The Data is in: The Covid injections are destroying the immune system

[nightlight]

In case anybody missed it, a paper was published in December called "Class switch toward noninflammatory, spike-specific IgG4 antibodies after repeated SARS-CoV-2 mRNA vaccination" https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciimmunol.ade2798

In layman's terms when the body is repeatedly exposed to a harmless foreign body, such as pollen, the body begins producing IgG4 antibodies so that any immune cell it encounters will be instructed to leave it alone. The data is showing people that have been injected multiple times with the Covid MRNA products are producing high levels of IgG4 antibodies in relation to the Spike protein

the Pro vaccine scientists are saying that "The clinical significance is not known" https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/16 ... 5448595456

However those scientists who have been warning about these injections from the beginning are saying otherwise

https://jessicar.substack.com/p/the-imm ... WrUSsgsjQo

https://veryvirology.substack.com/p/igg ... tch-end-of

Imagine bribing, mandating and even urging millions/billions people to take a product that wasn't fully understood on rollout

My wife's immune system is not working properly. She picks up everything and fights with it. She has no energy and brain fog. They call it long COVID. BULL CRAP. IT'S A DIRECT RESULT OF THE VACCINE SHE HAD TO TAKE TO KEEP HER JOB.

At 45:54 is what my family is doing this

Alma
"by small and simple things are great things brought to pass"

Edit: use all natural baking soda (Aluminum Free )

[Ciams]

In case anybody missed it, a paper was published in December called "Class switch toward noninflammatory, spike-specific IgG4 antibodies after repeated SARS-CoV-2 mRNA vaccination" https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciimmunol.ade2798

In layman's terms when the body is repeatedly exposed to a harmless foreign body, such as pollen, the body begins producing IgG4 antibodies so that any immune cell it encounters will be instructed to leave it alone. The data is showing people that have been injected multiple times with the Covid MRNA products are producing high levels of IgG4 antibodies in relation to the Spike protein

the Pro vaccine scientists are saying that "The clinical significance is not known" https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/16 ... 5448595456

However those scientists who have been warning about these injections from the beginning are saying otherwise

https://jessicar.substack.com/p/the-imm ... WrUSsgsjQo

https://veryvirology.substack.com/p/igg ... tch-end-of

Imagine bribing, mandating and even urging millions/billions people to take a product that wasn't fully understood on rollout

Imagine calling that product safe and effective, a godsend, the miracle we prayed for, and the ONLY way to end the pandemic. Imagine mandating it for almost all young men and young women who want to serve missions and go to a church college. Yeah, just imagine that.

The response to this is that the rest of the world required it to leave the house, cross borders, go to stores.

That being said, I certainly would have been happy if the church said, "No one can be sure of the long term effects of this, so consult your doctor and prayerfully decide for yourself. In the meantime, church remains canceled wherever there are vaccine or social distancing requirements, and in- person missionary efforts are likewise curtailed. We petition governments to safely permit the free exercise of religions gatherings everywhere. "

But does anyone think that would accomplish anything? The hesitant would still hesitate. The conformist would still be angry about the church not conforming. The church would get attacked as antiscience and dangerous. The hard core anti govt zealots might be even more emboldened to protest and draw down wrath on our church and members. Those who were hesitant but conformed revealed they trust the prophet more than their own prompting or wisdom -- which could be to their credit or reveal they are manipulated by peer pressure.

Myself, early on, I felt skeptical but thought I'd likely get the vaccine after 10 months, but then I got covid and shrugged it off and also saw all the early heart issues and figured I have better immunity and don't need to add to the risk. I made my own decisions.

I don't know why people are so upset about this issue from the church perspective. The Lord had very little to say about a tyranny oppressing his people that would literally crucify him and his followers. He even suggested they pay taxes to support it and they do more than whatever the soldiers asked of them. I have no beef with President Nelson et al. Some of us need to get the bitterness out of their heart.

We will all die as part of the plan. Obviously, be wise and make your own choices. We have far more to blame Trump or Biden for in our lives, but I don't live my life obsessed over it.

I would suggest reading the entire standard works for a more accurate understanding of our Lord. In the D&C he seems to be against tyranny. He says slavery is not right and that the Constitution was inspired. In the Book of Mormon they have a system of judges and popular votes for their government, instead of kings. And the Lord was not happy about them destroying their system of government and breaking up into tribes before he came to visit them in 3rd Nephi. In the Old Testament he gives his people Moses to lead them out of slavery. I would say he’s a proponent of liberty. Yes at times we are stuck, like the people in the Book of Mormon who were enslaved and had burdens put on their backs. But eventually they escaped that tyranny too. The Book of Mormon is very pro freedom actually. And I’m sure the Lord is fine with people being against something that sounds an awful lot like the mark of the beast in the book of Revelation.

Thank you for referencing modern revelation. I'm thankful for it. Do you think everything that was done in Joseph Smith's time was the "right" way to do it? Because calling out your neighbors as sinners and letting them know God will come and throw down their false beliefs, etc. seemed to make the church members a lot of enemies. The church was driven from city to city, if you recall; and the Lord didn't come and save the day, but told them they were themselves not living the gospel properly in at least one case.

I think having leaders who are wise as serpents and harmless as doves is important. Is there a cost? Yes, a real one. Is there a cost to the church rising up? Yes, certainly. It's the age old debate of having the enemies code cracked -- do you reveal the fact that you've cracked the code and lose your advantage? Or play along and try to mitigate the cost, but some people really will suffer as a result.

I'm not saying that's a perfect parallel and you guys can get all upset about a godsend language. Whatever. Again, the Savior was not solving the saints problems with tyranny in Joseph's time, he didn't solve them in the Roman's time, and I hope we can all agree that all of us are better off now than they were in Joseph's time or in Peter's time.

Don't get me wrong, it's obvious to pretty much everyone on this forum that covid was an excuse for this "vaccine" tech to get pushed. Do you really think the apostles are going to say that? I think in the world we live, it's a reasonable path to take to trust in experts where that expert advice does not contradict the revealed word of God.

We can insist that our leaders should be receiving revelation on everything they do and say -- and from that perspective it might be God allowing these things to play out for his own reasons, and the leaders are just interpreting that as "vaccine = good". The church may very well be coopted by rubbing shoulders in "respectable" society of various "human rights" organizations and agendas that seek to manipulate good intentions for the gain of secret combinations. But the alternate solution -- for the church to completely withdrawal and have no further influence and let those organizations run around and do exactly what they are doing without the church aware and playing a mitigating factor where it can is a worse option.

It's clear the Lord isn't baring his arm yet to throw down the secret combinations. Why do we expect the church to stand up and fight against it if the Lord has not asked us to?

All of this just comes down to some people putting more faith in their own perspective than trusting in God through his servants. None of you that claim to follow Christ over "the church" have really done a good job demonstrating to me a true Christ like character in the way you are approaching this issue. I see all this anger and accusation against virtually everyone that doesn't do what you think should happen. That resembles the other guy more than Christ doesn't it?

[madvin]

This is the price we are paying for our ignorance; ignorance of what constitutes being healthy and ignorance of what to do to keep our health. We are ignorant of how our bodies work. We have many different factions to thank for this, such as big oil, which has given birth to pharmaceuticals,(1) medical schools that eschew naturopathy as quackery (2), how the Flexner report changed the face of medical schools (3). Also, as a point of interest, the Johns Hopkins University was founded by a bonesman from Yale. And the unscientific study of virology, just to name a few of those reasons for our ignorance.


• Viruses do not ‘exist’ outside of petri-dish solutions or a living body.

• Viruses cannot function without a host cell that manufactures them and encodes them, and viruses cannot replicate without a host cell.

• Viruses do not ‘infect’ or ‘invade’ cells. They are not alive to do so in the first place. Viruses almost never dissolve living tissue, unless in specific circumstances such as polio and degenerative nervous system diseases where metal toxicity is present.

• Viruses’ primary function is to dissolve dead matter.

• Cells produce different viral strains depending on the condition of the tissue involved. • There are 320,000 viral strains inherent to the human body, and each cell contains the viral protein makeup to manufacture each strain when the body calls for it.

• Viruses are sequenced/encoded by blood cells via RNA/DNA to break down specific dead and dying tissue and waste. Viruses are very specific protein structures.

• Coughing, sneezing, and spitting is not a vector for the transmission of viruses. Saliva and mucus membranes break down any such particles. Skin is not a vector either because viruses cannot cross dead skin layers.

• The only way to get a virus outside of natural means is via direct injection (vaccine) or blood transfusions of a patient who has a virus. However, in such cases, the body only analyzes it as foreign tissue that must be eliminated. Since the virus did not originate within the bodily host, that body does not know the time and place that the virus will be active nor does it have the key to decode it (RNA or DNA encoded by the cell) and cannot find the time of its activity. As such, it is analyzed as a foreign substance that must be eliminated. Protein solvents (viruses) are manufactured of varying strengths to discard this waste if living microbes cannot eliminate it.

• Viruses are a result of internal toxicity caused by the environment. Viruses are cyclical in animals. Viruses feed upon waste products in the blood and tissue. Throughout the year, upon season and climatic/temperature changes, the body will dump mass amounts of toxins into the blood for removal. Some of these toxins are so toxic in nature, such as mercury, formaldehyde, and other chemical byproducts, that living microbes cannot feed upon and eliminate them without dying. Non-living proteins are then manufactured by each cell in the corresponding location of the body where this cleansing is necessary. Those toxic substances are disassembled and broken down by viruses so that the body can eliminate them, restoring homeostasis.

• The only way viruses can be used as biological weapons is via injection, period. It is possible that such manmade viral strains are included in regular existing vaccines, and this should not be ruled out as a possibility, but as previously stated, viral strains from outside the body are not recognized. However, manmade substances that are injected can be designed to provoke extreme reactions in humans via various levels of tissue sterilization and adjuvants.

• Viruses cannot cross-species ie; from animal to mankind. It is impossible for humans to develop animal flus–A. Because viruses are not contagious, and, B. Because animal RNA/DNA is not compatible with human RNA/DNA. The only way animal tissue can be observed in the blood is through injection of animal tissues, which make their way to the blood, bypassing the digestive tract. Only then will swine tissue, or bird tissue, or any such animal tissue appear in the body. When animal meat is consumed by a human, it is converted into human tissue. Human cells cannot produce animal cells or viruses. If we develop viruses, they are human viruses. Even if animal viruses ‘hijacked’ human cells, human cells cannot possibly produce animal viruses.

Excerpted from The Deception of Virology & Vaccines: Why Coronavirus Is Not Contagious

Source: https://virusesarenotcontagious.com/



(1) http://www.defenddemocracy.press/how-ro ... ral-cures/
(2) https://digitalcommons.rockefeller.edu/ ... ellers/37/
(3) https://meridianhealthclinic.com/how-ro ... -medicine/

[Wolfwoman]

Imagine calling that product safe and effective, a godsend, the miracle we prayed for, and the ONLY way to end the pandemic. Imagine mandating it for almost all young men and young women who want to serve missions and go to a church college. Yeah, just imagine that.

The response to this is that the rest of the world required it to leave the house, cross borders, go to stores.

That being said, I certainly would have been happy if the church said, "No one can be sure of the long term effects of this, so consult your doctor and prayerfully decide for yourself. In the meantime, church remains canceled wherever there are vaccine or social distancing requirements, and in- person missionary efforts are likewise curtailed. We petition governments to safely permit the free exercise of religions gatherings everywhere. "

But does anyone think that would accomplish anything? The hesitant would still hesitate. The conformist would still be angry about the church not conforming. The church would get attacked as antiscience and dangerous. The hard core anti govt zealots might be even more emboldened to protest and draw down wrath on our church and members. Those who were hesitant but conformed revealed they trust the prophet more than their own prompting or wisdom -- which could be to their credit or reveal they are manipulated by peer pressure.

Myself, early on, I felt skeptical but thought I'd likely get the vaccine after 10 months, but then I got covid and shrugged it off and also saw all the early heart issues and figured I have better immunity and don't need to add to the risk. I made my own decisions.

I don't know why people are so upset about this issue from the church perspective. The Lord had very little to say about a tyranny oppressing his people that would literally crucify him and his followers. He even suggested they pay taxes to support it and they do more than whatever the soldiers asked of them. I have no beef with President Nelson et al. Some of us need to get the bitterness out of their heart.

We will all die as part of the plan. Obviously, be wise and make your own choices. We have far more to blame Trump or Biden for in our lives, but I don't live my life obsessed over it.

I would suggest reading the entire standard works for a more accurate understanding of our Lord. In the D&C he seems to be against tyranny. He says slavery is not right and that the Constitution was inspired. In the Book of Mormon they have a system of judges and popular votes for their government, instead of kings. And the Lord was not happy about them destroying their system of government and breaking up into tribes before he came to visit them in 3rd Nephi. In the Old Testament he gives his people Moses to lead them out of slavery. I would say he’s a proponent of liberty. Yes at times we are stuck, like the people in the Book of Mormon who were enslaved and had burdens put on their backs. But eventually they escaped that tyranny too. The Book of Mormon is very pro freedom actually. And I’m sure the Lord is fine with people being against something that sounds an awful lot like the mark of the beast in the book of Revelation.

Thank you for referencing modern revelation. I'm thankful for it. Do you think everything that was done in Joseph Smith's time was the "right" way to do it? Because calling out your neighbors as sinners and letting them know God will come and throw down their false beliefs, etc. seemed to make the church members a lot of enemies. The church was driven from city to city, if you recall; and the Lord didn't come and save the day, but told them they were themselves not living the gospel properly in at least one case.

I think having leaders who are wise as serpents and harmless as doves is important. Is there a cost? Yes, a real one. Is there a cost to the church rising up? Yes, certainly. It's the age old debate of having the enemies code cracked -- do you reveal the fact that you've cracked the code and lose your advantage? Or play along and try to mitigate the cost, but some people really will suffer as a result.

I'm not saying that's a perfect parallel and you guys can get all upset about a godsend language. Whatever. Again, the Savior was not solving the saints problems with tyranny in Joseph's time, he didn't solve them in the Roman's time, and I hope we can all agree that all of us are better off now than they were in Joseph's time or in Peter's time.

Don't get me wrong, it's obvious to pretty much everyone on this forum that covid was an excuse for this "vaccine" tech to get pushed. Do you really think the apostles are going to say that? I think in the world we live, it's a reasonable path to take to trust in experts where that expert advice does not contradict the revealed word of God.

We can insist that our leaders should be receiving revelation on everything they do and say -- and from that perspective it might be God allowing these things to play out for his own reasons, and the leaders are just interpreting that as "vaccine = good". The church may very well be coopted by rubbing shoulders in "respectable" society of various "human rights" organizations and agendas that seek to manipulate good intentions for the gain of secret combinations. But the alternate solution -- for the church to completely withdrawal and have no further influence and let those organizations run around and do exactly what they are doing without the church aware and playing a mitigating factor where it can is a worse option.

It's clear the Lord isn't baring his arm yet to throw down the secret combinations. Why do we expect the church to stand up and fight against it if the Lord has not asked us to?

All of this just comes down to some people putting more faith in their own perspective than trusting in God through his servants. None of you that claim to follow Christ over "the church" have really done a good job demonstrating to me a true Christ like character in the way you are approaching this issue. I see all this anger and accusation against virtually everyone that doesn't do what you think should happen. That resembles the other guy more than Christ doesn't it?

Of course I don’t believe everything done in Joseph Smith’s time was done right. If the saints had been able to build Zion, the Lord most certainly would have fought their battles for them. But unfortunately the church was not successful in building Zion, or even in building the Nauvoo temple in time. They were under condemnation and they had to leave their homes and travel west (from a Brighamite perspective). The Romans, as far as I know, never had a promise from God.

Why do you say the Lord has not asked us to fight against secret combinations? He most certainly did, through Moroni. He told us to awaken to our awful situation and not allow the secret combinations to get above us.

I don’t think I’ve said or done anything particularly unChristlike in this discussion. If I have, please let me know. I do know that I don’t have great powers of persuasion, so maybe I should just roll over and let it all unfold. But I am the type to dream the impossible dream I suppose. So here I am, discussing on a freedom forum, freedom.

I’m glad that you did not have to/ chose not to get the shot. But it came awfully close to being forced upon us, by Biden yes, not Nelson. But couldn’t Nelson at the very least have just remained silent about it? Why couldn’t he get the shots for himself if that is what he chose to do, and not have to post a picture of it on social media? And, to beat a dead horse I guess, why did they have to say it was a godsend and a miracle, and that they urged all members of the church to get it? They supposedly remain neutral on political matters. Why couldn’t they remain neutral on this? I know a lot of people who got it because Nelson said it was good. So in their mind that meant that God said it was good. And then the August 2021 letter was practically a commandment to get it.

[Ciams]

This is the price we are paying for our ignorance; ignorance of what constitutes being healthy and ignorance of what to do to keep our health. We are ignorant of how our bodies work. We have many different factions to thank for this, such as big oil, which has given birth to pharmaceuticals,(1) medical schools that eschew naturopathy as quackery (2), how the Flexner report changed the face of medical schools (3). Also, as a point of interest, the Johns Hopkins University was founded by a bonesman from Yale. And the unscientific study of virology, just to name a few of those reasons for our ignorance.


• Viruses do not ‘exist’ outside of petri-dish solutions or a living body.

I'm not an expert, but I've read interesting articles before this covid mess, that undercut all the mask and distancing nonsense incidentally.

https://news.sky.com/story/viruses-rain ... s-11239059

What's great about this article is there is no agenda behind it. The reality of this fact should undercut all controls on people. There is literally nothing you can do if viral particles fill the air and rain down from near-space. Now, they are typically dead at that point, but we really don't know very much and it's highly likely this is how some viruses travel. Who knows.

But If your sources can't square that article I read, and what my common sense suggests, I can't believe what you're trying to convince me of.

[Ciams]

The response to this is that the rest of the world required it to leave the house, cross borders, go to stores.

That being said, I certainly would have been happy if the church said, "No one can be sure of the long term effects of this, so consult your doctor and prayerfully decide for yourself. In the meantime, church remains canceled wherever there are vaccine or social distancing requirements, and in- person missionary efforts are likewise curtailed. We petition governments to safely permit the free exercise of religions gatherings everywhere. "

But does anyone think that would accomplish anything? The hesitant would still hesitate. The conformist would still be angry about the church not conforming. The church would get attacked as antiscience and dangerous. The hard core anti govt zealots might be even more emboldened to protest and draw down wrath on our church and members. Those who were hesitant but conformed revealed they trust the prophet more than their own prompting or wisdom -- which could be to their credit or reveal they are manipulated by peer pressure.

Myself, early on, I felt skeptical but thought I'd likely get the vaccine after 10 months, but then I got covid and shrugged it off and also saw all the early heart issues and figured I have better immunity and don't need to add to the risk. I made my own decisions.

I don't know why people are so upset about this issue from the church perspective. The Lord had very little to say about a tyranny oppressing his people that would literally crucify him and his followers. He even suggested they pay taxes to support it and they do more than whatever the soldiers asked of them. I have no beef with President Nelson et al. Some of us need to get the bitterness out of their heart.

We will all die as part of the plan. Obviously, be wise and make your own choices. We have far more to blame Trump or Biden for in our lives, but I don't live my life obsessed over it.

I would suggest reading the entire standard works for a more accurate understanding of our Lord. In the D&C he seems to be against tyranny. He says slavery is not right and that the Constitution was inspired. In the Book of Mormon they have a system of judges and popular votes for their government, instead of kings. And the Lord was not happy about them destroying their system of government and breaking up into tribes before he came to visit them in 3rd Nephi. In the Old Testament he gives his people Moses to lead them out of slavery. I would say he’s a proponent of liberty. Yes at times we are stuck, like the people in the Book of Mormon who were enslaved and had burdens put on their backs. But eventually they escaped that tyranny too. The Book of Mormon is very pro freedom actually. And I’m sure the Lord is fine with people being against something that sounds an awful lot like the mark of the beast in the book of Revelation.

Thank you for referencing modern revelation. I'm thankful for it. Do you think everything that was done in Joseph Smith's time was the "right" way to do it? Because calling out your neighbors as sinners and letting them know God will come and throw down their false beliefs, etc. seemed to make the church members a lot of enemies. The church was driven from city to city, if you recall; and the Lord didn't come and save the day, but told them they were themselves not living the gospel properly in at least one case.

I think having leaders who are wise as serpents and harmless as doves is important. Is there a cost? Yes, a real one. Is there a cost to the church rising up? Yes, certainly. It's the age old debate of having the enemies code cracked -- do you reveal the fact that you've cracked the code and lose your advantage? Or play along and try to mitigate the cost, but some people really will suffer as a result.

I'm not saying that's a perfect parallel and you guys can get all upset about a godsend language. Whatever. Again, the Savior was not solving the saints problems with tyranny in Joseph's time, he didn't solve them in the Roman's time, and I hope we can all agree that all of us are better off now than they were in Joseph's time or in Peter's time.

Don't get me wrong, it's obvious to pretty much everyone on this forum that covid was an excuse for this "vaccine" tech to get pushed. Do you really think the apostles are going to say that? I think in the world we live, it's a reasonable path to take to trust in experts where that expert advice does not contradict the revealed word of God.

We can insist that our leaders should be receiving revelation on everything they do and say -- and from that perspective it might be God allowing these things to play out for his own reasons, and the leaders are just interpreting that as "vaccine = good". The church may very well be coopted by rubbing shoulders in "respectable" society of various "human rights" organizations and agendas that seek to manipulate good intentions for the gain of secret combinations. But the alternate solution -- for the church to completely withdrawal and have no further influence and let those organizations run around and do exactly what they are doing without the church aware and playing a mitigating factor where it can is a worse option.

It's clear the Lord isn't baring his arm yet to throw down the secret combinations. Why do we expect the church to stand up and fight against it if the Lord has not asked us to?

All of this just comes down to some people putting more faith in their own perspective than trusting in God through his servants. None of you that claim to follow Christ over "the church" have really done a good job demonstrating to me a true Christ like character in the way you are approaching this issue. I see all this anger and accusation against virtually everyone that doesn't do what you think should happen. That resembles the other guy more than Christ doesn't it?

...
Why do you say the Lord has not asked us to fight against secret combinations? He most certainly did, through Moroni. He told us to awaken to our awful situation and not allow the secret combinations to get above us.
...
I don’t think I’ve said or done anything particularly unChristlike in this discussion. If I have, please let me know. I do know that I don’t have great powers of persuasion, so maybe I should just roll over and let it all unfold. But I am the type to dream the impossible dream I suppose. So here I am, discussing on a freedom forum, freedom.
...

I am awake. I think many are, many are not. I'm not sure If the solution is to call out the organizations that literally have the power to destroy the world -- maybe it will be at some point. Maybe the Lord is saddened that we aren't. Maybe he'd fight our battles for us if we did so -- but I know he didn't in Joseph's time. So calling them out, bringing down hell's fury on the church, and then telling the church members it happened to their children because they are doing a bad job, seems like a worse alternative. I think the other alternative -- which is what they are largely doing -- pointing to Christ telling people to follow him is about as good as we can get. I think there's a lot to be said for putting focus there. I think we can go around and around on the vaccine advice, but let's be clear, it's not a test of fellowship, it's not a temple recommend question, we aren't harping on it over and over again, and to the extent that Elder Renlund felt compelled to speak on it, was likely because we have so many in the church fighting on this issue. If we just listed to the "urging" of that August letter you cited, and those who wanted to do so did so, and those who didn't, didn't, and we all moved on, no big deal. That's my take on it. I'm not focused on that, but where appropriate I do bring up the obvious issues with the vaccine and I'm more familiar than most.

Regarding unChristlike behavior, I agree, you have not. I did not intend that comment to be about you as I was absolutely sincere in that you specifically brought it back to the scriptures and revelation and NOT making random comments about the Preside of the Corporation of the... or the bizarre sex cult claims that someone made earlier. What am I supposed to do with an anonymous angry comment online against someone who preaches of Christ and person righteousness and has spent his entire life doing so, when he really could have retired years ago and lived a life of debauchery however he wanted, if that's what he wanted. But no, the guy married an old single lady and gave her the respect and hope she'd waited for her entire life. He's the bad guy? No... at worst, President Nelson is someone who's voice is so sweetly calculated that it causes me to doze off when I listen to him because he speaks far too relaxing and patient of a tone to hold my attention if I stayed up a bit late the night before.

[Being There]

[Thinker]

It blows me away how cultish people act without realizing it. Defend the cult leader no matter what evil they do! The cult leader is their false god who they prioritize before God.

Nelson has been involved in sexual abuse cover ups, financial corruption and unrighteous dominion in medically coercing members to “follow the profit” in taking the experimental shot which according to a GA relative - was just staged - & GA got saline.

Too many loved ones have died because of these experimental shots. I understand that overcoming cultish indoctrination takes A LOT - but the degree of unrighteous dominion is also A LOT.

Alas…


Of course, those chains come with attractive perks like one’s entire life comfortably based on them. So it’s understandable to choose them. Narrow is the way…

[madvin]

This is the price we are paying for our ignorance; ignorance of what constitutes being healthy and ignorance of what to do to keep our health. We are ignorant of how our bodies work. We have many different factions to thank for this, such as big oil, which has given birth to pharmaceuticals,(1) medical schools that eschew naturopathy as quackery (2), how the Flexner report changed the face of medical schools (3). Also, as a point of interest, the Johns Hopkins University was founded by a bonesman from Yale. And the unscientific study of virology, just to name a few of those reasons for our ignorance.


• Viruses do not ‘exist’ outside of petri-dish solutions or a living body.

I'm not an expert, but I've read interesting articles before this covid mess, that undercut all the mask and distancing nonsense incidentally.

https://news.sky.com/story/viruses-rain ... s-11239059

What's great about this article is there is no agenda behind it. The reality of this fact should undercut all controls on people. There is literally nothing you can do if viral particles fill the air and rain down from near-space. Now, they are typically dead at that point, but we really don't know very much and it's highly likely this is how some viruses travel. Who knows.

But If your sources can't square that article I read, and what my common sense suggests, I can't believe what you're trying to convince me of.

That's a rather bizarre article, don't you think? It kind of makes reason stare. But even if so, viral particles do not enter into the body, as per my article. Well, not MY article, but the one I quoted. And I take slight issue with the "no agenda" claim. It was written in 2018, just prior to the claimed pandemic. Very clever.

[LDS Physician]

Imagine calling that product safe and effective, a godsend, the miracle we prayed for, and the ONLY way to end the pandemic. Imagine mandating it for almost all young men and young women who want to serve missions and go to a church college. Yeah, just imagine that.

The response to this is that the rest of the world required it to leave the house, cross borders, go to stores.

That being said, I certainly would have been happy if the church said, "No one can be sure of the long term effects of this, so consult your doctor and prayerfully decide for yourself. In the meantime, church remains canceled wherever there are vaccine or social distancing requirements, and in- person missionary efforts are likewise curtailed. We petition governments to safely permit the free exercise of religions gatherings everywhere. "

But does anyone think that would accomplish anything? The hesitant would still hesitate. The conformist would still be angry about the church not conforming. The church would get attacked as antiscience and dangerous. The hard core anti govt zealots might be even more emboldened to protest and draw down wrath on our church and members. Those who were hesitant but conformed revealed they trust the prophet more than their own prompting or wisdom -- which could be to their credit or reveal they are manipulated by peer pressure.

Myself, early on, I felt skeptical but thought I'd likely get the vaccine after 10 months, but then I got covid and shrugged it off and also saw all the early heart issues and figured I have better immunity and don't need to add to the risk. I made my own decisions.

I don't know why people are so upset about this issue from the church perspective. The Lord had very little to say about a tyranny oppressing his people that would literally crucify him and his followers. He even suggested they pay taxes to support it and they do more than whatever the soldiers asked of them. I have no beef with President Nelson et al. Some of us need to get the bitterness out of their heart.

We will all die as part of the plan. Obviously, be wise and make your own choices. We have far more to blame Trump or Biden for in our lives, but I don't live my life obsessed over it.

I would suggest reading the entire standard works for a more accurate understanding of our Lord. In the D&C he seems to be against tyranny. He says slavery is not right and that the Constitution was inspired. In the Book of Mormon they have a system of judges and popular votes for their government, instead of kings. And the Lord was not happy about them destroying their system of government and breaking up into tribes before he came to visit them in 3rd Nephi. In the Old Testament he gives his people Moses to lead them out of slavery. I would say he’s a proponent of liberty. Yes at times we are stuck, like the people in the Book of Mormon who were enslaved and had burdens put on their backs. But eventually they escaped that tyranny too. The Book of Mormon is very pro freedom actually. And I’m sure the Lord is fine with people being against something that sounds an awful lot like the mark of the beast in the book of Revelation.

Thank you for referencing modern revelation. I'm thankful for it. Do you think everything that was done in Joseph Smith's time was the "right" way to do it? Because calling out your neighbors as sinners and letting them know God will come and throw down their false beliefs, etc. seemed to make the church members a lot of enemies. The church was driven from city to city, if you recall; and the Lord didn't come and save the day, but told them they were themselves not living the gospel properly in at least one case.

I think having leaders who are wise as serpents and harmless as doves is important. Is there a cost? Yes, a real one. Is there a cost to the church rising up? Yes, certainly. It's the age old debate of having the enemies code cracked -- do you reveal the fact that you've cracked the code and lose your advantage? Or play along and try to mitigate the cost, but some people really will suffer as a result.

I'm not saying that's a perfect parallel and you guys can get all upset about a godsend language. Whatever. Again, the Savior was not solving the saints problems with tyranny in Joseph's time, he didn't solve them in the Roman's time, and I hope we can all agree that all of us are better off now than they were in Joseph's time or in Peter's time.

Don't get me wrong, it's obvious to pretty much everyone on this forum that covid was an excuse for this "vaccine" tech to get pushed. Do you really think the apostles are going to say that? I think in the world we live, it's a reasonable path to take to trust in experts where that expert advice does not contradict the revealed word of God.

We can insist that our leaders should be receiving revelation on everything they do and say -- and from that perspective it might be God allowing these things to play out for his own reasons, and the leaders are just interpreting that as "vaccine = good". The church may very well be coopted by rubbing shoulders in "respectable" society of various "human rights" organizations and agendas that seek to manipulate good intentions for the gain of secret combinations. But the alternate solution -- for the church to completely withdrawal and have no further influence and let those organizations run around and do exactly what they are doing without the church aware and playing a mitigating factor where it can is a worse option.

It's clear the Lord isn't baring his arm yet to throw down the secret combinations. Why do we expect the church to stand up and fight against it if the Lord has not asked us to?

All of this just comes down to some people putting more faith in their own perspective than trusting in God through his servants. None of you that claim to follow Christ over "the church" have really done a good job demonstrating to me a true Christ like character in the way you are approaching this issue. I see all this anger and accusation against virtually everyone that doesn't do what you think should happen. That resembles the other guy more than Christ doesn't it?

Ooo Ooo! Now show us the mental gymnastics that must be employed to justify publically supporting the Respect for Marriage act by the 15 prophets, seers, and revelators ... you know, the law that legalizes homosexual marriage in the Promised Land.

*gets out his popcorn*

[Reluctant Watchman]

Imagine calling that product safe and effective, a godsend, the miracle we prayed for, and the ONLY way to end the pandemic. Imagine mandating it for almost all young men and young women who want to serve missions and go to a church college. Yeah, just imagine that.

The response to this is that the rest of the world required it to leave the house, cross borders, go to stores.

That being said, I certainly would have been happy if the church said, "No one can be sure of the long term effects of this, so consult your doctor and prayerfully decide for yourself. In the meantime, church remains canceled wherever there are vaccine or social distancing requirements, and in- person missionary efforts are likewise curtailed. We petition governments to safely permit the free exercise of religions gatherings everywhere. "

But does anyone think that would accomplish anything? The hesitant would still hesitate. The conformist would still be angry about the church not conforming. The church would get attacked as antiscience and dangerous. The hard core anti govt zealots might be even more emboldened to protest and draw down wrath on our church and members. Those who were hesitant but conformed revealed they trust the prophet more than their own prompting or wisdom -- which could be to their credit or reveal they are manipulated by peer pressure.

Myself, early on, I felt skeptical but thought I'd likely get the vaccine after 10 months, but then I got covid and shrugged it off and also saw all the early heart issues and figured I have better immunity and don't need to add to the risk. I made my own decisions.

I don't know why people are so upset about this issue from the church perspective. The Lord had very little to say about a tyranny oppressing his people that would literally crucify him and his followers. He even suggested they pay taxes to support it and they do more than whatever the soldiers asked of them. I have no beef with President Nelson et al. Some of us need to get the bitterness out of their heart.

We will all die as part of the plan. Obviously, be wise and make your own choices. We have far more to blame Trump or Biden for in our lives, but I don't live my life obsessed over it.

I would suggest reading the entire standard works for a more accurate understanding of our Lord. In the D&C he seems to be against tyranny. He says slavery is not right and that the Constitution was inspired. In the Book of Mormon they have a system of judges and popular votes for their government, instead of kings. And the Lord was not happy about them destroying their system of government and breaking up into tribes before he came to visit them in 3rd Nephi. In the Old Testament he gives his people Moses to lead them out of slavery. I would say he’s a proponent of liberty. Yes at times we are stuck, like the people in the Book of Mormon who were enslaved and had burdens put on their backs. But eventually they escaped that tyranny too. The Book of Mormon is very pro freedom actually. And I’m sure the Lord is fine with people being against something that sounds an awful lot like the mark of the beast in the book of Revelation.

Thank you for referencing modern revelation. I'm thankful for it. Do you think everything that was done in Joseph Smith's time was the "right" way to do it? Because calling out your neighbors as sinners and letting them know God will come and throw down their false beliefs, etc. seemed to make the church members a lot of enemies. The church was driven from city to city, if you recall; and the Lord didn't come and save the day, but told them they were themselves not living the gospel properly in at least one case.

I think having leaders who are wise as serpents and harmless as doves is important. Is there a cost? Yes, a real one. Is there a cost to the church rising up? Yes, certainly. It's the age old debate of having the enemies code cracked -- do you reveal the fact that you've cracked the code and lose your advantage? Or play along and try to mitigate the cost, but some people really will suffer as a result.

I'm not saying that's a perfect parallel and you guys can get all upset about a godsend language. Whatever. Again, the Savior was not solving the saints problems with tyranny in Joseph's time, he didn't solve them in the Roman's time, and I hope we can all agree that all of us are better off now than they were in Joseph's time or in Peter's time.

Don't get me wrong, it's obvious to pretty much everyone on this forum that covid was an excuse for this "vaccine" tech to get pushed. Do you really think the apostles are going to say that? I think in the world we live, it's a reasonable path to take to trust in experts where that expert advice does not contradict the revealed word of God.

We can insist that our leaders should be receiving revelation on everything they do and say -- and from that perspective it might be God allowing these things to play out for his own reasons, and the leaders are just interpreting that as "vaccine = good". The church may very well be coopted by rubbing shoulders in "respectable" society of various "human rights" organizations and agendas that seek to manipulate good intentions for the gain of secret combinations. But the alternate solution -- for the church to completely withdrawal and have no further influence and let those organizations run around and do exactly what they are doing without the church aware and playing a mitigating factor where it can is a worse option.

It's clear the Lord isn't baring his arm yet to throw down the secret combinations. Why do we expect the church to stand up and fight against it if the Lord has not asked us to?

All of this just comes down to some people putting more faith in their own perspective than trusting in God through his servants. None of you that claim to follow Christ over "the church" have really done a good job demonstrating to me a true Christ like character in the way you are approaching this issue. I see all this anger and accusation against virtually everyone that doesn't do what you think should happen. That resembles the other guy more than Christ doesn't it?

Do you honestly believe what you just said? I do agree with you on one point, they are serpents and speak with forked tongue.

And your last paragraph, the Lord told us NOT to place our trust in man, calling out prophets, seers, and revelators, specifically in JST Mark 9. The Lord never, ever, told us to trust the shepherds of the church if they stray from His gospel.

Christ taught us to “pluck out” those who do transgress and allow them to go to hell. One thing I think you don’t see here is the endless hours people have spent in trying to patiently talk with church leaders about their concerns, only to get called to repentance for not placing their trust in the arm of flesh. It’s a satanic doctrine.

[Momma J]

I would suggest reading the entire standard works for a more accurate understanding of our Lord. In the D&C he seems to be against tyranny. He says slavery is not right and that the Constitution was inspired. In the Book of Mormon they have a system of judges and popular votes for their government, instead of kings. And the Lord was not happy about them destroying their system of government and breaking up into tribes before he came to visit them in 3rd Nephi. In the Old Testament he gives his people Moses to lead them out of slavery. I would say he’s a proponent of liberty. Yes at times we are stuck, like the people in the Book of Mormon who were enslaved and had burdens put on their backs. But eventually they escaped that tyranny too. The Book of Mormon is very pro freedom actually. And I’m sure the Lord is fine with people being against something that sounds an awful lot like the mark of the beast in the book of Revelation.

Thank you for referencing modern revelation. I'm thankful for it. Do you think everything that was done in Joseph Smith's time was the "right" way to do it? Because calling out your neighbors as sinners and letting them know God will come and throw down their false beliefs, etc. seemed to make the church members a lot of enemies. The church was driven from city to city, if you recall; and the Lord didn't come and save the day, but told them they were themselves not living the gospel properly in at least one case.

I think having leaders who are wise as serpents and harmless as doves is important. Is there a cost? Yes, a real one. Is there a cost to the church rising up? Yes, certainly. It's the age old debate of having the enemies code cracked -- do you reveal the fact that you've cracked the code and lose your advantage? Or play along and try to mitigate the cost, but some people really will suffer as a result.

I'm not saying that's a perfect parallel and you guys can get all upset about a godsend language. Whatever. Again, the Savior was not solving the saints problems with tyranny in Joseph's time, he didn't solve them in the Roman's time, and I hope we can all agree that all of us are better off now than they were in Joseph's time or in Peter's time.

Don't get me wrong, it's obvious to pretty much everyone on this forum that covid was an excuse for this "vaccine" tech to get pushed. Do you really think the apostles are going to say that? I think in the world we live, it's a reasonable path to take to trust in experts where that expert advice does not contradict the revealed word of God.

We can insist that our leaders should be receiving revelation on everything they do and say -- and from that perspective it might be God allowing these things to play out for his own reasons, and the leaders are just interpreting that as "vaccine = good". The church may very well be coopted by rubbing shoulders in "respectable" society of various "human rights" organizations and agendas that seek to manipulate good intentions for the gain of secret combinations. But the alternate solution -- for the church to completely withdrawal and have no further influence and let those organizations run around and do exactly what they are doing without the church aware and playing a mitigating factor where it can is a worse option.

It's clear the Lord isn't baring his arm yet to throw down the secret combinations. Why do we expect the church to stand up and fight against it if the Lord has not asked us to?

All of this just comes down to some people putting more faith in their own perspective than trusting in God through his servants. None of you that claim to follow Christ over "the church" have really done a good job demonstrating to me a true Christ like character in the way you are approaching this issue. I see all this anger and accusation against virtually everyone that doesn't do what you think should happen. That resembles the other guy more than Christ doesn't it?

...
Why do you say the Lord has not asked us to fight against secret combinations? He most certainly did, through Moroni. He told us to awaken to our awful situation and not allow the secret combinations to get above us.
...
I don’t think I’ve said or done anything particularly unChristlike in this discussion. If I have, please let me know. I do know that I don’t have great powers of persuasion, so maybe I should just roll over and let it all unfold. But I am the type to dream the impossible dream I suppose. So here I am, discussing on a freedom forum, freedom.
...

I am awake. I think many are, many are not. I'm not sure If the solution is to call out the organizations that literally have the power to destroy the world -- maybe it will be at some point. Maybe the Lord is saddened that we aren't. Maybe he'd fight our battles for us if we did so -- but I know he didn't in Joseph's time. So calling them out, bringing down hell's fury on the church, and then telling the church members it happened to their children because they are doing a bad job, seems like a worse alternative. I think the other alternative -- which is what they are largely doing -- pointing to Christ telling people to follow him is about as good as we can get. I think there's a lot to be said for putting focus there. I think we can go around and around on the vaccine advice, but let's be clear, it's not a test of fellowship, it's not a temple recommend question, we aren't harping on it over and over again, and to the extent that Elder Renlund felt compelled to speak on it, was likely because we have so many in the church fighting on this issue. If we just listed to the "urging" of that August letter you cited, and those who wanted to do so did so, and those who didn't, didn't, and we all moved on, no big deal. That's my take on it. I'm not focused on that, but where appropriate I do bring up the obvious issues with the vaccine and I'm more familiar than most.

Regarding unChristlike behavior, I agree, you have not. I did not intend that comment to be about you as I was absolutely sincere in that you specifically brought it back to the scriptures and revelation and NOT making random comments about the Preside of the Corporation of the... or the bizarre sex cult claims that someone made earlier. What am I supposed to do with an anonymous angry comment online against someone who preaches of Christ and person righteousness and has spent his entire life doing so, when he really could have retired years ago and lived a life of debauchery however he wanted, if that's what he wanted. But no, the guy married an old single lady and gave her the respect and hope she'd waited for her entire life. He's the bad guy? No... at worst, President Nelson is someone who's voice is so sweetly calculated that it causes me to doze off when I listen to him because he speaks far too relaxing and patient of a tone to hold my attention if I stayed up a bit late the night before.

True Prophets of the Lord should not be using various shades of grey to soften the lies, or truths. The TRUTH is not confusing. Nor is it blurred. Telling the masses that the vax is a "Godsend" is worse than a little untruth. Lying to the members and then blurring the lie, by telling them to pray for their own revelation... is just WRONG.

Basically, stating that "God" sent (hence GODSEND) the vax. If you do not believe me then pray. This leaves people confused as to whether they are apostate for following the promptings of the HG rather than the words of the Prophet (who will never lead us astray). They now doubt that the promptings are really from the HG... This is the bigger issue in my book.

The prophet has led many to doubt their own ability to communicate with the Lord!

[Reluctant Watchman]

The prophet has led many to doubt their own ability to communicate with the Lord!

That, IMO, is one of the greatest travesties in all of this. By telling lies and half truths, the church is actually pushing people away from Christ. But only those who are willing to approach what is taught with open eyes will truly see what is happening. Hence why false traditions and beliefs are so hard to overcome and those buried by generations of abuse may never truly see.

I told my kids last night, the philosophy that a man could never lead you astray strikes at the heart of the most sacred and fundamental truth that Elohim has placed in us, our ability to communicate with Heaven. That is why the “cannot lead astray” philosophy is so evil. It literally divides us against the Godhead.

[Fight for the right]

I would suggest reading the entire standard works for a more accurate understanding of our Lord. In the D&C he seems to be against tyranny. He says slavery is not right and that the Constitution was inspired. In the Book of Mormon they have a system of judges and popular votes for their government, instead of kings. And the Lord was not happy about them destroying their system of government and breaking up into tribes before he came to visit them in 3rd Nephi. In the Old Testament he gives his people Moses to lead them out of slavery. I would say he’s a proponent of liberty. Yes at times we are stuck, like the people in the Book of Mormon who were enslaved and had burdens put on their backs. But eventually they escaped that tyranny too. The Book of Mormon is very pro freedom actually. And I’m sure the Lord is fine with people being against something that sounds an awful lot like the mark of the beast in the book of Revelation.

Thank you for referencing modern revelation. I'm thankful for it. Do you think everything that was done in Joseph Smith's time was the "right" way to do it? Because calling out your neighbors as sinners and letting them know God will come and throw down their false beliefs, etc. seemed to make the church members a lot of enemies. The church was driven from city to city, if you recall; and the Lord didn't come and save the day, but told them they were themselves not living the gospel properly in at least one case.

I think having leaders who are wise as serpents and harmless as doves is important. Is there a cost? Yes, a real one. Is there a cost to the church rising up? Yes, certainly. It's the age old debate of having the enemies code cracked -- do you reveal the fact that you've cracked the code and lose your advantage? Or play along and try to mitigate the cost, but some people really will suffer as a result.

I'm not saying that's a perfect parallel and you guys can get all upset about a godsend language. Whatever. Again, the Savior was not solving the saints problems with tyranny in Joseph's time, he didn't solve them in the Roman's time, and I hope we can all agree that all of us are better off now than they were in Joseph's time or in Peter's time.

Don't get me wrong, it's obvious to pretty much everyone on this forum that covid was an excuse for this "vaccine" tech to get pushed. Do you really think the apostles are going to say that? I think in the world we live, it's a reasonable path to take to trust in experts where that expert advice does not contradict the revealed word of God.

We can insist that our leaders should be receiving revelation on everything they do and say -- and from that perspective it might be God allowing these things to play out for his own reasons, and the leaders are just interpreting that as "vaccine = good". The church may very well be coopted by rubbing shoulders in "respectable" society of various "human rights" organizations and agendas that seek to manipulate good intentions for the gain of secret combinations. But the alternate solution -- for the church to completely withdrawal and have no further influence and let those organizations run around and do exactly what they are doing without the church aware and playing a mitigating factor where it can is a worse option.

It's clear the Lord isn't baring his arm yet to throw down the secret combinations. Why do we expect the church to stand up and fight against it if the Lord has not asked us to?

All of this just comes down to some people putting more faith in their own perspective than trusting in God through his servants. None of you that claim to follow Christ over "the church" have really done a good job demonstrating to me a true Christ like character in the way you are approaching this issue. I see all this anger and accusation against virtually everyone that doesn't do what you think should happen. That resembles the other guy more than Christ doesn't it?

...
Why do you say the Lord has not asked us to fight against secret combinations? He most certainly did, through Moroni. He told us to awaken to our awful situation and not allow the secret combinations to get above us.
...
I don’t think I’ve said or done anything particularly unChristlike in this discussion. If I have, please let me know. I do know that I don’t have great powers of persuasion, so maybe I should just roll over and let it all unfold. But I am the type to dream the impossible dream I suppose. So here I am, discussing on a freedom forum, freedom.
...

I am awake. I think many are, many are not. I'm not sure If the solution is to call out the organizations that literally have the power to destroy the world -- maybe it will be at some point. Maybe the Lord is saddened that we aren't. Maybe he'd fight our battles for us if we did so -- but I know he didn't in Joseph's time. So calling them out, bringing down hell's fury on the church, and then telling the church members it happened to their children because they are doing a bad job, seems like a worse alternative. I think the other alternative -- which is what they are largely doing -- pointing to Christ telling people to follow him is about as good as we can get. I think there's a lot to be said for putting focus there. I think we can go around and around on the vaccine advice, but let's be clear, it's not a test of fellowship, it's not a temple recommend question, we aren't harping on it over and over again, and to the extent that Elder Renlund felt compelled to speak on it, was likely because we have so many in the church fighting on this issue. If we just listed to the "urging" of that August letter you cited, and those who wanted to do so did so, and those who didn't, didn't, and we all moved on, no big deal. That's my take on it. I'm not focused on that, but where appropriate I do bring up the obvious issues with the vaccine and I'm more familiar than most.

Regarding unChristlike behavior, I agree, you have not. I did not intend that comment to be about you as I was absolutely sincere in that you specifically brought it back to the scriptures and revelation and NOT making random comments about the Preside of the Corporation of the... or the bizarre sex cult claims that someone made earlier. What am I supposed to do with an anonymous angry comment online against someone who preaches of Christ and person righteousness and has spent his entire life doing so, when he really could have retired years ago and lived a life of debauchery however he wanted, if that's what he wanted. But no, the guy married an old single lady and gave her the respect and hope she'd waited for her entire life. He's the bad guy? No... at worst, President Nelson is someone who's voice is so sweetly calculated that it causes me to doze off when I listen to him because he speaks far too relaxing and patient of a tone to hold my attention if I stayed up a bit late the night before.

[Fight for the right]

I would suggest reading the entire standard works for a more accurate understanding of our Lord. In the D&C he seems to be against tyranny. He says slavery is not right and that the Constitution was inspired. In the Book of Mormon they have a system of judges and popular votes for their government, instead of kings. And the Lord was not happy about them destroying their system of government and breaking up into tribes before he came to visit them in 3rd Nephi. In the Old Testament he gives his people Moses to lead them out of slavery. I would say he’s a proponent of liberty. Yes at times we are stuck, like the people in the Book of Mormon who were enslaved and had burdens put on their backs. But eventually they escaped that tyranny too. The Book of Mormon is very pro freedom actually. And I’m sure the Lord is fine with people being against something that sounds an awful lot like the mark of the beast in the book of Revelation.

Thank you for referencing modern revelation. I'm thankful for it. Do you think everything that was done in Joseph Smith's time was the "right" way to do it? Because calling out your neighbors as sinners and letting them know God will come and throw down their false beliefs, etc. seemed to make the church members a lot of enemies. The church was driven from city to city, if you recall; and the Lord didn't come and save the day, but told them they were themselves not living the gospel properly in at least one case.

I think having leaders who are wise as serpents and harmless as doves is important. Is there a cost? Yes, a real one. Is there a cost to the church rising up? Yes, certainly. It's the age old debate of having the enemies code cracked -- do you reveal the fact that you've cracked the code and lose your advantage? Or play along and try to mitigate the cost, but some people really will suffer as a result.

I'm not saying that's a perfect parallel and you guys can get all upset about a godsend language. Whatever. Again, the Savior was not solving the saints problems with tyranny in Joseph's time, he didn't solve them in the Roman's time, and I hope we can all agree that all of us are better off now than they were in Joseph's time or in Peter's time.

Don't get me wrong, it's obvious to pretty much everyone on this forum that covid was an excuse for this "vaccine" tech to get pushed. Do you really think the apostles are going to say that? I think in the world we live, it's a reasonable path to take to trust in experts where that expert advice does not contradict the revealed word of God.

We can insist that our leaders should be receiving revelation on everything they do and say -- and from that perspective it might be God allowing these things to play out for his own reasons, and the leaders are just interpreting that as "vaccine = good". The church may very well be coopted by rubbing shoulders in "respectable" society of various "human rights" organizations and agendas that seek to manipulate good intentions for the gain of secret combinations. But the alternate solution -- for the church to completely withdrawal and have no further influence and let those organizations run around and do exactly what they are doing without the church aware and playing a mitigating factor where it can is a worse option.

It's clear the Lord isn't baring his arm yet to throw down the secret combinations. Why do we expect the church to stand up and fight against it if the Lord has not asked us to?

All of this just comes down to some people putting more faith in their own perspective than trusting in God through his servants. None of you that claim to follow Christ over "the church" have really done a good job demonstrating to me a true Christ like character in the way you are approaching this issue. I see all this anger and accusation against virtually everyone that doesn't do what you think should happen. That resembles the other guy more than Christ doesn't it?

...
Why do you say the Lord has not asked us to fight against secret combinations? He most certainly did, through Moroni. He told us to awaken to our awful situation and not allow the secret combinations to get above us.
...
I don’t think I’ve said or done anything particularly unChristlike in this discussion. If I have, please let me know. I do know that I don’t have great powers of persuasion, so maybe I should just roll over and let it all unfold. But I am the type to dream the impossible dream I suppose. So here I am, discussing on a freedom forum, freedom.
...

I am awake. I think many are, many are not. I'm not sure If the solution is to call out the organizations that literally have the power to destroy the world -- maybe it will be at some point. Maybe the Lord is saddened that we aren't. Maybe he'd fight our battles for us if we did so -- but I know he didn't in Joseph's time. So calling them out, bringing down hell's fury on the church, and then telling the church members it happened to their children because they are doing a bad job, seems like a worse alternative. I think the other alternative -- which is what they are largely doing -- pointing to Christ telling people to follow him is about as good as we can get. I think there's a lot to be said for putting focus there. I think we can go around and around on the vaccine advice, but let's be clear, it's not a test of fellowship, it's not a temple recommend question, we aren't harping on it over and over again, and to the extent that Elder Renlund felt compelled to speak on it, was likely because we have so many in the church fighting on this issue. If we just listed to the "urging" of that August letter you cited, and those who wanted to do so did so, and those who didn't, didn't, and we all moved on, no big deal. That's my take on it. I'm not focused on that, but where appropriate I do bring up the obvious issues with the vaccine and I'm more familiar than most.

Regarding unChristlike behavior, I agree, you have not. I did not intend that comment to be about you as I was absolutely sincere in that you specifically brought it back to the scriptures and revelation and NOT making random comments about the Preside of the Corporation of the... or the bizarre sex cult claims that someone made earlier. What am I supposed to do with an anonymous angry comment online against someone who preaches of Christ and person righteousness and has spent his entire life doing so, when he really could have retired years ago and lived a life of debauchery however he wanted, if that's what he wanted. But no, the guy married an old single lady and gave her the respect and hope she'd waited for her entire life. He's the bad guy? No... at worst, President Nelson is someone who's voice is so sweetly calculated that it causes me to doze off when I listen to him because he speaks far too relaxing and patient of a tone to hold my attention if I stayed up a bit late the night before.

I didn't read anywhere where you said Nelson speaks with the power of the Holy Spirit. Sweet voices do not cut it for me. The Spirit does. The
Leadership of Christ's church is trying to much to be a friend of the world. A FRIEND OF THE WORLD IS AN ENEMY OF GOD. Christ is not speaking sweetly at present. Fire, earthquake, famine,tempest, drought to name a few things that are not sweet.

[InfoWarrior82]

The prophet has led many to doubt their own ability to communicate with the Lord!

That, IMO, is one of the greatest travesties in all of this. By telling lies and half truths, the church is actually pushing people away from Christ. But only those who are willing to approach what is taught with open eyes. Hence why false traditions and beliefs are so hard to overcome and those buried by generations of abuse may never truly see.

I told my kids last night, the philosophy that a man could never lead you astray strikes at the heart of the most sacred and fundamental truth that Elohim has placed in us, our ability to communicate with Heaven. That is why the “cannot lead astray” philosophy is so evil. It literally divides us against the Godhead.

Many who spoke with their church leaders were told that they were being led astray by Satan because they received contrary personal revelation to the president. It was basically blasphemy to state very clearly to a Bishop that the Lord told them that president Nelson was dead wrong.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Thank you for referencing modern revelation. I'm thankful for it. Do you think everything that was done in Joseph Smith's time was the "right" way to do it? Because calling out your neighbors as sinners and letting them know God will come and throw down their false beliefs, etc. seemed to make the church members a lot of enemies. The church was driven from city to city, if you recall; and the Lord didn't come and save the day, but told them they were themselves not living the gospel properly in at least one case.

I think having leaders who are wise as serpents and harmless as doves is important. Is there a cost? Yes, a real one. Is there a cost to the church rising up? Yes, certainly. It's the age old debate of having the enemies code cracked -- do you reveal the fact that you've cracked the code and lose your advantage? Or play along and try to mitigate the cost, but some people really will suffer as a result.

I'm not saying that's a perfect parallel and you guys can get all upset about a godsend language. Whatever. Again, the Savior was not solving the saints problems with tyranny in Joseph's time, he didn't solve them in the Roman's time, and I hope we can all agree that all of us are better off now than they were in Joseph's time or in Peter's time.

Don't get me wrong, it's obvious to pretty much everyone on this forum that covid was an excuse for this "vaccine" tech to get pushed. Do you really think the apostles are going to say that? I think in the world we live, it's a reasonable path to take to trust in experts where that expert advice does not contradict the revealed word of God.

We can insist that our leaders should be receiving revelation on everything they do and say -- and from that perspective it might be God allowing these things to play out for his own reasons, and the leaders are just interpreting that as "vaccine = good". The church may very well be coopted by rubbing shoulders in "respectable" society of various "human rights" organizations and agendas that seek to manipulate good intentions for the gain of secret combinations. But the alternate solution -- for the church to completely withdrawal and have no further influence and let those organizations run around and do exactly what they are doing without the church aware and playing a mitigating factor where it can is a worse option.

It's clear the Lord isn't baring his arm yet to throw down the secret combinations. Why do we expect the church to stand up and fight against it if the Lord has not asked us to?

All of this just comes down to some people putting more faith in their own perspective than trusting in God through his servants. None of you that claim to follow Christ over "the church" have really done a good job demonstrating to me a true Christ like character in the way you are approaching this issue. I see all this anger and accusation against virtually everyone that doesn't do what you think should happen. That resembles the other guy more than Christ doesn't it?

...
Why do you say the Lord has not asked us to fight against secret combinations? He most certainly did, through Moroni. He told us to awaken to our awful situation and not allow the secret combinations to get above us.
...
I don’t think I’ve said or done anything particularly unChristlike in this discussion. If I have, please let me know. I do know that I don’t have great powers of persuasion, so maybe I should just roll over and let it all unfold. But I am the type to dream the impossible dream I suppose. So here I am, discussing on a freedom forum, freedom.
...

I am awake. I think many are, many are not. I'm not sure If the solution is to call out the organizations that literally have the power to destroy the world -- maybe it will be at some point. Maybe the Lord is saddened that we aren't. Maybe he'd fight our battles for us if we did so -- but I know he didn't in Joseph's time. So calling them out, bringing down hell's fury on the church, and then telling the church members it happened to their children because they are doing a bad job, seems like a worse alternative. I think the other alternative -- which is what they are largely doing -- pointing to Christ telling people to follow him is about as good as we can get. I think there's a lot to be said for putting focus there. I think we can go around and around on the vaccine advice, but let's be clear, it's not a test of fellowship, it's not a temple recommend question, we aren't harping on it over and over again, and to the extent that Elder Renlund felt compelled to speak on it, was likely because we have so many in the church fighting on this issue. If we just listed to the "urging" of that August letter you cited, and those who wanted to do so did so, and those who didn't, didn't, and we all moved on, no big deal. That's my take on it. I'm not focused on that, but where appropriate I do bring up the obvious issues with the vaccine and I'm more familiar than most.

Regarding unChristlike behavior, I agree, you have not. I did not intend that comment to be about you as I was absolutely sincere in that you specifically brought it back to the scriptures and revelation and NOT making random comments about the Preside of the Corporation of the... or the bizarre sex cult claims that someone made earlier. What am I supposed to do with an anonymous angry comment online against someone who preaches of Christ and person righteousness and has spent his entire life doing so, when he really could have retired years ago and lived a life of debauchery however he wanted, if that's what he wanted. But no, the guy married an old single lady and gave her the respect and hope she'd waited for her entire life. He's the bad guy? No... at worst, President Nelson is someone who's voice is so sweetly calculated that it causes me to doze off when I listen to him because he speaks far too relaxing and patient of a tone to hold my attention if I stayed up a bit late the night before.

These people are not who you think they are. You’ve painted a picture of what they’ve shown you in their outward expressions, but it goes much deeper than that. For most members, they are unwilling to even entertain the idea that these people are other than what they have told us they are.

The simple fact that Nelson preaches philosophies that directly contradict the gospel of Christ is sufficient for me to step back and evaluate his fruits. For this is a fruit, to preach false doctrine is rotten. If you dig deeper I think members would be shocked to see the other side. And I don’t believe every claim that is made, but when you start to connect the dots, the tapestry that is revealed is crazy. So much so that most members either immediately reject it, or they lose all faith in God.

[Fight for the right]

Thank you for referencing modern revelation. I'm thankful for it. Do you think everything that was done in Joseph Smith's time was the "right" way to do it? Because calling out your neighbors as sinners and letting them know God will come and throw down their false beliefs, etc. seemed to make the church members a lot of enemies. The church was driven from city to city, if you recall; and the Lord didn't come and save the day, but told them they were themselves not living the gospel properly in at least one case.

I think having leaders who are wise as serpents and harmless as doves is important. Is there a cost? Yes, a real one. Is there a cost to the church rising up? Yes, certainly. It's the age old debate of having the enemies code cracked -- do you reveal the fact that you've cracked the code and lose your advantage? Or play along and try to mitigate the cost, but some people really will suffer as a result.

I'm not saying that's a perfect parallel and you guys can get all upset about a godsend language. Whatever. Again, the Savior was not solving the saints problems with tyranny in Joseph's time, he didn't solve them in the Roman's time, and I hope we can all agree that all of us are better off now than they were in Joseph's time or in Peter's time.

Don't get me wrong, it's obvious to pretty much everyone on this forum that covid was an excuse for this "vaccine" tech to get pushed. Do you really think the apostles are going to say that? I think in the world we live, it's a reasonable path to take to trust in experts where that expert advice does not contradict the revealed word of God.

We can insist that our leaders should be receiving revelation on everything they do and say -- and from that perspective it might be God allowing these things to play out for his own reasons, and the leaders are just interpreting that as "vaccine = good". The church may very well be coopted by rubbing shoulders in "respectable" society of various "human rights" organizations and agendas that seek to manipulate good intentions for the gain of secret combinations. But the alternate solution -- for the church to completely withdrawal and have no further influence and let those organizations run around and do exactly what they are doing without the church aware and playing a mitigating factor where it can is a worse option.

It's clear the Lord isn't baring his arm yet to throw down the secret combinations. Why do we expect the church to stand up and fight against it if the Lord has not asked us to?

All of this just comes down to some people putting more faith in their own perspective than trusting in God through his servants. None of you that claim to follow Christ over "the church" have really done a good job demonstrating to me a true Christ like character in the way you are approaching this issue. I see all this anger and accusation against virtually everyone that doesn't do what you think should happen. That resembles the other guy more than Christ doesn't it?

...
Why do you say the Lord has not asked us to fight against secret combinations? He most certainly did, through Moroni. He told us to awaken to our awful situation and not allow the secret combinations to get above us.
...
I don’t think I’ve said or done anything particularly unChristlike in this discussion. If I have, please let me know. I do know that I don’t have great powers of persuasion, so maybe I should just roll over and let it all unfold. But I am the type to dream the impossible dream I suppose. So here I am, discussing on a freedom forum, freedom.
...

I am awake. I think many are, many are not. I'm not sure If the solution is to call out the organizations that literally have the power to destroy the world -- maybe it will be at some point. Maybe the Lord is saddened that we aren't. Maybe he'd fight our battles for us if we did so -- but I know he didn't in Joseph's time. So calling them out, bringing down hell's fury on the church, and then telling the church members it happened to their children because they are doing a bad job, seems like a worse alternative. I think the other alternative -- which is what they are largely doing -- pointing to Christ telling people to follow him is about as good as we can get. I think there's a lot to be said for putting focus there. I think we can go around and around on the vaccine advice, but let's be clear, it's not a test of fellowship, it's not a temple recommend question, we aren't harping on it over and over again, and to the extent that Elder Renlund felt compelled to speak on it, was likely because we have so many in the church fighting on this issue. If we just listed to the "urging" of that August letter you cited, and those who wanted to do so did so, and those who didn't, didn't, and we all moved on, no big deal. That's my take on it. I'm not focused on that, but where appropriate I do bring up the obvious issues with the vaccine and I'm more familiar than most.

Regarding unChristlike behavior, I agree, you have not. I did not intend that comment to be about you as I was absolutely sincere in that you specifically brought it back to the scriptures and revelation and NOT making random comments about the Preside of the Corporation of the... or the bizarre sex cult claims that someone made earlier. What am I supposed to do with an anonymous angry comment online against someone who preaches of Christ and person righteousness and has spent his entire life doing so, when he really could have retired years ago and lived a life of debauchery however he wanted, if that's what he wanted. But no, the guy married an old single lady and gave her the respect and hope she'd waited for her entire life. He's the bad guy? No... at worst, President Nelson is someone who's voice is so sweetly calculated that it causes me to doze off when I listen to him because he speaks far too relaxing and patient of a tone to hold my attention if I stayed up a bit late the night before.

I didn't read anywhere where you said Nelson speaks with the power of the Holy Spirit. Sweet voices do not cut it for me. The Spirit does. The
Leadership of Christ's church is trying to much to be a friend of the world. A FRIEND OF THE WORLD IS AN ENEMY OF GOD. Christ is not speaking sweetly at present. Fire, earthquake, famine,tempest, drought to name a few things that are not sweet.

Quote I read this morning. YOU CANNOT CHANGE A WORLD YOU RESEMBLE.

[Fred]

I suppose I was a little harsh. It has only been known for 10 years or so that shots cause autism. Lot's of people suspected it before that, but it wasn't proven.

A quick look at Webster's dictionary tells us that a corona virus, like the common cold, flu, or covid, mutates rapidly and so a shot can never be effective. But even if we suppose that people cared not what the virus actually is and simply decided to get a shot, it is common knowledge that no shot is anything but experimental for the first 5 years minimum. Many drugs have been taken off the market even after 5 years for not being safe. That makes the action of getting the shot hap hazard at best.

When a person of supposed authority, such as a church leader, tells the outright lie that the shot is a godsend, that is similar to a ten year old trusting her father just before he rapes her. That is an extreme abuse of power. I was wrong in calling the victims gullible. They were innocent as children and metaphorically raped.

As the OP says, the cat is now out of the bag. People getting the shot today, can not claim ignorance.

[Being There]

[Fight for the right]

Thank you for referencing modern revelation. I'm thankful for it. Do you think everything that was done in Joseph Smith's time was the "right" way to do it? Because calling out your neighbors as sinners and letting them know God will come and throw down their false beliefs, etc. seemed to make the church members a lot of enemies. The church was driven from city to city, if you recall; and the Lord didn't come and save the day, but told them they were themselves not living the gospel properly in at least one case.

I think having leaders who are wise as serpents and harmless as doves is important. Is there a cost? Yes, a real one. Is there a cost to the church rising up? Yes, certainly. It's the age old debate of having the enemies code cracked -- do you reveal the fact that you've cracked the code and lose your advantage? Or play along and try to mitigate the cost, but some people really will suffer as a result.

I'm not saying that's a perfect parallel and you guys can get all upset about a godsend language. Whatever. Again, the Savior was not solving the saints problems with tyranny in Joseph's time, he didn't solve them in the Roman's time, and I hope we can all agree that all of us are better off now than they were in Joseph's time or in Peter's time.

Don't get me wrong, it's obvious to pretty much everyone on this forum that covid was an excuse for this "vaccine" tech to get pushed. Do you really think the apostles are going to say that? I think in the world we live, it's a reasonable path to take to trust in experts where that expert advice does not contradict the revealed word of God.

We can insist that our leaders should be receiving revelation on everything they do and say -- and from that perspective it might be God allowing these things to play out for his own reasons, and the leaders are just interpreting that as "vaccine = good". The church may very well be coopted by rubbing shoulders in "respectable" society of various "human rights" organizations and agendas that seek to manipulate good intentions for the gain of secret combinations. But the alternate solution -- for the church to completely withdrawal and have no further influence and let those organizations run around and do exactly what they are doing without the church aware and playing a mitigating factor where it can is a worse option.

It's clear the Lord isn't baring his arm yet to throw down the secret combinations. Why do we expect the church to stand up and fight against it if the Lord has not asked us to?

All of this just comes down to some people putting more faith in their own perspective than trusting in God through his servants. None of you that claim to follow Christ over "the church" have really done a good job demonstrating to me a true Christ like character in the way you are approaching this issue. I see all this anger and accusation against virtually everyone that doesn't do what you think should happen. That resembles the other guy more than Christ doesn't it?

...
Why do you say the Lord has not asked us to fight against secret combinations? He most certainly did, through Moroni. He told us to awaken to our awful situation and not allow the secret combinations to get above us.
...
I don’t think I’ve said or done anything particularly unChristlike in this discussion. If I have, please let me know. I do know that I don’t have great powers of persuasion, so maybe I should just roll over and let it all unfold. But I am the type to dream the impossible dream I suppose. So here I am, discussing on a freedom forum, freedom.
...

I am awake. I think many are, many are not. I'm not sure If the solution is to call out the organizations that literally have the power to destroy the world -- maybe it will be at some point. Maybe the Lord is saddened that we aren't. Maybe he'd fight our battles for us if we did so -- but I know he didn't in Joseph's time. So calling them out, bringing down hell's fury on the church, and then telling the church members it happened to their children because they are doing a bad job, seems like a worse alternative. I think the other alternative -- which is what they are largely doing -- pointing to Christ telling people to follow him is about as good as we can get. I think there's a lot to be said for putting focus there. I think we can go around and around on the vaccine advice, but let's be clear, it's not a test of fellowship, it's not a temple recommend question, we aren't harping on it over and over again, and to the extent that Elder Renlund felt compelled to speak on it, was likely because we have so many in the church fighting on this issue. If we just listed to the "urging" of that August letter you cited, and those who wanted to do so did so, and those who didn't, didn't, and we all moved on, no big deal. That's my take on it. I'm not focused on that, but where appropriate I do bring up the obvious issues with the vaccine and I'm more familiar than most.

Regarding unChristlike behavior, I agree, you have not. I did not intend that comment to be about you as I was absolutely sincere in that you specifically brought it back to the scriptures and revelation and NOT making random comments about the Preside of the Corporation of the... or the bizarre sex cult claims that someone made earlier. What am I supposed to do with an anonymous angry comment online against someone who preaches of Christ and person righteousness and has spent his entire life doing so, when he really could have retired years ago and lived a life of debauchery however he wanted, if that's what he wanted. But no, the guy married an old single lady and gave her the respect and hope she'd waited for her entire life. He's the bad guy? No... at worst, President Nelson is someone who's voice is so sweetly calculated that it causes me to doze off when I listen to him because he speaks far too relaxing and patient of a tone to hold my attention if I stayed up a bit late the night before.

I didn't read anywhere where you said Nelson speaks with the power of the Holy Spirit. Sweet voices do not cut it for me. The Spirit does. The
Leadership of Christ's church is trying to much to be a friend of the world. A FRIEND OF THE WORLD IS AN ENEMY OF GOD. Christ is not speaking sweetly at present. Fire, earthquake, famine,tempest, drought to name a few things that are not sweet.

President Benson in one of his talks said I'm not here to tickle your ears. He spoke as a fiery leader.

[Niemand]

At this point I'd almost take Boyd K. Packer back. I wasn't a fan of his during life and he was too authoritarian for my liking, but he certainly didn't just say things to please the world.