Anger. Good or Bad?

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Lynn
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Posts: 897

Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by Lynn »

I think Silas nailed it on the first page of this thread ...
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Anger is an emotion, it’s a passion. Our passions should be bridled not eliminated. It’s not sinful to be angry, but allowing my anger to control my actions will very quickly lead me into serious sin.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

In Star Wars, Yoda taught that anger "leads" to the dark side. Notice how he used that terminology. If unchecked or not bridled & redirected, it can lead to the dark side.

Emotions are a unique trait of mankind. They can be misused, misinterpreted, and so on. Same way with the Spirit coming over you. You have to be able to define what is the Spirit & what are the emotions & be able to tell the difference. With some people, it may be hard to distinguish that difference, be it of themselves, or others perception of them.

There are certain things that "anger" me, like pushing my "hot button", or akin to pushing my pet peeves. I have found it best to cool off for 24 hours before reacting. In that time, I try to look at different perspectives that may have led to the point in question. Then I realize, it might have been possible that they have a different view or that I viewed the reaction from a biased viewpoint. So I try to take in wisdom & understanding to solve the conflict. In other words, I do not add flames to the fire to create an inferno.

My mentor & friend from 1986-1988 was Dirk (a High Priest in RLDS) who also was into special modes of higher education & Teaching/Learning aspects. Plus he also was well informed in the Mind, Brain, subconscious, and emotions. He taught in ways similar to Socrates, leading you to the truth, instead of giving it to you. That way, you would have to earn it the old fashioned way yourself.

larsenb
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10813
Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by larsenb »

Lynn wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 9:17 am I think Silas nailed it on the first page of this thread ...
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Anger is an emotion, it’s a passion. Our passions should be bridled not eliminated. It’s not sinful to be angry, but allowing my anger to control my actions will very quickly lead me into serious sin.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

In Star Wars, Yoda taught that anger "leads" to the dark side. Notice how he used that terminology. If unchecked or not bridled & redirected, it can lead to the dark side.

Emotions are a unique trait of mankind. They can be misused, misinterpreted, and so on. Same way with the Spirit coming over you. You have to be able to define what is the Spirit & what are the emotions & be able to tell the difference. With some people, it may be hard to distinguish that difference, be it of themselves, or others perception of them. . . . . .

Exactly. No one is denying that holding onto and acting out of anger can be exceedingly detrimental. I'm certainly not.

larsenb
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Posts: 10813
Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by larsenb »

John Tavner wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 8:55 am
You are assuming one has to act out of anger.

Charity is not an emotion it is a state of being. If while in that state of being something occurs anger is not the emotion that springs forth. How do I know? Because I've lived it - It is the pwoer of Christ working through us as we submit the natural man to Him and live by the Spirit.

So - I can see my child being beaten and act out of love to protect the child and not out of anger towards the one beating the child. You may think that is impossible, but that is why you act angrily and another who is in a state of charity will not. You are already giving yourself and tacit excuse to become angry - believing that you are to be acted upon and not to act (2 Nephi 2:26)

Fear is not a spirit of the Lord - the Lord does not give a spirit of fear, but of power, love and a sound mind (2 tim 1:7).
No I am not assuming one has to act out of anger. We aren't communicating, which the best definition of I've seen is where the person you are trying to communicate to can state what you are trying to communicate, to your satisfaction.

The fear and anger I'm referring to are the natural responses welling up from your autonomic nervous system. The whole process is basically taken out of the realm of choice . . . which is why it reverts to this underlying system which affords exceedingly quick response.

I doubt very much that you will be able to religiously avoid the upwelling of fear when confronted by a ravenous beast coming at you full boor. Nor will you be able to repress a similar response of anger if you saw your daughter being abused. And ironically, saving your daughter from such an attack IS an act of love . . . . ultimately . . . even though enabled by emotional anger. And it may not involve just removing your daughter from attack but fending off the attacker who may keep coming at your daughter, and now, you. Do you think you will be feeling love and charity for the attacker as you beat him off of both of you? Dream on.

You may think and wish you can avoid anger and fear in these scenarios; but I certainly hope you won't ever have to test your particular hypothesis.

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John Tavner
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Posts: 4154

Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by John Tavner »

larsenb wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 3:09 pm
John Tavner wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 8:55 am
You are assuming one has to act out of anger.

Charity is not an emotion it is a state of being. If while in that state of being something occurs anger is not the emotion that springs forth. How do I know? Because I've lived it - It is the pwoer of Christ working through us as we submit the natural man to Him and live by the Spirit.

So - I can see my child being beaten and act out of love to protect the child and not out of anger towards the one beating the child. You may think that is impossible, but that is why you act angrily and another who is in a state of charity will not. You are already giving yourself and tacit excuse to become angry - believing that you are to be acted upon and not to act (2 Nephi 2:26)

Fear is not a spirit of the Lord - the Lord does not give a spirit of fear, but of power, love and a sound mind (2 tim 1:7).
No I am not assuming one has to act out of anger. We aren't communicating, which the best definition of I've seen is where the person you are trying to communicate to can state what you are trying to communicate, to your satisfaction.

The fear and anger I'm referring to are the natural responses welling up from your autonomic nervous system. The whole process is basically taken out of the realm of choice . . . which is why it reverts to this underlying system which affords exceedingly quick response.

I doubt very much that you will be able to religiously avoid the upwelling of fear when confronted by a ravenous beast coming at you full boor. Nor will you be able to repress a similar response of anger if you saw your daughter being abused. And ironically, saving your daughter from such an attack IS an act of love . . . . ultimately . . . even though enabled by emotional anger. And it may not involve just removing your daughter from attack but fending off the attacker who may keep coming at your daughter, and now, you. Do you think you will be feeling love and charity for the attacker as you beat him off of both of you? Dream on.

You may think and wish you can avoid anger and fear in these scenarios; but I certainly hope you won't ever have to test your particular hypothesis.
We will have to agree to disagree then. I believe in being born again and it changing our nature - it is my experience it does just that and as we ocntinue to submit instead of letting the "world" tell us how to act, we are different. I have literally been in situations that are similar to what you describe, so while you may think you know what you are talking about, my experience is different. I've experienced the change and continue to do so - and there isn't any "repression". So we will agree to disagree.

Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God.
Death is not our God, Christ is to be our God - when the mind shifts, and we trust in God entirely, death or destruction doesn't have the hold upon you that it used to. The key is to continually focus on Him and trust, it is easy to shift or fall back into the natural man, but the new man in Christ has different attitudes and motives and perspectives. It is a major part of the gospel in my view.

EvanLM
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Posts: 4798

Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by EvanLM »

John Tavner wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 8:55 am
larsenb wrote: May 1st, 2021, 11:27 pm
John Tavner wrote: April 30th, 2021, 8:03 pm
larsenb wrote: April 30th, 2021, 7:36 pm
Don't think so. You are describing anger held onto that can and often does lead to bad actions.

Next time you see an 8 year old (as an example) being beaten for no good reason by an adult in your close vicinity, it will be interesting to see how you handle the anger welling up in your breast, and how much time you spend trying to quell your anger while the kid continues to be beaten.

And of course, I'd like to see how Cruiserdude handles the same situation ;)
Not being angry does not mean inaction- I'm not sure how you think that actions can only be followed by anger. Edit:To add to your child scenario - the question we should ask ourselves is "are we acting because we love the child or because we are angry at the adults actions?" One leads to righteousness, the other leads to mistakes. (end edit)

What you are doing is justifying your anger- which is literally what hte scriptures tell us we ought not do. I can get someone to stop beating a child without being angry.

Edit: finally, I'm not talking about holding onto anger at all - that means I am angry. I'm talking about becoming, so that anger no longer is a part of me through Christ and becoming charity- which is the love of God - the gift that if we don't have, we are considered nothing. (end edit)
Huh??

I'm not sure you've understood anything I've said. Where on earth did I say anything like: "actions can only be followed by anger"??

I'm not trying to justify anything.

Let me reiterate something I have said that would indicate emotions like anger, fear, love, etc., can arise instantaneously without any or very little thought. AND, they can be beneficial, provided they lead to corrective action.

First anger: Lets say you see your 4 year old daughter being beaten by a grown man for no reason. Are you claiming that you will not feel anger welling up in your breast, AND take immediate action to stop the man??

Next fear: Let's say that you are walking down a city street and you become aware of a lion suddenly running after you with jaws open, roaring and claws extended. Are you saying that fear will not well up in your breast which causes immediate adrenal discharge, your blood vessels to constrict, and your pulse to quicken, all of which aid you to launch into full flight away from danger or to valiantly meet the charge and defend yourself as best you can?

In both cases, anger and fear are coming to your aid in taking corrective action. Very little thought is involved that does not aid your defense of your daughter of flight from the lion. However, the adrenaline could also result in hyper thought that allows you to rapidly know what to do.

I see you as complicating the issue by trying force these categories into a strictly religious context.
wrath isn't anger instead it is the expression of uncontrolled anger.

I have been a victim. In two blessings given by different priesthood holders, while preparing for court, I was told that I had healed quickly so I could be a good witness. I was accused by other members of the church of being angry, unforgiving, not in tune with spirit, wrong, mad, etc. We are told to bridle our passions not deny them. Some told that what I was doing was unchristian and that they had forgiven him. That's easy when you are not the victim.

I can't say where the anger went out of me but regardless of anyone else and this anger, the LORD told me to be a good witness. The perp was convicted on my testimony alone. 10 yesrs prison Anger? Used unjustly? I am not Christian and others told me they were? idk you decide.

You are assuming one has to act out of anger.

Charity is not an emotion it is a state of being. If while in that state of being something occurs anger is not the emotion that springs forth. How do I know? Because I've lived it - It is the pwoer of Christ working through us as we submit the natural man to Him and live by the Spirit.

So - I can see my child being beaten and act out of love to protect the child and not out of anger towards the one beating the child. You may think that is impossible, but that is why you act angrily and another who is in a state of charity will not. You are already giving yourself and tacit excuse to become angry - believing that you are to be acted upon and not to act (2 Nephi 2:26)

Fear is not a spirit of the Lord - the Lord does not give a spirit of fear, but of power, love and a sound mind (2 tim 1:7).

Again I have literally been in situations where people are deathly afraid and I am not and I am sitll able to act appropriately with confidence.

You are constantly giving examples of hte natural man reacting when we are supposed to be a "spiritual man." Can you see Jesus having these responses? Was He tempted, yes, but did He have those response and was being acted upon in the sitation He was in rather than acting? No, I do not believe He was. We can be tempted to be angry, but that comes from thought - not an "instantaneous feeling" - often there are spirits which seek to do so, but it isn't repressing an emotion if it is coming from the outside and other times there are moments when anger isn't even an option. As Charity takes over we react in the way appropriate to each situation, and like scripture says, the wrath of man does not bring forth the righteousness of God. Can God fix things, yep, can some things "seem" right? Yep, but was it done in the right spirit? Nope.

I'm not complicating anything - I'm just trusting hte in the Word.

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John Tavner
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Posts: 4154

Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by John Tavner »

EvanLM wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 4:34 pm
John Tavner wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 8:55 am
larsenb wrote: May 1st, 2021, 11:27 pm
John Tavner wrote: April 30th, 2021, 8:03 pm

Not being angry does not mean inaction- I'm not sure how you think that actions can only be followed by anger. Edit:To add to your child scenario - the question we should ask ourselves is "are we acting because we love the child or because we are angry at the adults actions?" One leads to righteousness, the other leads to mistakes. (end edit)

What you are doing is justifying your anger- which is literally what hte scriptures tell us we ought not do. I can get someone to stop beating a child without being angry.

Edit: finally, I'm not talking about holding onto anger at all - that means I am angry. I'm talking about becoming, so that anger no longer is a part of me through Christ and becoming charity- which is the love of God - the gift that if we don't have, we are considered nothing. (end edit)
Huh??

I'm not sure you've understood anything I've said. Where on earth did I say anything like: "actions can only be followed by anger"??

I'm not trying to justify anything.

Let me reiterate something I have said that would indicate emotions like anger, fear, love, etc., can arise instantaneously without any or very little thought. AND, they can be beneficial, provided they lead to corrective action.

First anger: Lets say you see your 4 year old daughter being beaten by a grown man for no reason. Are you claiming that you will not feel anger welling up in your breast, AND take immediate action to stop the man??

Next fear: Let's say that you are walking down a city street and you become aware of a lion suddenly running after you with jaws open, roaring and claws extended. Are you saying that fear will not well up in your breast which causes immediate adrenal discharge, your blood vessels to constrict, and your pulse to quicken, all of which aid you to launch into full flight away from danger or to valiantly meet the charge and defend yourself as best you can?

In both cases, anger and fear are coming to your aid in taking corrective action. Very little thought is involved that does not aid your defense of your daughter of flight from the lion. However, the adrenaline could also result in hyper thought that allows you to rapidly know what to do.

I see you as complicating the issue by trying force these categories into a strictly religious context.
wrath isn't anger instead it is the expression of uncontrolled anger.

I have been a victim. In two blessings given by different priesthood holders, while preparing for court, I was told that I had healed quickly so I could be a good witness. I was accused by other members of the church of being angry, unforgiving, not in tune with spirit, wrong, mad, etc. We are told to bridle our passions not deny them. Some told that what I was doing was unchristian and that they had forgiven him. That's easy when you are not the victim.

I can't say where the anger went out of me but regardless of anyone else and this anger, the LORD told me to be a good witness. The perp was convicted on my testimony alone. 10 yesrs prison Anger? Used unjustly? I am not Christian and others told me they were? idk you decide.

You are assuming one has to act out of anger.

Charity is not an emotion it is a state of being. If while in that state of being something occurs anger is not the emotion that springs forth. How do I know? Because I've lived it - It is the pwoer of Christ working through us as we submit the natural man to Him and live by the Spirit.

So - I can see my child being beaten and act out of love to protect the child and not out of anger towards the one beating the child. You may think that is impossible, but that is why you act angrily and another who is in a state of charity will not. You are already giving yourself and tacit excuse to become angry - believing that you are to be acted upon and not to act (2 Nephi 2:26)

Fear is not a spirit of the Lord - the Lord does not give a spirit of fear, but of power, love and a sound mind (2 tim 1:7).

Again I have literally been in situations where people are deathly afraid and I am not and I am sitll able to act appropriately with confidence.

You are constantly giving examples of hte natural man reacting when we are supposed to be a "spiritual man." Can you see Jesus having these responses? Was He tempted, yes, but did He have those response and was being acted upon in the sitation He was in rather than acting? No, I do not believe He was. We can be tempted to be angry, but that comes from thought - not an "instantaneous feeling" - often there are spirits which seek to do so, but it isn't repressing an emotion if it is coming from the outside and other times there are moments when anger isn't even an option. As Charity takes over we react in the way appropriate to each situation, and like scripture says, the wrath of man does not bring forth the righteousness of God. Can God fix things, yep, can some things "seem" right? Yep, but was it done in the right spirit? Nope.

I'm not complicating anything - I'm just trusting hte in the Word.
I'm sorry you were a victim an for people treating you the way they did.

that isn't the only scripture... scriptures which I have quoted in this thread speak of us not having "wrath" there are ones on anger too. JST has one which says you can't be angry and and not sin.

Jesus also tells us to "deny ourselves."

I'm not going to judge your situation because I don't know - you know and that is between you and the Lord. I know you can do something like that and not be angry. The problem is when people think that you have to be angry to testify. They think that by testifying you are in "unforgiveness" taht isn't true. You can still forgive and have the authorities do their job and you testify. If the Lord told you to do it, then you followed the Lord.

On bridling passions... it is bridle your passions so you can be filled with love - or charity- see 1 cor 13 (alma 38). i.e. Love is what controls you, not your passions notice love is not bridled. Paul explains this in Col 3: 7When you lived among them, you also used to walk in these ways. 8But now you must put aside all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips...9Do not lie to one another, since you have taken off the old self with its practices, 10and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.

My personal guess is that Corianton wasn't born again yet at that moment. Or if he was he put on the "old man" rather than embracing the new in Christ - His image.

larsenb
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10813
Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by larsenb »

John Tavner wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 3:21 pm . . . . . .
We will have to agree to disagree then. I believe in being born again and it changing our nature - it is my experience it does just that and as we ocntinue to submit instead of letting the "world" tell us how to act, we are different. I have literally been in situations that are similar to what you describe, so while you may think you know what you are talking about, my experience is different. I've experienced the change and continue to do so - and there isn't any "repression". So we will agree to disagree.

Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God.
Death is not our God, Christ is to be our God - when the mind shifts, and we trust in God entirely, death or destruction doesn't have the hold upon you that it used to. The key is to continually focus on Him and trust, it is easy to shift or fall back into the natural man, but the new man in Christ has different attitudes and motives and perspectives. It is a major part of the gospel in my view.
I'm curious if you've been in a situation even similar to a lion charging you that is bent on your destruction. What was it, pray tell?

If you're actually in a state where you could calmly wait for your demise while the lion was in mid leap going for your throat and not experience even a tinkling of fear welling up from your autonomic nervous system, you're certainly waaaaaay beyond me and probably 99.999999999999999999% of humanity, if not more.

If this is the case, you are a fortunate individual, indeed.

larsenb
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10813
Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by larsenb »

EvanLM wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 4:34 pm
John Tavner wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 8:55 am
larsenb wrote: May 1st, 2021, 11:27 pm
John Tavner wrote: April 30th, 2021, 8:03 pm

Not being angry does not mean inaction- I'm not sure how you think that actions can only be followed by anger. Edit:To add to your child scenario - the question we should ask ourselves is "are we acting because we love the child or because we are angry at the adults actions?" One leads to righteousness, the other leads to mistakes. (end edit)

What you are doing is justifying your anger- which is literally what hte scriptures tell us we ought not do. I can get someone to stop beating a child without being angry.

Edit: finally, I'm not talking about holding onto anger at all - that means I am angry. I'm talking about becoming, so that anger no longer is a part of me through Christ and becoming charity- which is the love of God - the gift that if we don't have, we are considered nothing. (end edit)
Huh??

I'm not sure you've understood anything I've said. Where on earth did I say anything like: "actions can only be followed by anger"??

I'm not trying to justify anything.

Let me reiterate something I have said that would indicate emotions like anger, fear, love, etc., can arise instantaneously without any or very little thought. AND, they can be beneficial, provided they lead to corrective action.

First anger: Lets say you see your 4 year old daughter being beaten by a grown man for no reason. Are you claiming that you will not feel anger welling up in your breast, AND take immediate action to stop the man??

Next fear: Let's say that you are walking down a city street and you become aware of a lion suddenly running after you with jaws open, roaring and claws extended. Are you saying that fear will not well up in your breast which causes immediate adrenal discharge, your blood vessels to constrict, and your pulse to quicken, all of which aid you to launch into full flight away from danger or to valiantly meet the charge and defend yourself as best you can?

In both cases, anger and fear are coming to your aid in taking corrective action. Very little thought is involved that does not aid your defense of your daughter of flight from the lion. However, the adrenaline could also result in hyper thought that allows you to rapidly know what to do.

I see you as complicating the issue by trying force these categories into a strictly religious context.
wrath isn't anger instead it is the expression of uncontrolled anger.

I have been a victim. In two blessings given by different priesthood holders, while preparing for court, I was told that I had healed quickly so I could be a good witness. I was accused by other members of the church of being angry, unforgiving, not in tune with spirit, wrong, mad, etc. We are told to bridle our passions not deny them. Some told that what I was doing was unchristian and that they had forgiven him. That's easy when you are not the victim.

I can't say where the anger went out of me but regardless of anyone else and this anger, the LORD told me to be a good witness. The perp was convicted on my testimony alone. 10 yesrs prison Anger? Used unjustly? I am not Christian and others told me they were? idk you decide.

You are assuming one has to act out of anger.

Charity is not an emotion it is a state of being. If while in that state of being something occurs anger is not the emotion that springs forth. How do I know? Because I've lived it - It is the pwoer of Christ working through us as we submit the natural man to Him and live by the Spirit.

So - I can see my child being beaten and act out of love to protect the child and not out of anger towards the one beating the child. You may think that is impossible, but that is why you act angrily and another who is in a state of charity will not. You are already giving yourself and tacit excuse to become angry - believing that you are to be acted upon and not to act (2 Nephi 2:26)

Fear is not a spirit of the Lord - the Lord does not give a spirit of fear, but of power, love and a sound mind (2 tim 1:7).

Again I have literally been in situations where people are deathly afraid and I am not and I am sitll able to act appropriately with confidence.

You are constantly giving examples of hte natural man reacting when we are supposed to be a "spiritual man." Can you see Jesus having these responses? Was He tempted, yes, but did He have those response and was being acted upon in the sitation He was in rather than acting? No, I do not believe He was. We can be tempted to be angry, but that comes from thought - not an "instantaneous feeling" - often there are spirits which seek to do so, but it isn't repressing an emotion if it is coming from the outside and other times there are moments when anger isn't even an option. As Charity takes over we react in the way appropriate to each situation, and like scripture says, the wrath of man does not bring forth the righteousness of God. Can God fix things, yep, can some things "seem" right? Yep, but was it done in the right spirit? Nope.

I'm not complicating anything - I'm just trusting hte in the Word.
EvanLM, this is rather confusing to me. Maybe you can edit it so readers can more easily separate out your words.

If I'm reading it right, it sounds like whatever you suffered initiated an anger response, then you were able to deal with the anger w/the help of the Spirit. This makes complete sense.

What I'm talking about are situations that create anger or fear that have little or nothing to do with prior decisions or even habits of mind, faith or thought; they are automatic emotional responses arising spontaneously from situations of attack/defense or protection of yourself or those you empathize with.

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John Tavner
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Posts: 4154

Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by John Tavner »

larsenb wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 11:25 pm
John Tavner wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 3:21 pm . . . . . .
We will have to agree to disagree then. I believe in being born again and it changing our nature - it is my experience it does just that and as we ocntinue to submit instead of letting the "world" tell us how to act, we are different. I have literally been in situations that are similar to what you describe, so while you may think you know what you are talking about, my experience is different. I've experienced the change and continue to do so - and there isn't any "repression". So we will agree to disagree.

Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God.
Death is not our God, Christ is to be our God - when the mind shifts, and we trust in God entirely, death or destruction doesn't have the hold upon you that it used to. The key is to continually focus on Him and trust, it is easy to shift or fall back into the natural man, but the new man in Christ has different attitudes and motives and perspectives. It is a major part of the gospel in my view.
I'm curious if you've been in a situation even similar to a lion charging you that is bent on your destruction. What was it, pray tell?

If you're actually in a state where you could calmly wait for your demise while the lion was in mid leap going for your throat and not experience even a tinkling of fear welling up from your autonomic nervous system, you're certainly waaaaaay beyond me and probably 99.999999999999999999% of humanity, if not more.

If this is the case, you are a fortunate individual, indeed.
One can be calm despite something or someone attempting to take their life. When remaining calm, one can still act. It is otherworldly because God is involved and gives us new life. You keep making hte assumption that one can not act unless they experience anger or fear even when something surprises them<---- that is not true.

Surprise is a different reaction than fear. You literally keep shifting hte goalpost, but yeah, it isn't always "the lion" it can be cars, it can be horses losing their minds, it can be bombs, it can be a missile. It can be terrible things happening near you . It can be when animals you are sent to protect you believe are being attacked and you can't see what it is (all of which have happened to me). It goes something like this "Oh wow! I did not expect that?" "Lord I don't know what is going to happen or is happening, but I trust in you, protect me as I act and if not Lord, I still trust in you - let me know if this is the wrong choice" and in my case I almost always try to get involved in some way. It is called not loving your own life unto death. Have I had reactions like you've stated in the past too? Yep, but the Lord has taught me I don't have to - it is called trusting in Him even over your own life. WHen I do trust in Him, reactions and everything change - it is like a different person is doing things - because I've put off the natural man... because God is with you and death doesn't have it's sting. So you can not convince me anger or fear should be "natural response" of one who is born again... born into Christ and not Adam. WHen I fear or am angry, it is literally because I've focused on myself and not God in the times surrounding that incident, but when God is my focus - He really is my shield and my armor and my helmet. Temptation again is different than succumbing to those emotions. Whether you realize it or not, you have debased humanity into animal status that they are no better than animals or can not be any better than animals in those situations. Most if not all studies deal with the "natural man" which is an enemy to God... We are to put that off and become a "spiritual man" or one with God in the new man through being give new life... which doesn't fear death because we know life triumphs. To be clear all men can have this - through Christ.

In reality we as a church suffer from a lot of unbelief- it is something we all need to change, and even I suffer from a lot myself, it is only by turning ot hIm and "losing our lives" for His sake that we find life and can "overcome the world" as Jesus did. We truly do have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof.

The best way I can think to describe it is thus: if You've ever been to a concert where a wave of emotion comes on everyone, except you. YOu know the emotion is there, but you aren't lulled by what is going on - everyone is in sync with this "natural" feeling except you - you can feel the "spell" and know it is there wanting to control you, but it doesn't affect you unless you let it. That is what it feels like when these things happen. You know exactly what would happen naturally, but it doesn't have the pwoer over you, your mind is cleaer and active and you are able to make choices in a way the others can not because of God.

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TheDuke
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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by TheDuke »

Two thoughts. First, Yoda ended up being a whimp, who after a fall in the republic chamber hid out on a dumpy swampy planet.

Second, James says to be slow to anger. He didn't say don't get angry. Jehovah sure liked to get angry. Jesus displayed it at least once. Capt Moroni used it to clean house. Abraham soothed Jehovah's anger enough to get Lot out of Sodom. Seems unrighteous anger is bad, but righteous anger is good. If you can't tell the difference, or cannot control it, better never get angry.

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John Tavner
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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by John Tavner »

TheDuke wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 12:03 pm Two thoughts. First, Yoda ended up being a whimp, who after a fall in the republic chamber hid out on a dumpy swampy planet.

Second, James says to be slow to anger. He didn't say don't get angry. Jehovah sure liked to get angry. Jesus displayed it at least once. Capt Moroni used it to clean house. Abraham soothed Jehovah's anger enough to get Lot out of Sodom. Seems unrighteous anger is bad, but righteous anger is good. If you can't tell the difference, or cannot control it, better never get angry.
And you failed to quote the rest of what James said.. here it is: 20for man’s anger does not bring about the righteousness that God desires. 21Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and every expression of evil, and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save your souls.

Paul said to put off anger. Anger is how people described the Lord, but hte Lrod wasn't "angry" in the way we are. It is called judgment.

I do not believe Jesus was angry. God is love. All that God does is out of love So His act of cleansing hte temple was not "anger" it was done in love, but is interpreted as angry.

I posit most people don't know the difference... because it isn't there THey "justify" their anger. Moroni, was not Jesus - Jesus is our example, not Moroni, not, Abraham, not anyone, but Jesus Christ and He is our example. THe goal of our instruction is love. Everything Christ did was out of love. His motivation wasn't anger at the pharisees, it was love for the Father and love for the people who were being abused.

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TheDuke
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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by TheDuke »

Then I guess we need a better definition of anger then as that could be the miscommunication. There are several key words used in these posts that have multiple understandings and applications: anger, love, spirit, salvation, exaltation. Maybe we should start a terminology OP and post some re-usable definitions.

To me anger can imply multiple conditions in numerous contexts. Surely, the one you state John is one of them. I see there are others that are also used in theology, scriptures and social life. To say that god's anger is not anger but something other than anger seems to be an example of inconsistent definitions.

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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by larsenb »

John Tavner wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 5:55 am . . .. .

One can be calm despite something or someone attempting to take their life. When remaining calm, one can still act. It is otherworldly because God is involved and gives us new life. You keep making hte assumption that one can not act unless they experience anger or fear even when something surprises them<---- that is not true. . . . . .
But John, give a bit more consideration to the scenario I’ve laid out for you. Seeing an open-jawed lion leaping for your throat would elicit an extreme fear response from you. You’re dreaming if you think you could “remain calm” during this kind of event.

And once more with feeling: I am not saying at all that you can’t act unless you feel anger. A complete lack of understanding of what I’ve been trying to convey.

You also sidestep describing something happening to you that fits what I’ve been suggesting.

I sincerely hope you can remain without fear while that lion is gobbling you up . . . . or without anger if you suddenly see a man beating your 8 year-old daughter. Of course, for you to be convinced that these situations eliciting fear or anger responses in your physiognomy, you may have to be wired up . . . . .

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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by larsenb »

TheDuke wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 2:35 pm Then I guess we need a better definition of anger then as that could be the miscommunication. There are several key words used in these posts that have multiple understandings and applications: anger, love, spirit, salvation, exaltation. Maybe we should start a terminology OP and post some re-usable definitions.

To me anger can imply multiple conditions in numerous contexts. Surely, the one you state John is one of them. I see there are others that are also used in theology, scriptures and social life. To say that god's anger is not anger but something other than anger seems to be an example of inconsistent definitions.
Posts in this thread have already pretty much defined the different types of anger. So doing so again, won't elicit much of a different response from certain posters here.

The fear and anger I'm talking about arise from suddenly experiencing situations that totally violate our sense of safety or sense of justice. They are direct emotional responses that galvanize us to take immediate action to secure our safety or protect those we see being attacked. They have nothing to do with one's prior decisions in how you are going to react, whatever reasons you base those decisions on . . . . or even if you've had long-term, calm and trusting feelings from the Spirit.

I can think of several experiences of this type in my life. Ones you may relate to, are the several experiences in a war setting where we experienced very close incoming hits where there is no separation between the flash and the bang. My immediate responses to these situations has been to hit the ground without so much as a micro second of thought, coupled with the strong desire to burrow into the ground. This was fear galvanizing me to take action to procure my safety, as best I could, under the circumstances.

And i've had similar experiences with the emotion of anger.

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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by larsenb »

larsenb wrote: May 4th, 2021, 11:51 am . . . . . Ones you may relate to, are the several experiences in a war setting where we experienced very close incoming hits where there is no separation between the flash and the bang. My immediate responses to these situations has been to hit the ground without so much as a micro second of thought, coupled with the strong desire to burrow into the ground. This was fear galvanizing me to take action to procure my safety, as best I could, under the circumstances.

And i've had similar experiences with the emotion of anger.
And hitting the ground is a logical response because it is likely to get you below the blast cone if you are quick enough and perhaps far away enough from the incoming impact point.

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John Tavner
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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by John Tavner »

larsenb wrote: May 4th, 2021, 11:35 am
John Tavner wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 5:55 am . . .. .

One can be calm despite something or someone attempting to take their life. When remaining calm, one can still act. It is otherworldly because God is involved and gives us new life. You keep making hte assumption that one can not act unless they experience anger or fear even when something surprises them<---- that is not true. . . . . .
But John, give a bit more consideration to the scenario I’ve laid out for you. Seeing an open-jawed lion leaping for your throat would elicit an extreme fear response from you. You’re dreaming if you think you could “remain calm” during this kind of event.

And once more with feeling: I am not saying at all that you can’t act unless you feel anger. A complete lack of understanding of what I’ve been trying to convey.

You also sidestep describing something happening to you that fits what I’ve been suggesting.

I sincerely hope you can remain without fear while that lion is gobbling you up . . . . or without anger if you suddenly see a man beating your 8 year-old daughter. Of course, for you to be convinced that these situations eliciting fear or anger responses in your physiognomy, you may have to be wired up . . . . .
Do you not understand the power of faith? Death is not the end. WHen you stop fearing death and just start trusting God, things don't have the sting. Sons of Helaman, Sharach, Meshack and Abednego, Daniel and the Lions den, David and Goliath, Abinidi, Jesus Christ.When we fear death it elicits a response, but when all confidence is in God, we don't react the same or feel the same. It is a trust in Him that things will work out - however it does. You can receive instruction and "calm the seas" in situations like that. Anyways, this has devolved into a "nuh uh" "yah huh" situation, The natural man responds a certain way - it is "wired" to becuase the natural man is selfish and carnal. We are to cast that off and trust in God- am I saying I never feel fear - no, am I saying I never feel anger? No. Have I been in extreme situations where I haven't felt either, yes. All depends on how we are exercising our faith and belief in God. It is a spiritual gift from Him when we exercise faith properly, we shouldn't justify our weakness, because GOd makes our weakness strong if we come to Him, so I'm going to agree to disagree.

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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by harakim »

PDrockton.M.A. wrote: October 3rd, 2020, 10:08 pm Anger is a destroying fire that burns down everything it touches. Both the good and the bad. It ultimately leads the angry individual to loneliness and emptiness....

No matter how big the injustice. Remember, it is now or will eventually be in the past. Pray for forgiveness of everyone that has offended you. Rebuke anger. It is Satans number 1 tool for destroying mankind.
You should never be angry at another person. That just drives a divide between the two of you. You can be angry at an idea, that is fine, because ideas are mostly lies.

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Thinker
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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by Thinker »

Anger does serve purposes.

Although multiple factors influence physical health, beliefs - especially strong suppressed emotions like anger - can have major effects. I believe that the “Word was God” means in part, the need to put abstract ideas into words - that is a Divine ability our Heavenly Parents have given us. We need to use it to process emotions.

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Jamescm
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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by Jamescm »

I'm in the camp of "It's a tool, keep it controlled." The Jedi limit their power and emotional growth by denying that part of themselves. They never fully understand or empathize with others and thus can not be "at one" with them. They fail to reach rubido, they never self-actualize, they never confront their shadows, they fear their Id, and however else you can phrase it.

The Sith let their anger lead them. They recognize that it is part of them and that it grants them power... Then they gradually run wild with it.

This is why I left the Jedi order... And why I love Star Wars so much. All six episodes of it. I've had more than a few actually meaningful discussion and trains of thought based entirely on The Force. "Injustice radar" is a good way to put it, but it is also useful for helping me to understand what I may not understand correctly, or that I am not rational about. Like "Love", however, "Anger" is a very broadly loaded word, and this can lead to disagreement about scriptures to the effect of denouncing it... If I am correct.

Anger can rob me of everything I have, but it has also pushed me to heights of ability, achievement, and determination that I could never have reached without it. Not mere satisfaction of ego-preservation of family during emergencies has occurred in my life because I was up to the challenge physically or mentally, and that because of regular training and development that is fueled-here or there a little-by anger.

The drinking of alcohol can be had in moderation, but it is very easy to go too far and the consequences are devastating, and is 100% avoidable altogether. Anger is like this, but even if it were better to live without it, it is already in us all and is an unremovable part of us, and therefore must be confronted and controlled.

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Niemand
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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by Niemand »

Anger. Good or Bad?
The correct response is "I know the answer, and I'll fight anyone that says otherwise." 😉

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Momma J
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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by Momma J »

I tend to keep anger well checked. However, I have found that bursts of anger air out issues that I tend to keep lids on in order to maintain civility and peace. Some breathing is necessary for all issues. ;)

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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by anonymous91 »

Well, they made a whole tv series about it back in the day.

You wouldn't like me when I'm angry

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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by Valo »

PDrockton.M.A. wrote: October 3rd, 2020, 10:08 pm Anger is a destroying fire that burns down everything it touches. Both the good and the bad. It ultimately leads the angry individual to loneliness and emptiness....

No matter how big the injustice. Remember, it is now or will eventually be in the past. Pray for forgiveness of everyone that has offended you. Rebuke anger. It is Satans number 1 tool for destroying mankind.
Enmity the the number one tool.

Anger at injustice is appropriate but using anger righteously takes someone who has dedicated their life and have practiced "kung fu" for many years.

For those who have not mastered themselves, trying to use anger is like trying to ride a bucking and kicking iron horse that's white hot.

...

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