Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

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Pazooka
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

Post by Pazooka »

Bronco73idi wrote: January 31st, 2023, 10:05 am
Pazooka wrote: January 31st, 2023, 9:33 am It doesn’t bother anyone that a lot of this discussion is based on Psalms 82:6 which is part of a temple play that acts out the judgement of the gods of the nations, the angelic beings (“shepherds”) which were delegated the governance of the nations?

Psalms 81 is saying how the Good Shepherd is over Israel but they reject Him in favor of other shepherds, ones that will be judged for their wrongdoing.

Why is Jesus quoting this out of context in John 10? (He’s not, BTW) There’s more to that story.
I would think, you of all people should understand the the Old Testament is law….

You think this discussion is based on Psalms 82:6, I say it’s based on John 10:34 and the adulter words are a second witness.

When he talks in parables he tells us a story, the rest of the time he is direct. Why do people think an author wants people to not understand him especially when he says, ye hypocrites, to his followers.

Luke 12

57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?

Educate me on what Jesus is calling law and why does he say, “I said, ye are gods” in John 10:34.
Not a law discussion so much as a “ye are gods” discussion.” These are angel princes of nations.

Bronco73idi
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

Post by Bronco73idi »

Pazooka wrote: January 31st, 2023, 10:16 am
Bronco73idi wrote: January 31st, 2023, 10:05 am
Pazooka wrote: January 31st, 2023, 9:33 am It doesn’t bother anyone that a lot of this discussion is based on Psalms 82:6 which is part of a temple play that acts out the judgement of the gods of the nations, the angelic beings (“shepherds”) which were delegated the governance of the nations?

Psalms 81 is saying how the Good Shepherd is over Israel but they reject Him in favor of other shepherds, ones that will be judged for their wrongdoing.

Why is Jesus quoting this out of context in John 10? (He’s not, BTW) There’s more to that story.
I would think, you of all people should understand the the Old Testament is law….

You think this discussion is based on Psalms 82:6, I say it’s based on John 10:34 and the adulter words are a second witness.

When he talks in parables he tells us a story, the rest of the time he is direct. Why do people think an author wants people to not understand him especially when he says, ye hypocrites, to his followers.

Luke 12

57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?

Educate me on what Jesus is calling law and why does he say, “I said, ye are gods” in John 10:34.
Not a law discussion so much as a “ye are gods” discussion.” These are angel princes of nations.
I can write a couple words that emotional appeal to me, also.

Scriptures with your interpretation, be a good Sadducees.

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Pazooka
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

Post by Pazooka »

Bronco73idi wrote: January 31st, 2023, 10:23 am
Pazooka wrote: January 31st, 2023, 10:16 am
Bronco73idi wrote: January 31st, 2023, 10:05 am
Pazooka wrote: January 31st, 2023, 9:33 am It doesn’t bother anyone that a lot of this discussion is based on Psalms 82:6 which is part of a temple play that acts out the judgement of the gods of the nations, the angelic beings (“shepherds”) which were delegated the governance of the nations?

Psalms 81 is saying how the Good Shepherd is over Israel but they reject Him in favor of other shepherds, ones that will be judged for their wrongdoing.

Why is Jesus quoting this out of context in John 10? (He’s not, BTW) There’s more to that story.
I would think, you of all people should understand the the Old Testament is law….

You think this discussion is based on Psalms 82:6, I say it’s based on John 10:34 and the adulter words are a second witness.

When he talks in parables he tells us a story, the rest of the time he is direct. Why do people think an author wants people to not understand him especially when he says, ye hypocrites, to his followers.

Luke 12

57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?

Educate me on what Jesus is calling law and why does he say, “I said, ye are gods” in John 10:34.
Not a law discussion so much as a “ye are gods” discussion.” These are angel princes of nations.
I can write a couple words that emotional appeal to me, also.

Scriptures with your interpretation, be a good Sadducees.
My question is: what are we thinking this verse about the angel princes of the nations has to do about men becoming gods?

Bronco73idi
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

Post by Bronco73idi »

Pazooka wrote: January 31st, 2023, 10:16 am
Bronco73idi wrote: January 31st, 2023, 10:05 am
Pazooka wrote: January 31st, 2023, 9:33 am It doesn’t bother anyone that a lot of this discussion is based on Psalms 82:6 which is part of a temple play that acts out the judgement of the gods of the nations, the angelic beings (“shepherds”) which were delegated the governance of the nations?

Psalms 81 is saying how the Good Shepherd is over Israel but they reject Him in favor of other shepherds, ones that will be judged for their wrongdoing.

Why is Jesus quoting this out of context in John 10? (He’s not, BTW) There’s more to that story.
I would think, you of all people should understand the the Old Testament is law….

You think this discussion is based on Psalms 82:6, I say it’s based on John 10:34 and the adulter words are a second witness.

When he talks in parables he tells us a story, the rest of the time he is direct. Why do people think an author wants people to not understand him especially when he says, ye hypocrites, to his followers.

Luke 12

57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?

Educate me on what Jesus is calling law and why does he say, “I said, ye are gods” in John 10:34.
Not a law discussion so much as a “ye are gods” discussion.” These are angel princes of nations.

O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you?

He said this to his disciples.

14 And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,
15 Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatic, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

When people are direct in our society we label them as unloving, mean, rude. We go as far as calling them unchristlike

“Definitions of unchristlike. adjective. not becoming to or like a Christian. synonyms: unchristianly unchristian. not of a Christian faith.“


Being direct in truth is Christlike.

The devil tells us to sugarcoat and be compassion in your words (hot air) to the ones in sin.

Bronco73idi
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

Post by Bronco73idi »

Pazooka wrote: January 31st, 2023, 10:49 am
Bronco73idi wrote: January 31st, 2023, 10:23 am
Pazooka wrote: January 31st, 2023, 10:16 am
Bronco73idi wrote: January 31st, 2023, 10:05 am

I would think, you of all people should understand the the Old Testament is law….

You think this discussion is based on Psalms 82:6, I say it’s based on John 10:34 and the adulter words are a second witness.

When he talks in parables he tells us a story, the rest of the time he is direct. Why do people think an author wants people to not understand him especially when he says, ye hypocrites, to his followers.

Luke 12

57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?

Educate me on what Jesus is calling law and why does he say, “I said, ye are gods” in John 10:34.
Not a law discussion so much as a “ye are gods” discussion.” These are angel princes of nations.
I can write a couple words that emotional appeal to me, also.

Scriptures with your interpretation, be a good Sadducees.
My question is: what are we thinking this verse about the angel princes of the nations has to do about men becoming gods?
You formed it as a statement…..

Angels are good people who did not participate in the everlasting covenant, darn that Isaiah 24:5….

The everlasting covenant means a lot more then most Christians or Lds can even fathom…. I had an ex Mormon tell me the everlasting covenant was only circumcision… Then he told me circumcision was fulfilled in Jesus per Paul and Isaiah 24:5 was about the house of Judah. I said, nay, Isaiah 24:4&6 tells us it is about the second coming, the earth didn’t burn the inhabitants of the house of Judah. It did burn Sodom and Gomorrah which were before the 12 tribes were created.

Let’s read this literally, like the lord commanded us in Mark 12:26-27

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Pazooka
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

Post by Pazooka »

Bronco73idi wrote: January 31st, 2023, 11:02 am
Pazooka wrote: January 31st, 2023, 10:49 am
Bronco73idi wrote: January 31st, 2023, 10:23 am
Pazooka wrote: January 31st, 2023, 10:16 am

Not a law discussion so much as a “ye are gods” discussion.” These are angel princes of nations.
I can write a couple words that emotional appeal to me, also.

Scriptures with your interpretation, be a good Sadducees.
My question is: what are we thinking this verse about the angel princes of the nations has to do about men becoming gods?
You formed it as a statement…..

Angels are good people who did not participate in the everlasting covenant, darn that Isaiah 24:5….

The everlasting covenant means a lot more then most Christians or Lds can even fathom…. I had an ex Mormon tell me the everlasting covenant was only circumcision… Then he told me circumcision was fulfilled in Jesus per Paul and Isaiah 24:5 was about the house of Judah. I said, nay, Isaiah 24:4&6 tells us it is about the second coming, the earth didn’t burn the inhabitants of the house of Judah. It did burn Sodom and Gomorrah which were before the 12 tribes were created.

Let’s read this literally, like the lord commanded us in Mark 12:26-27
You are talking gibberish - I wonder why you felt the need to respond when you clearly don’t understand my comment.

Bronco73idi
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

Post by Bronco73idi »

Pazooka wrote: January 31st, 2023, 12:37 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: January 31st, 2023, 11:02 am
Pazooka wrote: January 31st, 2023, 10:49 am
Bronco73idi wrote: January 31st, 2023, 10:23 am

I can write a couple words that emotional appeal to me, also.

Scriptures with your interpretation, be a good Sadducees.
My question is: what are we thinking this verse about the angel princes of the nations has to do about men becoming gods?
You formed it as a statement…..

Angels are good people who did not participate in the everlasting covenant, darn that Isaiah 24:5….

The everlasting covenant means a lot more then most Christians or Lds can even fathom…. I had an ex Mormon tell me the everlasting covenant was only circumcision… Then he told me circumcision was fulfilled in Jesus per Paul and Isaiah 24:5 was about the house of Judah. I said, nay, Isaiah 24:4&6 tells us it is about the second coming, the earth didn’t burn the inhabitants of the house of Judah. It did burn Sodom and Gomorrah which were before the 12 tribes were created.

Let’s read this literally, like the lord commanded us in Mark 12:26-27
You are talking gibberish - I wonder why you felt the need to respond when you clearly don’t understand my comment.
I didn’t know you are special and are required to talk indirectly to talk over the swine like me… interesting

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Pazooka
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

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Psalms 82 is the judgment of angels given power over mankind. They are sons of God. They are the shepherds of the parable of Enoch. They are in contrast to the Good Shepherd, made guardian over the nation of Israel

In John 10 Jesus talks about being the Good Shepherd and he goes on to quote Psalms 82.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?


Why are angel and “Son of God” connected in Jesus? Because Jesus is the Nazorean High Priest. The high priest was referred to as a “son of God” because he entered the Holy of Holies and was anointed, reborn, and conversed with God and was counted among the angels. This was their tradition and the people with whom He was speaking understood that. Angels, high priests, sons of God. They just happened to reject Jesus’ authority.

This has very little to do with Mormon ideas of how one becomes a god. That’s why I’m confused about why we’re using these scriptures in this way.

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Wolfwoman
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

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onefour1 wrote: January 30th, 2023, 2:59 pm I found the quotes of these early church fathers of the Catholic and other Christian religions professing to believe in the doctrine of becoming gods to be quite interesting.
Great video. It would have been awesome if President Hinckley could have given an answer similar to this when asked the question.

Bronco73idi
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

Post by Bronco73idi »

Pazooka wrote: January 31st, 2023, 1:40 pm Psalms 82 is the judgment of angels given power over mankind. They are sons of God. They are the shepherds of the parable of Enoch. They are in contrast to the Good Shepherd, made guardian over the nation of Israel

In John 10 Jesus talks about being the Good Shepherd and he goes on to quote Psalms 82.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?


Why are angel and “Son of God” connected in Jesus? Because Jesus is the Nazorean High Priest. The high priest was referred to as a “son of God” because he entered the Holy of Holies and was anointed, reborn, and conversed with God and was counted among the angels. This was their tradition and the people with whom He was speaking understood that. Angels, high priests, sons of God. They just happened to reject Jesus’ authority.

This has very little to do with Mormon ideas of how one becomes a god. That’s why I’m confused about why we’re using these scriptures in this way.
With my constant annoying message of reading the Bible literally and your riddle of “angel princes of nations” I have read genesis 6:1-6 in an entirely new and astonishing light.

I now see how it coincides with psalms 82, Jeremiah 31:27, John 10:34-36 precisely.

Even though we rarely agree, I do enjoy conversing with you.

I understand that no one will ever talk about Isaiah 24:4-6 and the everlasting covenant being broken by his children. The problem is that it tells us precisely why we are going to be tried and cleansed in the last days but no one wants to talk about it.


It all ties in together, one book with one author and many coauthors.

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TheDuke
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

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I would suggest reading the King Follet Discourse (amalgamated) to see what Joseph taught in his last general conference sermon. It is really the most definitive answer to these questions. See where he says (and in D&C that the first god was a spirit like the other intelligences but much more so and created the environment and path for others to follow. He didn't create the universe (not the physical side - elements, or the etherical/spiritual side - intelligences) but harnessed them. Then after finding a way to combine both, created a way for offspring to bring other advanced intelligences (spirit) along the way he/they came. First a path to salvation, that is to return to celestial as a citizen or adult, then from exaltation to exaltation until we become god and dwell in everlasting burnings.

No where does Joseph or the scriptures teach of the initial creation of the elements or intelligences (physical or spiritual universe), all he says is it happened all at once as we are all co-eternal as the first god.

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

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TheDuke wrote: January 31st, 2023, 5:21 pm I would suggest reading the King Follet Discourse (amalgamated) to see what Joseph taught in his last general conference sermon. It is really the most definitive answer to these questions. See where he says (and in D&C that the first god was a spirit like the other intelligences but much more so and created the environment and path for others to follow. He didn't create the universe (not the physical side - elements, or the etherical/spiritual side - intelligences) but harnessed them. Then after finding a way to combine both, created a way for offspring to bring other advanced intelligences (spirit) along the way he/they came. First a path to salvation, that is to return to celestial as a citizen or adult, then from exaltation to exaltation until we become god and dwell in everlasting burnings.

No where does Joseph or the scriptures teach of the initial creation of the elements or intelligences (physical or spiritual universe), all he says is it happened all at once as we are all co-eternal as the first god.
Yeah like I mentioned before, I think this is simply a different brand of atheism. No 'first cause' real God, just a guy who figured out how to push all the buttons and levers and got to exaltation first, and is helping everyone else do the same.

Bronco73idi
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

Post by Bronco73idi »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 31st, 2023, 10:39 pm
TheDuke wrote: January 31st, 2023, 5:21 pm I would suggest reading the King Follet Discourse (amalgamated) to see what Joseph taught in his last general conference sermon. It is really the most definitive answer to these questions. See where he says (and in D&C that the first god was a spirit like the other intelligences but much more so and created the environment and path for others to follow. He didn't create the universe (not the physical side - elements, or the etherical/spiritual side - intelligences) but harnessed them. Then after finding a way to combine both, created a way for offspring to bring other advanced intelligences (spirit) along the way he/they came. First a path to salvation, that is to return to celestial as a citizen or adult, then from exaltation to exaltation until we become god and dwell in everlasting burnings.

No where does Joseph or the scriptures teach of the initial creation of the elements or intelligences (physical or spiritual universe), all he says is it happened all at once as we are all co-eternal as the first god.
Yeah like I mentioned before, I think this is simply a different brand of atheism. No 'first cause' real God, just a guy who figured out how to push all the buttons and levers and got to exaltation first, and is helping everyone else do the same.
I think I understand what you are saying but the word atheism is way off. Without knowledge of proper definitions how can we properly communicate?

The idea that we have always existed and our Heavenly Father has created our body for our eternal soul to acquire is far from atheism. A traditional monotheism religion might say Heavenly Father created our body and soul and to believe our soul is eternal, ie without end is polytheism. We would or can then educate them, that yes we believe our soul is eternal but our lord Jesus taught us that we need to be one (monotheistic) with our wife in Matthew 19:8-9 and he taught he is one with his father, thus we are monotheistic in that nature. A traditional polytheism is the gods of the Greeks, Zeus, Apollo and such, they disagreed all the time, they didn’t have one will and one goal.

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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

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ransomme wrote: January 31st, 2023, 6:22 am What does God mean?
In what sense of the word are9 we gods?

Mini creators?
Knowers of good and evil?
Spiritual guides?
Mini judges?
I think we are considered gods in the sense that we are the very offspring of God. In other words gods beget gods. Also in the sense that we, of all the creations of God, are capable of becoming perfect, even as our Father in heaven is perfect. Other intelligences such as cats and dogs are not considered gods. Paul the Apostle believed that we were not just a creation of God but his literal offspring:

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

God is the Father of our spirits.

Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

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Pazooka
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

Post by Pazooka »

onefour1 wrote: February 1st, 2023, 9:04 pm
ransomme wrote: January 31st, 2023, 6:22 am What does God mean?
In what sense of the word are9 we gods?

Mini creators?
Knowers of good and evil?
Spiritual guides?
Mini judges?
I think we are considered gods in the sense that we are the very offspring of God. In other words gods beget gods. Also in the sense that we, of all the creations of God, are capable of becoming perfect, even as our Father in heaven is perfect. Other intelligences such as cats and dogs are not considered gods. Paul the Apostle believed that we were not just a creation of God but his literal offspring:

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

God is the Father of our spirits.

Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Paul, quoting the Hymn to Zeus? (Among other things)

Most glorious of immortals, many-named,

Almighty and for ever, thee, O Zeus,

Sovran o’er Nature, guiding with thy hand

All things that are, we greet with praises. Thee

’Tis meet that mortals call with one accord,

For we thine offspring are, and we alone

Of all that live and move upon this earth,

Receive the gift of imitative speech.”

—Cleanthes, Hymn to Zeus
.

That is not the only time Paul quotes pagan poets and philosophers.

Acts 26:14 “And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.

Better to yield him prayer and sacrifice than kick against the pricks, since Dionysus Is God, and thou but mortal.” Dionysus, Bacchae (from Euripides)

onefour1
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

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Paul and his family were Jews who held Roman citizenship. Paul was a Pharisee of the tribe of Benjamin who was born in Tarsus but moved to Jerusalem in his younger years.. He must have been familiar with Greco-Roman poetry and he was preaching to the Athenians when he taught of us being the offspring of God. Although he uses the Grecian poetry to put across the point of being offspring of God in Acts 17:28, as an Apostle of Christ he confirms it to be a true Christian principle in verse 29 and seems to imply that as God offspring, we are made in God's image and therefore God is not made of gold, silver, stone or graven by the art of man.

Whether the poem above is one that Paul referred to I do not know, but that seems to be good evidence that those who believed in the Greco-Roman gods did believe they were offspring of gods.

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Niemand
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

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onefour1 wrote: February 1st, 2023, 11:39 pm Paul and his family were Jews who held Roman citizenship. Paul was a Pharisee of the tribe of Benjamin who was born in Tarsus but moved to Jerusalem in his younger years.. He must have been familiar with Greco-Roman poetry and he was preaching to the Athenians when he taught of us being the offspring of God. Although he uses the Grecian poetry to put across the point of being offspring of God in Acts 17:28, as an Apostle of Christ he confirms it to be a true Christian principle in verse 29 and seems to imply that as God offspring, we are made in God's image and therefore God is not made of gold, silver, stone or graven by the art of man.

Whether the poem above is one that Paul referred to I do not know, but that seems to be good evidence that those who believed in the Greco-Roman gods did believe they were offspring of gods.
Many of the Greek heroes were demigods and the Greeks claimed descent from them.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

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Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 31st, 2023, 10:39 pm
Yeah like I mentioned before, I think this is simply a different brand of atheism. No 'first cause' real God, just a guy who figured out how to push all the buttons and levers and got to exaltation first, and is helping everyone else do the same.
Right, except it can't be one guy who figured it out. As I see it, there are more or less two scenarios here.

Scenario 1. God was always at the top of the intelligence ladder, and he is an entirely different species than we are, leaving a species divide that will always be there. We are his children only in an adopted sense, because we started out at the bottom of the intelligence ladder. This would also mean that every iteration of the plan of salvation it is he alone who has to incarnate each time to come down as a Savior.

Scenario 2. Here we would have many individuals (not one) who gained intelligence together by experimenting with moving spirit and element around until they got good enough to house themselves spiritually. Those first forays into spiritual matter and physical matter must have had a tremendous learning curve with people hurting each other and it would have been eons of time before they even tried their first "plan of salvation", all of which initially would have to have been failures, until after so many tries to elevate themselves, they finally realized that only someone who has done it all first has the power to succor others.

Scenario two is indeed atheism. Each scenario has some unappealing aspects to it.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

Post by Shawn Henry »

onefour1 wrote: February 1st, 2023, 9:04 pm I think we are considered gods in the sense that we are the very offspring of God. In other words gods beget gods.
Which way do you see it? Did God start out as we are doing?

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

Post by Shawn Henry »

Bronco73idi wrote: February 1st, 2023, 10:19 am The idea that we have always existed and our Heavenly Father has created our body for our eternal soul to acquire is far from atheism.
Did God start as we did? If not, he is an entirely different species and we can never truly become like him. If he did start like us, there was then a time when there was no God.

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TheDuke
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

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Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 31st, 2023, 10:39 pm
Yeah like I mentioned before, I think this is simply a different brand of atheism. No 'first cause' real God, just a guy who figured out how to push all the buttons and levers and got to exaltation first, and is helping everyone else do the same.
Not atheism at all. Atheism says we don't need a god to be here. But, we do. Joseph's god did not create the universe, so sure god wasn't needed to create the elements. Joseph's god rose to create as in organize and make possible. Take this earth, terra-form it if you like; put life on it. Wouldn't happen w/o organization and control. Atheism says it would happen spontaneously all on its own.

onefour1
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

Post by onefour1 »

Shawn Henry wrote: February 2nd, 2023, 10:16 am
onefour1 wrote: February 1st, 2023, 9:04 pm I think we are considered gods in the sense that we are the very offspring of God. In other words gods beget gods.
Which way do you see it? Did God start out as we are doing?
Joseph Smith suggested that the Father may have been a Christ on his own planet. So there is a slight variation of those who come to worlds. The vast majority tend to be those who come short of the glory of God and are fallen mankind. However, the Christ is a special kind of being who is able to come to the world and live sin free. So what makes a Christ so much more advanced than all the rest of us? I can only attribute it to two things. First, the intelligence of a Christ was probably way more advanced than the average intelligence. Second, a Christ is the very first born of a God and probably receives a greater degree of one on one attention from the Father and is able to become the creator (organizer) of all things before ever coming to an earth. Perhaps given these two things, a Christ uses their free will to advance much more quickly than other offspring of a God. Christs are much more advanced than the rest of us so maybe as an intelligence they spent their time advancing much quickly than the rest of us before being selected as a Christ. So it appears that there are a few among the vast number of intelligences that are advanced enough to become Christs. The ability of the Gods to know the end from the beginning must allow them to choose a Christ and know that they will not fail.

I think all of us have opportunity to advance but this must be respected through each one's free will. Some never choose to advance to become a God. Those who do make it to godhood, vary in how long it takes depending on how quickly they are willing to receive the knowledge and how quickly they are willing to bend their will to become one. The vast majority of us do not qualify to be a Christ but we still have the opportunity to advance. So to answer your question, I do believe that we are all from the same cloth. The big difference is that there are those who choose to apply themselves at a more rapid pace than others and tend to excel much faster. It may be that they realize the true path much faster and are willing to take that path more quickly than others. I don't believe that Gods are a totally different species than man. I believe we are the same and the big difference is self motivation and will.

I imagine that sometime in the distant past the most motivated of all intelligences, as you stated in a previous post, figured out how to take upon themselves spirit matter and then physical matter. Perhaps this was through obedient intelligences obeying them, we don't fully know. But somehow the elements of spirit matter were organized into the shape of a man or woman and may have taken eons and eons to come about. Somehow the means of procreating came about and that knowledge tends to only be given to the Gods. I don't think those of other kingdoms or the demons procreate. mortal man is given this power temporarily as part of the plan of salvation. Abusing this power in eternity appears to be something the Gods wish to avoid. I am sure the Gods have their ways of trying and testing all to be sure that those who truly take on the path to godhood are the only ones who make it. Those who become Gods receive all power that is capable to be received and control the universe(s). That's my take.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

Post by Shawn Henry »

onefour1 wrote: February 2nd, 2023, 12:31 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: February 2nd, 2023, 10:16 am
onefour1 wrote: February 1st, 2023, 9:04 pm I think we are considered gods in the sense that we are the very offspring of God. In other words gods beget gods.
Which way do you see it? Did God start out as we are doing?
Joseph Smith suggested that the Father may have been a Christ on his own planet. So there is a slight variation of those who come to worlds. The vast majority tend to be those who come short of the glory of God and are fallen mankind. However, the Christ is a special kind of being who is able to come to the world and live sin free. So what makes a Christ so much more advanced than all the rest of us? I can only attribute it to two things. First, the intelligence of a Christ was probably way more advanced than the average intelligence. Second, a Christ is the very first born of a God and probably receives a greater degree of one on one attention from the Father and is able to become the creator (organizer) of all things before ever coming to an earth. Perhaps given these two things, a Christ uses their free will to advance much more quickly than other offspring of a God. Christs are much more advanced than the rest of us so maybe as an intelligence they spent their time advancing much quickly than the rest of us before being selected as a Christ. So it appears that there are a few among the vast number of intelligences that are advanced enough to become Christs. The ability of the Gods to know the end from the beginning must allow them to choose a Christ and know that they will not fail.

I think all of us have opportunity to advance but this must be respected through each one's free will. Some never choose to advance to become a God. Those who do make it to godhood, vary in how long it takes depending on how quickly they are willing to receive the knowledge and how quickly they are willing to bend their will to become one. The vast majority of us do not qualify to be a Christ but we still have the opportunity to advance. So to answer your question, I do believe that we are all from the same cloth. The big difference is that there are those who choose to apply themselves at a more rapid pace than others and tend to excel much faster. It may be that they realize the true path much faster and are willing to take that path more quickly than others. I don't believe that Gods are a totally different species than man. I believe we are the same and the big difference is self motivation and will.

I imagine that sometime in the distant past the most motivated of all intelligences, as you stated in a previous post, figured out how to take upon themselves spirit matter and then physical matter. Perhaps this was through obedient intelligences obeying them, we don't fully know. But somehow the elements of spirit matter were organized into the shape of a man or woman and may have taken eons and eons to come about. Somehow the means of procreating came about and that knowledge tends to only be given to the Gods. I don't think those of other kingdoms or the demons procreate. mortal man is given this power temporarily as part of the plan of salvation. Abusing this power in eternity appears to be something the Gods wish to avoid. I am sure the Gods have their ways of trying and testing all to be sure that those who truly take on the path to godhood are the only ones who make it. Those who become Gods receive all power that is capable to be received and control the universe(s). That's my take.
Thanks for that. As I see it, based on your view, Red Pill's point would still stand. There was a time when all Gods started out at the bottom rungs of the intelligence ladder just like us, which means who was the first God and how did he become such. Where did it all start?

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Pazooka
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

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onefour1 wrote: February 1st, 2023, 11:39 pm Paul and his family were Jews who held Roman citizenship. Paul was a Pharisee of the tribe of Benjamin who was born in Tarsus but moved to Jerusalem in his younger years.. He must have been familiar with Greco-Roman poetry and he was preaching to the Athenians when he taught of us being the offspring of God. Although he uses the Grecian poetry to put across the point of being offspring of God in Acts 17:28, as an Apostle of Christ he confirms it to be a true Christian principle in verse 29 and seems to imply that as God offspring, we are made in God's image and therefore God is not made of gold, silver, stone or graven by the art of man.

Whether the poem above is one that Paul referred to I do not know, but that seems to be good evidence that those who believed in the Greco-Roman gods did believe they were offspring of gods.
Is he an apostle of Christ or of Dionysus? It sounds like Dionysus was being quoted in his calling to the ministry. Maybe Jesus is a big fan of Greek tragedy and wanted to borrow a literary phrase.

Bronco73idi
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Re: Early Church Fathers believed in the doctrine of becoming Gods.

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Shawn Henry wrote: February 2nd, 2023, 10:26 am
Bronco73idi wrote: February 1st, 2023, 10:19 am The idea that we have always existed and our Heavenly Father has created our body for our eternal soul to acquire is far from atheism.
Did God start as we did? If not, he is an entirely different species and we can never truly become like him. If he did start like us, there was then a time when there was no God.
What god? The one of the living or the one of the dead? Mark 12:27.

Why do we be like the Sadducees and greatly err so much?

I’ll add psalms 82: 1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

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