Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

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logonbump
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by logonbump »

JK4Woods wrote: March 31st, 2021, 11:39 am
Luke wrote: March 31st, 2021, 11:31 am
Robin Hood wrote: March 31st, 2021, 11:23 am
Luke wrote: March 31st, 2021, 11:16 am

I’m guessing this is over the Outer Darkness thing

Brigham said that those who went to Outer Darkness would be “thrown back into the native element and reworked over, so as to be prepared to enjoy some sort of kingdom” (paraphrase)

In essence, those consigned to Outer Darkness would just be sent back to square 1

I don’t believe God ceases to be a God of forgiveness
He did say that, but it isn't what you appear to think. The elements of spirit will be broken down and become unilluminated matter. The intelligence will be recycled, but all traces of the person who was cast into outer darkness as a SoP will be gone.
Yes I agree. I probably should have explained myself better
What..?!? We get recycled..?!? Sentient beings, or those who refuse to climb?
I read something like that in the NDE book, There is No Death. Author in was shown in the other side that the wickedest get relegated to a lower kingdom; their "intelligence" gets distributed into the animal life of creations.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

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Original_Intent wrote: January 11th, 2023, 6:19 pm
Robin Hood wrote: January 11th, 2023, 2:09 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: January 11th, 2023, 1:39 pm
Robin Hood wrote: January 11th, 2023, 1:17 pm I think many people get muddled up regarding spirit and intelligence. A spirit is individual, can communicate, can make decisions, and is self aware. Whether that spirit is a human or a hamster.
None of this describes an intelligence in it's pure form. Intelligence is the raw material from which a spirit is created.
This is why a spirit can be dissolved back to it's elemental intelligence and retain nothing of it's previous spiritual/physical identity.
This makes it sound like intelligence is a soup ingredient. So, you don't interpret the Abrahamic pool of intelligences as actual separate individuals? Could you and I, back when we were only intelligences, communicate with each other?

It can't be created nor destroyed, but you are of the opinion that it can be reformed, correct? My understanding was always that the intelligence was the uniqueness of the individual, the one thing that was always you.

Considering BY's inspirational track record, I can't let his thoughts deviate me from what the scriptures say. Is it fair to say that external interpretations influence your scriptural understanding?

Of course, we are already possibly putting too much stock into the Book of Abraham, considering Joseph never canonized it and the Lord commanded that nothing of the New Translation go forth until it was all complete.
I arrived at my view by logic.
I didn't get it from anywhere else.
Well, even with logic, your premises all have to be correct and your conclusion must also be correct - which I am fairly certain yours aren't. Intelligence is not an ingredient to form spirits from - intelligence is the very essence of identity.
I don't think you are correct.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by Robin Hood »

JK4Woods wrote: January 11th, 2023, 8:39 pm
Robin Hood wrote: March 31st, 2021, 11:23 am
Luke wrote: March 31st, 2021, 11:16 am
Robin Hood wrote: March 31st, 2021, 11:08 am

You're half right.
I’m guessing this is over the Outer Darkness thing

Brigham said that those who went to Outer Darkness would be “thrown back into the native element and reworked over, so as to be prepared to enjoy some sort of kingdom” (paraphrase)

In essence, those consigned to Outer Darkness would just be sent back to square 1

I don’t believe God ceases to be a God of forgiveness
He did say that, but it isn't what you appear to think. The elements of spirit will be broken down and become unilluminated matter. The intelligence will be recycled, but all traces of the person who was cast into outer darkness as a SoP will be gone.

Is the dust of the moon, the remains of those who were sent back to start again on square one..??
Either that, or your body or mine perhaps.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by Shawn Henry »

Robin Hood wrote: January 12th, 2023, 1:04 am Either that, or your body or mine perhaps.
Except that means those intelligences came to end and the verse that says they have no end or beginning is made void.

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ransomme
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

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Shawn Henry wrote: January 11th, 2023, 1:39 pm
Robin Hood wrote: January 11th, 2023, 1:17 pm I think many people get muddled up regarding spirit and intelligence. A spirit is individual, can communicate, can make decisions, and is self aware. Whether that spirit is a human or a hamster.
None of this describes an intelligence in it's pure form. Intelligence is the raw material from which a spirit is created.
This is why a spirit can be dissolved back to it's elemental intelligence and retain nothing of it's previous spiritual/physical identity.
This makes it sound like intelligence is a soup ingredient. So, you don't interpret the Abrahamic pool of intelligences as actual separate individuals? Could you and I, back when we were only intelligences, communicate with each other?

It can't be created nor destroyed, but you are of the opinion that it can be reformed, correct? My understanding was always that the intelligence was the uniqueness of the individual, the one thing that was always you.

Considering BY's inspirational track record, I can't let his thoughts deviate me from what the scriptures say. Is it fair to say that external interpretations influence your scriptural understanding?

Of course, we are already possibly putting too much stock into the Book of Abraham, considering Joseph never canonized it and the Lord commanded that nothing of the New Translation go forth until it was all complete.
To be fair Joseph intended to publish the book of Abraham. He has translated everything, and was in the process of preparing what he translated for publication. At the time of his murder he had only prepared 2/3rd's of his translation for publication. At that 2/3 is all we ever got. Where is the other 1/3?

In addition to the book of Abraham, Joseph Smith had also translated the book of Joseph, but none of that has ever seen the light of day.

Concerning intelligences, perhaps an intelligence is to a spirit, what a spirit is to a body. On this nothing is definitive, we just have not been given enough light on this subject.

Personally I would bet that an intelligence = a consciousness.

I would also say that from people's NDEs and experiences in altered states of consciousness that non physical communication is fully possible.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by Robin Hood »

Shawn Henry wrote: January 12th, 2023, 2:35 am
Robin Hood wrote: January 12th, 2023, 1:04 am Either that, or your body or mine perhaps.
Except that means those intelligences came to end and the verse that says they have no end or beginning is made void.
No it doesn't those intelligences came to an end at all. Have you not followed what I've been saying?

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by Shawn Henry »

ransomme wrote: January 12th, 2023, 6:14 am
Shawn Henry wrote: January 11th, 2023, 1:39 pm
Robin Hood wrote: January 11th, 2023, 1:17 pm I think many people get muddled up regarding spirit and intelligence. A spirit is individual, can communicate, can make decisions, and is self aware. Whether that spirit is a human or a hamster.
None of this describes an intelligence in it's pure form. Intelligence is the raw material from which a spirit is created.
This is why a spirit can be dissolved back to it's elemental intelligence and retain nothing of it's previous spiritual/physical identity.
This makes it sound like intelligence is a soup ingredient. So, you don't interpret the Abrahamic pool of intelligences as actual separate individuals? Could you and I, back when we were only intelligences, communicate with each other?

It can't be created nor destroyed, but you are of the opinion that it can be reformed, correct? My understanding was always that the intelligence was the uniqueness of the individual, the one thing that was always you.

Considering BY's inspirational track record, I can't let his thoughts deviate me from what the scriptures say. Is it fair to say that external interpretations influence your scriptural understanding?

Of course, we are already possibly putting too much stock into the Book of Abraham, considering Joseph never canonized it and the Lord commanded that nothing of the New Translation go forth until it was all complete.
To be fair Joseph intended to publish the book of Abraham. He has translated everything, and was in the process of preparing what he translated for publication. At the time of his murder he had only prepared 2/3rd's of his translation for publication. At that 2/3 is all we ever got. Where is the other 1/3?

In addition to the book of Abraham, Joseph Smith had also translated the book of Joseph, but none of that has ever seen the light of day.

Concerning intelligences, perhaps an intelligence is to a spirit, what a spirit is to a body. On this nothing is definitive, we just have not been given enough light on this subject.

Personally I would bet that an intelligence = a consciousness.

I would also say that from people's NDEs and experiences in altered states of consciousness that non physical communication is fully possible.
Yeah, that's my bet too, it's our conscious or our true self.

I agree the New Translation was all supposed to be completed and published, but still most don't know, even those here, that the Lord said to hold off until it was all complete and that it had to go forth in one volume with the BoM. It can't be considered true canon, but it is definitely a step above apocrypha, in my opinion.

I think we make the mistake of banking on it as scripture, and it may all be, but at the same time, the Lord easily could have given Joseph the inspiration to put some things in there simply to satiate our itching ears. We usually are given what we deserve and when we received that work, we were in apostacy. So, do the works that come forth always match the state of the saints? I would think so. If the saints would not have canonized it like the Lord instructed, how many members would not have left the church over BoA issues?

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by Shawn Henry »

Robin Hood wrote: January 12th, 2023, 8:24 am
No it doesn't those intelligences came to an end at all. Have you not followed what I've been saying?
It sounds like you're saying they can't be destroyed, but they can mostly be destroyed.

It may be possible to recycle an intelligence, but it is not possible to strip an intelligence of intelligence. Once that intelligence has increased in intelligence, it is permanent.

It would be like stripping a college professor of his degree and attempting to then put him in 1st grade. He would just test out of everything within the week.

You might be able to strip memory from intelligence, I doubt it, but you can't strip intelligence because that would be destroying.

Also, stripping someone of what they are is rape to a factor of a million. God would crush our agency and cease to be God.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by Silver Pie »

logonbump wrote: January 11th, 2023, 9:54 pm I read something like that in the NDE book, There is No Death. Author in was shown in the other side that the wickedest get relegated to a lower kingdom; their "intelligence" gets distributed into the animal life of creations.
Hm 🤔 So it may be true that my daughter's dog, which she gave me, might actually be my ex? (Dog was born a few years after he died.)

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Niemand
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by Niemand »

Silver Pie wrote: January 12th, 2023, 6:41 pm
logonbump wrote: January 11th, 2023, 9:54 pm I read something like that in the NDE book, There is No Death. Author in was shown in the other side that the wickedest get relegated to a lower kingdom; their "intelligence" gets distributed into the animal life of creations.
Hm 🤔 So it may be true that my daughter's dog, which she gave me, might actually be my ex? (Dog was born a few years after he died.)
Or the slugs in your garden. :D

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Thinker
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

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Silver Pie wrote: January 12th, 2023, 6:41 pm
logonbump wrote: January 11th, 2023, 9:54 pm I read something like that in the NDE book, There is No Death. Author in was shown in the other side that the wickedest get relegated to a lower kingdom; their "intelligence" gets distributed into the animal life of creations.
Hm 🤔 So it may be true that my daughter's dog, which she gave me, might actually be my ex? (Dog was born a few years after he died.)
:) I doubt it. Dogs are too angelic (most are anyway).

I believe in reincarnation, though it’s probably best to focus on this life. So I haven’t explored it tons, but my guess is that we are resurrected into bodies that fit the cumulative effect of past lives - karma/cause-&-effect, ignor-ance & lessons still needing to be learned. I imagine for most, the reincarnation is into another human, but there may be exceptions if someone was especially cruel to animals & needed to learn empathy. Then after that lesson, they’d continue as a human probably. And it makes sense to me that to become gods - all-knowing - we have experienced multiple types of life, human being more advanced intelligence. But these are just guesses.

What do you think?

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Silver Pie
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by Silver Pie »

Thinker wrote: January 17th, 2023, 11:43 am And it makes sense to me that to become gods - all-knowing - we have experienced multiple types of life, human being more advanced intelligence. But these are just guesses.

What do you think?
I never thought of it that way. It makes sense.

Sometimes I've wondered if we've come up through the ranks of amoeba, then this animal or that animal, finally reaching the pinnacle (whatever that is; I don't think being a mortal human is the highest. It's just the highest we experience here. We think).

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harakim
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

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RoseofSharon wrote: March 31st, 2021, 12:35 pm Now that was just BY's opinion and he admitted that. I have read the JD and so I know. He also said that if he didn't write something down, sign it and send it out to every stake and ward, it wasn't officially binding on the church as doctrine. Over the pulpit at conference didn't necessarily count in this manner.

It is an interesting idea though. And it goes along with how God doesn't waste anything. That's in nature. In nature everything keeps coming back in a recycled fashion all clean and fresh, no energy is lost, everything is always still here some how even if in another form. Think of the water cycle.

And one could actually call damned spirits "failed' spirits who are being wasted in outer darkness. BY used the potter analogy on this one. The potter just "destroys" a failed vessle and then remakes it into a new one. And Satan is called "the destroyer".

I don't think this is hopeful, merciful or otherwise nice. The intelligence has failed, and it is destroyed which sounds absolutely terrible beyond my ability to imagine. This is not a means of salvation as much as a means of turning something useless into something useful.
The Spirit would be destroyed in this case. Intelligences can't be destroyed. I now see this debate has been ongoing. I always imagined the intelligence as the consciousness, the thing that is aware of what's going on in some fashion. That's the only thing that I can imagine being eternal.
RoseOfSharon wrote: She didn't listen to me until it was too late. And you don't want to know what happened to her. Not if you want to sleep tonight, that is.
You'd be surprised. And I'm not sleeping anyway. Let me know.

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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by Thinker »

Silver Pie wrote: January 17th, 2023, 4:52 pm
Thinker wrote: January 17th, 2023, 11:43 am And it makes sense to me that to become gods - all-knowing - we have experienced multiple types of life, human being more advanced intelligence. But these are just guesses.

What do you think?
I never thought of it that way. It makes sense.

Sometimes I've wondered if we've come up through the ranks of amoeba, then this animal or that animal, finally reaching the pinnacle (whatever that is; I don't think being a mortal human is the highest. It's just the highest we experience here. We think).
I agree. It makes me wonder what is higher than human experience? Angels? Energy that helps all the many processes of Intelligent Design - from helping bodies to planets do their thing?

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Silver Pie
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by Silver Pie »

Thinker wrote: January 21st, 2023, 1:37 pm Sometimes I've wondered if we've come up through the ranks of amoeba, then this animal or that animal, finally reaching the pinnacle (whatever that is; I don't think being a mortal human is the highest. It's just the highest we experience here. We think).
I agree. It makes me wonder what is higher than human experience? Angels? Energy that helps all the many processes of Intelligent Design - from helping bodies to planets do their thing?
[/quote]

Exactly. I believe there is so much more to our journeys than we ever imagined (or can imagine).

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harakim
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

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Silver Pie wrote: January 25th, 2023, 2:03 pm
Thinker wrote: January 21st, 2023, 1:37 pm Sometimes I've wondered if we've come up through the ranks of amoeba, then this animal or that animal, finally reaching the pinnacle (whatever that is; I don't think being a mortal human is the highest. It's just the highest we experience here. We think).
I agree. It makes me wonder what is higher than human experience? Angels? Energy that helps all the many processes of Intelligent Design - from helping bodies to planets do their thing?
Exactly. I believe there is so much more to our journeys than we ever imagined (or can imagine).
[/quote]

It seems like it would just increase by degree until you had complete power to create and destroy and/or complete knowledge. That would be a different experience.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by Silver Pie »

Man, I really screwed up that quote. I guess I was doing it on my phone. Anyway, this looks better.

harakim wrote: February 1st, 2023, 9:10 pm
Silver Pie wrote: January 25th, 2023, 2:03 pm
Thinker wrote: January 21st, 2023, 1:37 pm
Sometimes I've wondered if we've come up through the ranks of amoeba, then this animal or that animal, finally reaching the pinnacle (whatever that is; I don't think being a mortal human is the highest. It's just the highest we experience here. We think).
I agree. It makes me wonder what is higher than human experience? Angels? Energy that helps all the many processes of Intelligent Design - from helping bodies to planets do their thing?
Exactly. I believe there is so much more to our journeys than we ever imagined (or can imagine).
It seems like it would just increase by degree until you had complete power to create and destroy and/or complete knowledge. That would be a different experience.
That makes a lot of sense, harakim.

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