Book of Enoch Related

[MikeMaillet]

I've been reading the Book of Enoch with great interest and I'm interested in your opinions regarding the Watchers. The book describes the fallen Angels as Watchers and it becomes relatively clear that the Watchers were fairly high in the hierarchy of Heaven. The interesting part is that in chapter 20, the current Watchers are described as thus:

From 1883 translation

CHAP. XX.

1. These are the names of the angels who watch.

2. Uriel, one of the holy angels, who presides over 1 clamour and terror.

3. Raphael, one of the holy angels, who presides over the spirits of men.

4. Raguel, one of the holy angels, who inflicts punishment on the world and the luminaries.

5. Michael, one of the holy angels, who, presiding over human virtue, commands the nations.

6. Sarakiel, one of the holy angels, who presides over the spirits of the children of men that transgress.

7. Gabriel, one of the holy angels, who presides over Ikisat, 1 over paradise, and over the cherubim.

When we think of the defection and the war in Heaven we normally associate that with Lucifer and many who followed after him but chapter 20 suggests that the rebellion against God involved some very high ranking Angels who were close to God. It seems Watchers is synonymous with Arch Angels and in the Ascension of Isaiah, only the Arch Angels and above were able to withstand the glory of the Father.

I'm left wondering if the war in heaven was the result of a rejection of the Father's choosing whom would be our Saviour or if it was the Father able to see through a grand conspiracy wherein a group of conspiring, powerful Angels covenanted with each other to usurp God and to rise before their time? I used to think the former but now when I see what is happening in the world and how it is run, I'm not so sure.

Mike Maillet
Ingleside, Ontario

Link to the Book of Enoch: https://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/bep/bep02.htm

[Niemand]

One of the traditions is that Satan was the highest ranking angel (possibly ahead of Michael), but that the power went to his head. It is said that he led the Heavenly Choir and that he still retains an interest in music (hence many musicians from Paganini to more recent ones are said to have been connected with him).

The impression I get of angels is that they are individuals who have a degree of free will, so can make some of their own decisions and statements. They can also shapeshift.

[mes5464]

Michael is supposed to be the spirit of Adam and Gabriel the spirit of Noah. Are they fallen, or are then sent here with a mission? There are also many scriptures that refer to seven angels blowing trumpets to mark the opening of a seal or the pouring out of a judgement. Might these be those same seven angels?

[Niemand]

Michael is supposed to be the spirit of Adam and Gabriel the spirit of Noah. Are they fallen, or are then sent here with a mission? There are also many scriptures that refer to seven angels blowing trumpets to mark the opening of a seal or the pouring out of a judgement. Might these be those same seven angels?

Noah had a bit of trouble after he came out of the Ark.

[mes5464]

Michael is supposed to be the spirit of Adam and Gabriel the spirit of Noah. Are they fallen, or are then sent here with a mission? There are also many scriptures that refer to seven angels blowing trumpets to mark the opening of a seal or the pouring out of a judgement. Might these be those same seven angels?

Noah had a bit of trouble after he came out of the Ark.

He did still get the mission to be the messenger for the birth of Jesus to Mary, so it seems he was still okay.

[Niemand]

Michael is supposed to be the spirit of Adam and Gabriel the spirit of Noah. Are they fallen, or are then sent here with a mission? There are also many scriptures that refer to seven angels blowing trumpets to mark the opening of a seal or the pouring out of a judgement. Might these be those same seven angels?

Noah had a bit of trouble after he came out of the Ark.

He did still get the mission to be the messenger for the birth of Jesus to Mary, so it seems he was still okay.

According to some interpretations.

According to others, Noah got drunk and had the wrong type of sex after settling down again.

[BroJones]

I think Noah and Enoch and Adam are OK - and all will come to the grand meeting to be held fairly soon in Adam-ondi-Ahman, about 26 miles from where I currently live...

[Pazooka]

I've been reading the Book of Enoch with great interest and I'm interested in your opinions regarding the Watchers. The book describes the fallen Angels as Watchers and it becomes relatively clear that the Watchers were fairly high in the hierarchy of Heaven. The interesting part is that in chapter 20, the current Watchers are described as thus:

From 1883 translation

CHAP. XX.

1. These are the names of the angels who watch.

2. Uriel, one of the holy angels, who presides over 1 clamour and terror.

3. Raphael, one of the holy angels, who presides over the spirits of men.

4. Raguel, one of the holy angels, who inflicts punishment on the world and the luminaries.

5. Michael, one of the holy angels, who, presiding over human virtue, commands the nations.

6. Sarakiel, one of the holy angels, who presides over the spirits of the children of men that transgress.

7. Gabriel, one of the holy angels, who presides over Ikisat, 1 over paradise, and over the cherubim.

When we think of the defection and the war in Heaven we normally associate that with Lucifer and many who followed after him but chapter 20 suggests that the rebellion against God involved some very high ranking Angels who were close to God. It seems Watchers is synonymous with Arch Angels and in the Ascension of Isaiah, only the Arch Angels and above were able to withstand the glory of the Father.

I'm left wondering if the war in heaven was the result of a rejection of the Father's choosing whom would be our Saviour or if it was the Father able to see through a grand conspiracy wherein a group of conspiring, powerful Angels covenanted with each other to usurp God and to rise before their time? I used to think the former but now when I see what is happening in the world and how it is run, I'm not so sure.

Mike Maillet
Ingleside, Ontario

Link to the Book of Enoch: https://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/bep/bep02.htm

Chapter 20 is actually naming the holy angels, called Watchers not because that refers to the fallen but because Watchers are angels who were appointed to watch over mankind. The previous chapter (19) discussed the fallen watchers who cohabited with women and caused men to err.

The righteous Watchers of chapter 20 are seven in number, four of whom are associated with the four horns of the altar, or the four seats of power that preside over the earth plane.

[MikeMaillet]

Chapter 20 suggests that the Watchers that fell were Arch Angels. These angels were close to God and could withstand His glory. I don't think I'll ever understand what motivated these beings to act in open rebellion against a Father they knew better than most. It wasn't stupidity that cast them to hell, it was their knowledge.

Mike

[Niemand]

Chapter 20 suggests that the Watchers that fell were Arch Angels. These angels were close to God and could withstand His glory. I don't think I'll ever understand what motivated these beings to act in open rebellion against a Father they knew better than most. It wasn't stupidity that cast them to hell, it was their knowledge.

Mike

I think they have a degree of free will, and like humans, not all of them were up to the job.

The irony is that they were already some of the most powerful beings in the universe before they fluffed it up.

[MikeMaillet]

Chapter 20 suggests that the Watchers that fell were Arch Angels. These angels were close to God and could withstand His glory. I don't think I'll ever understand what motivated these beings to act in open rebellion against a Father they knew better than most. It wasn't stupidity that cast them to hell, it was their knowledge.

Mike

I think they have a degree of free will, and like humans, not all of them were up to the job.

The irony is that they were already some of the most powerful beings in the universe before they fluffed it up.

Yes, that's the part I don't understand. I guess we'll find out when we get there.

Mike

[Niemand]

Chapter 20 suggests that the Watchers that fell were Arch Angels. These angels were close to God and could withstand His glory. I don't think I'll ever understand what motivated these beings to act in open rebellion against a Father they knew better than most. It wasn't stupidity that cast them to hell, it was their knowledge.

Mike

I think they have a degree of free will, and like humans, not all of them were up to the job.

The irony is that they were already some of the most powerful beings in the universe before they fluffed it up.

Yes, that's the part I don't understand. I guess we'll find out when we get there.

Mike

Humans do similar things. Some people get wonderful opportunities and sabotage them, and others have horrible lives but become good people. Not always clear why.

[Redpilled Mormon]

I see some of you guys referring to 7 angels, but I counted twice in the excerpt Mike showed in the first post and I'm only coming up with 6 angels (although it's 7 verses). Forgive me, but I have not red the original, maybe another angel name didn't make the cut for the excerpt shown? Just curious.

How trustworthy is the Book of Enoch in provenance, btw?

[Niemand]

How trustworthy is the Book of Enoch in provenance, btw?

There is more than one version of it, and I think Joseph Smith's dictum on the Apocrypha works here, i.e. that it is of value but with interpolations.

Enoch is quoted in the Bible canon, but yes, there are some questions about it. Some verses are found in the Ethiopian church but not in Greek or Hebrew.

[Lynn]

Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, and Uriel are the 4 appointed to the Sword (the NAME/WORD). It was Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael who were sent to Abraham, then to Lot.

Michael & Gabriel, are the two angels assigned to lead or guard Israel.

[Pazooka]

Chapter 20 suggests that the Watchers that fell were Arch Angels. These angels were close to God and could withstand His glory. I don't think I'll ever understand what motivated these beings to act in open rebellion against a Father they knew better than most. It wasn't stupidity that cast them to hell, it was their knowledge.

Mike

Chapter 20 doesn’t say that the holy angels listed in 20 fell. The ones who broke the rules and cohabited with women are listed in chapter 7. Chapter 19 only references the chapter 7 angels and then moves on to the holy arch angels.

[Pazooka]

I see some of you guys referring to 7 angels, but I counted twice in the excerpt Mike showed in the first post and I'm only coming up with 6 angels (although it's 7 verses). Forgive me, but I have not red the original, maybe another angel name didn't make the cut for the excerpt shown? Just curious.

How trustworthy is the Book of Enoch in provenance, btw?

Sorry - I guess Phanuel is missing in that chapter. I thought he was the 7th.

Jesus quotes from the Book of Enoch and so do many Biblical authors. It was canonical in early Christianity.

[MikeMaillet]

I see some of you guys referring to 7 angels, but I counted twice in the excerpt Mike showed in the first post and I'm only coming up with 6 angels (although it's 7 verses). Forgive me, but I have not red the original, maybe another angel name didn't make the cut for the excerpt shown? Just curious.

How trustworthy is the Book of Enoch in provenance, btw?

You can read more about the origins of the book... here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch

I'm not a scholar of antiquity or ancient books and I'm not sure it would help if I was. I study the book prayerfully and look for any inconsistencies with other scriptures when I study non-canonical works. I don't have time to bury myself in the search for historical accuracy...; this would be all-consuming and would take time away from studying the actual content wherein I rely on the influence of the Spirit for interpretation. I believe that the book was meant for our time and it describes rather accurately how the world seems to be run these days. The idea that the Giants of Enoch were tall monsters might have been misinterpreted. The world is indeed run by Giants in our society who are consuming all of the acquisition of men and committing acts of gross violence through the countless wars that they start and fund.

Mike

[Niemand]

I see some of you guys referring to 7 angels, but I counted twice in the excerpt Mike showed in the first post and I'm only coming up with 6 angels (although it's 7 verses). Forgive me, but I have not red the original, maybe another angel name didn't make the cut for the excerpt shown? Just curious.

How trustworthy is the Book of Enoch in provenance, btw?

Sorry - I guess Phanuel is missing in that chapter. I thought he was the 7th.

Jesus quotes from the Book of Enoch and so do many Biblical authors. It was canonical in early Christianity.

It's still canonical to the Ethiopians and possibly the Copts. I've no idea how often it is used by them.

[Niemand]

My thread on the Ethiopian canon – needs more info
viewtopic.php?p=1348804

[BuriedTartaria]

Are the watchers the ones who lusted after mortal women and got what they wanted?

Lots of interesting implications here; high ranking angels can sin, high ranking angels can lust, high ranking angels feel a desire for those sort of connections, high ranking angels can pass through the veil even for evil and not just good

[BuriedTartaria]

Can these fallen angels find forgiveness? Can Lucifer?

[Niemand]

Can these fallen angels find forgiveness? Can Lucifer?

Traditionally no. But I always wondered that. Can an angel be deceived? Maybe. Maybe even Satan himself was deceived.

[ransomme]

Can these fallen angels find forgiveness? Can Lucifer?

Traditionally no. But I always wondered that. Can an angel be deceived? Maybe. Maybe even Satan himself was deceived.

I thought that some of the satanic teachings were that Lucifer is the anointed one, and that Jesus is a usurper. Of course, that's how they see it.

I've always wondered about the pattern of non-firstborns receiving the birthright. There are many prominent cases like Noah's sons, and Abraham's Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Ephraim, etc.

[BuriedTartaria]

It is said that he led the Heavenly Choir and that he still retains an interest in music (hence many musicians from Paganini to more recent ones are said to have been connected with him).

Wow, this makes a lot of sense.