Tithing

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The Red Pill
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Re: Tithing

Post by The Red Pill »

Ebenezer wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:18 pm
— “is more of a sense of commitment than it is the church needing the money,”
Well hells bells...if the Church DOESN'T need the money...which they obviously DON'T...why are they going against what Joseph F. Smith said in 1906...about the church would no longer need members to pay tithing or donate, when the church was strong financially??

"Commitment" can ONLY be measured in cash??

What a joke...we end up with exactly what we have. A bunch of lying, cheating, dishonest crooks...who never miss church and pay tithing like clockwork..

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Silver Pie
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Re: Tithing

Post by Silver Pie »

FoxMammaWisdom wrote: January 27th, 2023, 3:16 am Is Granny's house and all her bills paid off? All her medical expenses paid off? Money in the bank to pay for any future needs like more medical expenses? How about her family and other responsibilities, do they all have their needs met and no debts or burdens? How about her funeral, is there money in the bank to pay for that? How about all the other life expenses granny is going to need? Unless granny is rolling in it cruising around the world before she dies, she doesn't owe the church a thing. She's not making a profit just because she has some leftover. And she doesn't even need to calculate it more than yearly and decide if she actually made a profit that year or if her household breaks even, or is still going to be needing some operating expenses for the next year.

And we could apply the same thing to single parents, families with kiddos, etc. How many are actually making a profit every year? And how many are paying on guilt and manipulation by a church who says we should pay our tithing before we feed our children?
👏🏽 Well said, FoxMama.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Tithing

Post by Silver Pie »

FoxMammaWisdom wrote: January 27th, 2023, 1:52 pm the church needs to shut up and quit manipulating people into keeping it rich.
💥


Surely that behavior will be leading a lot of leaders to hell if they haven't/don't repent of it.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Tithing

Post by Silver Pie »

Ebenezer wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:18 pm Roger Clarke, the big boss at Ensign Peak, said in a WSJ article that the slush fund was kept secret because if we knew about it we wouldn't pay tithing:
👀 😲

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TheDuke
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Re: Tithing

Post by TheDuke »

The church does not, nor never has taught that 10% of your income is tithing. There are some leaders that seem to put it that way, like my bishop 25 years ago. But, when they finally read the churches official statement it says "increase" and it is up to you to determine that. And you can pay $1 right there and declare it full and they cannot argue with you. BTW where does it say you need to be a full tithe payer all the time, either.

I agree they leave if vague to loop in the simpleton's and innocent people. This has always aggravated me. but, it is only a few leaders that say such crap. BTW anyone that owns a business knows this makes little sense and doesn't can not even be computed. If you work for someone else as a full-time job, then maybe the "gross" concept of pay. but, that would be like 50% or less of most people. Between the self employed, retired, unemployed, I'd say the statement of income hits only a few as stated below.

I know some on here really want to use these few less than righteous leaders and statements as a whip for the entire church, but as shown above from early leaders and from current LDS formal discussions, it doesn't hold water. BTW anyone truly ready for temple should be able to figure this out on their own with a bit of study and even if they have an over enthusiastic bishop.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Tithing

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: January 27th, 2023, 6:30 pm The church does not, nor never has taught that 10% of your income is tithing.
Are you sure about that?

“For Latter-day Saints, tithing is a natural and integrated aspect of their religious belief and practice. By the biblical definition, tithing is one-tenth, and Church members interpret this as a tenth of their “increase,” or income, annually. It is paid on the honor system.”

Straight from the horse’s mouth: https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... r%20system.

BTW, Duke, you’ll find this same definition all over the place in church manuals, material, and talks. It’s everywhere.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Tithing

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Elder John A. Widtsoe’s talk entitled “What is an honest tithing?”

“Tithing means one-tenth. Those who give less do not really pay tithing; they are lesser contributors to the Latter-day cause of the Lord. Tithing means one-tenth of a person’s income, interest, or increase. The merchant should pay tithing upon the net income of his business, the farmer upon the net income of his farming operations; the wage earner or salaried man upon the wage or salary earned by him. Out of the remaining nine-tenths he pays his current expenses … etc. To deduct living costs … and similar expenses from the income and pay tithing upon the remainder does not conform to the Lord’s commandment. Under such a system most people would show nothing on which to pay tithing. There is really no place for quibbling on this point. Tithing should be given upon the basis of our full earned income. If the nature of a business requires special interpretation, the tithepayer should consult the father of his ward, the bishop.” (Evidences and Reconciliations, 2:86.)

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TheDuke
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Re: Tithing

Post by TheDuke »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 27th, 2023, 6:34 pm
TheDuke wrote: January 27th, 2023, 6:30 pm The church does not, nor never has taught that 10% of your income is tithing.
Are you sure about that?

“For Latter-day Saints, tithing is a natural and integrated aspect of their religious belief and practice. By the biblical definition, tithing is one-tenth, and Church members interpret this as a tenth of their “increase,” or income, annually. It is paid on the honor system.”

Straight from the horse’s mouth: https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... r%20system.

BTW, Duke, you’ll find this same definition all over the place in church manuals, material, and talks. It’s everywhere.
I see your claim and have several comments. First, you pick some LDS website, that is always good for finding true doctrine. Second, even there is says income or increase. I suppose if your income equals your increase,,,, fine, but for those with expenses vs a free ride, increase is less than income.


I agree the church likes to be fuzzy, but the bishop has a statement and it is the formal policy and it is very clear that it is "increase" or "interest" if you will and if you want to pay on "income" (if you are an employee or some kind of net if you're a businessman) it will be sufficient. .... but not necessary.

Again, you're looking for a nail as you're carrying around a hammer.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Tithing

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Chew on this Duke. I’m not pulling from “Radom” LDS websites. These are THE church websites, owned and operated. Oh, and they didn’t include “increase” in this one. Can’t have that one getting in the way.

“The Bible indicates that God’s people followed the law of tithing anciently; through modern prophets, God restored this law once again to bless His children. To fulfill this commandment, Church members give one-tenth of their income to the Lord through His Church. These funds are used to build up the Church and further the work of the Lord throughout the world.”

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... g?lang=eng
Last edited by Reluctant Watchman on January 27th, 2023, 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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TheDuke
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Re: Tithing

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 27th, 2023, 6:38 pm Elder John A. Widtsoe’s talk entitled “What is an honest tithing?”

“Tithing means one-tenth. Those who give less do not really pay tithing; they are lesser contributors to the Latter-day cause of the Lord. Tithing means one-tenth of a person’s income, interest, or increase. The merchant should pay tithing upon the net income of his business, the farmer upon the net income of his farming operations; the wage earner or salaried man upon the wage or salary earned by him. Out of the remaining nine-tenths he pays his current expenses … etc. To deduct living costs … and similar expenses from the income and pay tithing upon the remainder does not conform to the Lord’s commandment. Under such a system most people would show nothing on which to pay tithing. There is really no place for quibbling on this point. Tithing should be given upon the basis of our full earned income. If the nature of a business requires special interpretation, the tithepayer should consult the father of his ward, the bishop.” (Evidences and Reconciliations, 2:86.)
Again, quoting a dead apostle. I can quote a hundred that will say what is said in the above threads and you can quote a hundred that say what you want. But, none are either policy or what is stated in the (old terminology) tithing settlement.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Tithing

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

“ The word tithe means “a tenth part.” Tithing is a donation, or offering, of one-tenth of your income for the service of God.”

THE church website: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... g?lang=eng

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Tithing

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

“ To pay a full tithe, you give one-tenth of your income to the Lord through His Church. You submit your tithing to a member of your bishopric or branch presidency.”

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... g?lang=eng

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Tithing

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Oh, how silly of me to quote some long-forgotten Widtsoe dude. The church really likes to quote him though:

“ Elder John A. Widtsoe explained: “Tithing means one-tenth. Those who give less do not really pay tithing; they are lesser contributors to the Latter-day cause of the Lord. Tithing means one-tenth of a person’s income, interest, or increase. The merchant should pay tithing upon the net income of his business, the farmer upon the net income of his farming operations; the wage earner or salaried man upon the wage or salary earned by him. Out of the remaining nine-tenths he pays his current expenses … etc. To deduct living costs … and similar expenses from the income and pay tithing upon the remainder does not conform to the Lord’s commandment. Under such a system most people would show nothing on which to pay tithing. There is really no place for quibbling on this point. Tithing should be given upon the basis of our full earned income. If the nature of a business requires special interpretation, the tithepayer should consult the father of his ward, the bishop.” (Evidences and Reconciliations, 2:86.)”

Student Manual 2002

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/man ... g?lang=eng

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Tithing

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: January 27th, 2023, 6:42 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 27th, 2023, 6:38 pm Elder John A. Widtsoe’s talk entitled “What is an honest tithing?”

“Tithing means one-tenth. Those who give less do not really pay tithing; they are lesser contributors to the Latter-day cause of the Lord. Tithing means one-tenth of a person’s income, interest, or increase. The merchant should pay tithing upon the net income of his business, the farmer upon the net income of his farming operations; the wage earner or salaried man upon the wage or salary earned by him. Out of the remaining nine-tenths he pays his current expenses … etc. To deduct living costs … and similar expenses from the income and pay tithing upon the remainder does not conform to the Lord’s commandment. Under such a system most people would show nothing on which to pay tithing. There is really no place for quibbling on this point. Tithing should be given upon the basis of our full earned income. If the nature of a business requires special interpretation, the tithepayer should consult the father of his ward, the bishop.” (Evidences and Reconciliations, 2:86.)
Again, quoting a dead apostle. I can quote a hundred that will say what is said in the above threads and you can quote a hundred that say what you want. But, none are either policy or what is stated in the (old terminology) tithing settlement.
When you have “living” prophets, we don’t care about “old terminology.” A living prophet is more important that the scriptures, and those dudes have been dead a long time.

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TheDuke
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Re: Tithing

Post by TheDuke »

One more thing, and I'm not from Utah, and have been in High Priests group for many years vs. Elders or RS, but we had tithing lessons almost every year at one point and it was always very clear in our discussions for as long as I can remember that straight 10% of income (again assuming employee where income can be measured) has never been mandated but is a "cannot fail" statement or high water mark. I feel anyone who has been around and doesn't know that would be same folks that sue in 2020's claiming they never knew cigarettes are bad, or are still building things with asbestos and getting cancer........ But, there are always low intellect folks that cannot or will not understand, those are the ones I feel sorry for and seem to get confused.

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TheDuke
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Re: Tithing

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 27th, 2023, 6:50 pm
TheDuke wrote: January 27th, 2023, 6:42 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 27th, 2023, 6:38 pm Elder John A. Widtsoe’s talk entitled “What is an honest tithing?”

“Tithing means one-tenth. Those who give less do not really pay tithing; they are lesser contributors to the Latter-day cause of the Lord. Tithing means one-tenth of a person’s income, interest, or increase. The merchant should pay tithing upon the net income of his business, the farmer upon the net income of his farming operations; the wage earner or salaried man upon the wage or salary earned by him. Out of the remaining nine-tenths he pays his current expenses … etc. To deduct living costs … and similar expenses from the income and pay tithing upon the remainder does not conform to the Lord’s commandment. Under such a system most people would show nothing on which to pay tithing. There is really no place for quibbling on this point. Tithing should be given upon the basis of our full earned income. If the nature of a business requires special interpretation, the tithepayer should consult the father of his ward, the bishop.” (Evidences and Reconciliations, 2:86.)
Again, quoting a dead apostle. I can quote a hundred that will say what is said in the above threads and you can quote a hundred that say what you want. But, none are either policy or what is stated in the (old terminology) tithing settlement.
When you have “living” prophets, we don’t care about “old terminology.” A living prophet is more important that the scriptures, and those dudes have been dead a long time.
Guess you are carrying your axe along with your hammer? (adding in the follow the prophet axe that is)

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Tithing

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

“Tithing is the donation of one-tenth of one’s income to God’s Church. This commandment has been known since Old Testament times. The prophet Malachi taught the importance of tithing and the blessings that come from obeying this law.”

Tithing Pamphlet: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... g?lang=eng

Duke, the point I’m making here is that your claim was made in error. And guess what? I don’t judge you for that. What I find interesting is that many members have one idea or definition for things, and often the church has a very different definition or interpretation.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Tithing

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: January 27th, 2023, 6:54 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 27th, 2023, 6:50 pm
TheDuke wrote: January 27th, 2023, 6:42 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 27th, 2023, 6:38 pm Elder John A. Widtsoe’s talk entitled “What is an honest tithing?”

“Tithing means one-tenth. Those who give less do not really pay tithing; they are lesser contributors to the Latter-day cause of the Lord. Tithing means one-tenth of a person’s income, interest, or increase. The merchant should pay tithing upon the net income of his business, the farmer upon the net income of his farming operations; the wage earner or salaried man upon the wage or salary earned by him. Out of the remaining nine-tenths he pays his current expenses … etc. To deduct living costs … and similar expenses from the income and pay tithing upon the remainder does not conform to the Lord’s commandment. Under such a system most people would show nothing on which to pay tithing. There is really no place for quibbling on this point. Tithing should be given upon the basis of our full earned income. If the nature of a business requires special interpretation, the tithepayer should consult the father of his ward, the bishop.” (Evidences and Reconciliations, 2:86.)
Again, quoting a dead apostle. I can quote a hundred that will say what is said in the above threads and you can quote a hundred that say what you want. But, none are either policy or what is stated in the (old terminology) tithing settlement.
When you have “living” prophets, we don’t care about “old terminology.” A living prophet is more important that the scriptures, and those dudes have been dead a long time.
Guess you are carrying your axe along with your hammer? (adding in the follow the prophet axe that is)
No, I just have a general distaste for false doctrine.

Speaking of follow the profit: https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/hand-foot-eye
Last edited by Reluctant Watchman on January 27th, 2023, 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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LDS Physician
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Re: Tithing

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Dusty Wanderer wrote: January 26th, 2023, 3:47 pm
LDS Physician wrote: January 26th, 2023, 2:47 pm
silverado wrote: January 26th, 2023, 2:22 pm
Robin Hood wrote: January 26th, 2023, 1:50 pm Tithing should be paid on increase.
So she pays on what's left after her medical bills. If there's nothing left she pays nothing but can still in effect claim to be a tithe payer.
That makes sense, but I don't think that is what she was taught (she is a newish member). Do you know any scriptures that back that up?
As a bishop, I had a blind convert who lived on about $750 per month. After all of her expenses were paid (she was completely reliant on the government for income), she had about $20 left per month. I told her that tithing paid on that $20 was all that was expected.

I very well may have been wrong about that as a bishop back then, as I have learned much since then. Still, that "feels right by the Holy Ghost" as Elder Renlund invokes.
Thanks for sharing this, and nice reference. ;-) What have you learned since then that may cast doubt on your judgement? FWIW, I think you were spot on.
Kind of you. I have learned that she likely shouldn't even be paying tithing on that amount.

And personally, I've learned that no one should really be paying any more tithing to this corporation. When they're spending it on resorts in Maui, checks to the NAACP, $2 billion malls in SLC, etc etc ... your tithing funds aren't going where they should be.

I send my "interest" elsewhere.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Tithing

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: January 27th, 2023, 6:30 pm The church does not, nor never has taught that 10% of your income is tithing.
You still sticking with that story?

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Silver Pie
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Re: Tithing

Post by Silver Pie »

TheDuke wrote: January 27th, 2023, 6:30 pm these few less than righteous leaders and statements as a whip for the entire church
This reminds me of the last temple recommend I got. Our bills were being paid by my kids' social security (their retired dad had died), and I finally decided it wasn't my money, so I really had no right to pay tithing on it. I had no income of my own at that time. Our ward had been split and we (the poor side of town) were put in a ward that was in the next town over (I'd guess a 1 1/2 to 2 hour walk for me), and the stake president's office was in our town (about 30-35 minute walk away). The stake really wanted temple recommend holders and mine had lapsed. They sent over a bishop's counselor to interview me. For the tithing question, I said I had no income, but if I did, I would pay tithing. For the church attendance question, I said I was going to the building closest to me (about 15 min walk) as I had no car, and that I figured that was me doing all I could for myself. He had no problem with the tithing answer and for the attendance answer, he said it was better to do that than not attend at all. Later, I walked over to the stake offices (this is where I attended before they split the ward). Same questions. Same answers. Same responses from a stake counselor.

So, it really is leadership roulette. Some are very good and some are pretty much heartless. I think it runs the gamut from one to the other. Mostly, my leaders have run from okay to good to awesome. I don't know that I've gotten a horrid one like FoxMamma and (Buffalo Girl?) and others on here. It can make one's blood boil, though, to see the unnecessary extra suffering that has been afflicted on the suffering.

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LDS Physician
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Re: Tithing

Post by LDS Physician »

creator wrote: January 27th, 2023, 9:08 am
LDS Physician wrote: January 26th, 2023, 2:47 pm As a bishop, I had a blind convert who lived on about $750 per month. After all of her expenses were paid (she was completely reliant on the government for income), she had about $20 left per month. I told her that tithing paid on that $20 was all that was expected.

I very well may have been wrong about that as a bishop back then, as I have learned much since then. Still, that "feels right by the Holy Ghost" as Elder Renlund invokes.
If you were wrong it might have only been because maybe she actually didn't owe anything in tithing. :) Sounds like you did good.
TYVM. I wasn't fully "awake" at that time, but sometimes heard and followed the spirit, heh heh.

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TheDuke
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Re: Tithing

Post by TheDuke »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 27th, 2023, 6:59 pm
TheDuke wrote: January 27th, 2023, 6:30 pm The church does not, nor never has taught that 10% of your income is tithing.
You still sticking with that story?
yes.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Tithing

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: January 28th, 2023, 10:39 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 27th, 2023, 6:59 pm
TheDuke wrote: January 27th, 2023, 6:30 pm The church does not, nor never has taught that 10% of your income is tithing.
You still sticking with that story?
yes.
LOL

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Robin Hood
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Re: Tithing

Post by Robin Hood »

LDS Physician wrote: January 26th, 2023, 2:47 pm
silverado wrote: January 26th, 2023, 2:22 pm
Robin Hood wrote: January 26th, 2023, 1:50 pm Tithing should be paid on increase.
So she pays on what's left after her medical bills. If there's nothing left she pays nothing but can still in effect claim to be a tithe payer.
That makes sense, but I don't think that is what she was taught (she is a newish member). Do you know any scriptures that back that up?
Doctrine & Covenants 119:3-4
“And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people. And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.”

As a bishop, I had a blind convert who lived on about $750 per month. After all of her expenses were paid (she was completely reliant on the government for income), she had about $20 left per month. I told her that tithing paid on that $20 was all that was expected.

I very well may have been wrong about that as a bishop back then, as I have learned much since then. Still, that "feels right by the Holy Ghost" as Elder Renlund invokes.

The member determines if they are a full tithe payer. At tithing settlement, bishops are simply to ask the member if they consider themselves full, partial, or not tithe payers. We don't look at the total amount or discuss how they come to the conclusion that they did.
I had a number of people in the ward who relied on the government for their income so I did the same.
I told them the government didn't give them money so they could turn 10% of it over to the church. It was basic subsistence at best. I encouraged them, as I did with everyone, to be wise stewards, and to pay 10% on their surplus once they had met their needs. It was up to them to determine their needs.
I also encouraged people to pay annually if they could.
Last edited by Robin Hood on January 29th, 2023, 3:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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