When does the SHTF ?

[Original_Intent]

One example of why I maintain that it is already hitting the fan, and has been for a long time.. think back to WW2 in Germany, Russia, Japan, etc, and all the tyranny, the deaths, the cities destroyed, having to rebuild, start a new life, etc. There are plenty of other examples throughout history, even in the U.S.

It's the Book of Mormon Pride Cycle over and over again.

The Fourth Turning?

But in these endless cycles, at some points more S is hitting TF than others.

Consistent with all those cyclical realities, my own view is that we are approaching a point in this particular cycle when more S is probably going to HTF than we have seen up to this point in our own lifetimes.

It's all relative, I suppose.

The Fourth Turning, as I am sure you know, culminates in pretty much a complete collapse in existing institutions, and an establishment of a new order. Not every single institution dies, but there is a large loss of confidence in governments, religions, any and all power structures. The globalists have been preparing the new alternatives that THEY want - they know about Fourth Turnings as well, probably better than most.

[Original_Intent]

I think realistically, hyperinflation is coming. I don't think the globalists will allow the economy to collapse so long as they get anything from it. Once hyperinflation does set in, then the dollar will become worthless; and then the economy will finally go back to something that has some kind of value. (Also, it would be a great opportunity for the antichrist to hit us up with the new fed digital id, but hey).

Congress called their omnibus bill "inflation-reduction" but they know inflation is coming. The Ukraine war is allowing trillions of dollars to be made out of thin air as they take out bonds to pay for American weapons and hedge them with hedgefunds with a trillion per billion dollar bond. (William Mount explained this on his recent youtube video for Jan 26).

The globalists just keep winning all because a couple billionaires figured out how to rig our elections and we haven't figured out a way to stop it.

...far more risk of deflation than hyperinflation...

...but I get that has been the prevailing popular thought pattern for some years now...

...the greatest risk though will be a devastating plague me thinks...when Bill Gates gives up on trying to get people to voluntarily take something (close if not there now)...or in other words perceive that they are losing control of the narrative and the people...the liability will be too big and they'll unleash everything in their bio-arsenal to eradicate their enemies outside of a control group that they believe they can control...

...things like the Project Veritas release last night are becoming more frequent...all the vaxx believers are getting their cages rattled near daily now...and some even (like Scott) are admitting defeat...

...the believers will be more angry than the anti-vaxxers ever were...

Haha, I thought I had won you over to the hyperinflation argument.

At any rate, more volatility in both directions only serves them better, as they are able to capitalize on each swing, and the quicker those swings happen, the more they can accumulate quickly (and the more everyone else loses quickly)

Some people bet one direction because they see things in America-centric terms and feel that "Why would the Federal Reserve ever make an ultimately self-destructive choice?" but when you realize that the Federal Reserve is only one piece in a much larger, pretty much global system, you understand how collapsing the US plays into their plans very well.

My gut says to just be extremely contrarian to whatever move the MSM signals. Don't follow the herd on this one.

[tmac]

One example of why I maintain that it is already hitting the fan, and has been for a long time.. think back to WW2 in Germany, Russia, Japan, etc, and all the tyranny, the deaths, the cities destroyed, having to rebuild, start a new life, etc. There are plenty of other examples throughout history, even in the U.S.

It's the Book of Mormon Pride Cycle over and over again.

The Fourth Turning?

But in these endless cycles, at some points more S is hitting TF than others.

Consistent with all those cyclical realities, my own view is that we are approaching a point in this particular cycle when more S is probably going to HTF than we have seen up to this point in our own lifetimes.

It's all relative, I suppose.

The Fourth Turning, as I am sure you know, culminates in pretty much a complete collapse in existing institutions, and an establishment of a new order. Not every single institution dies, but there is a large loss of confidence in governments, religions, any and all power structures. The globalists have been preparing the new alternatives that THEY want - they know about Fourth Turnings as well, probably better than most.

Exactly what I am concerned about.

If the NWO that they have envisioned is what emerges on the other side of this cycle (and they seem pretty well postured at this point), that probably means dealing with that reality for the next 80+ years until the next re-set (which might then actually be the BIG One?), the realities of the NWO they currently have envisioned are not really a world that I want to be any part of.

And, at this point, I think the writing is pretty much on the wall — either this is the BIG one that stops that from happening, or the next 80-100 years will be a dystopian nightmare worse than anything we might have imagined.

So the question of WHEN. REAL. S. actually will HTF is a highly relevant question.

[Original_Intent]

One example of why I maintain that it is already hitting the fan, and has been for a long time.. think back to WW2 in Germany, Russia, Japan, etc, and all the tyranny, the deaths, the cities destroyed, having to rebuild, start a new life, etc. There are plenty of other examples throughout history, even in the U.S.

It's the Book of Mormon Pride Cycle over and over again.

The Fourth Turning?

But in these endless cycles, at some points more S is hitting TF than others.

Consistent with all those cyclical realities, my own view is that we are approaching a point in this particular cycle when more S is probably going to HTF than we have seen up to this point in our own lifetimes.

It's all relative, I suppose.

The Fourth Turning, as I am sure you know, culminates in pretty much a complete collapse in existing institutions, and an establishment of a new order. Not every single institution dies, but there is a large loss of confidence in governments, religions, any and all power structures. The globalists have been preparing the new alternatives that THEY want - they know about Fourth Turnings as well, probably better than most.

Exactly what I am concerned about. If the NWO that they have envisioned is what emerges on the other side of this cycle (and they seem pretty well postured at this point), that probably means dealing with that reality for the next 80+ years until the next re-set (which might then actually be the BIG One?), the realities of the NWO they currently have envisioned are not really a world that I want to be any part of.

So the question of WHEN. REAL. S. actually will HTF is a highly relevant question.

I will propose that this is one area that the principles of MLM network marketing can actually bear some real fruit. Take money out of it, it is not a good way to make money uinless you are in early and it is a pyramid scheme.

But, using the principles of network marketing to spread the word of a liberty movement has long fascinated me with the possibilities and a rapid response.

Even if each person only has two other contacts/cells/"downline mathematically this becomes huge quickly. The big difficulty of course is TRULY converting new people after the initial group that already understands is on board.

Each level of downline progresses as follows, assuming two converts per member, starting with a single member;

1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512,1024,2048,4096,8192, then rounding down 16K, 32K, 64K, 128K, 256K, 512K, rounding down again 1M, 2M, 4M, 8M, 16M, 32M, 64M, 128M, 256M, 512M, rounding down 1B, 2B 4B, every single person on earth. 34 levels. But if you assume that globally there are already 8000 people that are converted to the idea (and as bad as I think things are I think that is a crazy low number) that means only 20 levels. From there it is just necessary to convey some basic simple principles and also convey the urgency of spreading the word.

And of course if we said each person gets ten people (a big and difficult stretch for most of us probably) it goes from 8000 to 80,000 to 800,000 to 8 million, 80 million, 800 million 8 billion. six degrees of separation from Kevin Bacon!

And I know - spreading and convincing people of this is not that easy, but I think as things continue to get worse that people are going to be more open to "conspiracy theories" if they have good evidence to back them up. I hope so.

[tribrac]

When...maybe within two years....

WEF warns of catastrophic computer virus and attacks within 2 years...

https://www.popularmechanics.com/techno ... n-2-years/

[BeNotDeceived]

Ya know the stuff,

When does it hit the fan?

About 5 years from now I hope to retire.

How long will our current state of bliss continue?

It has already started in the housing market. Everything crashes this year.

sOB4qpdwaUU

Begins with SOB and ends with: search.php?keywords=Your+letters+even+h ... mit=Search

[Jason]

I think realistically, hyperinflation is coming. I don't think the globalists will allow the economy to collapse so long as they get anything from it. Once hyperinflation does set in, then the dollar will become worthless; and then the economy will finally go back to something that has some kind of value. (Also, it would be a great opportunity for the antichrist to hit us up with the new fed digital id, but hey).

Congress called their omnibus bill "inflation-reduction" but they know inflation is coming. The Ukraine war is allowing trillions of dollars to be made out of thin air as they take out bonds to pay for American weapons and hedge them with hedgefunds with a trillion per billion dollar bond. (William Mount explained this on his recent youtube video for Jan 26).

The globalists just keep winning all because a couple billionaires figured out how to rig our elections and we haven't figured out a way to stop it.

...far more risk of deflation than hyperinflation...

...but I get that has been the prevailing popular thought pattern for some years now...

...the greatest risk though will be a devastating plague me thinks...when Bill Gates gives up on trying to get people to voluntarily take something (close if not there now)...or in other words perceive that they are losing control of the narrative and the people...the liability will be too big and they'll unleash everything in their bio-arsenal to eradicate their enemies outside of a control group that they believe they can control...

...things like the Project Veritas release last night are becoming more frequent...all the vaxx believers are getting their cages rattled near daily now...and some even (like Scott) are admitting defeat...

...the believers will be more angry than the anti-vaxxers ever were...

Haha, I thought I had won you over to the hyperinflation argument.

At any rate, more volatility in both directions only serves them better, as they are able to capitalize on each swing, and the quicker those swings happen, the more they can accumulate quickly (and the more everyone else loses quickly)

Some people bet one direction because they see things in America-centric terms and feel that "Why would the Federal Reserve ever make an ultimately self-destructive choice?" but when you realize that the Federal Reserve is only one piece in a much larger, pretty much global system, you understand how collapsing the US plays into their plans very well.

My gut says to just be extremely contrarian to whatever move the MSM signals. Don't follow the herd on this one.

Sorry...I see deflation on a daily basis...sure the necessities like food not so much (particularly eggs)...

But anything that relies on discretionary income isn't looking so hot...sales, rebates, discounts, coupons, overstock, specials, etc etc etc

Nothing that looks remotely like monetary hyperinflation...even if last year ran roughly 32% inflation due to supply issues and monopolistic endeavors...largely energy driven...which was intentional...like the egg supply crisis...it's not driven by monetary but by supply...

Meanwhile over 50% of Americans can't pay their credit card balance every month and average interest rate is running 20%...and the job losses are just getting started...

Certainly zero evidence (from my perspective) that Americans are oversupplied with cash chasing fewer and fewer assets...

Watch the BLS revisions for that 1 million jobs correction...along with all their other later adjustments that are quietly released....

[Silver Pie]

I love Graham Hancock. Around 20 years ago, I got Fingerprints of the Gods. Now, I have many books he has written. He has really opened my eyes to a lot of things.

Your vision is interesting - and it makes sense that that's what happened.

I just watched the video. I find it very interesting, and it does in fact really start to speak to some of the stuff I'm specifically asking about. I've been thinking a lot about this lately.

The last month or so I've been spending a fair amount of time on and around the Navajo Reservation and the Grand Canyon. At some point in my travels, a vision opened in my mind's eye about the natural conditions that I feel like would have needed to exist to create that landscape, including the Grand Canyon.

Instead of simply billions of years of very gradual erosion, what I saw was a massive inundation of water actually coming down along the West side of the Rockies, that would have flowed to and created much of the existing landscape on the Navajo reservation, and carved out the Grand Canyon.

Since then, one of my friends told me about a guy by the name of Graham Hancock who talks to Joe Rogan a lot, and has done a controversial documentary series where he talks about his theory that at some point, during the Ice Age, a comet hit somewhere in the Northern Rockies, and ended up changing the climate and a whole bunch of landscape, by, among other things, quickly melting such large glaciers and ice fields that it created massive flooding that would have completely inundated that whole area, creating Lake Bonneville in the Great Basin, with essentially all the rest of the water accumulating in the Snake/Columbia and Green/Colorado Rivers, and ultimately carving out the Grand Canyon and Columbia River Gorge as massive amounts of water rushed toward the Pacific Ocean.

Once I understood the theory, it seemed to be consistent with the vision I had seen in my mind's eye of what had happened at that time.

That is part of the reason why I am now attempting to better understand likely scenarios at this point that would cause the mountains to be a strategic advantage -- because to be completely honest, that would not have necessarily been the case at that time. The Wasatch and Sierra Nevada mountains trapped that inundation in the Great Basin and prevented it from subsiding for a very long time. Consequently, almost all but the highest valleys within those mountains would have been completely inundated with no where for the water to go for centuries.

So, based on our long-revered prophesies, etc., theories that show how/why the mountains in that same area would now (this time around) hold back a massive inundation of water from the oceans are definitely interesting to me, because that is essentially the only genuinely strategic advantage I can realistically envision for these mountains at this point — unless you simply can’t live without skiing, snowboarding, and snowmobiling, of course.

Other thoughts?

[Silver Pie]

since it "begins" and then "goes forth". That sounds like a plague, right?

Makes sense.

[Silver Pie]

how do the mountains factor into the equation? It has long been believed that the mountains would provide some form/level of protection. So, I need someone who feels like they’ve got a handle on it to talk me through it.

Miles high tsunamis when the earth reels to and fro like a drunken man is my theory.

[Jason]

My in a nutshell guess is prophecy will be fulfilled and they will fill the pit they've dug. Part of that is them turning on each other or as the scriptures state...they'll feed on their own flesh.

System (control structure) will collapse in the process. Then it will be small scale warfare in abundance as everyone fights to conquer their own local hill and be king for the day.

Due to good folks and some repentance (plague, some good natural disasters, wars, 70 lb hailstones, etc)...along with structure and Priesthood...Zion will get created and carved out here in the rockies and will eventually spread over the rest of the land.

Europe not so lucky and just mobs of people killing each other (scorched earth). I'm also guessing that the few good folks left will group together and will be preserved by a highway created from the deep so the lost tribes can escape and cross over.

Christ will return at some point in there creating a spiritual burning that causes the dark ones that are left to try and hide themselves deep in the earth...half a Millennium of missionary work...nice stint of fruit being gathered in...then 150 years of darkness...and then righteous raised up and literal physical burning of the earth...

Could go on...and Cleon laid out a nice template of governance for the rockies side of things...but then it would cease to be a nutshell...and certainly want to keep the nut intact...

So, given the scenario you've laid out, just how important are the mountains, and what is their role in the whole equation? I've been thinking a lot about that lately, and trying to completely wrap my mind around the strategic advantage(s) of the mountains, because at this point I'm actually having a hard time thinking that the advantage will be that the existing inhabitants of that region are simply more "righteous" than everyone else.

Next question is, exactly what/where would you define (or consider to be) "The Rockies"? Somewhere (everything?) between the Continental Divide and the Sierra Nevadas?

In Idaho, with the Snake River, etc., you might be a whole lot better off, but at this point, the whole state of Utah, for example, does not produce enough food to support its own population, so that's a factor. Same with Nevada, and probably Colorado. Shorter growing seasons and harsher winters are part of that. But, the reality is, aside from the mountains, the rest of it is a pretty arid climate that produces relatively little without irrigation. Are Utah, Colorado and Nevada capable of feeding 10,000,000 people, even on their best day? But at this point, without a whole lot of serious repentance, why would God bother to save Colorado and/or Nevada? Or even Utah, for that matter?

But if repentance is the only key, what advantage do the mountains provide? Why would repentant folks in other locations not also qualify for protection? What is it about the mountains? The "Boys from the mountains, who will ride in and save the Constitution"? What boys? What elders? Where are they?

I know we've got prophesies, but when I look at present conditions in the current state of "Zion," I'm just trying to wrap my mind around all of it, including the purported strategic advantage of the mountains in the overall divine scheme of things, and what the conditions will be that create that advantage.

Thoughts?

well the plague will help with the food demand equation...prophecy is every house in the salt lake valley will be a house of mourning...guessing that means at least one death in every household...

...not even getting into possible skirmishes...etc. Also have prophecy revolving around the chariots...and with some insider knowledge know we aren't too far from being extremely short of that energy necessity...which shuts down supply chains rapidly...and seals folks off from other folks that might have ideas of molesting them. Also prophecy of the seas becoming impassible shutting down all global trade.

I know the church has been planning for decades. Planning for a scenario in which they roll up to a cannery with a generator equipped semi...power up and run for a day then leave with the proceeds and shut everything down.

I certainly anticipate some serious rough spots with a lot of collateral damage....all of which will contribute to repentance. I recall Elder Packer putting it pretty bluntly at a stake conference his son (stake president at the time) asked him to speak at. Stating that the time would shortly come where folks would make their own clothes and essentials. Just that alone will humble a lot of people very quickly...or they'll just go the Canada route...

[Jason]

My in a nutshell guess is prophecy will be fulfilled and they will fill the pit they've dug. Part of that is them turning on each other or as the scriptures state...they'll feed on their own flesh.

System (control structure) will collapse in the process. Then it will be small scale warfare in abundance as everyone fights to conquer their own local hill and be king for the day.

Due to good folks and some repentance (plague, some good natural disasters, wars, 70 lb hailstones, etc)...along with structure and Priesthood...Zion will get created and carved out here in the rockies and will eventually spread over the rest of the land.

Europe not so lucky and just mobs of people killing each other (scorched earth). I'm also guessing that the few good folks left will group together and will be preserved by a highway created from the deep so the lost tribes can escape and cross over.

Christ will return at some point in there creating a spiritual burning that causes the dark ones that are left to try and hide themselves deep in the earth...half a Millennium of missionary work...nice stint of fruit being gathered in...then 150 years of darkness...and then righteous raised up and literal physical burning of the earth...

Could go on...and Cleon laid out a nice template of governance for the rockies side of things...but then it would cease to be a nutshell...and certainly want to keep the nut intact...

So, given the scenario you've laid out, just how important are the mountains, and what is their role in the whole equation? I've been thinking a lot about that lately, and trying to completely wrap my mind around the strategic advantage(s) of the mountains, because at this point I'm actually having a hard time thinking that the advantage will be that the existing inhabitants of that region are simply more "righteous" than everyone else.

Next question is, exactly what/where would you define (or consider to be) "The Rockies"? Somewhere (everything?) between the Continental Divide and the Sierra Nevadas?

In Idaho, with the Snake River, etc., you might be a whole lot better off, but at this point, the whole state of Utah, for example, does not produce enough food to support its own population, so that's a factor. Same with Nevada, and probably Colorado. Shorter growing seasons and harsher winters are part of that. But, the reality is, aside from the mountains, the rest of it is a pretty arid climate that produces relatively little without irrigation. Are Utah, Colorado and Nevada capable of feeding 10,000,000 people, even on their best day? But at this point, without a whole lot of serious repentance, why would God bother to save Colorado and/or Nevada? Or even Utah, for that matter?

But if repentance is the only key, what advantage do the mountains provide? Why would repentant folks in other locations not also qualify for protection? What is it about the mountains? The "Boys from the mountains, who will ride in and save the Constitution"? What boys? What elders? Where are they?

I know we've got prophesies, but when I look at present conditions in the current state of "Zion," I'm just trying to wrap my mind around all of it, including the purported strategic advantage of the mountains in the overall divine scheme of things, and what the conditions will be that create that advantage.

Thoughts?

Given that we know that the destructions decreed begin among the Saints:

D&C 112:23 darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people, and all flesh has become corrupt before my face.
24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.
25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;
26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

AND given that the bulk of the concentrated population of the Church will probably remain in Utah, I think it's safe to assume Utah is set for some kind of wonderful destruction. From the wording of this section, a plague seems to fit the best, since it "begins" and then "goes forth". That sounds like a plague, right? It doesn't sound like an earthquake, or a meteor, or a flood - in fact, we know from other scriptures that a flood over the whole earth is not in the plan since it already happened and was promised to never happen again.

Fire, however, IS in the plan.

physical fire doesn't come till the very end...after the millennium...

[BeNotDeceived]

how do the mountains factor into the equation? It has long been believed that the mountains would provide some form/level of protection. So, I need someone who feels like they’ve got a handle on it to talk me through it.

Miles high tsunamis when the earth reels to and fro like a drunken man is my theory.

Well, I did just move from a place only a few miles north of the tsunami warning center to mere miles from tornado aisle. At least I don’t have to worry about a tsunami, anytime soon, and maybe never.

[Jason]

I just watched the video. I find it very interesting, and it does in fact really start to speak to some of the stuff I'm specifically asking about. I've been thinking a lot about this lately.

The last month or so I've been spending a fair amount of time on and around the Navajo Reservation and the Grand Canyon. At some point in my travels, a vision opened in my mind's eye about the natural conditions that I feel like would have needed to exist to create that landscape, including the Grand Canyon.

Instead of simply billions of years of very gradual erosion, what I saw was a massive inundation of water actually coming down along the West side of the Rockies, that would have flowed to and created much of the existing landscape on the Navajo reservation, and carved out the Grand Canyon.

Since then, one of my friends told me about a guy by the name of Graham Hancock who talks to Joe Rogan a lot, and has done a controversial documentary series where he talks about his theory that at some point, during the Ice Age, a comet hit somewhere in the Northern Rockies, and ended up changing the climate and a whole bunch of landscape, by, among other things, quickly melting such large glaciers and ice fields that it created massive flooding that would have completely inundated that whole area, creating Lake Bonneville in the Great Basin, with essentially all the rest of the water accumulating in the Snake/Columbia and Green/Colorado Rivers, and ultimately carving out the Grand Canyon and Columbia River Gorge as massive amounts of water rushed toward the Pacific Ocean.

Once I understood the theory, it seemed to be consistent with the vision I had seen in my mind's eye of what had happened at that time.

That is part of the reason why I am now attempting to better understand likely scenarios at this point that would cause the mountains to be a strategic advantage -- because to be completely honest, that would not have necessarily been the case at that time. The Wasatch and Sierra Nevada mountains trapped that inundation in the Great Basin and prevented it from subsiding for a very long time. Consequently, almost all but the highest valleys within those mountains would have been completely inundated with no where for the water to go for centuries.

So, based on our long-revered prophesies, etc., theories that show how/why the mountains in that same area would now (this time around) hold back a massive inundation of water from the oceans are definitely interesting to me, because that is essentially the only genuinely strategic advantage I can realistically envision for these mountains at this point — unless you simply can’t live without skiing, snowboarding, and snowmobiling, of course.

Other thoughts?

3 Nephi 8

[Silver Pie]

physical fire doesn't come till the very end...after the millennium...

I've wondered that same thing. Jesus' coming at the beginning is supposed to burn the wicked, but there was a scripture I read recently (don't recall which one, now. Perhaps in Revelation) that made it sound like it was after the millennium that the whole earth would be burnt up.

[Silver Pie]

Well, I did just move from a place only a few miles north of the tsunami warning center to mere miles from tornado aisle. At least I don’t have to worry about a tsunami, anytime soon, and maybe never.

Then as long as you're not actually in tornado aisle, you should be good. There are so many places where one can be in serious danger from nature.

[Jason]

physical fire doesn't come till the very end...after the millennium...

I've wondered that same thing. Jesus' coming at the beginning is supposed to burn the wicked, but there was a scripture I read recently (don't recall which one, now. Perhaps in Revelation) that made it sound like it was after the millennium that the whole earth would be burnt up.

Allegory of Zenos...Jacob Chapter 5

Jesus coming brings a spiritual burning...which probably can be just as or more effective than physical fire...and drive the worst into the rocks in hiding...

Zeezrom was on his death bed with a spiritual burning before Alma and Amulek came to the rescue...

[Silver Pie]

Allegory of Zenos...Jacob Chapter 5

Jesus coming brings a spiritual burning...which probably can be just as or more effective than physical fire...and drive the worst into the rocks in hiding...

Zeezrom was on his death bed with a spiritual burning before Alma and Amulek came to the rescue...

Ah I never thought of it that way. Makes sense.

[mudflap]

My in a nutshell guess is prophecy will be fulfilled and they will fill the pit they've dug. Part of that is them turning on each other or as the scriptures state...they'll feed on their own flesh.

System (control structure) will collapse in the process. Then it will be small scale warfare in abundance as everyone fights to conquer their own local hill and be king for the day.

Due to good folks and some repentance (plague, some good natural disasters, wars, 70 lb hailstones, etc)...along with structure and Priesthood...Zion will get created and carved out here in the rockies and will eventually spread over the rest of the land.

Europe not so lucky and just mobs of people killing each other (scorched earth). I'm also guessing that the few good folks left will group together and will be preserved by a highway created from the deep so the lost tribes can escape and cross over.

Christ will return at some point in there creating a spiritual burning that causes the dark ones that are left to try and hide themselves deep in the earth...half a Millennium of missionary work...nice stint of fruit being gathered in...then 150 years of darkness...and then righteous raised up and literal physical burning of the earth...

Could go on...and Cleon laid out a nice template of governance for the rockies side of things...but then it would cease to be a nutshell...and certainly want to keep the nut intact...

So, given the scenario you've laid out, just how important are the mountains, and what is their role in the whole equation? I've been thinking a lot about that lately, and trying to completely wrap my mind around the strategic advantage(s) of the mountains, because at this point I'm actually having a hard time thinking that the advantage will be that the existing inhabitants of that region are simply more "righteous" than everyone else.

Next question is, exactly what/where would you define (or consider to be) "The Rockies"? Somewhere (everything?) between the Continental Divide and the Sierra Nevadas?

In Idaho, with the Snake River, etc., you might be a whole lot better off, but at this point, the whole state of Utah, for example, does not produce enough food to support its own population, so that's a factor. Same with Nevada, and probably Colorado. Shorter growing seasons and harsher winters are part of that. But, the reality is, aside from the mountains, the rest of it is a pretty arid climate that produces relatively little without irrigation. Are Utah, Colorado and Nevada capable of feeding 10,000,000 people, even on their best day? But at this point, without a whole lot of serious repentance, why would God bother to save Colorado and/or Nevada? Or even Utah, for that matter?

But if repentance is the only key, what advantage do the mountains provide? Why would repentant folks in other locations not also qualify for protection? What is it about the mountains? The "Boys from the mountains, who will ride in and save the Constitution"? What boys? What elders? Where are they?

I know we've got prophesies, but when I look at present conditions in the current state of "Zion," I'm just trying to wrap my mind around all of it, including the purported strategic advantage of the mountains in the overall divine scheme of things, and what the conditions will be that create that advantage.

Thoughts?

Given that we know that the destructions decreed begin among the Saints:

D&C 112:23 darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people, and all flesh has become corrupt before my face.
24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.
25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;
26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

AND given that the bulk of the concentrated population of the Church will probably remain in Utah, I think it's safe to assume Utah is set for some kind of wonderful destruction. From the wording of this section, a plague seems to fit the best, since it "begins" and then "goes forth". That sounds like a plague, right? It doesn't sound like an earthquake, or a meteor, or a flood - in fact, we know from other scriptures that a flood over the whole earth is not in the plan since it already happened and was promised to never happen again.

Fire, however, IS in the plan.

physical fire doesn't come till the very end...after the millennium...

No, it will be both - at His coming - the Second Coming. Then later, after he dwells with men for a thousand years; we read about the elements melting with fervent heat (so there will be two burnings):

This one is the most specific for the 2nd coming fire:

D&C 64:23:Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.

Also in Malachi 4, and Revelation 20, D&C 29 (v 21 talks about the wicked being burned by fire, then later in v 23 we can read about the earth being "consumed" after the thousand years is over - by fire, we learn in Revelation), and also in Ezekiel, and Isaiah.

[BeNotDeceived]

So, given the scenario you've laid out, just how important are the mountains, and what is their role in the whole equation? I've been thinking a lot about that lately, and trying to completely wrap my mind around the strategic advantage(s) of the mountains, because at this point I'm actually having a hard time thinking that the advantage will be that the existing inhabitants of that region are simply more "righteous" than everyone else.

Next question is, exactly what/where would you define (or consider to be) "The Rockies"? Somewhere (everything?) between the Continental Divide and the Sierra Nevadas?

In Idaho, with the Snake River, etc., you might be a whole lot better off, but at this point, the whole state of Utah, for example, does not produce enough food to support its own population, so that's a factor. Same with Nevada, and probably Colorado. Shorter growing seasons and harsher winters are part of that. But, the reality is, aside from the mountains, the rest of it is a pretty arid climate that produces relatively little without irrigation. Are Utah, Colorado and Nevada capable of feeding 10,000,000 people, even on their best day? But at this point, without a whole lot of serious repentance, why would God bother to save Colorado and/or Nevada? Or even Utah, for that matter?

But if repentance is the only key, what advantage do the mountains provide? Why would repentant folks in other locations not also qualify for protection? What is it about the mountains? The "Boys from the mountains, who will ride in and save the Constitution"? What boys? What elders? Where are they?

I know we've got prophesies, but when I look at present conditions in the current state of "Zion," I'm just trying to wrap my mind around all of it, including the purported strategic advantage of the mountains in the overall divine scheme of things, and what the conditions will be that create that advantage.

Thoughts?

Given that we know that the destructions decreed begin among the Saints:

D&C 112:23 darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people, and all flesh has become corrupt before my face.
24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.
25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;
26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

AND given that the bulk of the concentrated population of the Church will probably remain in Utah, I think it's safe to assume Utah is set for some kind of wonderful destruction. From the wording of this section, a plague seems to fit the best, since it "begins" and then "goes forth". That sounds like a plague, right? It doesn't sound like an earthquake, or a meteor, or a flood - in fact, we know from other scriptures that a flood over the whole earth is not in the plan since it already happened and was promised to never happen again.

Fire, however, IS in the plan.

physical fire doesn't come till the very end...after the millennium...

No, it will be both - at His coming - the Second Coming. Then later, after he dwells with men for a thousand years; we read about the elements melting with fervent heat (so there will be two burnings):

This one is the most specific for the 2nd coming fire:

D&C 64:23:Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.

Also in Malachi 4, and Revelation 20, D&C 29 (v 21 talks about the wicked being burned by fire, then later in v 23 we can read about the earth being "consumed" after the thousand years is over - by fire, we learn in Revelation), and also in Ezekiel, and Isaiah.

Most things happen in twos, such as bookends as has been described here.

[mudflap]

ACTUAL fire can burn you, as we all know, as does Abinadi and King Noah. But ACTUAL fire can also NOT burn you, as we read in Daniel.

Spiritual fire can burn you, as Zeezrom knows, and can also NOT burn you as we read in Helaman 5:44.

We can get into the philosophies of "what is fire?", but I'm pretty satisfied that whether it's physical or spiritual fire at His Second Coming, it won't matter - if you're wicked, you will burn just as if you were paper. The effect will be the same. There will be fire at the Second Coming. It will preserve the righteous, and it will eliminate the wicked.

The only way to have a worldwide Zion society is to physically and utterly destroy those whose hearts can't or won't handle it. Fire is a pretty effective method of getting the job done.

[hedgehog]

Just seeing news about car repo numbers jumping.

[Jason]

So, given the scenario you've laid out, just how important are the mountains, and what is their role in the whole equation? I've been thinking a lot about that lately, and trying to completely wrap my mind around the strategic advantage(s) of the mountains, because at this point I'm actually having a hard time thinking that the advantage will be that the existing inhabitants of that region are simply more "righteous" than everyone else.

Next question is, exactly what/where would you define (or consider to be) "The Rockies"? Somewhere (everything?) between the Continental Divide and the Sierra Nevadas?

In Idaho, with the Snake River, etc., you might be a whole lot better off, but at this point, the whole state of Utah, for example, does not produce enough food to support its own population, so that's a factor. Same with Nevada, and probably Colorado. Shorter growing seasons and harsher winters are part of that. But, the reality is, aside from the mountains, the rest of it is a pretty arid climate that produces relatively little without irrigation. Are Utah, Colorado and Nevada capable of feeding 10,000,000 people, even on their best day? But at this point, without a whole lot of serious repentance, why would God bother to save Colorado and/or Nevada? Or even Utah, for that matter?

But if repentance is the only key, what advantage do the mountains provide? Why would repentant folks in other locations not also qualify for protection? What is it about the mountains? The "Boys from the mountains, who will ride in and save the Constitution"? What boys? What elders? Where are they?

I know we've got prophesies, but when I look at present conditions in the current state of "Zion," I'm just trying to wrap my mind around all of it, including the purported strategic advantage of the mountains in the overall divine scheme of things, and what the conditions will be that create that advantage.

Thoughts?

Given that we know that the destructions decreed begin among the Saints:

D&C 112:23 darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people, and all flesh has become corrupt before my face.
24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.
25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;
26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

AND given that the bulk of the concentrated population of the Church will probably remain in Utah, I think it's safe to assume Utah is set for some kind of wonderful destruction. From the wording of this section, a plague seems to fit the best, since it "begins" and then "goes forth". That sounds like a plague, right? It doesn't sound like an earthquake, or a meteor, or a flood - in fact, we know from other scriptures that a flood over the whole earth is not in the plan since it already happened and was promised to never happen again.

Fire, however, IS in the plan.

physical fire doesn't come till the very end...after the millennium...

No, it will be both - at His coming - the Second Coming. Then later, after he dwells with men for a thousand years; we read about the elements melting with fervent heat (so there will be two burnings):

This one is the most specific for the 2nd coming fire:

D&C 64:23:Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.

Also in Malachi 4, and Revelation 20, D&C 29 (v 21 talks about the wicked being burned by fire, then later in v 23 we can read about the earth being "consumed" after the thousand years is over - by fire, we learn in Revelation), and also in Ezekiel, and Isaiah.

Again there is spiritual fire and physical fire...perhaps both...perhaps one then the other...

All I know is missionary work will still be needed after the 2nd coming for roughly 500 years to get everyone converted...much like it took 40-50 years to convert everyone in the America's after Christ came that time...

[Jason]

Just seeing news about car repo numbers jumping.

...just the very tip of a very large iceberg...avg car payment is $1k/month now...

[hedgehog]

Having grown up there, believe it is still widely called Tornado Alley. Like an alley between two buildings, rather than aisle like a lane at the grocery store. Though either fit.



Tornados are uniquely interesting compared to say the area destruction of earthquakes or hurricanes. Tornados can wreak total destruction on a house wiping it clean down the foundation. And the houses on either side are fine. Then hop a block and pull the same trick again. Even if a tornado hits your neighborhood you still have a solid dice roll of escaping damage, however your neighbors will certainly need you and you may find anything from cars to bodies up in your trees.

Hope you have a basement. Of course those also flood every 5-20 years.