Tithing

For discussion of liberty, freedom, government and politics.
silverado
captain of 100
Posts: 614

Re: Tithing

Post by silverado »

iWriteStuff wrote: January 28th, 2023, 8:46 pm
TwochurchesOnly wrote: January 28th, 2023, 8:18 pm
iWriteStuff wrote: January 28th, 2023, 7:16 pm
silverado wrote: January 26th, 2023, 1:40 pm An elderly widow in my ward wants to go to the Temple. But she is having trouble paying tithing. Too many medical expenses and not enough money. Someone suggested that she pay tithing and then ask the Church for assistance. It seems to me there should be a better answer.
Do ya one better. My mother has Parkinson's and is a retired schoolteacher with a pension. Because my father still works, the bishop (who is also her financial advisor - no conflict of interest, right?) told my mother she should just send the whole pension check to the church. You know, for tax write offs. My mother is faithful and believing, so that is what she does.

Fast forward: my mother needs help around the house - help my father can't give her due to his own physical limitations and the fact that he has to work still in order to pay for all the expenses. She asked the church for help and they said, "No, we don't do that sort of thing." But she can't afford to pay for any help because, you guessed it, she's giving the church all her money and my father doesn't have enough to cover both her medical bills and then pay someone else to make sure she makes it to doctor appointments or for help making meals.

The icing in the cake? The church has spent close to a billion dollars in their state over the last year buying up investment properties they don't need with the money old poor people like my sick mother keeps sending them, with nothing but a kick in the pants in return.

I keep hoping the Lord will take care of them, because the church sure won't. The charity there only goes one way.

Now that is so messed up!!!
🤯😳
Gotta be a way to help her see that she needs her pension$$$
The thing about Parkinson's is that it comes with some pretty severe dementia. She can hear me saying she needs to take care of herself with what she has earned by being a school teacher all those years, but it's not really getting through. Besides, why wouldn't she trust the bishop?

smh
It is sad a bishop would take advantage of someone with dementia!

User avatar
iWriteStuff
blithering blabbermouth
Posts: 5523
Location: Sinope
Contact:

Re: Tithing

Post by iWriteStuff »

silverado wrote: January 29th, 2023, 2:03 pm
iWriteStuff wrote: January 28th, 2023, 8:46 pm
TwochurchesOnly wrote: January 28th, 2023, 8:18 pm
iWriteStuff wrote: January 28th, 2023, 7:16 pm

Do ya one better. My mother has Parkinson's and is a retired schoolteacher with a pension. Because my father still works, the bishop (who is also her financial advisor - no conflict of interest, right?) told my mother she should just send the whole pension check to the church. You know, for tax write offs. My mother is faithful and believing, so that is what she does.

Fast forward: my mother needs help around the house - help my father can't give her due to his own physical limitations and the fact that he has to work still in order to pay for all the expenses. She asked the church for help and they said, "No, we don't do that sort of thing." But she can't afford to pay for any help because, you guessed it, she's giving the church all her money and my father doesn't have enough to cover both her medical bills and then pay someone else to make sure she makes it to doctor appointments or for help making meals.

The icing in the cake? The church has spent close to a billion dollars in their state over the last year buying up investment properties they don't need with the money old poor people like my sick mother keeps sending them, with nothing but a kick in the pants in return.

I keep hoping the Lord will take care of them, because the church sure won't. The charity there only goes one way.

Now that is so messed up!!!
🤯😳
Gotta be a way to help her see that she needs her pension$$$
The thing about Parkinson's is that it comes with some pretty severe dementia. She can hear me saying she needs to take care of herself with what she has earned by being a school teacher all those years, but it's not really getting through. Besides, why wouldn't she trust the bishop?

smh
It is sad a bishop would take advantage of someone with dementia!
Doesn't say a lot for his skill as a financial advisor, either. Who would donate $10 to save $1 in taxes? Especially when YOU CAN WRITE OFF MEDICAL EXPENSES.

ugh smh x2

User avatar
Silver Pie
seeker after Christ
Posts: 8989
Location: In the state that doesn't exist

Re: Tithing

Post by Silver Pie »

TheDuke wrote: January 28th, 2023, 8:01 pmBut, sorry the entire world is that way, why should a complex organization like the church be any different?
Sad reflection on a Church that claims to be God's one and only, God's chosen people, that it isn't any different than the world. :(

User avatar
TheDuke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5863
Location: Eastern Sodom Suburbs

Re: Tithing

Post by TheDuke »

Silver Pie wrote: January 29th, 2023, 4:06 pm
TheDuke wrote: January 28th, 2023, 8:01 pmBut, sorry the entire world is that way, why should a complex organization like the church be any different?
Sad reflection on a Church that claims to be God's one and only, God's chosen people, that it isn't any different than the world. :(
Not sure why you say that. We came here to work things out in a telestial world. Not terrestrial, not celestial like back home. Not even normal telestial, the most evil of all of god's creations according to Abraham. And you expect the church to be more organized than when Jesus himself was here. Note the apostles on their own for a couple weeks taught false doctrine that Jesus corrected. Same in LDS church when Joseph was here and they learned directly from him. Moses, David, Samuel, Jacob, Judah, etc.... every one was a bit messed up. And you expect more from the leaders today? Why?

We are here to work out our salvation (and exaltation) not be handed all truth by a bunch of suits in our version of Jerusalem. Frankly, anyone who cannot figure things out doesn't deserve salvation or exaltation. I mean we even see Jesus teaching in parables, so only some can understand. Nephi, Lehi, Alma, all teaching dreams and allegories, stories. Few direct statements.......... why is that? And why should it be different today? :cry:

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15313
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: Tithing

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: January 29th, 2023, 4:54 pm Nephi, Lehi, Alma, all teaching dreams and allegories, stories. Few direct statements....
We must have different scriptures.

User avatar
Silver Pie
seeker after Christ
Posts: 8989
Location: In the state that doesn't exist

Re: Tithing

Post by Silver Pie »

TheDuke wrote: January 29th, 2023, 4:54 pm Not sure why you say that.
It looked to me like you were saying we shouldn't expect a Church that claims to be God's own authorized entity to be any different from any worldly corporation.

I thought the scriptures tell us to be better - more honest, more pure, less focused on wealth and looking good to the world. The exact opposite of corporate entities of today.

User avatar
TheDuke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5863
Location: Eastern Sodom Suburbs

Re: Tithing

Post by TheDuke »

I suppose that is true from the organizational and administrative perspective. What I'm saying is that looking for accuracy, precision and perfection is doomed in failure as it didn't happen in the past.

And to Reluctant: I say we have the same scriptures but I read them as much as possible by spirit. But, I will contend that with any metrics you will find very little volume of doctrine directly spoken in the BoM. It is mostly wars by volume. then stories, like ANL's, Alma's journey away from evil priests, building boats, and lots and lots of nice stories that teach parables. Lehi's dream, Alma's faith seed, etc... Just a fact. But much more doctrine that OT for sure.

User avatar
Silver Pie
seeker after Christ
Posts: 8989
Location: In the state that doesn't exist

Re: Tithing

Post by Silver Pie »

TheDuke wrote: January 29th, 2023, 5:06 pm I suppose that is true from the organizational and administrative perspective. What I'm saying is that looking for accuracy, precision and perfection is doomed in failure as it didn't happen in the past.
Gotcha

User avatar
BigT
captain of 100
Posts: 739

Re: Tithing

Post by BigT »

Probably already been posted here, but from the current Handbook in the Gospel Library:

34.3.1
Tithing

Tithing is the donation of one-tenth of one’s income to God’s Church (see Doctrine and Covenants 119:3–4; interest is understood to mean income). All members who have income should pay tithing.

Atrasado
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1773

Re: Tithing

Post by Atrasado »

I see an amazing amount of doctrine in the Old Testament and the Book of Mormon. We are taught about the Fall, the need for a Savior, about tithing, about the priesthood, baptism, God's love, obedience, sin and it's negative effects, how to study the scriptures, the gifts of the Spirit, prophecies of the latter days and the establishment of Zion, and the Holy Ghost and much, much more.

User avatar
Seed Starter
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1444
Contact:

Re: Tithing

Post by Seed Starter »

BigT wrote: January 29th, 2023, 8:25 pm Probably already been posted here, but from the current Handbook in the Gospel Library:

34.3.1
Tithing

Tithing is the donation of one-tenth of one’s income to God’s Church (see Doctrine and Covenants 119:3–4; interest is understood to mean income). All members who have income should pay tithing.
General Handbook: Serving in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Published by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Salt Lake City, Utah
© 2020, 2022 by Intellectual Reserve, Inc.
All rights reserved.
Version: 8/22
PD60010241 000

That was current as of August of 2022 but how do we know this is still the current position of the church in 2023? :lol: :lol:

User avatar
ransomme
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4014

Re: Tithing

Post by ransomme »

TheDuke wrote: January 29th, 2023, 5:06 pm I suppose that is true from the organizational and administrative perspective. What I'm saying is that looking for accuracy, precision and perfection is doomed in failure as it didn't happen in the past.

And to Reluctant: I say we have the same scriptures but I read them as much as possible by spirit. But, I will contend that with any metrics you will find very little volume of doctrine directly spoken in the BoM. It is mostly wars by volume. then stories, like ANL's, Alma's journey away from evil priests, building boats, and lots and lots of nice stories that teach parables. Lehi's dream, Alma's faith seed, etc... Just a fact. But much more doctrine that OT for sure.
Wow, and you don't get the old testament at all either.

And from your POV Jesus pretty much didn't teach anything, he pretty much only taught by proverbs and parables.

User avatar
BigT
captain of 100
Posts: 739

Re: Tithing

Post by BigT »

Seed Starter wrote: January 30th, 2023, 12:08 am
BigT wrote: January 29th, 2023, 8:25 pm Probably already been posted here, but from the current Handbook in the Gospel Library:

34.3.1
Tithing

Tithing is the donation of one-tenth of one’s income to God’s Church (see Doctrine and Covenants 119:3–4; interest is understood to mean income). All members who have income should pay tithing.
General Handbook: Serving in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Published by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Salt Lake City, Utah
© 2020, 2022 by Intellectual Reserve, Inc.
All rights reserved.
Version: 8/22
PD60010241 000

That was current as of August of 2022 but how do we know this is still the current position of the church in 2023? :lol: :lol:
Good point

User avatar
TheDuke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5863
Location: Eastern Sodom Suburbs

Re: Tithing

Post by TheDuke »

ransomme wrote: January 30th, 2023, 2:54 am
TheDuke wrote: January 29th, 2023, 5:06 pm I suppose that is true from the organizational and administrative perspective. What I'm saying is that looking for accuracy, precision and perfection is doomed in failure as it didn't happen in the past.

And to Reluctant: I say we have the same scriptures but I read them as much as possible by spirit. But, I will contend that with any metrics you will find very little volume of doctrine directly spoken in the BoM. It is mostly wars by volume. then stories, like ANL's, Alma's journey away from evil priests, building boats, and lots and lots of nice stories that teach parables. Lehi's dream, Alma's faith seed, etc... Just a fact. But much more doctrine that OT for sure.
Wow, and you don't get the old testament at all either.

And from your POV Jesus pretty much didn't teach anything, he pretty much only taught by proverbs and parables.
quote me one verse Jesus wrote himself, vs. one of his followers so we need to trust men. And, as for my comment, I am saying there is very little by volume. Yes we have words of Jesus teaching, as captured by his servants, but how many pages of 531? Most of that is same as in Bible almost word-for-word BTW. What I am saying is most doctrine, even love your neighbor must be put in context, like a story and parable. I mean love your neighbor, what does that mean? Who is your neighbor? What is love? If I love my neighbor, I cannot love my neighbor's wife, nor his @#$, etc... as that is lust. If you cannot see there is much needed by the spirit for interpretation of all scripture, let alone the few, maybe 20 pages of direct teachings vs. 511 pages of stories, allegories, dreams, wars, parables. Then you are not really understanding what I am saying. Which is the opposite of what Reluctant came to same conclusion on, which was my comment basis.

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15313
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: Tithing

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Be careful loving your neighbor's @#$. That may become a thing in the church.

I'm talking about livestock in times of need... *cough*

Mamabear
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3351

Re: Tithing

Post by Mamabear »

From Reddit:
“I was asked to pull out a random object in seminary today, so i pulled out my wallet.
Then, unexpectedly, I was asked how my wallet related to Christ. So, i said that it relates to christ because we need money to give to the Church or else we won't see him again.
I have never seen a room stay that silent for that !?$&#% long afterward.”
😂😂😂

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... object_in/

User avatar
Theveilofforgetting
captain of 50
Posts: 64

Re: Tithing

Post by Theveilofforgetting »

Tithing is being pushed in my ward, even to the poorest. One PH was telling of how he was getting government assistance which barely covered his rent and telling how paying tithing still blessed his family. I was troubled by this because the only way it made sense is if the church was helping or if he managed to get casual work to cover food and bills. He did not mention how his family was blessed, financially or otherwise.

My former bishop did my TR interview last year and I answered no to full tithe payer (and to wearing of garments). He said I should strive to do these things and SP concurred then I was given the TR. Since then I've thought about how I'd paid tithing (while low income). I don't have a testimony of tithing (I am patient though and i am ok with waiting on it). I don't mind donating because if nothing else my kids do benefit from church. I grew up in poverty and saw my mother struggle. The church would help out in emergency situations (eg. Washing machine broke down) but would require her to pay tithing first. My former bishop made it clear he'd assist us financially if we needed it but I'd hate to ask. He (no longer serving in the church due to an injury) has offered to support my son who is planning a mission. I'd obviously support him too but it won't be enough. (He has just got a job and will pay tithing). I certainly know people in the church with wealth who can pay tithing and extra while also fully providing for their kids on missions. At least where I live though it's not common.

The idea of paying tithing and then asking for help to pay for things I'd otherwise be able to pay for seems the opposite of self suffiency (something I value and is still taught in the church). And like an extra step just to show faith that looks more like desperation.

Something offputting about the church having so much surplus yet members are struggling while also serving the church in voluntary positions. I feel like I'm burdening people if I ask for anything (even for a lift to church) because they are already busy and doing so much.

Lorenzo Snow, in the 1899 Conference Address

"...I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child who has means shall pay one tenth of their income as a tithing..."

Conference Report Oct 1899 page 28 (3/5th way down column 2 on page 28) [http://archive.org/stream/conferencerep ... 8/mode/2up

Orson Hyde: "The celestial law requires one-tenth part of all a man's substance which he possesses at the time he comes into the church (See D&C 119:1), and one-tenth part of his annual increase ever after(See D&C 119:4). If it requires all man can earn to support himself and his family, he is not tithed at all. The celestial law does not take the mother's and children's bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world's good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father." (The Millenial Star, 1847. Orson Hyde, editor)

John Corrill: "If a man gives for the benefit of the Church, it is considered a voluntary offering. Yet the law requires or enjoins a consecration of the overplus, after reserving for himself and family to carry on his business." (A Brief History of the Church of Latter Day Saints, pg. 45)

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15313
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: Tithing

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Theveilofforgetting wrote: March 7th, 2023, 5:22 am Tithing is being pushed in my ward, even to the poorest. One PH was telling of how he was getting government assistance which barely covered his rent and telling how paying tithing still blessed his family. I was troubled by this because the only way it made sense is if the church was helping or if he managed to get casual work to cover food and bills. He did not mention how his family was blessed, financially or otherwise.

My former bishop did my TR interview last year and I answered no to full tithe payer (and to wearing of garments). He said I should strive to do these things and SP concurred then I was given the TR. Since then I've thought about how I'd paid tithing (while low income). I don't have a testimony of tithing (I am patient though and i am ok with waiting on it). I don't mind donating because if nothing else my kids do benefit from church. I grew up in poverty and saw my mother struggle. The church would help out in emergency situations (eg. Washing machine broke down) but would require her to pay tithing first. My former bishop made it clear he'd assist us financially if we needed it but I'd hate to ask. He (no longer serving in the church due to an injury) has offered to support my son who is planning a mission. I'd obviously support him too but it won't be enough. (He has just got a job and will pay tithing). I certainly know people in the church with wealth who can pay tithing and extra while also fully providing for their kids on missions. At least where I live though it's not common.

The idea of paying tithing and then asking for help to pay for things I'd otherwise be able to pay for seems the opposite of self suffiency (something I value and is still taught in the church). And like an extra step just to show faith that looks more like desperation.

Something offputting about the church having so much surplus yet members are struggling while also serving the church in voluntary positions. I feel like I'm burdening people if I ask for anything (even for a lift to church) because they are already busy and doing so much.

Lorenzo Snow, in the 1899 Conference Address

"...I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child who has means shall pay one tenth of their income as a tithing..."

Conference Report Oct 1899 page 28 (3/5th way down column 2 on page 28) [http://archive.org/stream/conferencerep ... 8/mode/2up

Orson Hyde: "The celestial law requires one-tenth part of all a man's substance which he possesses at the time he comes into the church (See D&C 119:1), and one-tenth part of his annual increase ever after(See D&C 119:4). If it requires all man can earn to support himself and his family, he is not tithed at all. The celestial law does not take the mother's and children's bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world's good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father." (The Millenial Star, 1847. Orson Hyde, editor)

John Corrill: "If a man gives for the benefit of the Church, it is considered a voluntary offering. Yet the law requires or enjoins a consecration of the overplus, after reserving for himself and family to carry on his business." (A Brief History of the Church of Latter Day Saints, pg. 45)
There’s a reason the churches of our day are condemned by ancient prophets for their mishandling of money. And, in particular, for how they do it upon the backs of the poor. It is one of the worst atrocities IMO because caring for the poor is one of the foundational doctrines taught by Christ, yet church leaders have twisted the doctrine of sacrifice to convince the poorest among us to pay for salvation. It’s an atrocity beyond my comprehension.

BTW, self sufficiency is important, but it was intended to be much more. We covenant to live the law of consecration, but only give it lip service. (And it’s taught incorrectly anyway) A truly consecrated society would give ALL their surplus to those around them. There would be no debt or system of debt. Can you imagine a young new couple beginning their life free of the chains of a debtors system?

Oh, and that quote you added from Lorenzo Snow, when they added that to the lesson manual they removed the words “who has means.” They didn’t want the members to realize that he taught that no everyone should pay tithing. The church is extremely subtle in their deception. This is one of many, many instances where they curate history to benefit their agenda.

Post Reply