This is new to me. Hmm.endlessQuestions wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 11:49 am This one seems promising:
Jan 6, 2022 — Joseph Smith's family had been engaged in counterfeiting ('passing' the bills) since at least the 1810s; Joseph Smith Jr. since the 1820s; while .
https://www.andreanolen.com/home/the-mo ... mon-youngs
Looks like there are whole books on the topic:
Mormon involvement in organized crime is a topic that is rarely discussed in legacy media, so I will provide some history to this phenomenon. Two excellent books on the subject are Secret Combinations: Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting 1800-1847, by Kathleen Kimball Melonakos and A Nation of Counterfeiters: Capitalists, Con Men, and the Making of the United States by Stephen Mihm.
Joseph Smith missing for some time?
- Cruiserdude
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- Location: SEKS
Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?
- Niemand
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 13997
Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?
Maybe best to see it through the lens of the time. Today's LDS are ultra-conformist and tied in with the world. The LDS back then were rebellious against secular government or at least sceptical of a government which was persecuting them.Cruiserdude wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 1:57 pmThis is new to me. Hmm.endlessQuestions wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 11:49 am This one seems promising:
Jan 6, 2022 — Joseph Smith's family had been engaged in counterfeiting ('passing' the bills) since at least the 1810s; Joseph Smith Jr. since the 1820s; while .
https://www.andreanolen.com/home/the-mo ... mon-youngs
Looks like there are whole books on the topic:
Mormon involvement in organized crime is a topic that is rarely discussed in legacy media, so I will provide some history to this phenomenon. Two excellent books on the subject are Secret Combinations: Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting 1800-1847, by Kathleen Kimball Melonakos and A Nation of Counterfeiters: Capitalists, Con Men, and the Making of the United States by Stephen Mihm.
There is also the case of the so called Mormon Mafia around Howard Hughes but that is another story.
-
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6426
Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?
A story partially told in the "Apostle or Aristocrat" thread, accompanied by primary source documents from the CIA that were FOIA'd at some point.Niemand wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 2:04 pmMaybe best to see it through the lens of the time. Today's LDS are ultra-conformist and tied in with the world. The LDS back then were rebellious against secular government or at least sceptical of a government which was persecuting them.Cruiserdude wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 1:57 pmThis is new to me. Hmm.endlessQuestions wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 11:49 am This one seems promising:
Jan 6, 2022 — Joseph Smith's family had been engaged in counterfeiting ('passing' the bills) since at least the 1810s; Joseph Smith Jr. since the 1820s; while .
https://www.andreanolen.com/home/the-mo ... mon-youngs
Looks like there are whole books on the topic:
Mormon involvement in organized crime is a topic that is rarely discussed in legacy media, so I will provide some history to this phenomenon. Two excellent books on the subject are Secret Combinations: Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting 1800-1847, by Kathleen Kimball Melonakos and A Nation of Counterfeiters: Capitalists, Con Men, and the Making of the United States by Stephen Mihm.
There is also the case of the so called Mormon Mafia around Howard Hughes but that is another story.
-
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6426
Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?
I'd sure love to have a date on that picture.Dusty Wanderer wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 1:56 pmAn interesting thing I saw was accusations of Oliver C's involvement in the counterfeiting. But in 1845, long after he's been gone and a year after Joseph's murder, charges continue to follow Brigham, among others both in and kicked-out of the church. What a web to untangle, if that's even possible.endlessQuestions wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 11:59 am Just one more, and I'll leave it for you. This specifically mentions Joseph fleeing:
"Chester is only 8 miles from Kirtland, Ohio, epicenter of the infamous 1837 Mormon counterfeiting scandal surrounding the ‘Kirtland Saftey Society’ I described above. When this scandal erupted in November the Mormons— including Joseph Smith Jr.— were run out of town.
Louisa Miner and Stephen Young had their first child, Danl [he used “Daniel” after 1870], on August 12th, 1838 in Stephenson County, Illinois. Therefore, Louisa and Stephen left Ohio between 1835-38; a window which includes the time Joseph Smith Jr. fled, though the Stephen Youngs went to Illinois, rather than to Missouri with “the saints”. Just one year later predatory actions by the Mormon community would lead to their being driven out of Missouri to Illinois."
and
"Counterfeiting networks were inter-generational, extended-family affairs at this time; networks expanded via marrying daughters to other crime families or sons/cousins/uncles moving westward. Counterfeiters would settle in places which supported their trade: too wild for law enforcement; yet near economically developed regions; and close to borders where law enforcement jurisdiction was ‘fuzzy’."
Good luck with your research!
EDIT: Check out that picture of Brigham! What do you see?
RE: BY picture; I see the masonic compass and square centered neatly over his heart.
Because if it's post martyrdom, wouldn't you think BY would really, really hate those guys that murdered Brother Joseph?
Not keep their symbols near and dear to his heart?
Maybe I'll look into it a bit.
And I'm telling you, AGF was simply here looking to see if people had any discernment, and were willing to do some work. He mixed in some gems with a whole bunch of crap, and when he found that nobody was going to take what he was offering and run with it, I think he just bailed.
I'll reach out to him and see if he wants to come back.
- Cruiserdude
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 5359
- Location: SEKS
Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?
I believe most, even TBMs, know we were persecuted in the early times and thus the early members were leery of government. That's known and understood by most members that were at least raised in church/around the church.Niemand wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 2:04 pmMaybe best to see it through the lens of the time. Today's LDS are ultra-conformist and tied in with the world. The LDS back then were rebellious against secular government or at least sceptical of a government which was persecuting them.Cruiserdude wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 1:57 pmThis is new to me. Hmm.endlessQuestions wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 11:49 am This one seems promising:
Jan 6, 2022 — Joseph Smith's family had been engaged in counterfeiting ('passing' the bills) since at least the 1810s; Joseph Smith Jr. since the 1820s; while .
https://www.andreanolen.com/home/the-mo ... mon-youngs
Looks like there are whole books on the topic:
Mormon involvement in organized crime is a topic that is rarely discussed in legacy media, so I will provide some history to this phenomenon. Two excellent books on the subject are Secret Combinations: Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting 1800-1847, by Kathleen Kimball Melonakos and A Nation of Counterfeiters: Capitalists, Con Men, and the Making of the United States by Stephen Mihm.
There is also the case of the so called Mormon Mafia around Howard Hughes but that is another story.
I did not know Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were part of a counterfeiting network. If that's what they were doing, and they were being persecuted, of course they're hesitant and leery of government.
Im not implying or stating anything more than that.
-
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6426
Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?
Here's my invitation to AGF to return:endlessQuestions wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 2:14 pmI'd sure love to have a date on that picture.Dusty Wanderer wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 1:56 pmAn interesting thing I saw was accusations of Oliver C's involvement in the counterfeiting. But in 1845, long after he's been gone and a year after Joseph's murder, charges continue to follow Brigham, among others both in and kicked-out of the church. What a web to untangle, if that's even possible.endlessQuestions wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 11:59 am Just one more, and I'll leave it for you. This specifically mentions Joseph fleeing:
"Chester is only 8 miles from Kirtland, Ohio, epicenter of the infamous 1837 Mormon counterfeiting scandal surrounding the ‘Kirtland Saftey Society’ I described above. When this scandal erupted in November the Mormons— including Joseph Smith Jr.— were run out of town.
Louisa Miner and Stephen Young had their first child, Danl [he used “Daniel” after 1870], on August 12th, 1838 in Stephenson County, Illinois. Therefore, Louisa and Stephen left Ohio between 1835-38; a window which includes the time Joseph Smith Jr. fled, though the Stephen Youngs went to Illinois, rather than to Missouri with “the saints”. Just one year later predatory actions by the Mormon community would lead to their being driven out of Missouri to Illinois."
and
"Counterfeiting networks were inter-generational, extended-family affairs at this time; networks expanded via marrying daughters to other crime families or sons/cousins/uncles moving westward. Counterfeiters would settle in places which supported their trade: too wild for law enforcement; yet near economically developed regions; and close to borders where law enforcement jurisdiction was ‘fuzzy’."
Good luck with your research!
EDIT: Check out that picture of Brigham! What do you see?
RE: BY picture; I see the masonic compass and square centered neatly over his heart.
Because if it's post martyrdom, wouldn't you think BY would really, really hate those guys that murdered Brother Joseph?
Not keep their symbols near and dear to his heart?
Maybe I'll look into it a bit.
And I'm telling you, AGF was simply here looking to see if people had any discernment, and were willing to do some work. He mixed in some gems with a whole bunch of crap, and when he found that nobody was going to take what he was offering and run with it, I think he just bailed.
I'll reach out to him and see if he wants to come back.
Hi AGF,
My name is endlessQuestions.
I came across your railroad thread awhile back and recognized what you were trying to do.
I want you to know there's now a group of people who see the value in the information you were sharing, and there are multiple threads that have spawned by following some of your "clues".
We'd love to have you come back around, and share more with us, if you'd like to.
Sorry I missed the original rodeo. Don't know what I was doing at the time, but completely missed the show!
- Cruiserdude
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 5359
- Location: SEKS
Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?
I could tell we needed what he wanted to share. Drove me nuts that the adversary won and that he got folks to chase AGF off...... I knew he had something important to share.endlessQuestions wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 2:14 pmI'd sure love to have a date on that picture.Dusty Wanderer wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 1:56 pmAn interesting thing I saw was accusations of Oliver C's involvement in the counterfeiting. But in 1845, long after he's been gone and a year after Joseph's murder, charges continue to follow Brigham, among others both in and kicked-out of the church. What a web to untangle, if that's even possible.endlessQuestions wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 11:59 am Just one more, and I'll leave it for you. This specifically mentions Joseph fleeing:
"Chester is only 8 miles from Kirtland, Ohio, epicenter of the infamous 1837 Mormon counterfeiting scandal surrounding the ‘Kirtland Saftey Society’ I described above. When this scandal erupted in November the Mormons— including Joseph Smith Jr.— were run out of town.
Louisa Miner and Stephen Young had their first child, Danl [he used “Daniel” after 1870], on August 12th, 1838 in Stephenson County, Illinois. Therefore, Louisa and Stephen left Ohio between 1835-38; a window which includes the time Joseph Smith Jr. fled, though the Stephen Youngs went to Illinois, rather than to Missouri with “the saints”. Just one year later predatory actions by the Mormon community would lead to their being driven out of Missouri to Illinois."
and
"Counterfeiting networks were inter-generational, extended-family affairs at this time; networks expanded via marrying daughters to other crime families or sons/cousins/uncles moving westward. Counterfeiters would settle in places which supported their trade: too wild for law enforcement; yet near economically developed regions; and close to borders where law enforcement jurisdiction was ‘fuzzy’."
Good luck with your research!
EDIT: Check out that picture of Brigham! What do you see?
RE: BY picture; I see the masonic compass and square centered neatly over his heart.
Because if it's post martyrdom, wouldn't you think BY would really, really hate those guys that murdered Brother Joseph?
Not keep their symbols near and dear to his heart?
Maybe I'll look into it a bit.
And I'm telling you, AGF was simply here looking to see if people had any discernment, and were willing to do some work. He mixed in some gems with a whole bunch of crap, and when he found that nobody was going to take what he was offering and run with it, I think he just bailed.
I'll reach out to him and see if he wants to come back.
- Niemand
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 13997
Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?
If the government abuses you continually, then you might be more willing to forge money.Cruiserdude wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 2:17 pmI believe most, even TBMs, know we were persecuted in the early times and thus the early members were leery of government. That's known and understood by most members that were at least raised in church/around the church.Niemand wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 2:04 pmMaybe best to see it through the lens of the time. Today's LDS are ultra-conformist and tied in with the world. The LDS back then were rebellious against secular government or at least sceptical of a government which was persecuting them.Cruiserdude wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 1:57 pmThis is new to me. Hmm.endlessQuestions wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 11:49 am This one seems promising:
Jan 6, 2022 — Joseph Smith's family had been engaged in counterfeiting ('passing' the bills) since at least the 1810s; Joseph Smith Jr. since the 1820s; while .
https://www.andreanolen.com/home/the-mo ... mon-youngs
Looks like there are whole books on the topic:
Mormon involvement in organized crime is a topic that is rarely discussed in legacy media, so I will provide some history to this phenomenon. Two excellent books on the subject are Secret Combinations: Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting 1800-1847, by Kathleen Kimball Melonakos and A Nation of Counterfeiters: Capitalists, Con Men, and the Making of the United States by Stephen Mihm.
There is also the case of the so called Mormon Mafia around Howard Hughes but that is another story.
I did not know Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were part of a counterfeiting network. If that's what they were doing, and they were being persecuted, of course they're hesitant and leery of government.
Im not implying or stating anything more than that.
- Dusty Wanderer
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1411
Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?
All valid points.Niemand wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 2:04 pmMaybe best to see it through the lens of the time. Today's LDS are ultra-conformist and tied in with the world. The LDS back then were rebellious against secular government or at least sceptical of a government which was persecuting them.Cruiserdude wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 1:57 pmThis is new to me. Hmm.endlessQuestions wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 11:49 am This one seems promising:
Jan 6, 2022 — Joseph Smith's family had been engaged in counterfeiting ('passing' the bills) since at least the 1810s; Joseph Smith Jr. since the 1820s; while .
https://www.andreanolen.com/home/the-mo ... mon-youngs
Looks like there are whole books on the topic:
Mormon involvement in organized crime is a topic that is rarely discussed in legacy media, so I will provide some history to this phenomenon. Two excellent books on the subject are Secret Combinations: Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting 1800-1847, by Kathleen Kimball Melonakos and A Nation of Counterfeiters: Capitalists, Con Men, and the Making of the United States by Stephen Mihm.
There is also the case of the so called Mormon Mafia around Howard Hughes but that is another story.
- Cruiserdude
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 5359
- Location: SEKS
Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?
I understand.Niemand wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 2:25 pmIf the government abuses you continually, then you might be more willing to forge money.Cruiserdude wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 2:17 pmI believe most, even TBMs, know we were persecuted in the early times and thus the early members were leery of government. That's known and understood by most members that were at least raised in church/around the church.Niemand wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 2:04 pmMaybe best to see it through the lens of the time. Today's LDS are ultra-conformist and tied in with the world. The LDS back then were rebellious against secular government or at least sceptical of a government which was persecuting them.
There is also the case of the so called Mormon Mafia around Howard Hughes but that is another story.
I did not know Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were part of a counterfeiting network. If that's what they were doing, and they were being persecuted, of course they're hesitant and leery of government.
Im not implying or stating anything more than that.
-
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6426
Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?
Do we need to set an appointment up for you with your bishop, Niemand?Niemand wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 2:25 pmIf the government abuses you continually, then you might be more willing to forge money.Cruiserdude wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 2:17 pmI believe most, even TBMs, know we were persecuted in the early times and thus the early members were leery of government. That's known and understood by most members that were at least raised in church/around the church.Niemand wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 2:04 pmMaybe best to see it through the lens of the time. Today's LDS are ultra-conformist and tied in with the world. The LDS back then were rebellious against secular government or at least sceptical of a government which was persecuting them.
There is also the case of the so called Mormon Mafia around Howard Hughes but that is another story.
I did not know Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were part of a counterfeiting network. If that's what they were doing, and they were being persecuted, of course they're hesitant and leery of government.
Im not implying or stating anything more than that.
-
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6426
Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?
Here are the revers image lookup results for that picture. Shouldn't be hard to find the date from here:endlessQuestions wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 2:14 pmI'd sure love to have a date on that picture.Dusty Wanderer wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 1:56 pmAn interesting thing I saw was accusations of Oliver C's involvement in the counterfeiting. But in 1845, long after he's been gone and a year after Joseph's murder, charges continue to follow Brigham, among others both in and kicked-out of the church. What a web to untangle, if that's even possible.endlessQuestions wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 11:59 am Just one more, and I'll leave it for you. This specifically mentions Joseph fleeing:
"Chester is only 8 miles from Kirtland, Ohio, epicenter of the infamous 1837 Mormon counterfeiting scandal surrounding the ‘Kirtland Saftey Society’ I described above. When this scandal erupted in November the Mormons— including Joseph Smith Jr.— were run out of town.
Louisa Miner and Stephen Young had their first child, Danl [he used “Daniel” after 1870], on August 12th, 1838 in Stephenson County, Illinois. Therefore, Louisa and Stephen left Ohio between 1835-38; a window which includes the time Joseph Smith Jr. fled, though the Stephen Youngs went to Illinois, rather than to Missouri with “the saints”. Just one year later predatory actions by the Mormon community would lead to their being driven out of Missouri to Illinois."
and
"Counterfeiting networks were inter-generational, extended-family affairs at this time; networks expanded via marrying daughters to other crime families or sons/cousins/uncles moving westward. Counterfeiters would settle in places which supported their trade: too wild for law enforcement; yet near economically developed regions; and close to borders where law enforcement jurisdiction was ‘fuzzy’."
Good luck with your research!
EDIT: Check out that picture of Brigham! What do you see?
RE: BY picture; I see the masonic compass and square centered neatly over his heart.
Because if it's post martyrdom, wouldn't you think BY would really, really hate those guys that murdered Brother Joseph?
Not keep their symbols near and dear to his heart?
Maybe I'll look into it a bit.
And I'm telling you, AGF was simply here looking to see if people had any discernment, and were willing to do some work. He mixed in some gems with a whole bunch of crap, and when he found that nobody was going to take what he was offering and run with it, I think he just bailed.
I'll reach out to him and see if he wants to come back.
https://tineye.com/search/63ee0e9d2ac89 ... esc&page=1
And, if we just think about it logically, this HAS to be post martyrdom, right? Because they didn't have the technology for these kinds of photos pre-martyrdom?
Is that sound logic? Or am I off-base there?
EDIT:
Wanna see something funny?
https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/03 ... -huntsman/
Look at the Salt Lake Tribune mock a Huntsman who is asking for his tithing money back.
You think they chose that picture randomly? And do you see the attribution? Provided by the corporate church.
Epic trolling.
Well played, SLT, and LDSCo. Well played, indeed.
EDIT TWO: seems Brigham was fond of his pin, and wore it more than once:
https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/ans ... nvolvement
Still no year... but it HAS to be post martyrdom. It's almost like Brigham is bragging about his affiliation with the very group he claimed killed "Brother Joseph".
Apparently, it didn't strike anyone at FAIR as odd that Brigham, in a state that the Masons had banned, was wearing the symbol of the fiends who had assassinated his rank and file leader. Maybe I should have got a degree in history, or something.
EDIT THREE:
Well, it's going to be close. Turns out photography came to America around 1840, so these could be pre-martyrdom photos. He certainly looks young, doesn't he? I'll keep digging.
Last edited by endlessQuestions on January 27th, 2023, 3:04 pm, edited 5 times in total.
- Cruiserdude
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 5359
- Location: SEKS
Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?
It's worth a shot, hermanoendlessQuestions wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 2:18 pmHere's my invitation to AGF to return:endlessQuestions wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 2:14 pmI'd sure love to have a date on that picture.Dusty Wanderer wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 1:56 pmAn interesting thing I saw was accusations of Oliver C's involvement in the counterfeiting. But in 1845, long after he's been gone and a year after Joseph's murder, charges continue to follow Brigham, among others both in and kicked-out of the church. What a web to untangle, if that's even possible.endlessQuestions wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 11:59 am Just one more, and I'll leave it for you. This specifically mentions Joseph fleeing:
"Chester is only 8 miles from Kirtland, Ohio, epicenter of the infamous 1837 Mormon counterfeiting scandal surrounding the ‘Kirtland Saftey Society’ I described above. When this scandal erupted in November the Mormons— including Joseph Smith Jr.— were run out of town.
Louisa Miner and Stephen Young had their first child, Danl [he used “Daniel” after 1870], on August 12th, 1838 in Stephenson County, Illinois. Therefore, Louisa and Stephen left Ohio between 1835-38; a window which includes the time Joseph Smith Jr. fled, though the Stephen Youngs went to Illinois, rather than to Missouri with “the saints”. Just one year later predatory actions by the Mormon community would lead to their being driven out of Missouri to Illinois."
and
"Counterfeiting networks were inter-generational, extended-family affairs at this time; networks expanded via marrying daughters to other crime families or sons/cousins/uncles moving westward. Counterfeiters would settle in places which supported their trade: too wild for law enforcement; yet near economically developed regions; and close to borders where law enforcement jurisdiction was ‘fuzzy’."
Good luck with your research!
EDIT: Check out that picture of Brigham! What do you see?
RE: BY picture; I see the masonic compass and square centered neatly over his heart.
Because if it's post martyrdom, wouldn't you think BY would really, really hate those guys that murdered Brother Joseph?
Not keep their symbols near and dear to his heart?
Maybe I'll look into it a bit.
And I'm telling you, AGF was simply here looking to see if people had any discernment, and were willing to do some work. He mixed in some gems with a whole bunch of crap, and when he found that nobody was going to take what he was offering and run with it, I think he just bailed.
I'll reach out to him and see if he wants to come back.
Hi AGF,
My name is endlessQuestions.
I came across your railroad thread awhile back and recognized what you were trying to do.
I want you to know there's now a group of people who see the value in the information you were sharing, and there are multiple threads that have spawned by following some of your "clues".
We'd love to have you come back around, and share more with us, if you'd like to.
Sorry I missed the original rodeo. Don't know what I was doing at the time, but completely missed the show!
- Dusty Wanderer
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1411
Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?
True, if the forgeries followed the abuse. But what if it was the other way around? I don't know enough to make any judgment on it yet.Niemand wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 2:25 pmIf the government abuses you continually, then you might be more willing to forge money.Cruiserdude wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 2:17 pmI believe most, even TBMs, know we were persecuted in the early times and thus the early members were leery of government. That's known and understood by most members that were at least raised in church/around the church.Niemand wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 2:04 pmMaybe best to see it through the lens of the time. Today's LDS are ultra-conformist and tied in with the world. The LDS back then were rebellious against secular government or at least sceptical of a government which was persecuting them.
There is also the case of the so called Mormon Mafia around Howard Hughes but that is another story.
I did not know Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were part of a counterfeiting network. If that's what they were doing, and they were being persecuted, of course they're hesitant and leery of government.
Im not implying or stating anything more than that.
- Dusty Wanderer
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1411
Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?
I'm hesitant to say who was involved in what yet. One things for sure, there were some bad apples in the box.Cruiserdude wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 2:17 pmI believe most, even TBMs, know we were persecuted in the early times and thus the early members were leery of government. That's known and understood by most members that were at least raised in church/around the church.Niemand wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 2:04 pmMaybe best to see it through the lens of the time. Today's LDS are ultra-conformist and tied in with the world. The LDS back then were rebellious against secular government or at least sceptical of a government which was persecuting them.Cruiserdude wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 1:57 pmThis is new to me. Hmm.endlessQuestions wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 11:49 am This one seems promising:
Jan 6, 2022 — Joseph Smith's family had been engaged in counterfeiting ('passing' the bills) since at least the 1810s; Joseph Smith Jr. since the 1820s; while .
https://www.andreanolen.com/home/the-mo ... mon-youngs
Looks like there are whole books on the topic:
Mormon involvement in organized crime is a topic that is rarely discussed in legacy media, so I will provide some history to this phenomenon. Two excellent books on the subject are Secret Combinations: Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting 1800-1847, by Kathleen Kimball Melonakos and A Nation of Counterfeiters: Capitalists, Con Men, and the Making of the United States by Stephen Mihm.
There is also the case of the so called Mormon Mafia around Howard Hughes but that is another story.
I did not know Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were part of a counterfeiting network. If that's what they were doing, and they were being persecuted, of course they're hesitant and leery of government.
Im not implying or stating anything more than that.
- Niemand
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 13997
Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?
Money forgery is not part of my skillset! It would require expensive, specialist equipment.endlessQuestions wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 2:29 pm Do we need to set an appointment up for you with your bishop, Niemand?
About the nearest I came to ths was some story about phony pound coins. The report said that if you took them to the bank they would give you twenty pence (or whatever it was) for your trouble. I'm afraid to say I'd just pass it on. I've no wish to be eighty pence down on each coin and I consider all money to be a kind of confidence trick anyway. (A digicurrency even worse.)
-
- captain of 100
- Posts: 403
Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?
I remember watching this a while ago, so thought I'd share it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klovZ-sWyH4
video presents the theory that Joseph was not counterfeiting money, but was begging others to stop, and it may have led to the destruction of the printing press.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klovZ-sWyH4
video presents the theory that Joseph was not counterfeiting money, but was begging others to stop, and it may have led to the destruction of the printing press.
- Dusty Wanderer
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1411
Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?
Thanks for the heads-up on this. Will review.Ado wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 2:50 pm I remember watching this a while ago, so thought I'd share it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klovZ-sWyH4
video presents the theory that Joseph was not counterfeiting money, but was begging others to stop, and it may have led to the destruction of the printing press.
I have noticed some parallels in the departures (missions, business, other) and the returns of certain prominent figures that coincide with periods of peace and trouble. I'm still putting some of it together for review and vetting it out. If anything comes of it, I'll post here.
Been wondering lately if certain figures that knew some of Joseph's alleged secrets, could have used those to keep his silence on things he knew they were doing. So he chose to address them broadly in the public square. That's why you see accounts like this:
[Zion High Council Minutes]
Thomas B. Marsh testifies that while in Kirtland last summer, David W. Patten asked Oliver Cowdery if he Joseph Smith jr had confessed to his wife that he was guilty of adultery with a certain girl, when Oliver Cowdery cocked up his eye very knowingly and hesitated to answer the question, saying he did not know as he was bound to answer the question yet conveyed the idea that it was true. Last fall after Oliver came to this place he heard a conversation take place between Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery when J. Smith asked him if he had ever confessed to him that he was guilty of adultery, when after a considerable winking &c. he said no. Joseph then <asked> him if he ever told him that he confessed to any body, when he answered no.
(cf. https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... transcript)
Last edited by Dusty Wanderer on January 28th, 2023, 1:30 pm, edited 4 times in total.
-
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6426
Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?
Going to put this in its own comment.endlessQuestions wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 2:30 pmHere are the revers image lookup results for that picture. Shouldn't be hard to find the date from here:endlessQuestions wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 2:14 pmI'd sure love to have a date on that picture.Dusty Wanderer wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 1:56 pmAn interesting thing I saw was accusations of Oliver C's involvement in the counterfeiting. But in 1845, long after he's been gone and a year after Joseph's murder, charges continue to follow Brigham, among others both in and kicked-out of the church. What a web to untangle, if that's even possible.endlessQuestions wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 11:59 am Just one more, and I'll leave it for you. This specifically mentions Joseph fleeing:
"Chester is only 8 miles from Kirtland, Ohio, epicenter of the infamous 1837 Mormon counterfeiting scandal surrounding the ‘Kirtland Saftey Society’ I described above. When this scandal erupted in November the Mormons— including Joseph Smith Jr.— were run out of town.
Louisa Miner and Stephen Young had their first child, Danl [he used “Daniel” after 1870], on August 12th, 1838 in Stephenson County, Illinois. Therefore, Louisa and Stephen left Ohio between 1835-38; a window which includes the time Joseph Smith Jr. fled, though the Stephen Youngs went to Illinois, rather than to Missouri with “the saints”. Just one year later predatory actions by the Mormon community would lead to their being driven out of Missouri to Illinois."
and
"Counterfeiting networks were inter-generational, extended-family affairs at this time; networks expanded via marrying daughters to other crime families or sons/cousins/uncles moving westward. Counterfeiters would settle in places which supported their trade: too wild for law enforcement; yet near economically developed regions; and close to borders where law enforcement jurisdiction was ‘fuzzy’."
Good luck with your research!
EDIT: Check out that picture of Brigham! What do you see?
RE: BY picture; I see the masonic compass and square centered neatly over his heart.
Because if it's post martyrdom, wouldn't you think BY would really, really hate those guys that murdered Brother Joseph?
Not keep their symbols near and dear to his heart?
Maybe I'll look into it a bit.
And I'm telling you, AGF was simply here looking to see if people had any discernment, and were willing to do some work. He mixed in some gems with a whole bunch of crap, and when he found that nobody was going to take what he was offering and run with it, I think he just bailed.
I'll reach out to him and see if he wants to come back.
https://tineye.com/search/63ee0e9d2ac89 ... esc&page=1
And, if we just think about it logically, this HAS to be post martyrdom, right? Because they didn't have the technology for these kinds of photos pre-martyrdom?
Is that sound logic? Or am I off-base there?
EDIT:
Wanna see something funny?
https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/03 ... -huntsman/
Look at the Salt Lake Tribune mock a Huntsman who is asking for his tithing money back.
You think they chose that picture randomly? And do you see the attribution? Provided by the corporate church.
Epic trolling.
Well played, SLT, and LDSCo. Well played, indeed.
EDIT TWO: seems Brigham was fond of his pin, and wore it more than once:
https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/ans ... nvolvement
Still no year... but it HAS to be post martyrdom. It's almost like Brigham is bragging about his affiliation with the very group he claimed killed "Brother Joseph".
Apparently, it didn't strike anyone at FAIR as odd that Brigham, in a state that the Masons had banned, was wearing the symbol of the fiends who had assassinated his rank and file leader. Maybe I should have got a degree in history, or something.
EDIT THREE:
Well, it's going to be close. Turns out photography came to America around 1840, so these could be pre-martyrdom photos. He certainly looks young, doesn't he? I'll keep digging.
BINGO.
Post martyrdom.
Circa 1852-1854.
Picture taken by a Cannon.
The person, Cannon. Not the camera, Canon.
I could have told you that, though, because ALMOST EVERY TIME something weird in the Church happens, there's a Cannon involved.
Gifted by... the Marriotts.
Passed from Youngs, to Nibleys, to Richards.
Patterns.
Lots of patterns.
https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/vie ... text=byusq
Can I more firmly establish that Brigham claimed the Masons killed Joseph?
I think I ought to try.
EDIT: Well, Dr. Holzapfel was kind enough to give us his email address, so I emailed him. BUT...
That name looked familiar, and sure enough, he's now ELDER Holzapfel, so I'm not sure my email will get to him.
I can't send another message to his church account, as I promised not to send any more unsolicited messages, but we'll track him down somehow... or someone who can answer our question. Here's what I said:
##### BEGIN #####
Dr. Holzapfel,
I recently was doing some research and came across a picture of Brigham Young with a Freemasonry pin. My research on its provenance led to your paper, "A Superlative Image: An Original Daguerreotype of Brigham Young", and I was hoping I could ask you a quick question.
Has anybody stopped to think about how strange it is that Brigham Young would be wearing Masonic symbols in the 1850s?
To my knowledge, the Masons had banned Mormons at that point, to the point they wouldn't even allow a Lodge to be built in Utah.
And to my knowledge, the common narrative amongst church members was that the Masons were responsible for assassinating "Brother Joseph" - at a time when he was a candidate for President of the United States of America.
Why would Brigham be wearing "Masonic merchandise", for lack of a better term, nearly ten years after that group had killed his file leader in the Church?
Anyway, just wondering if anyone has thought or written about this.
Thanks,
Justin W. Riggs
720-505-1323
juriggs@gmail.com
##### END #####
Last edited by endlessQuestions on January 27th, 2023, 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Dusty Wanderer
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1411
Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?
Wow, some of those family connections go all the way back, don't they. I wonder what else is out there in private possession that could be significant evidence of things as they really are, but remain hidden in family vaults.endlessQuestions wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 3:08 pmGoing to put this in its own comment.endlessQuestions wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 2:30 pmHere are the revers image lookup results for that picture. Shouldn't be hard to find the date from here:endlessQuestions wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 2:14 pmI'd sure love to have a date on that picture.Dusty Wanderer wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 1:56 pm
An interesting thing I saw was accusations of Oliver C's involvement in the counterfeiting. But in 1845, long after he's been gone and a year after Joseph's murder, charges continue to follow Brigham, among others both in and kicked-out of the church. What a web to untangle, if that's even possible.
RE: BY picture; I see the masonic compass and square centered neatly over his heart.
Because if it's post martyrdom, wouldn't you think BY would really, really hate those guys that murdered Brother Joseph?
Not keep their symbols near and dear to his heart?
Maybe I'll look into it a bit.
And I'm telling you, AGF was simply here looking to see if people had any discernment, and were willing to do some work. He mixed in some gems with a whole bunch of crap, and when he found that nobody was going to take what he was offering and run with it, I think he just bailed.
I'll reach out to him and see if he wants to come back.
https://tineye.com/search/63ee0e9d2ac89 ... esc&page=1
And, if we just think about it logically, this HAS to be post martyrdom, right? Because they didn't have the technology for these kinds of photos pre-martyrdom?
Is that sound logic? Or am I off-base there?
EDIT:
Wanna see something funny?
https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/03 ... -huntsman/
Look at the Salt Lake Tribune mock a Huntsman who is asking for his tithing money back.
You think they chose that picture randomly? And do you see the attribution? Provided by the corporate church.
Epic trolling.
Well played, SLT, and LDSCo. Well played, indeed.
EDIT TWO: seems Brigham was fond of his pin, and wore it more than once:
https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/ans ... nvolvement
Still no year... but it HAS to be post martyrdom. It's almost like Brigham is bragging about his affiliation with the very group he claimed killed "Brother Joseph".
Apparently, it didn't strike anyone at FAIR as odd that Brigham, in a state that the Masons had banned, was wearing the symbol of the fiends who had assassinated his rank and file leader. Maybe I should have got a degree in history, or something.
EDIT THREE:
Well, it's going to be close. Turns out photography came to America around 1840, so these could be pre-martyrdom photos. He certainly looks young, doesn't he? I'll keep digging.
BINGO.
Post martyrdom.
Circa 1852-1854.
Picture taken by a Cannon.
The person, Cannon. Not the camera, Canon.
I could have told you that, though, because ALMOST EVERY TIME something weird in the Church happens, there's a Cannon involved.
Gifted by... the Marriotts.
Passed from Youngs, to Nibleys, to Richards.
Patterns.
Lots of patterns.
https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/vie ... text=byusq
Can I more firmly establish that Brigham claimed the Masons killed Joseph?
I think I ought to try.
-
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6426
Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?
Ok, new comment for new information...endlessQuestions wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 3:08 pmGoing to put this in its own comment.endlessQuestions wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 2:30 pmHere are the revers image lookup results for that picture. Shouldn't be hard to find the date from here:endlessQuestions wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 2:14 pmI'd sure love to have a date on that picture.Dusty Wanderer wrote: ↑January 27th, 2023, 1:56 pm
An interesting thing I saw was accusations of Oliver C's involvement in the counterfeiting. But in 1845, long after he's been gone and a year after Joseph's murder, charges continue to follow Brigham, among others both in and kicked-out of the church. What a web to untangle, if that's even possible.
RE: BY picture; I see the masonic compass and square centered neatly over his heart.
Because if it's post martyrdom, wouldn't you think BY would really, really hate those guys that murdered Brother Joseph?
Not keep their symbols near and dear to his heart?
Maybe I'll look into it a bit.
And I'm telling you, AGF was simply here looking to see if people had any discernment, and were willing to do some work. He mixed in some gems with a whole bunch of crap, and when he found that nobody was going to take what he was offering and run with it, I think he just bailed.
I'll reach out to him and see if he wants to come back.
https://tineye.com/search/63ee0e9d2ac89 ... esc&page=1
And, if we just think about it logically, this HAS to be post martyrdom, right? Because they didn't have the technology for these kinds of photos pre-martyrdom?
Is that sound logic? Or am I off-base there?
EDIT:
Wanna see something funny?
https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/03 ... -huntsman/
Look at the Salt Lake Tribune mock a Huntsman who is asking for his tithing money back.
You think they chose that picture randomly? And do you see the attribution? Provided by the corporate church.
Epic trolling.
Well played, SLT, and LDSCo. Well played, indeed.
EDIT TWO: seems Brigham was fond of his pin, and wore it more than once:
https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/ans ... nvolvement
Still no year... but it HAS to be post martyrdom. It's almost like Brigham is bragging about his affiliation with the very group he claimed killed "Brother Joseph".
Apparently, it didn't strike anyone at FAIR as odd that Brigham, in a state that the Masons had banned, was wearing the symbol of the fiends who had assassinated his rank and file leader. Maybe I should have got a degree in history, or something.
EDIT THREE:
Well, it's going to be close. Turns out photography came to America around 1840, so these could be pre-martyrdom photos. He certainly looks young, doesn't he? I'll keep digging.
BINGO.
Post martyrdom.
Circa 1852-1854.
Picture taken by a Cannon.
The person, Cannon. Not the camera, Canon.
I could have told you that, though, because ALMOST EVERY TIME something weird in the Church happens, there's a Cannon involved.
Gifted by... the Marriotts.
Passed from Youngs, to Nibleys, to Richards.
Patterns.
Lots of patterns.
https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/vie ... text=byusq
Can I more firmly establish that Brigham claimed the Masons killed Joseph?
I think I ought to try.
EDIT: Well, Dr. Holzapfel was kind enough to give us his email address, so I emailed him. BUT...
That name looked familiar, and sure enough, he's now ELDER Holzapfel, so I'm not sure my email will get to him.
I can't send another message to his church account, as I promised not to send any more unsolicited messages, but we'll track him down somehow... or someone who can answer our question. Here's what I said:
##### BEGIN #####
Dr. Holzapfel,
I recently was doing some research and came across a picture of Brigham Young with a Freemasonry pin. My research on its provenance led to your paper, "A Superlative Image: An Original Daguerreotype of Brigham Young", and I was hoping I could ask you a quick question.
Has anybody stopped to think about how strange it is that Brigham Young would be wearing Masonic symbols in the 1850s?
To my knowledge, the Masons had banned Mormons at that point, to the point they wouldn't even allow a Lodge to be built in Utah.
And to my knowledge, the common narrative amongst church members was that the Masons were responsible for assassinating "Brother Joseph" - at a time when he was a candidate for President of the United States of America.
Why would Brigham be wearing "Masonic merchandise", for lack of a better term, nearly ten years after that group had killed his file leader in the Church?
Anyway, just wondering if anyone has thought or written about this.
Thanks,
Justin W. Riggs
720-505-1323
juriggs@gmail.com
##### END #####
Here's a claim that Brigham believed the Freemasons had murdered Joseph and Hyrum, but with no attribution. I'll keep working on it. This is really, really interesting. I can't think of a single good reason Brigham would be wearing that pin in the 1850s. Can anyone else?
https://www.fromthedesk.org/joseph-smit ... -infinite/
"Lodge work continued to be done in Nauvoo after the death of Joseph Smith. But many leaders—including Brigham Young—believed that Freemasons in Illinois and nationwide had conspired to kill Joseph and Hyrum Smith, and that non-Latter-day Saint Freemasonry operated contrary to the interests of the Church.
After the exodus from Nauvoo, there were many Freemasons in the church who hoped for the formation of a Latter-day Saint-controlled Grand Lodge within the State of Deseret. However, Brigham feared that Masons of other faiths moving into the territory were plotting against the pioneer Saints. He thought that the establishment of such a Grand Lodge would in the end be used to destroy the Church and its work. Brigham ultimately decided the Saints should put their energies into building the kingdom of God."
Photographic evidence suggest otherwise?
EDIT ONE:
Another similar claim with no attribution:
'Bruno doesn’t know if that Smith was giving the Masonic call of distress, but Smith’s contemporaries said he was. That includes Brigham Young, who was an apostle under Smith, and one of Smith’s wives. And it was said in LDS newspapers that Smith gave the masonic call of distress, Bruno said.
LDS were “very, very angry” about masons not helping Smith when he needed it, Bruno said.
“(It’s) one of the reasons why Brigham Young did not want to have a Masonic lodge,” Bruno said. “(LDS) were angry that the Masons did not help Joseph Smith in his moment of need.”'
EDIT TWO: Looks like Brigham came to the party as a Mason, along with some other familiar names:
http://www.mormonismi.net/temppeli/durh ... 1974.shtml
"By the end of 1832, Joseph Smith had welcomed new brethren, along with their influences, into the Church. Men such as W. W. Phelps, Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, and Newel K. Whitney, each of whom had been deeply involved in Masonry, from one side or the other, before their entrance into the Church."
EDIT THREE: Evidence that it was a commonly held belief that Masons were responsible by Brigham's associates:
https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/ans ... ge_jail%3F
Last edited by endlessQuestions on January 27th, 2023, 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6426
Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?
An interesting aside... maybe this is why God knocked down the Nauvoo temple?
"William Weeks (made a Mason in Nauvoo Lodge. M. R. H.), the architect of the Nauvoo Temple, has many drawings in the Historians Office ~f the Church. This is one of the preliminary drawings - first drawings - first draft drawings of the Nauvoo Temple. You will notice that it has the beautiful picture in the whole front of the Temple of the All-Seeing Eye, and he was going to have a beautiful angel stand on the top of the Temple. Later, another design by William Weeks again: - modified the All-Seeing Eye, trimmed down the angel on the top of the Temple, and then again, in another plan, he has the small angel on the top - not a huge lady as was before - and this one comes pretty close to the way the Nauvoo Temple looked like.
Now, in the Visitors' Center at the Nauvoo Restoration, you see a mock-up of the Temple and on the very top there is, on the weather vane, this little angel. Well, that little angel was photographed in the next picture. There is the angel: the beautiful horn, the Book of Mormon in the other hand. And, then, if you will notice, what looks as if there are crosses on the staff or the spear which is the weather vane. Do you see those crosses there? We blew that up - it is not a very clear picture - to let you know that it is a beautiful compass and square, in the typical Masonic fashion.
Now, I wondered where in the world did they get, on the mock-up of the Temple in the Visitors' Center, the compass and square - the Masonic symbols; in fact, the most probably universal Masonic symbols that are known in Masonry. Where did they get that? Until, in the Historian's Office in Salt Lake City, we found the drawing of William Weeks, who very clearly employed the Masonic symbols on that angel. (I have been informed that the particular illustration referred to, in the Visitors' Center, had been removed when the Center opened the next morning. M. B. H.)"
Wonder if that old compass and square are on the new building...
"William Weeks (made a Mason in Nauvoo Lodge. M. R. H.), the architect of the Nauvoo Temple, has many drawings in the Historians Office ~f the Church. This is one of the preliminary drawings - first drawings - first draft drawings of the Nauvoo Temple. You will notice that it has the beautiful picture in the whole front of the Temple of the All-Seeing Eye, and he was going to have a beautiful angel stand on the top of the Temple. Later, another design by William Weeks again: - modified the All-Seeing Eye, trimmed down the angel on the top of the Temple, and then again, in another plan, he has the small angel on the top - not a huge lady as was before - and this one comes pretty close to the way the Nauvoo Temple looked like.
Now, in the Visitors' Center at the Nauvoo Restoration, you see a mock-up of the Temple and on the very top there is, on the weather vane, this little angel. Well, that little angel was photographed in the next picture. There is the angel: the beautiful horn, the Book of Mormon in the other hand. And, then, if you will notice, what looks as if there are crosses on the staff or the spear which is the weather vane. Do you see those crosses there? We blew that up - it is not a very clear picture - to let you know that it is a beautiful compass and square, in the typical Masonic fashion.
Now, I wondered where in the world did they get, on the mock-up of the Temple in the Visitors' Center, the compass and square - the Masonic symbols; in fact, the most probably universal Masonic symbols that are known in Masonry. Where did they get that? Until, in the Historian's Office in Salt Lake City, we found the drawing of William Weeks, who very clearly employed the Masonic symbols on that angel. (I have been informed that the particular illustration referred to, in the Visitors' Center, had been removed when the Center opened the next morning. M. B. H.)"
Wonder if that old compass and square are on the new building...