to the grave. I'm not going to go on about the current prophet or any other one.
Last edited by Fight for the right on February 7th, 2023, 6:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Fight for the right wrote: February 7th, 2023, 6:36 am Watchman. How many times are we going to here about the Prophet not leading us astray or leading us astray. I very rarely see anyone comment about A MAN OR WOMEN SPEAKING WITH THE POWER OF THE HOLY GHOST. WHEN THAT HAPPENS HE OR SHE SPEAKS THE MIND AND WILL OF THE LORD. Mind you one must keep himself or herself worthy of to receive the manifestations. It's simple. I'll follow anyone who speaks with that power to the grave. I'm not going to go on about to the current prophet or any other one.
I’ve told friends of mine that I’d be back in the pews next Sunday if the church would simply teach this principle. If they just quoted 2 Nephi 28:31, it would set the groundwork for a conversation. Then we could begin to ask, “Well, did you receive a witness of the Holy Ghost in what that man or woman said?” Then we could say… “No, I didn’t, let me explain what the Spirit taught me.” It opens the door for dialogue.

Oh, and “how many times…”? I don’t think they are done polishing this turd yet. :)

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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

I added a new quote to my timeline document:

Oct. 2014 – M. Russell Ballard, YSA Devotional

“We don’t have to question anything in the church, don’t get off into that. Just stay in the Book of Mormon. Just stay in the Doctrine & Covenants. Just listen to the prophets. Just listen to the apostles. We won’t lead you astray, we cannot lead you astray.”

Here's the link again, this false doctrine is one of the worst taught by the church: https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/infal ... y-timeline

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Thinker
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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by Thinker »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 6th, 2023, 5:04 pm These men speak with a forked tongue. "We're not infallible" "We can never lead you astray." SMH.
Most bishops I’ve had have been fine, but 1 manipulated and bullied me - first for paying tithing to the poor instead of the church… and then when he questioned me in his office during my child’s interview, I explained that the church leaders are not using funds honestly. And he said “the leaders don’t make mistakes.” He didn’t say they are infallible but what he said meant the same thing.

Infallible: incapable of making mistakes

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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by Thinker »

When I saw the title for this thread, I though it sounded like a song. Any song writers in the house? Here’s a start if anyone wants to borrow it… 😁


🎵🎵🎵🎵🎵🎵🎵🎵🎵🎵🎵🎵🎵🎵


They don’t touch sin with a 10-foot pole.
Their sins somehow go down a dark hole.

Join the club and you don’t need to pick up a club.
When they declare you clean, you don’t need to scrub!

You’ve got a caddy?
Who’s your real daddy?

Give ‘em your money and shut up.
Enjoy the baby food in their small cup.

It is not really incapability.
It’s a timeline of infallibility.

TwochurchesOnly
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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by TwochurchesOnly »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 26th, 2023, 8:31 am I added a new quote to my timeline document:

Oct. 2014 – M. Russell Ballard, YSA Devotional

“We don’t have to question anything in the church, don’t get off into that. Just stay in the Book of Mormon. Just stay in the Doctrine & Covenants. Just listen to the prophets. Just listen to the apostles. We won’t lead you astray, we cannot lead you astray.”

Here's the link again, this false doctrine is one of the worst taught by the church: https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/infal ... y-timeline
"JUST STAY in the Boat -- the good ship !! Where else will you go?"

Shaffer89
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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by Shaffer89 »

TwochurchesOnly wrote: October 26th, 2023, 11:21 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 26th, 2023, 8:31 am I added a new quote to my timeline document:

Oct. 2014 – M. Russell Ballard, YSA Devotional

“We don’t have to question anything in the church, don’t get off into that. Just stay in the Book of Mormon. Just stay in the Doctrine & Covenants. Just listen to the prophets. Just listen to the apostles. We won’t lead you astray, we cannot lead you astray.”

Here's the link again, this false doctrine is one of the worst taught by the church: https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/infal ... y-timeline
"JUST STAY in the Boat -- the good ship !! Where else will you go?"
I know I may be misinterpreting your post but I actually agree with that statement.

If God provides some greater source of truth than the restored gospel I will happily jump ship once I feel like there is something better.
My trouble is that everyone, in my experience, who leaves is always upset over things or disenchanted and hoping to find happiness from another church or another lifestyle, they haven't actually found greater light and knowledge, they are just upset about the imperfections of the current ship and don't want to be on it. Now I do think more people should genuinely reflect and decide if the LDS church is the boat they want to be on, since I think alot members would be happier living a more "born again christian" belief than living the skewed version of the gospel so many Mormons seem to live. But I haven't found evidence yet that there is a better guide to the truth than the teachings of the LDS church

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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Shaffer89 wrote: October 26th, 2023, 12:21 pm If God provides some greater source of truth than the restored gospel I will happily jump ship once I feel like there is something better.
My trouble is that everyone, in my experience, who leaves is always upset over things or disenchanted and hoping to find happiness from another church or another lifestyle, they haven't actually found greater light and knowledge, they are just upset about the imperfections of the current ship and don't want to be on it. Now I do think more people should genuinely reflect and decide if the LDS church is the boat they want to be on, since I think alot members would be happier living a more "born again christian" belief than living the skewed version of the gospel so many Mormons seem to live. But I haven't found evidence yet that there is a better guide to the truth than the teachings of the LDS church
When a person reads the words of Christ and sees the exact opposite of those teachings in the LDS church, do you think they are happier knowing what Christ taught, or the philosophies of men?

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BeNotDeceived
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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by BeNotDeceived »

Shaffer89 wrote: October 26th, 2023, 12:21 pm
If God provides some greater source of truth than the restored gospel I will happily jump ship once I feel like there is something better … But I haven't found evidence yet that there is a better guide to the truth than the teachings of the LDS church.
https://discussmormonism.com/search.php ... ds=TWM+384

Shaffer89
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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by Shaffer89 »

BeNotDeceived wrote: October 26th, 2023, 12:34 pm
Shaffer89 wrote: October 26th, 2023, 12:21 pm
If God provides some greater source of truth than the restored gospel I will happily jump ship once I feel like there is something better … But I haven't found evidence yet that there is a better guide to the truth than the teachings of the LDS church.
https://discussmormonism.com/search.php ... ds=TWM+384
I'm not sure what I should be looking for here, but I do think it's funny that in a cursory read this quote stood out: "It's not enough just to point away to long discussions that have been published somewhere else."

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BeNotDeceived
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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by BeNotDeceived »

Shaffer89 wrote: October 26th, 2023, 12:44 pm
BeNotDeceived wrote: October 26th, 2023, 12:34 pm
Shaffer89 wrote: October 26th, 2023, 12:21 pm
If God provides some greater source of truth than the restored gospel I will happily jump ship once I feel like there is something better … But I haven't found evidence yet that there is a better guide to the truth than the teachings of the LDS church.
https://discussmormonism.com/search.php ... ds=TWM+384
I'm not sure what I should be looking for here, but I do think it's funny that in a cursory read this quote stood out: "It's not enough just to point away to long discussions that have been published somewhere else."
TWM is the Davidic Servant, who posted here as Michael Sherwin. Every word in your quote said it was too common to search. Please supply a link from whence your quote came.

Shaffer89
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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by Shaffer89 »

BeNotDeceived wrote: October 26th, 2023, 1:06 pm
Shaffer89 wrote: October 26th, 2023, 12:44 pm
I'm not sure what I should be looking for here, but I do think it's funny that in a cursory read this quote stood out: "It's not enough just to point away to long discussions that have been published somewhere else."
TWM is the Davidic Servant, who posted here as Michael Sherwin. Every word in your quote said it was too common to search. Please supply a link from whence your quote came.
Oh hey I remember that username! and I'm sorry I didn't mean that as a specific point I just thought it was interesting that of all the comments I was skimming through I saw that one, Idk what it was even referencing in those pages.
I remember just beginning to learn about the DS before I stopped studying, I'm sure I wasn't in a place to learn the truth at that time either, but I will have to look into it.
Is the idea that the DS is here and she is the next step or something greater than the current church? Or is it just the information and prophecy etc regarding the DS and their role?

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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Shaffer89 wrote: October 26th, 2023, 1:50 pm .
Shaffer89... not gonna respond to my question?

"When a person reads the words of Christ and sees the exact opposite of those teachings in the LDS church, do you think they are happier knowing what Christ taught, or the philosophies of men?"

Are you even aware that a contradiction exists between the two?

Shaffer89
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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by Shaffer89 »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 26th, 2023, 1:57 pm
Shaffer89 wrote: October 26th, 2023, 1:50 pm .
Shaffer89... not gonna respond to my question?

"When a person reads the words of Christ and sees the exact opposite of those teachings in the LDS church, do you think they are happier knowing what Christ taught, or the philosophies of men?"

Are you even aware that a contradiction exists between the two?
Hey I'm sorry my memory tells me I wrote out this long response with questions amd other comments but now I'm not sure if I just never sent it or if im just insane amd didnt type out anything. Ha work got crazy on me but once I'm done I'll get a response back to you.

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BeNotDeceived
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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by BeNotDeceived »

Shaffer89 wrote: October 26th, 2023, 1:50 pm
BeNotDeceived wrote: October 26th, 2023, 1:06 pm
Shaffer89 wrote: October 26th, 2023, 12:44 pm
I'm not sure what I should be looking for here, but I do think it's funny that in a cursory read this quote stood out: "It's not enough just to point away to long discussions that have been published somewhere else."
TWM is the Davidic Servant, who posted here as Michael Sherwin. Every word in your quote said it was too common to search. Please supply a link from whence your quote came.
Oh hey I remember that username! and I'm sorry I didn't mean that as a specific point I just thought it was interesting that of all the comments I was skimming through I saw that one, Idk what it was even referencing in those pages.
I remember just beginning to learn about the DS before I stopped studying, I'm sure I wasn't in a place to learn the truth at that time either, but I will have to look into it.
Is the idea that the DS is here and she is the next step or something greater than the current church? Or is it just the information and prophecy etc regarding the DS and their role?
https://discussmormonism.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=158072&p=2848722&hilit=Opportunity#p2848722 wrote:
First there was a 5.7 then a 6.5 so now all I'll do is give an opportunity to the Spirit to speak up with a 7.3 and fully take the hit if it does not and say I must have been deceived by a false spirit all this time.
⬆️ Apparently another group,
can’t answer the simple question,
was the stated opportunity accepted?

Timekeeper posted MakerBee posts shortly before Hamas attacked Israel.

Picture #384 represents, both a tribute and a warning that is falling on deaf ears.

How long, will The Lord stay The Spirit that responds to opportunities granted it. :?:

The record speaks for itself =~ Res Ispa got his tounge caught by a cat, or what’s up with that. :?

Shaffer89
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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by Shaffer89 »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 26th, 2023, 12:29 pm
Shaffer89 wrote: October 26th, 2023, 12:21 pm If God provides some greater source of truth than the restored gospel I will happily jump ship once I feel like there is something better.
My trouble is that everyone, in my experience, who leaves is always upset over things or disenchanted and hoping to find happiness from another church or another lifestyle, they haven't actually found greater light and knowledge, they are just upset about the imperfections of the current ship and don't want to be on it. Now I do think more people should genuinely reflect and decide if the LDS church is the boat they want to be on, since I think alot members would be happier living a more "born again christian" belief than living the skewed version of the gospel so many Mormons seem to live. But I haven't found evidence yet that there is a better guide to the truth than the teachings of the LDS church
When a person reads the words of Christ and sees the exact opposite of those teachings in the LDS church, do you think they are happier knowing what Christ taught, or the philosophies of men?
I was hoping I would remember what I had typed or have some idea of what I wanted to say earlier but I guess I'm not supposed to remember since I am at a complete loss. So eiher I never typed it or I am having a stupor of thought because what I was gonna say was wrong. Lol

If I'm being candid, my first thought is that your interpretation of the words of Christ is probably different than mine, but setting that aside for now the words that Christ spoke as we have them in the new testament and even in the Book of Mormon are not enough on their own to bring one closer to Him, or to teach us all things. His words have a huge depth of meaning and I dont mean to belittle them at all.
If the issue is with "what is being taught in the church" I agree, I don't think the people who are teaching even have half a clue as to the subjects and lessons they are teaching. But I see that as the flaws of the men and women teaching. I think the doctrines and principles that are taught in the curriculum are correct though, and if we are judging the fruit by the hands who are holding it we risk not being nourished at all.

I had more thoughts but I think this is enough for the moment otherwise I'll probably end up in some tangential rabbit hole that doesn't even relate to the topic at hand. Haha

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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Shaffer89 wrote: October 26th, 2023, 8:57 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 26th, 2023, 12:29 pm
Shaffer89 wrote: October 26th, 2023, 12:21 pm If God provides some greater source of truth than the restored gospel I will happily jump ship once I feel like there is something better.
My trouble is that everyone, in my experience, who leaves is always upset over things or disenchanted and hoping to find happiness from another church or another lifestyle, they haven't actually found greater light and knowledge, they are just upset about the imperfections of the current ship and don't want to be on it. Now I do think more people should genuinely reflect and decide if the LDS church is the boat they want to be on, since I think alot members would be happier living a more "born again christian" belief than living the skewed version of the gospel so many Mormons seem to live. But I haven't found evidence yet that there is a better guide to the truth than the teachings of the LDS church
When a person reads the words of Christ and sees the exact opposite of those teachings in the LDS church, do you think they are happier knowing what Christ taught, or the philosophies of men?
I was hoping I would remember what I had typed or have some idea of what I wanted to say earlier but I guess I'm not supposed to remember since I am at a complete loss. So eiher I never typed it or I am having a stupor of thought because what I was gonna say was wrong. Lol

If I'm being candid, my first thought is that your interpretation of the words of Christ is probably different than mine, but setting that aside for now the words that Christ spoke as we have them in the new testament and even in the Book of Mormon are not enough on their own to bring one closer to Him, or to teach us all things. His words have a huge depth of meaning and I dont mean to belittle them at all.
If the issue is with "what is being taught in the church" I agree, I don't think the people who are teaching even have half a clue as to the subjects and lessons they are teaching. But I see that as the flaws of the men and women teaching. I think the doctrines and principles that are taught in the curriculum are correct though, and if we are judging the fruit by the hands who are holding it we risk not being nourished at all.

I had more thoughts but I think this is enough for the moment otherwise I'll probably end up in some tangential rabbit hole that doesn't even relate to the topic at hand. Haha
So you believe that these men “can never lead you astray”? Are you aware that Jesus taught that all men, even prophets, can lead us astray? Have you ever read JST Mark 9?

Shaffer89
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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by Shaffer89 »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 26th, 2023, 9:16 pm
Shaffer89 wrote: October 26th, 2023, 8:57 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 26th, 2023, 12:29 pm

When a person reads the words of Christ and sees the exact opposite of those teachings in the LDS church, do you think they are happier knowing what Christ taught, or the philosophies of men?
I was hoping I would remember what I had typed or have some idea of what I wanted to say earlier but I guess I'm not supposed to remember since I am at a complete loss. So eiher I never typed it or I am having a stupor of thought because what I was gonna say was wrong. Lol

If I'm being candid, my first thought is that your interpretation of the words of Christ is probably different than mine, but setting that aside for now the words that Christ spoke as we have them in the new testament and even in the Book of Mormon are not enough on their own to bring one closer to Him, or to teach us all things. His words have a huge depth of meaning and I dont mean to belittle them at all.
If the issue is with "what is being taught in the church" I agree, I don't think the people who are teaching even have half a clue as to the subjects and lessons they are teaching. But I see that as the flaws of the men and women teaching. I think the doctrines and principles that are taught in the curriculum are correct though, and if we are judging the fruit by the hands who are holding it we risk not being nourished at all.

I had more thoughts but I think this is enough for the moment otherwise I'll probably end up in some tangential rabbit hole that doesn't even relate to the topic at hand. Haha
So you believe that these men “can never lead you astray”? Are you aware that Jesus taught that all men, even prophets, can lead us astray? Have you ever read JST Mark 9?
I believe that if you are not in a position to recieve revelation for yourself, you can choose to accept a lower kingdom and follow the prophet until such time as you are are able to take that accountability on yourself. I believe that all beings, even a son of the morning, can lead us astray, so the disagreement isn't due to a lack of awareness, i think the difference is in what constitutes "astray".
If the Lord wants you to go one way, and I another, is the other going astray? If I am unhappy living a celestial law, and you find great joy in it, does that mean that when I am told to not live the higher law I am being led astray?

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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Shaffer89 wrote: October 26th, 2023, 9:29 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 26th, 2023, 9:16 pm
Shaffer89 wrote: October 26th, 2023, 8:57 pm

I was hoping I would remember what I had typed or have some idea of what I wanted to say earlier but I guess I'm not supposed to remember since I am at a complete loss. So eiher I never typed it or I am having a stupor of thought because what I was gonna say was wrong. Lol

If I'm being candid, my first thought is that your interpretation of the words of Christ is probably different than mine, but setting that aside for now the words that Christ spoke as we have them in the new testament and even in the Book of Mormon are not enough on their own to bring one closer to Him, or to teach us all things. His words have a huge depth of meaning and I dont mean to belittle them at all.
If the issue is with "what is being taught in the church" I agree, I don't think the people who are teaching even have half a clue as to the subjects and lessons they are teaching. But I see that as the flaws of the men and women teaching. I think the doctrines and principles that are taught in the curriculum are correct though, and if we are judging the fruit by the hands who are holding it we risk not being nourished at all.

I had more thoughts but I think this is enough for the moment otherwise I'll probably end up in some tangential rabbit hole that doesn't even relate to the topic at hand. Haha
So you believe that these men “can never lead you astray”? Are you aware that Jesus taught that all men, even prophets, can lead us astray? Have you ever read JST Mark 9?
I believe that if you are not in a position to recieve revelation for yourself, you can choose to accept a lower kingdom and follow the prophet until such time as you are are able to take that accountability on yourself. I believe that all beings, even a son of the morning, can lead us astray, so the disagreement isn't due to a lack of awareness, i think the difference is in what constitutes "astray".
If the Lord wants you to go one way, and I another, is the other going astray? If I am unhappy living a celestial law, and you find great joy in it, does that mean that when I am told to not live the higher law I am being led astray?
The shear fact that Jesus taught that prophets can, and the LDS president teaches that he can’t is a problem. The prophet is teaching false doctrine. It doesn’t matter what that thing is, it’s the principle that a false dogma is being taught in the first place. The very fact that this doctrine exists in the church in the first place is proof that the church is being led astray.

Shaffer89
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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by Shaffer89 »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 26th, 2023, 9:37 pm
Shaffer89 wrote: October 26th, 2023, 9:29 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 26th, 2023, 9:16 pm

So you believe that these men “can never lead you astray”? Are you aware that Jesus taught that all men, even prophets, can lead us astray? Have you ever read JST Mark 9?
I believe that if you are not in a position to recieve revelation for yourself, you can choose to accept a lower kingdom and follow the prophet until such time as you are are able to take that accountability on yourself. I believe that all beings, even a son of the morning, can lead us astray, so the disagreement isn't due to a lack of awareness, i think the difference is in what constitutes "astray".
If the Lord wants you to go one way, and I another, is the other going astray? If I am unhappy living a celestial law, and you find great joy in it, does that mean that when I am told to not live the higher law I am being led astray?
The shear fact that Jesus taught that prophets can, and the LDS president teaches that he can’t is a problem. The prophet is teaching false doctrine. It doesn’t matter what that thing is, it’s the principle that a false dogma is being taught in the first place. The very fact that this doctrine exists in the church in the first place is proof that the church is being led astray.
So I think this what we disagree on, I don't see an issue with the Prophet of God telling people that if they follow his counsel (because they are too weak to get their own) they will not be led into anything that the Lord will hold against them at the last day. I think you can interpret it as false doctrine, but that doesn't justify throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The principle is true, though there is certainly a better way of living then just following the prophet, that doesn't mean that following a prophet is bad.

Shaffer89
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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by Shaffer89 »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 26th, 2023, 9:37 pm
Shaffer89 wrote: October 26th, 2023, 9:29 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 26th, 2023, 9:16 pm

So you believe that these men “can never lead you astray”? Are you aware that Jesus taught that all men, even prophets, can lead us astray? Have you ever read JST Mark 9?
I believe that if you are not in a position to recieve revelation for yourself, you can choose to accept a lower kingdom and follow the prophet until such time as you are are able to take that accountability on yourself. I believe that all beings, even a son of the morning, can lead us astray, so the disagreement isn't due to a lack of awareness, i think the difference is in what constitutes "astray".
If the Lord wants you to go one way, and I another, is the other going astray? If I am unhappy living a celestial law, and you find great joy in it, does that mean that when I am told to not live the higher law I am being led astray?
The shear fact that Jesus taught that prophets can, and the LDS president teaches that he can’t is a problem. The prophet is teaching false doctrine. It doesn’t matter what that thing is, it’s the principle that a false dogma is being taught in the first place. The very fact that this doctrine exists in the church in the first place is proof that the church is being led astray.
A verse that came to my mind after I posted the last reply was this one in Matthew 23
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

And I feel like this is almost exactly referencing church leaders. We should observe and do, because they are the ones responsible for telling us what to do. But if they are imperfect then we should not do after their works, he doesn't say to denounce them and refuse to follow them.

Edited because texting a coherent thought is hard...lol

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Shaffer89 wrote: October 26th, 2023, 10:05 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 26th, 2023, 9:37 pm
Shaffer89 wrote: October 26th, 2023, 9:29 pm

I believe that if you are not in a position to recieve revelation for yourself, you can choose to accept a lower kingdom and follow the prophet until such time as you are are able to take that accountability on yourself. I believe that all beings, even a son of the morning, can lead us astray, so the disagreement isn't due to a lack of awareness, i think the difference is in what constitutes "astray".
If the Lord wants you to go one way, and I another, is the other going astray? If I am unhappy living a celestial law, and you find great joy in it, does that mean that when I am told to not live the higher law I am being led astray?
The shear fact that Jesus taught that prophets can, and the LDS president teaches that he can’t is a problem. The prophet is teaching false doctrine. It doesn’t matter what that thing is, it’s the principle that a false dogma is being taught in the first place. The very fact that this doctrine exists in the church in the first place is proof that the church is being led astray.
So I think this what we disagree on, I don't see an issue with the Prophet of God telling people that if they follow his counsel (because they are too weak to get their own) they will not be led into anything that the Lord will hold against them at the last day. I think you can interpret it as false doctrine, but that doesn't justify throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The principle is true, though there is certainly a better way of living then just following the prophet, that doesn't mean that following a prophet is bad.
The difficulty is that this isn’t the only doctrine. I could dive into dozens of practices in the church and share my viewpoint on them. I think what the saints perceive as the baby, isn’t the baby at all.

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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Shaffer89 wrote: October 26th, 2023, 10:11 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 26th, 2023, 9:37 pm
Shaffer89 wrote: October 26th, 2023, 9:29 pm

I believe that if you are not in a position to recieve revelation for yourself, you can choose to accept a lower kingdom and follow the prophet until such time as you are are able to take that accountability on yourself. I believe that all beings, even a son of the morning, can lead us astray, so the disagreement isn't due to a lack of awareness, i think the difference is in what constitutes "astray".
If the Lord wants you to go one way, and I another, is the other going astray? If I am unhappy living a celestial law, and you find great joy in it, does that mean that when I am told to not live the higher law I am being led astray?
The shear fact that Jesus taught that prophets can, and the LDS president teaches that he can’t is a problem. The prophet is teaching false doctrine. It doesn’t matter what that thing is, it’s the principle that a false dogma is being taught in the first place. The very fact that this doctrine exists in the church in the first place is proof that the church is being led astray.
A verse that came to my mind after I posted the last reply was this one in Matthew 23
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

And I feel like this is almost exactly referencing church leaders. We should observe and do, because they are the ones responsible for telling us what to do. But if they are imperfect then we should not do after their works, he doesn't say to denounce them and refuse to follow them.

Edited because texting a coherent thought is hard...lol
Uh… Jesus taught in JST Mark 9 to do exactly that, to “pluck them out.” Joseph Smith taught this as well. Here’s a Times & Seasons article written by Joseph about men who were preaching the false doctrine of polygamy. He condemns them and tells the brethren to “cut them off” if anyone leader taught anything contrary to the scriptures:

This is from my essay: “Trust in Me”
Here is the complete text of the section titled: TO THE ELDERS ABROAD. It was originally written to quell the rumors of spiritual wifery, also known as polygamy. If you are unaware, Joseph was not a polygamist. He uses the scriptures as his doctrinal foundation, and Jacob 2 and the original D&C 101 condemned the practice of polygamy.

“We very frequently receive letters from elders and individuals abroad, inquiring of us whether certain statements that they hear, and have written to them, are true: some pertaining to John C. Bennet’s spiritual wife system; others in regard to immoral conduct, practiced by individuals, and sanctioned by the Church; and as it is impossible for us to answer all of them, we take this opportunity of answering them all, once for all. In the first place, we cannot but express our surprise that any elder or priest who has been in Nauvoo, and has had an opportunity of hearing the principles of truth advanced, should for one moment give credence to the idea that any thing like iniquity is practised, much less taught or sanctioned, by the authorities of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We are the more surprised, since every species of iniquity is spoken against, and exposed publicly at the stand, and every means made use of that possibly can be, to suppress vice, both religious and civil; not only so, but every species of iniquity has frequently been exposed in the Times and Seasons, and its practisers and advocates held up to the world as corrupt men that ought to be avoided. . . . There are other men who are corrupt and sensual, and who teach corrupt principles for the sake of gratifying their sensual appetites, at the expense and ruin of virtue and innocence. Such men ought to be avoided as pests to society, and be frowned down upon with contempt by every virtuous man and woman. . . . They are high and lifted up, and would trample upon the humble, and the meek, and the unassuming, and are not afraid to teach for the commandment of God, their own corrupt, and devilish doctrines, and principles; let no man therefore, be deceived by them, let no man harbor them, nor bid them God speed; don’t be partakers of their evil deeds. If any man writes to you, or preaches to you, doctrines contrary to the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or the book of Doctrine and Covenants, set him down as an imposter. You need not write to us to know what you are to do with such men; you have the authority with you.—Try them by the principles contained in the acknowledged word of God; if they preach, or teach, or practice contrary to that, disfellowship them; cut them off from among you as useless and dangerous branches, and if they are belonging to any of the quorums in the Church, report them to the president of the quorum to which they belong, and if you cannot find that out, if they are members of an official standing, belonging to Nauvoo, report them to us. Follow after purity, virtue, holiness, integrity, Godliness, and every thing that has a tendency to exalt and ennoble the human mind; and shun every man who teaches any other principles.” (Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons 5: 490–491, 1 April 1844)

https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/trust-in-me

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Speaking of that, Nelson has taught that you can “trust him completely.” That is also another false doctrine in the church.

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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

If you want to know how tithing has been corrupted, and the correct way that Joseph taught it, I’d suggest a perusal of this essay: https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/tithe-the-poor

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