Paul the False Apostle

For discussing the Church, Gospel of Jesus Christ, Mormonism, etc.
Post Reply
User avatar
nightlight
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 8407

Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by nightlight »

Pazooka wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 4:29 pm
nightlight wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 4:15 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 1:24 pm To: Nighlight
Love: James

22Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror 24and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do. 26Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless.
Lol first I'm only in this discussion because I'm fighting for my pride......and now my religion is worthless because I don't do what God says to do

But you're just judging me in righteousness!
Like the law says!!!


James:

11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
I should have bolded the “whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it” part, as that’s what most interested me in relation to you and this discussion.

But I also thought the “consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless” was mighty intriguing.

There is only one Lawgiver and I’ll let Him judge. But I am under obligation to warn a brother.
Well......since warning implies love....I'll take it that you just love the heck outta me 😜

User avatar
Pazooka
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5222
Location: FEMA District 8

Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by Pazooka »

nightlight wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 4:49 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 4:29 pm
nightlight wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 4:15 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 1:24 pm To: Nighlight
Love: James

22Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror 24and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do. 26Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless.
Lol first I'm only in this discussion because I'm fighting for my pride......and now my religion is worthless because I don't do what God says to do

But you're just judging me in righteousness!
Like the law says!!!


James:

11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
I should have bolded the “whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it” part, as that’s what most interested me in relation to you and this discussion.

But I also thought the “consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless” was mighty intriguing.

There is only one Lawgiver and I’ll let Him judge. But I am under obligation to warn a brother.
Well......since warning implies love....I'll take it that you just love the heck outta me 😜
I sure do - and let’s be clear about me wanting the heck out of you in the sense of exorcism ;)

User avatar
Redpilled Mormon
captain of 100
Posts: 664

Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

I think sometimes people get so attached to their side of an argument that they lose sight of how interesting the whole idea of the discussion is. This might be the most radically interesting thread I've ever seen because I never even conceived of the notion of Paul not being a true apostle before, and I think gaming out the pros/cons listed out for both viewpoints is both fascinating and useful, whereas the 'Paul fanboys suck' vs 'Paul defenders suck' isn't maybe as useful. Although because I have a twisted sense of humor I really enjoy that too, but that's just me :)

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13999

Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by Niemand »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 10:32 pm I think sometimes people get so attached to their side of an argument that they lose sight of how interesting the whole idea of the discussion is. This might be the most radically interesting thread I've ever seen because I never even conceived of the notion of Paul not being a true apostle before, and I think gaming out the pros/cons listed out for both viewpoints is both fascinating and useful, whereas the 'Paul fanboys suck' vs 'Paul defenders suck' isn't maybe as useful. Although because I have a twisted sense of humor I really enjoy that too, but that's just me :)
It's a widespread (but low key) idea outside Mormonism. It makes a change for me to hear it with LDS input. It's kind of fashionable with people attacking mainstream Christianity, but some of the arguments do hold water, like why does he dominate the NT canon so much?

There is some good stuff in the Pauline Epistles, but I've always placed Jesus' own words and the Gospels on a higher tier. In one place, Paul may quote the Gospel of Thomas (see above). As I said above the Koran doesn't even bother mentioning him, which suggests Arab Christians – some of the oldest churches – may have been barely aware of him around Mohammed's time.

For me, Paul is really the Apostle of the West and Rome. There were others who went elsewhere and vanished.

User avatar
Silver Pie
seeker after Christ
Posts: 8989
Location: In the state that doesn't exist

Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by Silver Pie »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 10:32 pm I think sometimes people get so attached to their side of an argument that they lose sight of how interesting the whole idea of the discussion is. This might be the most radically interesting thread I've ever seen because I never even conceived of the notion of Paul not being a true apostle before, and I think gaming out the pros/cons listed out for both viewpoints is both fascinating and useful, whereas the 'Paul fanboys suck' vs 'Paul defenders suck' isn't maybe as useful. Although because I have a twisted sense of humor I really enjoy that too, but that's just me :)
Exactly how I feel about the thread, too. Fascinating idea. It had never occurred to me before.

User avatar
BeNotDeceived
Agent38
Posts: 8960
Location: Tralfamadore
Contact:

Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by BeNotDeceived »

BenMcCrea wrote: December 28th, 2022, 2:32 pm The Prophet Joseph described the Apostle Paul and obviously was acquainted with him. He was not a false Apostle.
Could it be Paul was a Bishop. ❓

User avatar
Pazooka
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5222
Location: FEMA District 8

Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by Pazooka »

BeNotDeceived wrote: January 29th, 2023, 2:31 pm
BenMcCrea wrote: December 28th, 2022, 2:32 pm The Prophet Joseph described the Apostle Paul and obviously was acquainted with him. He was not a false Apostle.
Could it be Paul was a Bishop. ❓
Yes - of the great and abominable church

simpleton
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3074

Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by simpleton »

Can I sum this up again? Paul is/was not a false apostle. End of story. :D

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13999

Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by Niemand »

simpleton wrote: January 29th, 2023, 3:36 pm Can I sum this up again? Paul is/was not a false apostle. End of story. :D
Not really. I'm more supportive of Paul than Pazooka in some respects, but there is a major issue.

Does Paul have more of his words in the New Testament than Jesus Christ himself? I've a suspicion he does. Jesus is quoted in the Gospels, and sort of in Acts and Revelation. Paul gets a number of books almost to himself or attributed to him. (Jesus isn't the full author of any NT book apparently), and shares the billing in Acts. Jesus is not apparently the direct author of any of the books.

simpleton
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3074

Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by simpleton »

Niemand wrote: January 29th, 2023, 4:00 pm
simpleton wrote: January 29th, 2023, 3:36 pm Can I sum this up again? Paul is/was not a false apostle. End of story. :D
Not really. I'm more supportive of Paul than Pazooka in some respects, but there is a major issue.

Does Paul have more of his words in the New Testament than Jesus Christ himself? I've a suspicion he does. Jesus is quoted in the Gospels, and sort of in Acts and Revelation. Paul gets a number of books almost to himself or attributed to him. (Jesus isn't the full author of any NT book apparently), and shares the billing in Acts. Jesus is not apparently the direct author of any of the books.
Well of course Paul does, but ther JC's words. What is the big deal.

User avatar
Pazooka
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5222
Location: FEMA District 8

Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by Pazooka »

simpleton wrote: January 29th, 2023, 4:16 pm
Niemand wrote: January 29th, 2023, 4:00 pm
simpleton wrote: January 29th, 2023, 3:36 pm Can I sum this up again? Paul is/was not a false apostle. End of story. :D
Not really. I'm more supportive of Paul than Pazooka in some respects, but there is a major issue.

Does Paul have more of his words in the New Testament than Jesus Christ himself? I've a suspicion he does. Jesus is quoted in the Gospels, and sort of in Acts and Revelation. Paul gets a number of books almost to himself or attributed to him. (Jesus isn't the full author of any NT book apparently), and shares the billing in Acts. Jesus is not apparently the direct author of any of the books.
Well of course Paul does, but ther JC's words. What is the big deal.
Exactly where does he quote Jesus?

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13999

Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by Niemand »

simpleton wrote: January 29th, 2023, 4:16 pm
Niemand wrote: January 29th, 2023, 4:00 pm
simpleton wrote: January 29th, 2023, 3:36 pm Can I sum this up again? Paul is/was not a false apostle. End of story. :D
Not really. I'm more supportive of Paul than Pazooka in some respects, but there is a major issue.

Does Paul have more of his words in the New Testament than Jesus Christ himself? I've a suspicion he does. Jesus is quoted in the Gospels, and sort of in Acts and Revelation. Paul gets a number of books almost to himself or attributed to him. (Jesus isn't the full author of any NT book apparently), and shares the billing in Acts. Jesus is not apparently the direct author of any of the books.
Well of course Paul does, but ther JC's words. What is the big deal.
The big deal is that Jesus is the Saviour, the Christ, the Messiah and the Son of God, the Light of the World, the Way, the Truth and the Life.

Paul is supposed to be under him, not vice versa. Most of Paul's letters are written by Paul, not by Jesus Christ. The stuff about short hair for men is Roman tradition. It's arguable if Jesus himself had short hair.

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13999

Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by Niemand »

Paul may have several quotes from Jesus in his work. By that, I'm referring to Jesus during his mortal misson, not in a vision, post-ascension visitation etc. There is one from the Gospel of Thomas (quoted above) which may be authentic and one or two others.

simpleton
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3074

Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by simpleton »

Niemand wrote: January 29th, 2023, 5:32 pm
simpleton wrote: January 29th, 2023, 4:16 pm
Niemand wrote: January 29th, 2023, 4:00 pm
simpleton wrote: January 29th, 2023, 3:36 pm Can I sum this up again? Paul is/was not a false apostle. End of story. :D
Not really. I'm more supportive of Paul than Pazooka in some respects, but there is a major issue.

Does Paul have more of his words in the New Testament than Jesus Christ himself? I've a suspicion he does. Jesus is quoted in the Gospels, and sort of in Acts and Revelation. Paul gets a number of books almost to himself or attributed to him. (Jesus isn't the full author of any NT book apparently), and shares the billing in Acts. Jesus is not apparently the direct author of any of the books.
Well of course Paul does, but ther JC's words. What is the big deal.
The big deal is that Jesus is the Saviour, the Christ, the Messiah and the Son of God, the Light of the World, the Way, the Truth and the Life.

Paul is supposed to be under him, not vice versa. Most of Paul's letters are written by Paul, not by Jesus Christ. The stuff about short hair for men is Roman tradition. It's arguable if Jesus himself had short hair.
I guess I am confused, of course Paul is under Christ. Paul eats, drinks and lives the Gospel of Christ, Christ turned him around, supposedly on the road to Damascus.
I think he was a man with faults, but faithful to the death for the cause of his Master. All of Paul's letter breathe Christ. He worships Christ, he preached Christ, he considered himself as nothing, but yet he was faithful. So what gives?

User avatar
John Tavner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4154

Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by John Tavner »

Niemand wrote: January 29th, 2023, 5:32 pm
simpleton wrote: January 29th, 2023, 4:16 pm
Niemand wrote: January 29th, 2023, 4:00 pm
simpleton wrote: January 29th, 2023, 3:36 pm Can I sum this up again? Paul is/was not a false apostle. End of story. :D
Not really. I'm more supportive of Paul than Pazooka in some respects, but there is a major issue.

Does Paul have more of his words in the New Testament than Jesus Christ himself? I've a suspicion he does. Jesus is quoted in the Gospels, and sort of in Acts and Revelation. Paul gets a number of books almost to himself or attributed to him. (Jesus isn't the full author of any NT book apparently), and shares the billing in Acts. Jesus is not apparently the direct author of any of the books.
Well of course Paul does, but ther JC's words. What is the big deal.
The big deal is that Jesus is the Saviour, the Christ, the Messiah and the Son of God, the Light of the World, the Way, the Truth and the Life.

Paul is supposed to be under him, not vice versa. Most of Paul's letters are written by Paul, not by Jesus Christ. The stuff about short hair for men is Roman tradition. It's arguable if Jesus himself had short hair.
I think we are missing hte symbolism rather than the literal nature of hte words translated into our language today. I believe he is more talking about the nature of man/ vs the nature of woman and authority and man and authority- He is taking symbolism they would have known or understood and using it to teach.

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13999

Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by Niemand »

simpleton wrote: January 29th, 2023, 6:09 pm I guess I am confused, of course Paul is under Christ. Paul eats, drinks and lives the Gospel of Christ, Christ turned him around, supposedly on the road to Damascus.
I think he was a man with faults, but faithful to the death for the cause of his Master. All of Paul's letter breathe Christ. He worships Christ, he preached Christ, he considered himself as nothing, but yet he was faithful. So what gives?
Paul writes entire books. He has another which is largely about him, and written by a supporter (Acts). Paul is not Christ. Much of what he writes is interpretation and opinion.

The mortal Jesus writes no books in the New Testament canon. He is only quoted, sometimes in reasonable chunks but never an entire book. Despite being the Messiah, the Second Adam, the only begotten of the Father.

Paul never met the mortal Jesus. He appears to quote him once or twice. On one occasion from the Gospel of Thomas, which may contain some of his words. Most of Paul's works seem to be his theological opinions, some of them refer to encounters which we know nothing about.

The Saviour of the World seems to have fewer direct quotes in the New Testament than Paul does*, at least prior to his crucifixion and/or ascension. Jesus died for my sins. Not Paul.

James is the probable biological brother of Jesus and may have known him since childhood. He gets less space in the NT than Paul. It is recorded he had arguments with Paul. Peter and Thomas travel vast distances on missions. They also get fewer words in there. John the Baptist is one of the few people in the NT to be a true prophet, and prepares the way for Jesus, but he gets less space than Paul too.

Paul dominates the New Testament more than the person it's supposed to be about. Yes, he does praise Jesus, but this is a problem. There are other players here, and one big player, of whom we know nothing in his teens or twenties. We don't even know what happened to his father Joseph, whether anyone else recognised his role between 12 and 30.

* I admit that I would need to see stats on this, but this is the impression I am getting.

User avatar
John Tavner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4154

Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by John Tavner »

Niemand wrote: January 29th, 2023, 6:21 pm
simpleton wrote: January 29th, 2023, 6:09 pm I guess I am confused, of course Paul is under Christ. Paul eats, drinks and lives the Gospel of Christ, Christ turned him around, supposedly on the road to Damascus.
I think he was a man with faults, but faithful to the death for the cause of his Master. All of Paul's letter breathe Christ. He worships Christ, he preached Christ, he considered himself as nothing, but yet he was faithful. So what gives?
Paul writes entire books. He has another which is largely about him, and written by a supporter (Acts). Paul is not Christ. Much of what he writes is interpretation and opinion.

The mortal Jesus writes no books in the New Testament canon. He is only quoted, sometimes in reasonable chunks but never an entire book. Despite being the Messiah, the Second Adam, the only begotten of the Father.

Paul never met the mortal Jesus. He appears to quote him once or twice. On one occasion from the Gospel of Thomas, which may contain some of his words. Most of Paul's works seem to be his theological opinions, some of them refer to encounters which we know nothing about.

The Saviour of the World seems to have fewer direct quotes in the New Testament than Paul does*, at least prior to his crucifixion and/or ascension. Jesus died for my sins. Not Paul.

James is the probable biological brother of Jesus and may have known him since childhood. He gets less space in the NT than Paul. It is recorded he had arguments with Paul. Peter and Thomas travel vast distances on missions. They also get fewer words in there. John the Baptist is one of the few people in the NT to be a true prophet, and prepares the way for Jesus, but he gets less space than Paul too.

Paul dominates the New Testament more than the person it's supposed to be about. Yes, he does praise Jesus, but this is a problem. There are other players here, and one big player, of whom we know nothing in his teens or twenties. We don't even know what happened to his father Joseph, whether anyone else recognised his role between 12 and 30.

* I admit that I would need to see stats on this, but this is the impression I am getting.
Dude, Paul doesn't write entire "books" They are letters to churches that people collected copied and passed around. Paul didn't "write" the bible. He wrote letters which people respected because he was an apostle to the gentiles, he spent most of his time among them - He wasn't in charge of a church in Jerusalem and didn't spend most of his time amongst teh jews who got wrecked (sacked)by the Romans and were persecuted by the Jews all of which had desire to destroy writings. Is it really that shocking that more letters are found written by Paul then those who spent more time among the Jews?
Last edited by John Tavner on January 29th, 2023, 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13999

Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by Niemand »

John Tavner wrote: January 29th, 2023, 6:30 pm Dude, Paul doesn't write entire "books" They are letters to churches that people collected. Paul didn't "write" the bible. He wrote letters people respected because he was an apostle to the gentiles - He wasn't in charge of a church in Jerusalem and didn't spend most of his time amongst teh jews who got wrecked by the Romans and were persecuted by the Jews. Is it really that shocking that more letters are found written by Paul then those who spent more time among the Jews?
I provided a list of New Testament books above. Most of them are Paul's personal correspondence or claimed to be. The Gospels obviously aren't his. Acts is often about him, but not by him, but the books between Acts and Revelation are mostly by him. So yes, Paul did write quite a bit of the Bible.

The New Testament is a bit like buying an album of music for a particular artist, only to find most of the tracks are by the same tribute band instead.

Yet Paul was not the only show in town. Others appear to be largely struck from the record. Journeys to the east and south vanish.

What did Jesus do at five? Ten? Fifteen? Twenty? Twenty five? We don't have a clue from the New Testament. He went to Egypt as a small child. We don't know when he came back home. Then after one small mention at age 12, he disappears again from the record for 18 years. We don't know what happened to Joseph. Thanks to these huge gaps, we have books saying Jesus went to India and even Japan in this time. Some of the non-canonical gospels do talk about Jesus as a child outside of the Nativity and the Temple. Did adult Jesus have long hair and a beard? We're not even told that, although we do have Paul's hair styling advice for men and women. (The men's hair suggested to be short in the Roman style.)

User avatar
John Tavner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4154

Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by John Tavner »

Niemand wrote: January 29th, 2023, 6:49 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 29th, 2023, 6:30 pm Dude, Paul doesn't write entire "books" They are letters to churches that people collected. Paul didn't "write" the bible. He wrote letters people respected because he was an apostle to the gentiles - He wasn't in charge of a church in Jerusalem and didn't spend most of his time amongst teh jews who got wrecked by the Romans and were persecuted by the Jews. Is it really that shocking that more letters are found written by Paul then those who spent more time among the Jews?
I provided a list of New Testament books above. Most of them are Paul's personal correspondence or claimed to be. The Gospels obviously aren't his. Acts is often about him, but not by him, but the books between Acts and Revelation are mostly by him. So yes, Paul did write quite a bit of the Bible.

The New Testament is a bit like buying an album of music for a particular artist, only to find most of the tracks are by the same tribute band instead.

Yet Paul was not the only show in town. Others appear to be largely struck from the record. Journeys to the east and south vanish.

What did Jesus do at five? Ten? Fifteen? Twenty? Twenty five? We don't have a clue from the New Testament. He went to Egypt as a small child. We don't know when he came back home. Then after one small mention at age 12, he disappears again from the record for 18 years. We don't know what happened to Joseph. Thanks to these huge gaps, we have books saying Jesus went to India and even Japan in this time. Some of the non-canonical gospels do talk about Jesus as a child outside of the Nativity and the Temple. Did adult Jesus have long hair and a beard? We're not even told that, although we do have Paul's hair styling advice for men and women. (The men's hair suggested to be short in the Roman style.)
You're misunderstanding/ I'm not being clear. Paul didn't write the Bible - this isn't Paul's fault there are letters included in the BIble - the Old Testametn is Books, the NEw Testament consists of letters other than the 4 gospels. No one is claiming Paul was the only show in town.

Jesus' life at 5 or 10 or 20 doesn't matter because He wasn't a "Son of God" until the HOly Ghost came upon HIm and HE began His mission. He was submissive to the law until that point. Jesus' mission was to save and to declare the Kingdom of God was within us. This is the point of hte gospels to show that we can be transformed into His image. This is what Paul teaches. Knowing what Jesus did at age 5 doesn't change hte truth because you don't need to know what Jesus did at age 5 or 10 or 20 because God is not looking for our actions in just doing things, He is lookiing for a transformation of our hearts which will lead to life giving actions. We must be born again. Paul's message is the same message that Christ teaches. Transformation, looking at the world with new eyes. NO longer don't kill, also don't be angry....

God doesn't care about the Length of the hair, neither does Paul - He was talking about authority and using symbolism- Samson and Samuel is an example of this.

simpleton
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3074

Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by simpleton »

Niemand wrote: January 29th, 2023, 6:49 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 29th, 2023, 6:30 pm Dude, Paul doesn't write entire "books" They are letters to churches that people collected. Paul didn't "write" the bible. He wrote letters people respected because he was an apostle to the gentiles - He wasn't in charge of a church in Jerusalem and didn't spend most of his time amongst teh jews who got wrecked by the Romans and were persecuted by the Jews. Is it really that shocking that more letters are found written by Paul then those who spent more time among the Jews?
I provided a list of New Testament books above. Most of them are Paul's personal correspondence or claimed to be. The Gospels obviously aren't his. Acts is often about him, but not by him, but the books between Acts and Revelation are mostly by him. So yes, Paul did write quite a bit of the Bible.

The New Testament is a bit like buying an album of music for a particular artist, only to find most of the tracks are by the same tribute band instead.

Yet Paul was not the only show in town. Others appear to be largely struck from the record. Journeys to the east and south vanish.

What did Jesus do at five? Ten? Fifteen? Twenty? Twenty five? We don't have a clue from the New Testament. He went to Egypt as a small child. We don't know when he came back home. Then after one small mention at age 12, he disappears again from the record for 18 years. We don't know what happened to Joseph. Thanks to these huge gaps, we have books saying Jesus went to India and even Japan in this time. Some of the non-canonical gospels do talk about Jesus as a child outside of the Nativity and the Temple. Did adult Jesus have long hair and a beard? We're not even told that, although we do have Paul's hair styling advice for men and women. (The men's hair suggested to be short in the Roman style.)
Ok..well, personally I like what Paul had to say and I like what James n John and Mathew and the others had to say. But all may have their own opinion on the matter. As for me, I like their message, I believe their message, and I like the manner/spirit that their words convey.
I don't think that every single word is accurate as say, what was written from their hand, or exactly what they preached, but generally speaking, I think they were zealous for the cause of Christ.

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13999

Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by Niemand »

John Tavner wrote: January 29th, 2023, 7:01 pm You're misunderstanding/ I'm not being clear. Paul didn't write the Bible - this isn't Paul's fault there are letters included in the BIble - the Old Testametn is Books, the NEw Testament consists of letters other than the 4 gospels. No one is claiming Paul was the only show in town.
You are being perfectly clear. You're claiming it's not his fault most of the New Testament is written by him.

There's no way round it. The New Testament canon is Pauline. More works on Paul's opinion of Jesus than Jesus directly.
Jesus' life at 5 or 10 or 20 doesn't matter because He wasn't a "Son of God" until the HOly Ghost came upon HIm and HE began His mission.
That's an old heresy. I was trying to look up what that's called but even Mormons acknowledge he was a son of God before he was born.
God doesn't care about the Length of the hair, neither does Paul - He was talking about authority and using symbolism- Samson and Samuel is an example of this.
Meanwhile St. Paul:
1 Corinthians 11:14 — “Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?”

User avatar
John Tavner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4154

Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by John Tavner »

Niemand wrote: January 30th, 2023, 3:54 am
John Tavner wrote: January 29th, 2023, 7:01 pm You're misunderstanding/ I'm not being clear. Paul didn't write the Bible - this isn't Paul's fault there are letters included in the BIble - the Old Testametn is Books, the NEw Testament consists of letters other than the 4 gospels. No one is claiming Paul was the only show in town.
You are being perfectly clear. You're claiming it's not his fault most of the New Testament is written by him.

There's no way round it. The New Testament canon is Pauline. More works on Paul's opinion of Jesus than Jesus directly.
Jesus' life at 5 or 10 or 20 doesn't matter because He wasn't a "Son of God" until the HOly Ghost came upon HIm and HE began His mission.
That's an old heresy. I was trying to look up what that's called but even Mormons acknowledge he was a son of God before he was born.
God doesn't care about the Length of the hair, neither does Paul - He was talking about authority and using symbolism- Samson and Samuel is an example of this.
Meanwhile St. Paul:
1 Corinthians 11:14 — “Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?”
No I'm saying He wasn't CALLED to be a Son of God to manifest what the Kingdom looks like and that He is King (heir). God did not Call Him as one until that point - though with an eye of faith He saw Him as such and Jesus did too. HE was not acknowledged, though by God publicly up until that point. THere is a lot of significance in God saying "This is my Beloved Son" There is significance in the Holy Spirit coming down upon Jesus. THere is significance in Him going out into the wilderness for 40 days and succeeding which it took the JEws 40 years and they STILL failed. He lived life fully as a man, but without sin, fulfiling every jot and tittle up until that point. WHen HOly SPirit comes upon Him, He has the same calling we all do, to live like God. Do you see the significance behind that? Jesus lived life 30 years completely and utterly under the law, lived it perfectly, not only in letter, but spirit and was considered righteous before God, worthy to be called a Son- God then declared Him heir by giving Him sonship with Holy SPirit declaring that He was a Son. His life before being "born again" has no bearing on what Jesus did after, because He was representing what being "born again" means.

Again, Paul is using hair as a metaphor for authority, both of hte man and the woman and roles... It's like saying Look Nature itself tells you men should protect women, not women men. Hair is a covering hair is the glory. the Glory of man is Woman, the glory of God is man. If something is covered you protect it. You cherish it. You don't throw it out in the open. We love to read things from our 21st century perspective and don't even attempt to understand what they were saying back then. . Peter says it best " our beloved Paul wrote many things that are hard to understand, which many people wrest..."

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13999

Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by Niemand »

John Tavner wrote: January 30th, 2023, 6:24 am
Niemand wrote: January 30th, 2023, 3:54 am
John Tavner wrote: January 29th, 2023, 7:01 pm You're misunderstanding/ I'm not being clear. Paul didn't write the Bible - this isn't Paul's fault there are letters included in the BIble - the Old Testametn is Books, the NEw Testament consists of letters other than the 4 gospels. No one is claiming Paul was the only show in town.
You are being perfectly clear. You're claiming it's not his fault most of the New Testament is written by him.

There's no way round it. The New Testament canon is Pauline. More works on Paul's opinion of Jesus than Jesus directly.
Jesus' life at 5 or 10 or 20 doesn't matter because He wasn't a "Son of God" until the HOly Ghost came upon HIm and HE began His mission.
That's an old heresy. I was trying to look up what that's called but even Mormons acknowledge he was a son of God before he was born.
God doesn't care about the Length of the hair, neither does Paul - He was talking about authority and using symbolism- Samson and Samuel is an example of this.
Meanwhile St. Paul:
1 Corinthians 11:14 — “Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?”
No I'm saying He wasn't CALLED to be a Son of God to manifest what the Kingdom looks like and that He is King (heir). God did not Call Him as one until that point - though with an eye of faith He saw Him as such and Jesus did too. HE was not acknowledged, though by God publicly up until that point. THere is a lot of significance in God saying "This is my Beloved Son" There is significance in the Holy Spirit coming down upon Jesus. THere is significance in Him going out into the wilderness for 40 days and succeeding which it took the JEws 40 years and they STILL failed. He lived life fully as a man, but without sin, fulfiling every jot and tittle up until that point. WHen HOly SPirit comes upon Him, He has the same calling we all do, to live like God. Do you see the significance behind that? Jesus lived life 30 years completely and utterly under the law, lived it perfectly, not only in letter, but spirit and was considered righteous before God, worthy to be called a Son- God then declared Him heir by giving Him sonship with Holy SPirit declaring that He was a Son. His life before being "born again" has no bearing on what Jesus did after, because He was representing what being "born again" means.

Again, Paul is using hair as a metaphor for authority, both of hte man and the woman and roles... It's like saying Look Nature itself tells you men should protect women, not women men. Hair is a covering hair is the glory. the Glory of man is Woman, the glory of God is man. If something is covered you protect it. You cherish it. You don't throw it out in the open. We love to read things from our 21st century perspective and don't even attempt to understand what they were saying back then. . Peter says it best " our beloved Paul wrote many things that are hard to understand, which many people wrest..."
Jesus is the only begotten of the father. That's what makes him unique. It's made clear elsewhere that he existed before his physical birth.

The hair thing is a Roman cultural trait. The Roman military kept their hair short and cut off their beards, and some folk sought to emulate them. It wasn't usual for men to have short hair in the Levant unless they were Romans.

User avatar
John Tavner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4154

Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by John Tavner »

Niemand wrote: January 30th, 2023, 10:23 am
John Tavner wrote: January 30th, 2023, 6:24 am
Niemand wrote: January 30th, 2023, 3:54 am
John Tavner wrote: January 29th, 2023, 7:01 pm You're misunderstanding/ I'm not being clear. Paul didn't write the Bible - this isn't Paul's fault there are letters included in the BIble - the Old Testametn is Books, the NEw Testament consists of letters other than the 4 gospels. No one is claiming Paul was the only show in town.
You are being perfectly clear. You're claiming it's not his fault most of the New Testament is written by him.

There's no way round it. The New Testament canon is Pauline. More works on Paul's opinion of Jesus than Jesus directly.
Jesus' life at 5 or 10 or 20 doesn't matter because He wasn't a "Son of God" until the HOly Ghost came upon HIm and HE began His mission.
That's an old heresy. I was trying to look up what that's called but even Mormons acknowledge he was a son of God before he was born.
God doesn't care about the Length of the hair, neither does Paul - He was talking about authority and using symbolism- Samson and Samuel is an example of this.
Meanwhile St. Paul:
1 Corinthians 11:14 — “Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?”
No I'm saying He wasn't CALLED to be a Son of God to manifest what the Kingdom looks like and that He is King (heir). God did not Call Him as one until that point - though with an eye of faith He saw Him as such and Jesus did too. HE was not acknowledged, though by God publicly up until that point. THere is a lot of significance in God saying "This is my Beloved Son" There is significance in the Holy Spirit coming down upon Jesus. THere is significance in Him going out into the wilderness for 40 days and succeeding which it took the JEws 40 years and they STILL failed. He lived life fully as a man, but without sin, fulfiling every jot and tittle up until that point. WHen HOly SPirit comes upon Him, He has the same calling we all do, to live like God. Do you see the significance behind that? Jesus lived life 30 years completely and utterly under the law, lived it perfectly, not only in letter, but spirit and was considered righteous before God, worthy to be called a Son- God then declared Him heir by giving Him sonship with Holy SPirit declaring that He was a Son. His life before being "born again" has no bearing on what Jesus did after, because He was representing what being "born again" means.

Again, Paul is using hair as a metaphor for authority, both of hte man and the woman and roles... It's like saying Look Nature itself tells you men should protect women, not women men. Hair is a covering hair is the glory. the Glory of man is Woman, the glory of God is man. If something is covered you protect it. You cherish it. You don't throw it out in the open. We love to read things from our 21st century perspective and don't even attempt to understand what they were saying back then. . Peter says it best " our beloved Paul wrote many things that are hard to understand, which many people wrest..."
Jesus is the only begotten of the father. That's what makes him unique. It's made clear elsewhere that he existed before his physical birth.

The hair thing is a Roman cultural trait. The Roman military kept their hair short and cut off their beards, and some folk sought to emulate them. It wasn't usual for men to have short hair in the Levant unless they were Romans.
I'm not arguing that Jesus is the only begotten of the Father. Of course He was - He was also the FIRST of MANY. When you are baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost, you are begotten of God. Through one man (the first Adam) man fell, and through hte Last Adam (Christ) many shall be saved. He is Unique because HE lived as a man and did not sin, He condescended and thought not himself equal with God though He was equal with God- If He had sinned or not had charity, He would not and could not have saved us. He had to do it as a man and forsake his godhood in order to be the perfect unblemished sacrifice for us - not just to free us from sin, but to show us who we really are and we can be transformed into His image, because that is who we were called to be from teh beginning. His uniqueness is that He was the image of God in the flesh, but His calling to be as such doesn't begin until the HOly Spirit came upon Him. Until that point, He lived purely as a man- teaching in some cases, but not doing the Father's work other than living hte law. Jesus has and is charity - that is what makes Him unique, it is how He was able to live perfectly all the laws and fulfill all 613 commandments - not just in spirit, but in letter too. We are all descended from God. We are all called to be children of God. Adam Himself was created by God. We are descended from Adam. The difference between us and Jesus is that JEsus knew who He was, we don't believe what Jesus told us we are. It is clear that we existed before birth too. Jeremiah. Before I formed you in the belly I knew you.

LDS teachings fail to understand the importance of Jesus deciding to be baptized and being called the Son of God by God and the Spirit falling on Him - and what that means. He is the example. It is us also receiving all that hte Father has for us. He opened the path, by becoming the propitiation for our sins and showing us we don't have to live as a man (even if we live the law of God perfectly) we are called to live as Sons of God.

I'm not arguing that it wasn't roman culture. I'm arguing that Paul was not arguing about the literal length of hair - it was a metaphor for the people in Corinth - that particular culture because they understood hair had a meaning.

User avatar
Enoch
captain of 100
Posts: 593

Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by Enoch »

Wondering Wendy wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 1:36 am All of the carnal laws are given for fallen, telestial people. Obeying them is a demonstration to God that you want to change your heart. We are to obey these commandments as we understand them, exercising faith, then repentance, baptism, until we are baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. Then the Mighty Change of Heart occurs.

After this, we are to follow the Holy Spirit who is now guiding us, as we are now redeemed to a terrestrial state. The Spirit will likely tell us to still keep the commandments, only more internally even, such as the Sermon on the Mount instructs. Though it might tell us to break one someday for a righteous purpose. Like it did with Abraham, telling him to sacrifice his son, or withhold the fact that Sarah was his wife. Or with Nephi, telling him to kill Laban, etc.

It might tell us to stop taking medication on faith, or stop watching TV, or stop listening to certain kinds of music. Or don't take that job, or do move to that state. Go help that person and give them what you can. All sorts of things, some that have nothing to do with what's written in scripture.

The Lord is going to test our obedience to heeding the promptings of the Spirit. He is also going to teach us and write the law on our hearts. This law is love God and love your neighbor.

Then, finally, we will get our Calling and Election made sure: celestial state. Now the law, love God and love your neighbor, is fully written on our hearts. We are not perfect as in making no errors, but our hearts are pure with love, as written there by God. We continue to grow in this love and help those around us as best we can and as the Spirit directs.

All of the laws, covenants, and ordinances of the scriptures are there to lead us on this path, to reach this celestial state. Once our hearts are changed, we no longer have a desire to do evil. The Spirit guides us by giving us knowledge on how best to help our brothers and sisters. We are no longer thinking about obeying carnal laws as we are focused on following the Spirit and helping people; the thought of hurting someone is not something we ever want to do. Therefore we break no carnal commandments because they cause pain to others.

The dead works and teaching ordinances, such as circumcision, water baptism, etc. are not necessary for people in a terrestrial state or higher. Only as a witness or manifestation to others to help teach them correct principals. This is why Jesus was baptized. Not for himself, but as an example for others.

So the question then becomes: Is what I'm about to do going to help or hurt someone on their journey to the Lord? Only the Spirit can know for sure, which is why we abide in him and ask.

We start off our relationship with God as Servants. Obeying him for the sake of obedience alone. Then we gradually become Sons or Daughters, asking and learning the reasons behind the commands, as an heir learning the ropes of his father's business. Then, we become Friends. Conversing and counseling with God, as an actual friend would.

To truly progress, we need to move beyond the pharisaical obedience to the carnal laws, and learn to walk in the Spirit as a Friend to God. Jesus fulfilled the law; following him, we need to fulfill the law, also, (Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Holy Spirit) and then walk in the Spirit. This is what Paul was teaching. Peter also. The BoM and D&C also. This is the Way, as I understand it. :)
Wow beautifully said!

Post Reply