“Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

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TheDuke
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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by TheDuke »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 4th, 2023, 3:51 pm
TheDuke wrote: February 4th, 2023, 3:48 pm
you didn't quote the church, you quoted some GA's. church defines income as increase or interest as determined by you and the Lord. That is the formal guidance. If you are so inclined feel free to follow every whim of a GA, like those you quoted. I asked for Official LDS quotes. I got none. Just talks and webpages, no handbook or formal discussion.
Duke, I quoted the official position of the church, someone even quoted the handbook of instructions. ALL of them said income. BTW, you should know I don’t follow much of what the GAs and PSRs say these days, give me a little credit there. :)

Since you brought it up, please show me the official (as in current) LDS org definition on tithing. If it’s not in those quotes I noted, they they are really good at absconding and being vague.
OK words from the HOLY handbook

Note: income or interest is never defined and the statements then derive to increase. PERIOD. Not even an attempt to define it. and it declares that not everyone has need to pay tithes either. You are attaching yourself to improper definitions, which abound, but are not LDS doctrine. Show me where "increase", "interest", or "income" are defined. AGI, MAGI, business net after taxes, personal increase after expenses? You are making up definitions because for so many years you identified with one and now you are smarter and think because you misunderstood, it is the churches fault. You should have know all this stuff while a HC?

Tithing is the donation of one-tenth of one’s income to God’s Church (see Doctrine and Covenants 119:3–4; interest is understood to mean income). All members who have income should pay tithing.

Valo
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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Valo »

John Tavner wrote: February 4th, 2023, 3:36 pm
Valo wrote: February 4th, 2023, 1:21 pm
John Tavner wrote: February 4th, 2023, 12:21 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 4th, 2023, 12:21 pm
We’re not talking about the same things here. I’m not talking about people that sin. I’m talking about wickedness vs righteousness. God will never make sin “right.”
He makes sinners right. You were wrong once. Now you are right... if you believe. God constantly transforms that which the devil has made wrong and makes it for hte good of Man. That is making what is wrong, right.
No God is not a magical fairy who transforms a person from being a fat, lazy undisciplined, irresponsible, unaccountable, and wretched loser to something good.

That's utter rubbish to teach anyone that in the name of Christ.

If you are overweight and undisciplined, you aren't gonna get healthy and disciplined by God transforming you from a fat worm to a lean athlete who can fly.

A person needs to exercise faith which is WORK. So if you're overweight and you want to lose 30 pounds then you are going to have to do more than pray and asked God to forgive you for your binging and unhealthy living. A person doesn't become a lean, mean, fighting for God machine by being undisciplined and lazy and without work. If you are not working towards your salvation and are expecting God to transform you then it can only be because you lack faith.

...
I think you might be reading some wrong things into what I've said. If not, it doesn't matter, I've had my experience with God and HE did transform me from a "fat worm" into a "new creation." Self-righteousness will only lead to self-condemnation. "As a man thinketh, so Is he." I would guess that you and I define faith differently as well.
You don't have a new creation until after the resurrection. You have a Christ Seed in you and you nourish that seed or you neglect it.

Taking care of a tree that you are depending on for life and you want and desire the fruit of that tree requires you know what you are doing and it requires you do it. The seed neglected will not grow right or might even die and it won't be because the seed was evil.

Repentance requires that we surrender the path that leads us away from God, even if the path is right next to God's path and is barely a little misaligned even imperceptibly so, it will eventually veer off to hell.

After the resurrection, if you identified with the Christ Seed and nourished it with your faith then you will rise again a New Creature in Christ with a glorious Eternal, Incorruptible Body of Light, Life, and Truth. All things of this Earth will not survive and any birth here will not have any bearing on the New Earth unless one Took on the identity of the Christ Seed and nourished it with their faith during the day.

...

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: February 4th, 2023, 4:01 pm
OK words from the HOLY handbook

Note: income or interest is never defined and the statements then derive to increase. PERIOD. Not even an attempt to define it. and it declares that not everyone has need to pay tithes either. You are attaching yourself to improper definitions, which abound, but are not LDS doctrine. Show me where "increase", "interest", or "income" are defined. AGI, MAGI, business net after taxes, personal increase after expenses? You are making up definitions because for so many years you identified with one and now you are smarter and think because you misunderstood, it is the churches fault. You should have know all this stuff while a HC?

Tithing is the donation of one-tenth of one’s income to God’s Church (see Doctrine and Covenants 119:3–4; interest is understood to mean income). All members who have income should pay tithing.
You mean UNholy handbook. :)

I find it funny how you have to explain away the definition from the church. You may not believe that “interest” or “income” is ever defined, but it is. That’s why I showed you all of those quotes, they are granular as to the how and what of tithing. And no, I am not making things up… but I do think you are being extremely myopic.

And yes, I do believe I am smart enough to study church history and realize what the heck happened in our day and see the prophecies in scripture that spell out all of the corruption. I do believe God gave us a brain for a reason. :)

I’m done discussing tithing btw, I tend to be good at thread drifting.

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HereWeGo
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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by HereWeGo »

LDS CHURCH Handbook
34.3.1
Tithing
Tithing is the donation of one-tenth of one’s income to God’s Church (see Doctrine and Covenants 119:3–4; interest is understood to mean income).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng

Here it is again, Duke. Official Church doctrine on the official Church website. There is no question that the Church defines interest as INCOME. Each of us can choose to pay on Gross or Net of our INCOME.


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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

“I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky."

I guess we all have our own way of defining things. :)

“Clinton admitted in taped grand jury testimony on August 17, 1998, that he had engaged in an "improper physical relationship" with Lewinsky. That evening he gave a nationally televised statement admitting that his relationship with Lewinsky was "not appropriate"

A true politician:

“Clinton later said, "I thought the definition included any activity by [me], where was the actor and came in contact with those parts of the bodies" which had been explicitly listed (and "with an intent to gratify or arouse the sexual desire of any person"). In other words, Clinton denied that he had ever contacted Lewinsky's "genitalia, anus, groin, breast, inner thigh, or buttocks", and effectively claimed that the agreed-upon definition of "sexual relations" included giving oral sex but excluded receiving oral sex.”

————

Now bring this into LDS culture.

LDS: We’re not perfect and makes mistakes.
Also LDS: We can never lead you astray.

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TheDuke
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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by TheDuke »

HereWeGo wrote: February 4th, 2023, 4:21 pm LDS CHURCH Handbook
34.3.1
Tithing
Tithing is the donation of one-tenth of one’s income to God’s Church (see Doctrine and Covenants 119:3–4; interest is understood to mean income).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng

Here it is again, Duke. Official Church doctrine on the official Church website. There is no question that the Church defines interest as INCOME. Each of us can choose to pay on Gross or Net of our INCOME.
ok, but show me where the church defines income, gross, net, etc.... it doesn't exist and is left up to each person/family. For example to me, I've never felt the exorbitant taxes are income. Anyone on here with a reasonable income will see that paying $70k to $100k a year in taxes is not of value or income, not to mention other expenses. I had a discussion with my bishop 30 years ago, and then decided if it was ok with the Lord for him (a business owner) to use IRS/basic accounting costs as non-income, then for us non-business folks it should be the same. I guess that is what you are calling "net" above, yes? If so I agree it is up to us.

What I found interesting in the quote is that no all members have income or tithable basis. Sense everyone needs money to exist, this smacks of accepting some have money coming in that does not meet the minimum "income" requirement of tithing. But others wish to say the church requires tithes of the poor. Sort of like listening to my local politicians complaining that sales tax is racist as it taxes blacks more as they spend less money.... escapes me because if you spend less money you pay less sales tax?

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: February 4th, 2023, 4:31 pm
HereWeGo wrote: February 4th, 2023, 4:21 pm LDS CHURCH Handbook
34.3.1
Tithing
Tithing is the donation of one-tenth of one’s income to God’s Church (see Doctrine and Covenants 119:3–4; interest is understood to mean income).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng

Here it is again, Duke. Official Church doctrine on the official Church website. There is no question that the Church defines interest as INCOME. Each of us can choose to pay on Gross or Net of our INCOME.
ok, but show me where the church defines income, gross, net, etc.... it doesn't exist and is left up to each person/family. For example to me, I've never felt the exorbitant taxes are income. Anyone on here with a reasonable income will see that paying $70k to $100k a year in taxes is not of value or income, not to mention other expenses. I had a discussion with my bishop 30 years ago, and then decided if it was ok with the Lord for him (a business owner) to use IRS/basic accounting costs as non-income, then for us non-business folks it should be the same. I guess that is what you are calling "net" above, yes? If so I agree it is up to us.

What I found interesting in the quote is that no all members have income or tithable basis. Sense everyone needs money to exist, this smacks of accepting some have money coming in that does not meet the minimum "income" requirement of tithing. But others wish to say the church requires tithes of the poor. Sort of like listening to my local politicians complaining that sales tax is racist as it taxes blacks more as they spend less money.... escapes me because if you spend less money you pay less sales tax?
Duke, I did show you in those quotes. But you shrugged them off because they are some half-assed GA nobody… oh, and they are quoted on the website and in manuals and literature. No biggy, right?

This is on the official website and in the manual talking about tithing:

“What is an honest tithing?”

“Tithing means one-tenth. Those who give less do not really pay tithing; they are lesser contributors to the Latter-day cause of the Lord. Tithing means one-tenth of a person’s income, interest, or increase. The merchant should pay tithing upon the net income of his business, the farmer upon the net income of his farming operations; the wage earner or salaried man upon the wage or salary earned by him. Out of the remaining nine-tenths he pays his current expenses … etc. To deduct living costs … and similar expenses from the income and pay tithing upon the remainder does not conform to the Lord’s commandment. Under such a system most people would show nothing on which to pay tithing. There is really no place for quibbling on this point. Tithing should be given upon the basis of our full earned income. If the nature of a business requires special interpretation, the tithepayer should consult the father of his ward, the bishop.” (Evidences and Reconciliations, 2:86.)

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

And even more in general convergence and the Ensign:

Elder Lynn Robbins, April 2005: "Is there a level of poverty so low that sacrifice should not be expected or a family so destitute that paying tithing should cease to be required? Like the widow, if a destitute family is faced with the decision of paying their tithing or eating, they should pay their tithing.”

Elder Aaron West, Dec. 2012 Ensign: “If paying tithing means that you can’t pay for water or electricity, pay tithing. If paying tithing means that you can’t pay your rent, pay tithing. Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing.”

So much for not continuing the thread drift. :)

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TheDuke
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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by TheDuke »

I've made my point Reluctant, you can just keep quoting websites and GA's I quoted the full resources of the handbook which is official policy. Don't care about (Evidences and Reconciliations, 2:86.) or Lynn Robbins.............................................. you just keep reconfirming my earlier statements. I will just finish with QED!

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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: February 4th, 2023, 4:40 pm I've made my point Reluctant, you can just keep quoting websites and GA's I quoted the full resources of the handbook which is official policy. Don't care about (Evidences and Reconciliations, 2:86.) or Lynn Robbins.............................................. you just keep reconfirming my earlier statements. I will just finish with QED!
Like I said, myopic. :)

I’m actually happy that you are cafeteria member, picking and choosing what resonates with you. I just find that you are extremely lenient or dismissive on what the church actually teaches.

There’s a reason members should be confused by the mixed messages.

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Seed Starter
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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Seed Starter »

TheDuke wrote: February 4th, 2023, 4:31 pm
HereWeGo wrote: February 4th, 2023, 4:21 pm LDS CHURCH Handbook
34.3.1
Tithing
Tithing is the donation of one-tenth of one’s income to God’s Church (see Doctrine and Covenants 119:3–4; interest is understood to mean income).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng

Here it is again, Duke. Official Church doctrine on the official Church website. There is no question that the Church defines interest as INCOME. Each of us can choose to pay on Gross or Net of our INCOME.
ok, but show me where the church defines income, gross, net, etc.... it doesn't exist and is left up to each person/family. For example to me, I've never felt the exorbitant taxes are income. Anyone on here with a reasonable income will see that paying $70k to $100k a year in taxes is not of value or income, not to mention other expenses. I had a discussion with my bishop 30 years ago, and then decided if it was ok with the Lord for him (a business owner) to use IRS/basic accounting costs as non-income, then for us non-business folks it should be the same. I guess that is what you are calling "net" above, yes? If so I agree it is up to us.

What I found interesting in the quote is that no all members have income or tithable basis. Sense everyone needs money to exist, this smacks of accepting some have money coming in that does not meet the minimum "income" requirement of tithing. But others wish to say the church requires tithes of the poor. Sort of like listening to my local politicians complaining that sales tax is racist as it taxes blacks more as they spend less money.... escapes me because if you spend less money you pay less sales tax?
Duke, if you are a W2 employee and have direct deposit income totaling $90,000 in a year how much will you send to the church in the same year in order to be considered a full tithe payer? The Sunday school answer is of course $9,000 but I'd like to know what you think.

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TheDuke
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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by TheDuke »

Seed Starter wrote: February 4th, 2023, 5:12 pm
Duke, if you are a W2 employee and have direct deposit income totaling $90,000 in a year how much will you send to the church in the same year in order to be considered a full tithe payer? The Sunday school answer is of course $9,000 but I'd like to know what you think.
I'm almost afraid to ask that question, it is really none of my business and I don't buy, if you've seen my posts that the SS answer is valid, even if mentioned by a SS teacher. Now, often associated with the $9,000 value, "you cannot go wrong".

But, I will take a hypothetical shot at what the Lord and I have worked out. but remember mileage may very.

What is you're increase? that is the value we seek. to me, increase doesn't count nominal costs of living. but things get strange then down the road. I don't feel taxes are an increase, I get little from them others think I get freedom, fine. Anyway I don't pay on taxes. Lets say of the $90,000, I bring home $75,000 after taxes. I also include all taxes, SS, Medicare, IRS, union dues, and for me even medical premiums that I may or may not get any use of during the year (haven't met minimum deductible yet, not one year). So, I see a bring home now of $65,000. I don't pay on my retirement savings, 401K. But now when I get SS and 401k, I will need to pay taxes, my dad paid up front and never in retirement, you pick. But lets say actual take home is now $60,000.

I would say $6,000 seems right to me, that was where I was years ago. Now I'm retired and the locals are all over me. I pay say $6,000 in property tax as well. Increase in now $54,000. To me having car insurance and house insurance is not an increase, the best I get for this is same car or house. That is $4000 for me. Now increase is $50,000. So, generally, using these numbers I feel pretty darn good and the Lord has accepted $5,000 in tithing.

I may not suggest, but it is not my position to know, but if I had a mother or parent with me with expenses, I'd deduct them. I don't feel like electricity is an increase, nor water, nor garbage these days, but getting to where you'd need to pray about these things. But, it does say increase. What if on top of my $90,000 the IRS sees $5,000 in bank interest and gains. Maybe another $500 tithing? but then what if that is only 5% and we had 8% inflation, would that interest be really increase? I doubt the Lord would think so. What if I had a $5,000 medical bill? lost money there, seems like decrease to offset some other increase. From there on, you need to just think about what the original intent of "increase" was.

How much more do you have than last year? BTW I didn't go there but last year all of my investments increased less than 1% with an 8% inflation. Given I'm retired and my wife makes a pittance (well folks on here might think it is a lot). I could make a case that the Lord is in the rears perhaps a lot. but then I never paid on most of my investments as they are pre-tax, and I didn't pay. So thankfully, it just reduces the amount I owe the Lord when I realize the gains.

REMEMBER don't hold me to this if the Lord tells you otherwise!

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John Tavner
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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by John Tavner »

Valo wrote: February 4th, 2023, 4:08 pm
John Tavner wrote: February 4th, 2023, 3:36 pm
Valo wrote: February 4th, 2023, 1:21 pm
John Tavner wrote: February 4th, 2023, 12:21 pm

He makes sinners right. You were wrong once. Now you are right... if you believe. God constantly transforms that which the devil has made wrong and makes it for hte good of Man. That is making what is wrong, right.
No God is not a magical fairy who transforms a person from being a fat, lazy undisciplined, irresponsible, unaccountable, and wretched loser to something good.

That's utter rubbish to teach anyone that in the name of Christ.

If you are overweight and undisciplined, you aren't gonna get healthy and disciplined by God transforming you from a fat worm to a lean athlete who can fly.

A person needs to exercise faith which is WORK. So if you're overweight and you want to lose 30 pounds then you are going to have to do more than pray and asked God to forgive you for your binging and unhealthy living. A person doesn't become a lean, mean, fighting for God machine by being undisciplined and lazy and without work. If you are not working towards your salvation and are expecting God to transform you then it can only be because you lack faith.

...
I think you might be reading some wrong things into what I've said. If not, it doesn't matter, I've had my experience with God and HE did transform me from a "fat worm" into a "new creation." Self-righteousness will only lead to self-condemnation. "As a man thinketh, so Is he." I would guess that you and I define faith differently as well.
You don't have a new creation until after the resurrection. You have a Christ Seed in you and you nourish that seed or you neglect it.

Taking care of a tree that you are depending on for life and you want and desire the fruit of that tree requires you know what you are doing and it requires you do it. The seed neglected will not grow right or might even die and it won't be because the seed was evil.

Repentance requires that we surrender the path that leads us away from God, even if the path is right next to God's path and is barely a little misaligned even imperceptibly so, it will eventually veer off to hell.

After the resurrection, if you identified with the Christ Seed and nourished it with your faith then you will rise again a New Creature in Christ with a glorious Eternal, Incorruptible Body of Light, Life, and Truth. All things of this Earth will not survive and any birth here will not have any bearing on the New Earth unless one Took on the identity of the Christ Seed and nourished it with their faith during the day.

...
This scripture says otherwise.
…16So from now on we regard no one according to the flesh. Although we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come!18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s trespasses against them.

Here are more: To put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me.

We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

Ought we not to live with an eye of faith?

Repentance is turning towards God and receiving what He has offered us. It changes our mind. I agree it requires submission and surrender ,but as the the scripture says " 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life." Do we believe we are His workmanship? Do we submit to it? As one begins to know God, it in itself is life changing. John tells us "6We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. That is how we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of deception. 7Beloved, let us love one another, because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9This is how God’s love was revealed among us: God sent His one and only Son into the world, so that we might live through Him." the rest is really good too.

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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

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TheDuke wrote: February 4th, 2023, 5:33 pm
Seed Starter wrote: February 4th, 2023, 5:12 pm
Duke, if you are a W2 employee and have direct deposit income totaling $90,000 in a year how much will you send to the church in the same year in order to be considered a full tithe payer? The Sunday school answer is of course $9,000 but I'd like to know what you think.
I'm almost afraid to ask that question, it is really none of my business and I don't buy, if you've seen my posts that the SS answer is valid, even if mentioned by a SS teacher. Now, often associated with the $9,000 value, "you cannot go wrong".

But, I will take a hypothetical shot at what the Lord and I have worked out. but remember mileage may very.

What is you're increase? that is the value we seek. to me, increase doesn't count nominal costs of living. but things get strange then down the road. I don't feel taxes are an increase, I get little from them others think I get freedom, fine. Anyway I don't pay on taxes. Lets say of the $90,000, I bring home $75,000 after taxes. I also include all taxes, SS, Medicare, IRS, union dues, and for me even medical premiums that I may or may not get any use of during the year (haven't met minimum deductible yet, not one year). So, I see a bring home now of $65,000. I don't pay on my retirement savings, 401K. But now when I get SS and 401k, I will need to pay taxes, my dad paid up front and never in retirement, you pick. But lets say actual take home is now $60,000.

I would say $6,000 seems right to me, that was where I was years ago. Now I'm retired and the locals are all over me. I pay say $6,000 in property tax as well. Increase in now $54,000. To me having car insurance and house insurance is not an increase, the best I get for this is same car or house. That is $4000 for me. Now increase is $50,000. So, generally, using these numbers I feel pretty darn good and the Lord has accepted $5,000 in tithing.

I may not suggest, but it is not my position to know, but if I had a mother or parent with me with expenses, I'd deduct them. I don't feel like electricity is an increase, nor water, nor garbage these days, but getting to where you'd need to pray about these things. But, it does say increase. What if on top of my $90,000 the IRS sees $5,000 in bank interest and gains. Maybe another $500 tithing? but then what if that is only 5% and we had 8% inflation, would that interest be really increase? I doubt the Lord would think so. What if I had a $5,000 medical bill? lost money there, seems like decrease to offset some other increase. From there on, you need to just think about what the original intent of "increase" was.

How much more do you have than last year? BTW I didn't go there but last year all of my investments increased less than 1% with an 8% inflation. Given I'm retired and my wife makes a pittance (well folks on here might think it is a lot). I could make a case that the Lord is in the rears perhaps a lot. but then I never paid on most of my investments as they are pre-tax, and I didn't pay. So thankfully, it just reduces the amount I owe the Lord when I realize the gains.

REMEMBER don't hold me to this if the Lord tells you otherwise!
Thanks for the explanation Duke. I paid $130K for my house in 2004. I could sell my house now for around $450k without any major improvements other than maintenance. Should I pay tithing on that $320k increase minus inflation? Do you? If property values drop should I decrease my yearly tithing payment by an equivalent amount? I wouldn't recommend making a case that the Lord is ever in the rears. I know you said you could, not that you did.

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TheDuke
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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by TheDuke »

Seed Starter wrote: February 4th, 2023, 6:36 pm
TheDuke wrote: February 4th, 2023, 5:33 pm
Seed Starter wrote: February 4th, 2023, 5:12 pm
Duke, if you are a W2 employee and have direct deposit income totaling $90,000 in a year how much will you send to the church in the same year in order to be considered a full tithe payer? The Sunday school answer is of course $9,000 but I'd like to know what you think.
I'm almost afraid to ask that question, it is really none of my business and I don't buy, if you've seen my posts that the SS answer is valid, even if mentioned by a SS teacher. Now, often associated with the $9,000 value, "you cannot go wrong".

But, I will take a hypothetical shot at what the Lord and I have worked out. but remember mileage may very.

What is you're increase? that is the value we seek. to me, increase doesn't count nominal costs of living. but things get strange then down the road. I don't feel taxes are an increase, I get little from them others think I get freedom, fine. Anyway I don't pay on taxes. Lets say of the $90,000, I bring home $75,000 after taxes. I also include all taxes, SS, Medicare, IRS, union dues, and for me even medical premiums that I may or may not get any use of during the year (haven't met minimum deductible yet, not one year). So, I see a bring home now of $65,000. I don't pay on my retirement savings, 401K. But now when I get SS and 401k, I will need to pay taxes, my dad paid up front and never in retirement, you pick. But lets say actual take home is now $60,000.

I would say $6,000 seems right to me, that was where I was years ago. Now I'm retired and the locals are all over me. I pay say $6,000 in property tax as well. Increase in now $54,000. To me having car insurance and house insurance is not an increase, the best I get for this is same car or house. That is $4000 for me. Now increase is $50,000. So, generally, using these numbers I feel pretty darn good and the Lord has accepted $5,000 in tithing.

I may not suggest, but it is not my position to know, but if I had a mother or parent with me with expenses, I'd deduct them. I don't feel like electricity is an increase, nor water, nor garbage these days, but getting to where you'd need to pray about these things. But, it does say increase. What if on top of my $90,000 the IRS sees $5,000 in bank interest and gains. Maybe another $500 tithing? but then what if that is only 5% and we had 8% inflation, would that interest be really increase? I doubt the Lord would think so. What if I had a $5,000 medical bill? lost money there, seems like decrease to offset some other increase. From there on, you need to just think about what the original intent of "increase" was.

How much more do you have than last year? BTW I didn't go there but last year all of my investments increased less than 1% with an 8% inflation. Given I'm retired and my wife makes a pittance (well folks on here might think it is a lot). I could make a case that the Lord is in the rears perhaps a lot. but then I never paid on most of my investments as they are pre-tax, and I didn't pay. So thankfully, it just reduces the amount I owe the Lord when I realize the gains.

REMEMBER don't hold me to this if the Lord tells you otherwise!
Thanks for the explanation Duke. I paid $130K for my house in 2004. I could sell my house now for around $450k without any major improvements other than maintenance. Should I pay tithing on that $320k increase minus inflation? Do you? If property values drop should I decrease my yearly tithing payment by an equivalent amount? I wouldn't recommend making a case that the Lord is ever in the rears. I know you said you could, not that you did.
I'm not the one to ask but since you did. I will provide a few seeds for thought. So you have $320k value, to me not realized, you may never realize a gain until you sell it. but how much have you paid for that house, as an increase, not going to consider the fact you lived in it and obtained possibly some increase in joy. But, you paid 19 years in taxes to get the home, and some mortgage interest, perhaps mortgage insurance, perhaps points on loan, annual insurance, not sure about maintenance costs. but, me I don't frankly see much increase. Did the farmers in Joseph or Brigham's day see increases in land value or tithing? In 2004 I made 40% of what I made in 2021. My car was 40% the price today? is $450k in 2023 more than $130k in 2004? is it more than cost of living increase in 19 years? Me I would worry about these details when I downsized my home, not before, but that is me. and then you'd likely be paying Barack a fee to consider as well.

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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by David13 »

BenMcCrea wrote: February 4th, 2023, 11:16 am I really hope, those of you who sit on self appointed seats of judgement and accusation, that your own lives are in order and beyond reproach. The Lord’s sceptre of judgement will come down heavily upon those who spend their lives judging and accusing others - especially if they themselves are not spotless.

Well now, you are being a little judgmental and accusatory here, no? Yes?

And not even on your own behalf, but as a self appointed spokesman for the Lord.
dc

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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Rumpelstiltskin »

Enos 1:22 And there were exceedingly many prophets among us. And the people were a stiffnecked people, hard to understand.

23 And there was nothing save it was exceeding harshness, preaching and prophesying of wars, and contentions, and destructions, and continually reminding them of death, and the duration of eternity, and the judgments and the power of God, and all these things—stirring them up continually to keep them in the fear of the Lord. I say there was nothing short of these things, and exceedingly great plainness of speech, would keep them from going down speedily to destruction. And after this manner do I write concerning them.

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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by anonymous91 »

BenMcCrea wrote: February 4th, 2023, 11:16 am I really hope, those of you who sit on self appointed seats of judgement and accusation, that your own lives are in order and beyond reproach. The Lord’s sceptre of judgement will come down heavily upon those who spend their lives judging and accusing others - especially if they themselves are not spotless.
So we are saved by our works? :shock: I've had it wrong this whole time. 8-)

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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by anonymous91 »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 4th, 2023, 12:09 pm
Thinker wrote: February 4th, 2023, 11:04 am I think life happens in stages. Luckily we’re not asked to do anything unpleasant for too long. Eventually someone else takes the baton. For a while, I felt pulled toward warning people about things (like harmful homosexuality becoming normalized, church financial corruption, abortion facts, etc.). A lot of my preaching was on forums of which I was the only one sharing those views. I was hated, called names, banned & 1 guy even stocked & threatened to kill me. Definitely not a fun job. But at the time, I felt obligated to shed light on things. And occasionally someone would tell me they appreciated & never considered some things I brought up. Hopefully some good came out of it.

But it took a toll, & though occasionally I still shed light on “inconvenient truths,” generally, I’ve chilled a bit. But I am really glad for others like you who keep shedding light on important things, even if they’re truths many take to be hard.

Paraphrasing: “Maturity is based on the number and type of truths one is able to handle.”
A big part of life is increasing our capacity for truth/God.
I’m trying to get to a place where I can find a happy medium. I think that was the intent of how I set up my essays: Exposing Darkness, Revealing Light. In reality, I need to spend more time on the light. That’s one of the reasons I stopped studying polygamy and slew of other topics. I satisfied my understanding and moved on. I really should take that to heart when responding on the forum.

BTW, cheers to doing what you felt was right amidst opposition. That has been one of the toughest things to overcome. Speaking my conscience has destroyed decades-old friendships and shredded family relationships.

I think that this has something to do with what all of us go through in life. For some, that is over losing a loved one, for others that are healing from abuse, for others betrayal and/or other life-altering events.

Each of us go through these stages when dealing with certain events in our lives. Depending on the severity of the situation, there may be multiple layers to uncover (similar to an onion) to each of these stages. For each of us, this process looks different, and each of us moves at our own pace.

When you wake up to the realization that all is not right in Zion, remove the rose-colored glasses, you have to face a bit of cognitive dissonance which can be quite jarring. It is natural to start going through these stages as you process everything.

The 7 stages of Grief:

1 Shock.
2. Denial.
3. Anger.
4. Bargaining.
5. Depression.
6. Acceptance and Hope.
7. Processing Grief.

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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by anonymous91 »

TheDuke wrote: February 4th, 2023, 4:31 pm
HereWeGo wrote: February 4th, 2023, 4:21 pm LDS CHURCH Handbook
34.3.1
Tithing
Tithing is the donation of one-tenth of one’s income to God’s Church (see Doctrine and Covenants 119:3–4; interest is understood to mean income).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng

Here it is again, Duke. Official Church doctrine on the official Church website. There is no question that the Church defines interest as INCOME. Each of us can choose to pay on Gross or Net of our INCOME.
ok, but show me where the church defines income, gross, net, etc.... it doesn't exist and is left up to each person/family. For example to me, I've never felt the exorbitant taxes are income. Anyone on here with a reasonable income will see that paying $70k to $100k a year in taxes is not of value or income, not to mention other expenses. I had a discussion with my bishop 30 years ago, and then decided if it was ok with the Lord for him (a business owner) to use IRS/basic accounting costs as non-income, then for us non-business folks it should be the same. I guess that is what you are calling "net" above, yes? If so I agree it is up to us.

What I found interesting in the quote is that no all members have income or tithable basis. Sense everyone needs money to exist, this smacks of accepting some have money coming in that does not meet the minimum "income" requirement of tithing. But others wish to say the church requires tithes of the poor. Sort of like listening to my local politicians complaining that sales tax is racist as it taxes blacks more as they spend less money.... escapes me because if you spend less money you pay less sales tax?
Personally, I don't agree with how the "official church" chooses to preach about this in church culture. I can't tell you how many times growing up I heard that you could choose to either pay on your net or gross income, but you'll get more blessings paying on your gross income.

Here's where things get really murky though. How one chooses to define income, is what this boils down to.

For the average Joe, this comes down to their 2-week paycheck. For example, if that check is for $1,200 before taxes, but $1,000 after taxes are taken out then most church leaders would tell that person to pay either $100 on the net or if they want all the blessings 🙄 they can pay $120 on the gross.

This is where it gets really murky though. What about someone who owns their own business? What is considered your net then? Well, if you go by the definition of tax laws then you have all kinds of deductions that are not considered net. Such as car expenses, gas, office, computer, phone bills, and so forth. In essence, owning your own business you could be making 2-3+ as much as the average Joe, yet be paying less in tithing.

Better yet, you get really good and follow in the footsteps of Robert Kiyosaki you intentionally go into debt. Now, you have zero net income, lol. So, I guess you can be a billionaire and pay no taxes or tithing. SMH

For myself, I am asking the question of what is the purpose of tithes? How does God want me to pay tithes? Still finding answers right now. At present, I feel strongly about not paying tithing to an organization that is using these finances for wicked purposes, that have even caused deaths (aka the vaccines).

I'm asking what a proper amount of tithing is that I should be paying. Taking into account the story of the widow's mite. I think that the answer to this question is not a one size fits all. I realize that part of this is our faith in God, and that he has asked us to pay tithes.

If I don't pay my tithing to the church, how or where do I pay it? Does it matter to God? I realize that just giving someone money in need may not be the wisest choice. That old saying give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach a man to fish he eats for a lifetime. Is this something I should even be concerned with, or should I just let God worry about all of the details? If so, is God even concerned about where or to whom I pay tithing as long as I just do it?

When Jesus came he provided a higher law.
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
What does this mean for the law of tithing? Does that mean this is not necessarily talking about money? Rather could it mean service to my fellow man? How does God want me to apply this in my life?

I've got a lot more questions along these lines, and slowly working through seeking God's will in my life.

Bottom Line: I've got a lot of questions, and searching for the answers. I'm not sure if anyone is in the same boat.

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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Thinker »

anonymous91 wrote: February 5th, 2023, 4:14 am…When Jesus came he provided a higher law.
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
What does this mean for the law of tithing? Does that mean this is not necessarily talking about money? Rather could it mean service to my fellow man? How does God want me to apply this in my life?

I've got a lot more questions along these lines, and slowly working through seeking God's will in my life.

Bottom Line: I've got a lot of questions, and searching for the answers. I'm not sure if anyone is in the same boat.
Awesome that you’re searching & considering what Christ means. I can relate.

When you consider that maybe God isn’t so interested in the US dollar or other currency, but is interested in how well you love God/truth, yourself & others… it puts a different spin on some parables and everything, really!

I heard another tithing interpretation - which sees through the lens of Christ saying, “the kingdom of God is within you.” It’s the notion (which may’ve been debunked but hear me out), that we use only 10% of our neurological potential, and if we give that 10% - our all, God saves us, but whoever clings to their 10% (pride), they lose their spirituality vitality.

I imagine there are multiple potential possible interpretations.

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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Juliet »

Ok sure... but did you see what happened to all those prophets that pointed out the sins of people? I mean, if you want to do that; you have to be willing to pay the price. I don't even think it's effective. If you are going to be inspired by God to tell someone of their sins; it's because there is a chance doing so will help them repent. Sometimes...people cannot be reached by preaching the word because they are so ashamed of themselves they can't even handle criticism or words that would help them improve. I prayed extensively over the Covid-19 issue and how the church handled it. I personally did not feel that Pres Nelson or our leaders did something against God. This is because; everyone who wanted to stay home from church was given the manual and was able to do so. Everyone who didn't want their children to attend BYU or go on a mission was not forced into it. Everyone has the Holy Spirit, so no one can blame Pres. Nelson if the Holy Spirit told you to stay home; the church gave us all the resources we needed to do so. Had the church told us we must get vaccinated so as to attend church; that would be different.

We operate in a church that has to do what David did to King Saul.... the government is King Saul and is ready to "kill" anyone who opposes it. We learned this when we utilized freedom of speech against prop 8 and the members were persecuted. I think God will ask certain individuals to suffer with Him; but I don't think it is a tenant of our faith to purposely volunteer to suffer if it isn't effective (I know the scripture about having tribulation in the world; that doesn't mean we go looking for it). Jesus actually does want to protect us. This means, we don't always fight the enemy. Sometimes, we escape the enemy. And God doesn't always promise to annihilate the enemy. Sometimes all God does is provide a way for escape. This allows everyone a free will and opportunity to choose whether or not they will listen to the Holy Spirit; the receiving of divine revelation from which is still a tenant of our religion.

I think Pres. Nelson played his cards well.

Now, does that mean the Holy Spirit does not witness of corruption in the church? I would assume there is corruption, was it not such that murdered Joseph Smith? But does this mean the endowment is no longer true? I still feel the Holy Spirit witness to me that it is true. So; moving forward as a member, it requires us to stand with the Holy Spirit...

And while I feel the Holy Spirit witness to me of corruption in the church...and people in leadership and members who are struggling under the bondage of sin that is common to man; the Holy Spirit has not testified to me to spend my time testifying of other people's sins; especially when I still have my own to work on. God has a way of revealing the sins of the wicked when the time is right. Until then, it's not my responsibility to speak badly about someone because of their sins; as if I had some authority to do that. Maybe if someone is engaged in criminal activity, law enforcement has a responsibility to do it. If people want to join together and do an investigation in the place of law enforcement as citizens; that's a good idea.... and when proper evidence of criminal activity is found, then let's have a discussion on it.

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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Juliet wrote: February 5th, 2023, 4:44 pm Ok sure... but did you see what happened to all those prophets that pointed out the sins of people? I mean, if you want to do that; you have to be willing to pay the price. I don't even think it's effective. If you are going to be inspired by God to tell someone of their sins; it's because there is a chance doing so will help them repent. Sometimes...people cannot be reached by preaching the word because they are so ashamed of themselves they can't even handle criticism or words that would help them improve. I prayed extensively over the Covid-19 issue and how the church handled it. I personally did not feel that Pres Nelson or our leaders did something against God. This is because; everyone who wanted to stay home from church was given the manual and was able to do so. Everyone who didn't want their children to attend BYU or go on a mission was not forced into it. Everyone has the Holy Spirit, so no one can blame Pres. Nelson if the Holy Spirit told you to stay home; the church gave us all the resources we needed to do so. Had the church told us we must get vaccinated so as to attend church; that would be different.

We operate in a church that has to do what David did to King Saul.... the government is King Saul and is ready to "kill" anyone who opposes it. We learned this when we utilized freedom of speech against prop 8 and the members were persecuted. I think God will ask certain individuals to suffer with Him; but I don't think it is a tenant of our faith to purposely volunteer to suffer if it isn't effective (I know the scripture about having tribulation in the world; that doesn't mean we go looking for it). Jesus actually does want to protect us. This means, we don't always fight the enemy. Sometimes, we escape the enemy. And God doesn't always promise to annihilate the enemy. Sometimes all God does is provide a way for escape. This allows everyone a free will and opportunity to choose whether or not they will listen to the Holy Spirit; the receiving of divine revelation from which is still a tenant of our religion.

I think Pres. Nelson played his cards well.

Now, does that mean the Holy Spirit does not witness of corruption in the church? I would assume there is corruption, was it not such that murdered Joseph Smith? But does this mean the endowment is no longer true? I still feel the Holy Spirit witness to me that it is true. So; moving forward as a member, it requires us to stand with the Holy Spirit...

And while I feel the Holy Spirit witness to me of corruption in the church...and people in leadership and members who are struggling under the bondage of sin that is common to man; the Holy Spirit has not testified to me to spend my time testifying of other people's sins; especially when I still have my own to work on. God has a way of revealing the sins of the wicked when the time is right. Until then, it's not my responsibility to speak badly about someone because of their sins; as if I had some authority to do that. Maybe if someone is engaged in criminal activity, law enforcement has a responsibility to do it. If people want to join together and do an investigation in the place of law enforcement as citizens; that's a good idea.... and when proper evidence of criminal activity is found, then let's have a discussion on it.
Do you think God gave us the jab? Do you think God authorized Nelson to say that this came from God?

What they did was wrong. And that’s putting it lightly.

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Re: “Your constant cynicism, accusatory tone, and subtle insinuations are tiresome…”

Post by Juliet »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 5th, 2023, 8:55 pm
Juliet wrote: February 5th, 2023, 4:44 pm Ok sure... but did you see what happened to all those prophets that pointed out the sins of people? I mean, if you want to do that; you have to be willing to pay the price. I don't even think it's effective. If you are going to be inspired by God to tell someone of their sins; it's because there is a chance doing so will help them repent. Sometimes...people cannot be reached by preaching the word because they are so ashamed of themselves they can't even handle criticism or words that would help them improve. I prayed extensively over the Covid-19 issue and how the church handled it. I personally did not feel that Pres Nelson or our leaders did something against God. This is because; everyone who wanted to stay home from church was given the manual and was able to do so. Everyone who didn't want their children to attend BYU or go on a mission was not forced into it. Everyone has the Holy Spirit, so no one can blame Pres. Nelson if the Holy Spirit told you to stay home; the church gave us all the resources we needed to do so. Had the church told us we must get vaccinated so as to attend church; that would be different.

We operate in a church that has to do what David did to King Saul.... the government is King Saul and is ready to "kill" anyone who opposes it. We learned this when we utilized freedom of speech against prop 8 and the members were persecuted. I think God will ask certain individuals to suffer with Him; but I don't think it is a tenant of our faith to purposely volunteer to suffer if it isn't effective (I know the scripture about having tribulation in the world; that doesn't mean we go looking for it). Jesus actually does want to protect us. This means, we don't always fight the enemy. Sometimes, we escape the enemy. And God doesn't always promise to annihilate the enemy. Sometimes all God does is provide a way for escape. This allows everyone a free will and opportunity to choose whether or not they will listen to the Holy Spirit; the receiving of divine revelation from which is still a tenant of our religion.

I think Pres. Nelson played his cards well.

Now, does that mean the Holy Spirit does not witness of corruption in the church? I would assume there is corruption, was it not such that murdered Joseph Smith? But does this mean the endowment is no longer true? I still feel the Holy Spirit witness to me that it is true. So; moving forward as a member, it requires us to stand with the Holy Spirit...

And while I feel the Holy Spirit witness to me of corruption in the church...and people in leadership and members who are struggling under the bondage of sin that is common to man; the Holy Spirit has not testified to me to spend my time testifying of other people's sins; especially when I still have my own to work on. God has a way of revealing the sins of the wicked when the time is right. Until then, it's not my responsibility to speak badly about someone because of their sins; as if I had some authority to do that. Maybe if someone is engaged in criminal activity, law enforcement has a responsibility to do it. If people want to join together and do an investigation in the place of law enforcement as citizens; that's a good idea.... and when proper evidence of criminal activity is found, then let's have a discussion on it.
Do you think God gave us the jab? Do you think God authorized Nelson to say that this came from God?

What they did was wrong. And that’s putting it lightly.
Jesus did say to agree with thine enemy in the way so you don't go to prison (I think you can add, so you don't face other types of persecution that does not promote the work of God). If you are going to face persecution, it needs to be to further God's will. Well, God gave us all free will. And most people, unfortunately; believe vaccines are godsends. Most of the public actually believe that. So when the average person, with their free will, chooses what they believe; God cannot give them truth unless they are willing to listen to the Holy Spirit and be converted. And if people won't do that; God respects that. Not only does He respect that; but He will withhold the truth from them for their sake. Because once they hear the truth at a time they are not ready to accept it; they become accountable for having heard it. This is very complicated situation. Like I said, when I prayed it over; I felt like this was a card game where you have to play the game. It's not so simple when you factor in free will and the salvation of souls, which is what God wants for us all. You can't just get up at a podium, and say something that goes against modern accepted health practices. Not when people's innocence, ignorance, and free will have lead them to believe something is safe (even if truthfully it is not). Because if you do, you are usurping their belief system and they may not be ready, nor have given permission, nor would they be helped; by that type of guidance. I don't think the majority of people's hearts were tilled enough to hear the truth about vaccines. I think that would have increased fear.

As it is, most people took the vaccine out of innocence. Which makes it easier for them to repent if they choose; because they can say to themselves "I didn't know any better". You can argue the prophet's job is to warn the people; but in this case; he did not. In this case; he let people choose. And this suits the interests of the church. Because we don't need to ruffle government feathers right now. We did that with prop 8 and it did no good.

A way of escape was provided for those who know better than to get the vaccine. And for those that had the knowledge; they are held to a higher standard than the average person who didn't know better. There is a spiritual ramification for knowingly choosing to take a vaccine that changes us to no longer be made in God's image. To produce proteins that are not given to us from Heavenly Father, but are given to us from man. Most people do not know this; most people took the vaccine in innocence. And because they didn't know better, they will be worthy of being redeemed from this mistake because of grace. Yes, I think he did the right thing, given the knowledge people are at concerning vaccines at the time. Hopefully with this round of mass vaccination the entire public can learn from the mistake and we can consciously choose to change how much we trust vaccines. Not because the prophet told us; but because everyone with their free will chose what they wanted and has the opportunity to learn for themselves what is right.

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