Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Luke
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 4:48 pm
Luke wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 4:43 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 3:54 pm hahaha.. at one point Joseph and his family condemned polygamy with the strongest language. This has to be the elephant in the room when it comes to deciphering what happened at Carthage. If they did what the church says they did, they were damned liars of the highest order. Ain't no beatin' around the bush on that one.
Lol this has literally been rehashed thousands of times. We don’t care that they lied to Babylon to save their skin. Whether it was the best course for them to pursue or not is not for me to say.
Justify this all you like. This doesn't even come close to things like Nephi and Laban, or things even Abraham did. When you take into totality the things Joseph and Hyrum said on record while alive, and you still believe the polygamy (and polyamory) narrative, you believe they were the most extreme hypocrites. It amazes me the abominations and sins a person can justify through twisting history and the scriptures.
All your opinion. To me it’s exactly like what Nephi and Abraham did. There’s also no need to twist the Scriptures when God is directly quoted saying that He gave David his wives. Hard to argue with such plainness.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Luke wrote: February 4th, 2023, 1:51 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 4:48 pm
Luke wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 4:43 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 3:54 pm hahaha.. at one point Joseph and his family condemned polygamy with the strongest language. This has to be the elephant in the room when it comes to deciphering what happened at Carthage. If they did what the church says they did, they were damned liars of the highest order. Ain't no beatin' around the bush on that one.
Lol this has literally been rehashed thousands of times. We don’t care that they lied to Babylon to save their skin. Whether it was the best course for them to pursue or not is not for me to say.
Justify this all you like. This doesn't even come close to things like Nephi and Laban, or things even Abraham did. When you take into totality the things Joseph and Hyrum said on record while alive, and you still believe the polygamy (and polyamory) narrative, you believe they were the most extreme hypocrites. It amazes me the abominations and sins a person can justify through twisting history and the scriptures.
All your opinion. To me it’s exactly like what Nephi and Abraham did. There’s also no need to twist the Scriptures when God is directly quoted saying that He gave David his wives. Hard to argue with such plainness.
Thanks for sharing your opinion as well.

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BuriedTartaria
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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I really respect and like Mark, and I do that even if his search for truth leads him to different conclusions than mine. It's neat to see the idea of unbelief (faith in things that aren't true, leads to dwindling in unbelief, as the Book of Mormon describes it) being explored in unrelated pockets of non-traditional Mormon groups. To me, that's sincere Book of Mormon believers, unrelated by any specific group, coming together and waking up to a precious truth taught in the Book of Mormon on their own.

Bronco73idi
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Robin Hood wrote: January 20th, 2023, 4:57 pm This was poor... very poor.
I was, quite frankly, astounded at how bad it was.
Basically it boiled down to a consultation with some forensic detective who, although he didn't dismiss Griffin's inside job theory altogether, suggested a much more likely and less sensational alternative.
And that was it. The rest was all acting.
If the truth doesn’t fit their emotional opinion then it is not seen. They are spiritually blind and deaf, seeds thrown into the cracks.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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This might be a good place to include this list of words. I took three public talks/speeches, one each for Joseph, Hyrum and Emma, and pulled out a few keywords. Each of them focused their words on the condemnation of polygamy. Seems like they were pretty on board w/ the whole idea... :?

Lie
Deceive
Debauch
Utter contempt
Curse
Unworthy
Unprincipled wretch
Damned
Liars & base imposters
Denounce
Flying fiery serpents
Damned for evil practices
Adulterers, liars, hypocrites
Iniquity
False doctrine
Foolish man
Damned fool
Despise such a man
Disgrace
Corruption of wickedness
Poisonous debauchers
Ungodly wretches
Miserable dupes
Rebuke
Curse the man
Cankered worms
Rotten flesh
Spiritual wickedness
There is a wolf in the path
Seducer
Slanderer
Defamer

1. Letter from Joseph to Emma and the Relief Society, April 1842
2. Hyrum, general membership address, April 1844
4. Emma, A Voice of Innocence, March 16, 1844

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Justin's discussion about his interview with Radio Free Mormon.

I think this point is very valid. Mormons and Exmormons need Polygamy to be true. For members, if Joseph wasn't a polygamist, the church is screwed. For Ex-mos, if Joseph wasn't a polygamist, he was a far better man than they've ever given him credit and they lose one of their greatest daggers of condemnation. The narrative that the church went into apostasy is, IMO, the correct answer.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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This is quite the interesting quote.
"Emma is naturally a very smart woman; she is subtle and ingenious, and she has made all her children believe that myself, Brother Kimball, and the other members of the Twelve laid the plot which terminated in the death of the Prophet. This charge is especially laid to myself. “-Brigham Young

(6-8 Oct 1866, 36th Semi-Annual Conference, Bowery, G. S. L. City. [Deseret News Weekly 15:364, 10/10/66, p 4-5 and 15:372, 10/17/66, p 4-5; MS 28:764, 774]
The “inside job” theory goes waaaay back. Brigham thought it important enough to bring it up decades later.

simpleton
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: March 15th, 2023, 10:33 am Justin's discussion about his interview with Radio Free Mormon.

I think this point is very valid. Mormons and Exmormons need Polygamy to be true. For members, if Joseph wasn't a polygamist, the church is screwed. For Ex-mos, if Joseph wasn't a polygamist, he was a far better man than they've ever given him credit and they lose one of their greatest daggers of condemnation. The narrative that the church went into apostasy is, IMO, the correct answer.
I agree, but maybe not for the reason you think, which are? If I may ask....

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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simpleton wrote: March 26th, 2023, 7:18 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: March 15th, 2023, 10:33 am Justin's discussion about his interview with Radio Free Mormon.

I think this point is very valid. Mormons and Exmormons need Polygamy to be true. For members, if Joseph wasn't a polygamist, the church is screwed. For Ex-mos, if Joseph wasn't a polygamist, he was a far better man than they've ever given him credit and they lose one of their greatest daggers of condemnation. The narrative that the church went into apostasy is, IMO, the correct answer.
I agree, but maybe not for the reason you think, which are? If I may ask....
I don't understand your question.

simpleton
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: March 26th, 2023, 7:28 pm
simpleton wrote: March 26th, 2023, 7:18 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: March 15th, 2023, 10:33 am Justin's discussion about his interview with Radio Free Mormon.

I think this point is very valid. Mormons and Exmormons need Polygamy to be true. For members, if Joseph wasn't a polygamist, the church is screwed. For Ex-mos, if Joseph wasn't a polygamist, he was a far better man than they've ever given him credit and they lose one of their greatest daggers of condemnation. The narrative that the church went into apostasy is, IMO, the correct answer.
I agree, but maybe not for the reason you think, which are? If I may ask....
I don't understand your question.
"Church went into apostasy" you believe "is the correct narrative". What is/are the/those reason or reasons that you believe?

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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simpleton wrote: March 26th, 2023, 7:37 pm "Church went into apostasy" you believe "is the correct narrative". What is/are the/those reason or reasons that you believe?
Well, the obvious one per the thread topic, is the idea that some of the acting apostles may have murdered three of the Smith boys. (Joseph, Hyrum, Samuel) Having murderers (or conspirators to murder) run your church would qualify as "apostasy."

simpleton
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: March 26th, 2023, 7:39 pm
simpleton wrote: March 26th, 2023, 7:37 pm "Church went into apostasy" you believe "is the correct narrative". What is/are the/those reason or reasons that you believe?
Well, the obvious one per the thread topic, is the idea that some of the acting apostles may have murdered three of the Smith boys. (Joseph, Hyrum, Samuel) Having murderers (or conspirators to murder) run your church would qualify as "apostasy."
Yes that would. Kind of like the great apostasy of the early Christian church. But then I think, that based upon my studies throughout my life it is just another BS story. But I know, we could argue till doomsday and it wouldn't make any difference as to how each other thinks.

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

simpleton wrote: March 26th, 2023, 7:46 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: March 26th, 2023, 7:39 pm
simpleton wrote: March 26th, 2023, 7:37 pm "Church went into apostasy" you believe "is the correct narrative". What is/are the/those reason or reasons that you believe?
Well, the obvious one per the thread topic, is the idea that some of the acting apostles may have murdered three of the Smith boys. (Joseph, Hyrum, Samuel) Having murderers (or conspirators to murder) run your church would qualify as "apostasy."
Yes that would. Kind of like the great apostasy of the early Christian church. But then I think, that based upon my studies throughout my life it is just another BS story. But I know, we could argue till doomsday and it wouldn't make any difference as to how each other thinks.
The only “BS” aspect to this is that the narrative told by Willard Richards and John Taylor are inaccurate. That is factual. We also know that, according to the church, Joseph and Hyrum were some of the greatest hypocrites to exist in the religious world. But only if you believe the church.

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Seed Starter
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: March 26th, 2023, 7:49 pm
simpleton wrote: March 26th, 2023, 7:46 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: March 26th, 2023, 7:39 pm
Well, the obvious one per the thread topic, is the idea that some of the acting apostles may have murdered three of the Smith boys. (Joseph, Hyrum, Samuel) Having murderers (or conspirators to murder) run your church would qualify as "apostasy."
Yes that would. Kind of like the great apostasy of the early Christian church. But then I think, that based upon my studies throughout my life it is just another BS story. But I know, we could argue till doomsday and it wouldn't make any difference as to how each other thinks.
The only “BS” aspect to this is that the narrative told by Willard Richards and John Taylor are inaccurate. That is factual. We also know that, according to the church, Joseph and Hyrum were some of the greatest hypocrites to exist in the religious world. But only if you believe the church.
What I find interesting is John Taylor never saw an action movie where the bad guy flies back 10 feet when shot but included it in his story anyway. That pocket watch stopping a ball is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. It's creative physics time :lol: At the very least known liars shouldn't be trusted on testimony alone. What else did he lie about if he'll lie about that experience?

Let me be clear. A pocket watch doesn't look that nice after being shot with something as small as an air rifle. It would be a mess and injury would still take place. God set up the laws of physics. I think he works within those laws to work miracles.

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