Joseph Smith missing for some time?

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Cruiserdude
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Posts: 5359
Location: SEKS

Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?

Post by Cruiserdude »

endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 11:49 am This one seems promising:

Jan 6, 2022 — Joseph Smith's family had been engaged in counterfeiting ('passing' the bills) since at least the 1810s; Joseph Smith Jr. since the 1820s; while .

https://www.andreanolen.com/home/the-mo ... mon-youngs

Looks like there are whole books on the topic:

Mormon involvement in organized crime is a topic that is rarely discussed in legacy media, so I will provide some history to this phenomenon. Two excellent books on the subject are Secret Combinations: Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting 1800-1847, by Kathleen Kimball Melonakos and A Nation of Counterfeiters: Capitalists, Con Men, and the Making of the United States by Stephen Mihm.
This is new to me. Hmm.

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Niemand
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Posts: 13997

Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?

Post by Niemand »

Cruiserdude wrote: January 27th, 2023, 1:57 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 11:49 am This one seems promising:

Jan 6, 2022 — Joseph Smith's family had been engaged in counterfeiting ('passing' the bills) since at least the 1810s; Joseph Smith Jr. since the 1820s; while .

https://www.andreanolen.com/home/the-mo ... mon-youngs

Looks like there are whole books on the topic:

Mormon involvement in organized crime is a topic that is rarely discussed in legacy media, so I will provide some history to this phenomenon. Two excellent books on the subject are Secret Combinations: Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting 1800-1847, by Kathleen Kimball Melonakos and A Nation of Counterfeiters: Capitalists, Con Men, and the Making of the United States by Stephen Mihm.
This is new to me. Hmm.
Maybe best to see it through the lens of the time. Today's LDS are ultra-conformist and tied in with the world. The LDS back then were rebellious against secular government or at least sceptical of a government which was persecuting them.

There is also the case of the so called Mormon Mafia around Howard Hughes but that is another story.

endlessQuestions
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6426

Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?

Post by endlessQuestions »

Niemand wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:04 pm
Cruiserdude wrote: January 27th, 2023, 1:57 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 11:49 am This one seems promising:

Jan 6, 2022 — Joseph Smith's family had been engaged in counterfeiting ('passing' the bills) since at least the 1810s; Joseph Smith Jr. since the 1820s; while .

https://www.andreanolen.com/home/the-mo ... mon-youngs

Looks like there are whole books on the topic:

Mormon involvement in organized crime is a topic that is rarely discussed in legacy media, so I will provide some history to this phenomenon. Two excellent books on the subject are Secret Combinations: Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting 1800-1847, by Kathleen Kimball Melonakos and A Nation of Counterfeiters: Capitalists, Con Men, and the Making of the United States by Stephen Mihm.
This is new to me. Hmm.
Maybe best to see it through the lens of the time. Today's LDS are ultra-conformist and tied in with the world. The LDS back then were rebellious against secular government or at least sceptical of a government which was persecuting them.

There is also the case of the so called Mormon Mafia around Howard Hughes but that is another story.
A story partially told in the "Apostle or Aristocrat" thread, accompanied by primary source documents from the CIA that were FOIA'd at some point.

endlessQuestions
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6426

Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?

Post by endlessQuestions »

Dusty Wanderer wrote: January 27th, 2023, 1:56 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 11:59 am Just one more, and I'll leave it for you. This specifically mentions Joseph fleeing:

"Chester is only 8 miles from Kirtland, Ohio, epicenter of the infamous 1837 Mormon counterfeiting scandal surrounding the ‘Kirtland Saftey Society’ I described above. When this scandal erupted in November the Mormons— including Joseph Smith Jr.— were run out of town.

Louisa Miner and Stephen Young had their first child, Danl [he used “Daniel” after 1870], on August 12th, 1838 in Stephenson County, Illinois. Therefore, Louisa and Stephen left Ohio between 1835-38; a window which includes the time Joseph Smith Jr. fled, though the Stephen Youngs went to Illinois, rather than to Missouri with “the saints”. Just one year later predatory actions by the Mormon community would lead to their being driven out of Missouri to Illinois."

and

"Counterfeiting networks were inter-generational, extended-family affairs at this time; networks expanded via marrying daughters to other crime families or sons/cousins/uncles moving westward. Counterfeiters would settle in places which supported their trade: too wild for law enforcement; yet near economically developed regions; and close to borders where law enforcement jurisdiction was ‘fuzzy’."

Good luck with your research!

EDIT: Check out that picture of Brigham! What do you see?
An interesting thing I saw was accusations of Oliver C's involvement in the counterfeiting. But in 1845, long after he's been gone and a year after Joseph's murder, charges continue to follow Brigham, among others both in and kicked-out of the church. What a web to untangle, if that's even possible.

RE: BY picture; I see the masonic compass and square centered neatly over his heart.
I'd sure love to have a date on that picture.

Because if it's post martyrdom, wouldn't you think BY would really, really hate those guys that murdered Brother Joseph?

Not keep their symbols near and dear to his heart?

Maybe I'll look into it a bit.

And I'm telling you, AGF was simply here looking to see if people had any discernment, and were willing to do some work. He mixed in some gems with a whole bunch of crap, and when he found that nobody was going to take what he was offering and run with it, I think he just bailed.

I'll reach out to him and see if he wants to come back.

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Cruiserdude
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5359
Location: SEKS

Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?

Post by Cruiserdude »

Niemand wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:04 pm
Cruiserdude wrote: January 27th, 2023, 1:57 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 11:49 am This one seems promising:

Jan 6, 2022 — Joseph Smith's family had been engaged in counterfeiting ('passing' the bills) since at least the 1810s; Joseph Smith Jr. since the 1820s; while .

https://www.andreanolen.com/home/the-mo ... mon-youngs

Looks like there are whole books on the topic:

Mormon involvement in organized crime is a topic that is rarely discussed in legacy media, so I will provide some history to this phenomenon. Two excellent books on the subject are Secret Combinations: Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting 1800-1847, by Kathleen Kimball Melonakos and A Nation of Counterfeiters: Capitalists, Con Men, and the Making of the United States by Stephen Mihm.
This is new to me. Hmm.
Maybe best to see it through the lens of the time. Today's LDS are ultra-conformist and tied in with the world. The LDS back then were rebellious against secular government or at least sceptical of a government which was persecuting them.

There is also the case of the so called Mormon Mafia around Howard Hughes but that is another story.
I believe most, even TBMs, know we were persecuted in the early times and thus the early members were leery of government. That's known and understood by most members that were at least raised in church/around the church.
I did not know Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were part of a counterfeiting network. If that's what they were doing, and they were being persecuted, of course they're hesitant and leery of government.
Im not implying or stating anything more than that.

endlessQuestions
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6426

Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?

Post by endlessQuestions »

endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:14 pm
Dusty Wanderer wrote: January 27th, 2023, 1:56 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 11:59 am Just one more, and I'll leave it for you. This specifically mentions Joseph fleeing:

"Chester is only 8 miles from Kirtland, Ohio, epicenter of the infamous 1837 Mormon counterfeiting scandal surrounding the ‘Kirtland Saftey Society’ I described above. When this scandal erupted in November the Mormons— including Joseph Smith Jr.— were run out of town.

Louisa Miner and Stephen Young had their first child, Danl [he used “Daniel” after 1870], on August 12th, 1838 in Stephenson County, Illinois. Therefore, Louisa and Stephen left Ohio between 1835-38; a window which includes the time Joseph Smith Jr. fled, though the Stephen Youngs went to Illinois, rather than to Missouri with “the saints”. Just one year later predatory actions by the Mormon community would lead to their being driven out of Missouri to Illinois."

and

"Counterfeiting networks were inter-generational, extended-family affairs at this time; networks expanded via marrying daughters to other crime families or sons/cousins/uncles moving westward. Counterfeiters would settle in places which supported their trade: too wild for law enforcement; yet near economically developed regions; and close to borders where law enforcement jurisdiction was ‘fuzzy’."

Good luck with your research!

EDIT: Check out that picture of Brigham! What do you see?
An interesting thing I saw was accusations of Oliver C's involvement in the counterfeiting. But in 1845, long after he's been gone and a year after Joseph's murder, charges continue to follow Brigham, among others both in and kicked-out of the church. What a web to untangle, if that's even possible.

RE: BY picture; I see the masonic compass and square centered neatly over his heart.
I'd sure love to have a date on that picture.

Because if it's post martyrdom, wouldn't you think BY would really, really hate those guys that murdered Brother Joseph?

Not keep their symbols near and dear to his heart?

Maybe I'll look into it a bit.

And I'm telling you, AGF was simply here looking to see if people had any discernment, and were willing to do some work. He mixed in some gems with a whole bunch of crap, and when he found that nobody was going to take what he was offering and run with it, I think he just bailed.

I'll reach out to him and see if he wants to come back.
Here's my invitation to AGF to return:

Hi AGF,

My name is endlessQuestions.

I came across your railroad thread awhile back and recognized what you were trying to do.

I want you to know there's now a group of people who see the value in the information you were sharing, and there are multiple threads that have spawned by following some of your "clues".

We'd love to have you come back around, and share more with us, if you'd like to.

Sorry I missed the original rodeo. Don't know what I was doing at the time, but completely missed the show!

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Cruiserdude
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5359
Location: SEKS

Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?

Post by Cruiserdude »

endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:14 pm
Dusty Wanderer wrote: January 27th, 2023, 1:56 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 11:59 am Just one more, and I'll leave it for you. This specifically mentions Joseph fleeing:

"Chester is only 8 miles from Kirtland, Ohio, epicenter of the infamous 1837 Mormon counterfeiting scandal surrounding the ‘Kirtland Saftey Society’ I described above. When this scandal erupted in November the Mormons— including Joseph Smith Jr.— were run out of town.

Louisa Miner and Stephen Young had their first child, Danl [he used “Daniel” after 1870], on August 12th, 1838 in Stephenson County, Illinois. Therefore, Louisa and Stephen left Ohio between 1835-38; a window which includes the time Joseph Smith Jr. fled, though the Stephen Youngs went to Illinois, rather than to Missouri with “the saints”. Just one year later predatory actions by the Mormon community would lead to their being driven out of Missouri to Illinois."

and

"Counterfeiting networks were inter-generational, extended-family affairs at this time; networks expanded via marrying daughters to other crime families or sons/cousins/uncles moving westward. Counterfeiters would settle in places which supported their trade: too wild for law enforcement; yet near economically developed regions; and close to borders where law enforcement jurisdiction was ‘fuzzy’."

Good luck with your research!

EDIT: Check out that picture of Brigham! What do you see?
An interesting thing I saw was accusations of Oliver C's involvement in the counterfeiting. But in 1845, long after he's been gone and a year after Joseph's murder, charges continue to follow Brigham, among others both in and kicked-out of the church. What a web to untangle, if that's even possible.

RE: BY picture; I see the masonic compass and square centered neatly over his heart.
I'd sure love to have a date on that picture.

Because if it's post martyrdom, wouldn't you think BY would really, really hate those guys that murdered Brother Joseph?

Not keep their symbols near and dear to his heart?

Maybe I'll look into it a bit.

And I'm telling you, AGF was simply here looking to see if people had any discernment, and were willing to do some work. He mixed in some gems with a whole bunch of crap, and when he found that nobody was going to take what he was offering and run with it, I think he just bailed.

I'll reach out to him and see if he wants to come back.
I could tell we needed what he wanted to share. Drove me nuts that the adversary won and that he got folks to chase AGF off...... I knew he had something important to share.

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Niemand
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Posts: 13997

Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?

Post by Niemand »

Cruiserdude wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:17 pm
Niemand wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:04 pm
Cruiserdude wrote: January 27th, 2023, 1:57 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 11:49 am This one seems promising:

Jan 6, 2022 — Joseph Smith's family had been engaged in counterfeiting ('passing' the bills) since at least the 1810s; Joseph Smith Jr. since the 1820s; while .

https://www.andreanolen.com/home/the-mo ... mon-youngs

Looks like there are whole books on the topic:

Mormon involvement in organized crime is a topic that is rarely discussed in legacy media, so I will provide some history to this phenomenon. Two excellent books on the subject are Secret Combinations: Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting 1800-1847, by Kathleen Kimball Melonakos and A Nation of Counterfeiters: Capitalists, Con Men, and the Making of the United States by Stephen Mihm.
This is new to me. Hmm.
Maybe best to see it through the lens of the time. Today's LDS are ultra-conformist and tied in with the world. The LDS back then were rebellious against secular government or at least sceptical of a government which was persecuting them.

There is also the case of the so called Mormon Mafia around Howard Hughes but that is another story.
I believe most, even TBMs, know we were persecuted in the early times and thus the early members were leery of government. That's known and understood by most members that were at least raised in church/around the church.
I did not know Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were part of a counterfeiting network. If that's what they were doing, and they were being persecuted, of course they're hesitant and leery of government.
Im not implying or stating anything more than that.
If the government abuses you continually, then you might be more willing to forge money.

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Dusty Wanderer
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1411

Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?

Post by Dusty Wanderer »

Niemand wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:04 pm
Cruiserdude wrote: January 27th, 2023, 1:57 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 11:49 am This one seems promising:

Jan 6, 2022 — Joseph Smith's family had been engaged in counterfeiting ('passing' the bills) since at least the 1810s; Joseph Smith Jr. since the 1820s; while .

https://www.andreanolen.com/home/the-mo ... mon-youngs

Looks like there are whole books on the topic:

Mormon involvement in organized crime is a topic that is rarely discussed in legacy media, so I will provide some history to this phenomenon. Two excellent books on the subject are Secret Combinations: Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting 1800-1847, by Kathleen Kimball Melonakos and A Nation of Counterfeiters: Capitalists, Con Men, and the Making of the United States by Stephen Mihm.
This is new to me. Hmm.
Maybe best to see it through the lens of the time. Today's LDS are ultra-conformist and tied in with the world. The LDS back then were rebellious against secular government or at least sceptical of a government which was persecuting them.

There is also the case of the so called Mormon Mafia around Howard Hughes but that is another story.
All valid points.

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Cruiserdude
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5359
Location: SEKS

Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?

Post by Cruiserdude »

Niemand wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:25 pm
Cruiserdude wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:17 pm
Niemand wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:04 pm
Cruiserdude wrote: January 27th, 2023, 1:57 pm
This is new to me. Hmm.
Maybe best to see it through the lens of the time. Today's LDS are ultra-conformist and tied in with the world. The LDS back then were rebellious against secular government or at least sceptical of a government which was persecuting them.

There is also the case of the so called Mormon Mafia around Howard Hughes but that is another story.
I believe most, even TBMs, know we were persecuted in the early times and thus the early members were leery of government. That's known and understood by most members that were at least raised in church/around the church.
I did not know Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were part of a counterfeiting network. If that's what they were doing, and they were being persecuted, of course they're hesitant and leery of government.
Im not implying or stating anything more than that.
If the government abuses you continually, then you might be more willing to forge money.
I understand.

endlessQuestions
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6426

Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?

Post by endlessQuestions »

Niemand wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:25 pm
Cruiserdude wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:17 pm
Niemand wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:04 pm
Cruiserdude wrote: January 27th, 2023, 1:57 pm
This is new to me. Hmm.
Maybe best to see it through the lens of the time. Today's LDS are ultra-conformist and tied in with the world. The LDS back then were rebellious against secular government or at least sceptical of a government which was persecuting them.

There is also the case of the so called Mormon Mafia around Howard Hughes but that is another story.
I believe most, even TBMs, know we were persecuted in the early times and thus the early members were leery of government. That's known and understood by most members that were at least raised in church/around the church.
I did not know Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were part of a counterfeiting network. If that's what they were doing, and they were being persecuted, of course they're hesitant and leery of government.
Im not implying or stating anything more than that.
If the government abuses you continually, then you might be more willing to forge money.
Do we need to set an appointment up for you with your bishop, Niemand? ;)

endlessQuestions
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6426

Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?

Post by endlessQuestions »

endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:14 pm
Dusty Wanderer wrote: January 27th, 2023, 1:56 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 11:59 am Just one more, and I'll leave it for you. This specifically mentions Joseph fleeing:

"Chester is only 8 miles from Kirtland, Ohio, epicenter of the infamous 1837 Mormon counterfeiting scandal surrounding the ‘Kirtland Saftey Society’ I described above. When this scandal erupted in November the Mormons— including Joseph Smith Jr.— were run out of town.

Louisa Miner and Stephen Young had their first child, Danl [he used “Daniel” after 1870], on August 12th, 1838 in Stephenson County, Illinois. Therefore, Louisa and Stephen left Ohio between 1835-38; a window which includes the time Joseph Smith Jr. fled, though the Stephen Youngs went to Illinois, rather than to Missouri with “the saints”. Just one year later predatory actions by the Mormon community would lead to their being driven out of Missouri to Illinois."

and

"Counterfeiting networks were inter-generational, extended-family affairs at this time; networks expanded via marrying daughters to other crime families or sons/cousins/uncles moving westward. Counterfeiters would settle in places which supported their trade: too wild for law enforcement; yet near economically developed regions; and close to borders where law enforcement jurisdiction was ‘fuzzy’."

Good luck with your research!

EDIT: Check out that picture of Brigham! What do you see?
An interesting thing I saw was accusations of Oliver C's involvement in the counterfeiting. But in 1845, long after he's been gone and a year after Joseph's murder, charges continue to follow Brigham, among others both in and kicked-out of the church. What a web to untangle, if that's even possible.

RE: BY picture; I see the masonic compass and square centered neatly over his heart.
I'd sure love to have a date on that picture.

Because if it's post martyrdom, wouldn't you think BY would really, really hate those guys that murdered Brother Joseph?

Not keep their symbols near and dear to his heart?

Maybe I'll look into it a bit.

And I'm telling you, AGF was simply here looking to see if people had any discernment, and were willing to do some work. He mixed in some gems with a whole bunch of crap, and when he found that nobody was going to take what he was offering and run with it, I think he just bailed.

I'll reach out to him and see if he wants to come back.
Here are the revers image lookup results for that picture. Shouldn't be hard to find the date from here:

https://tineye.com/search/63ee0e9d2ac89 ... esc&page=1

And, if we just think about it logically, this HAS to be post martyrdom, right? Because they didn't have the technology for these kinds of photos pre-martyrdom?

Is that sound logic? Or am I off-base there?

EDIT:

Wanna see something funny?

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/03 ... -huntsman/

Look at the Salt Lake Tribune mock a Huntsman who is asking for his tithing money back.

You think they chose that picture randomly? And do you see the attribution? Provided by the corporate church.

Epic trolling.

Well played, SLT, and LDSCo. Well played, indeed.

EDIT TWO: seems Brigham was fond of his pin, and wore it more than once:

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/ans ... nvolvement

Still no year... but it HAS to be post martyrdom. It's almost like Brigham is bragging about his affiliation with the very group he claimed killed "Brother Joseph".

Apparently, it didn't strike anyone at FAIR as odd that Brigham, in a state that the Masons had banned, was wearing the symbol of the fiends who had assassinated his rank and file leader. Maybe I should have got a degree in history, or something.

EDIT THREE:

Well, it's going to be close. Turns out photography came to America around 1840, so these could be pre-martyrdom photos. He certainly looks young, doesn't he? I'll keep digging.
Last edited by endlessQuestions on January 27th, 2023, 3:04 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Cruiserdude
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5359
Location: SEKS

Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?

Post by Cruiserdude »

endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:18 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:14 pm
Dusty Wanderer wrote: January 27th, 2023, 1:56 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 11:59 am Just one more, and I'll leave it for you. This specifically mentions Joseph fleeing:

"Chester is only 8 miles from Kirtland, Ohio, epicenter of the infamous 1837 Mormon counterfeiting scandal surrounding the ‘Kirtland Saftey Society’ I described above. When this scandal erupted in November the Mormons— including Joseph Smith Jr.— were run out of town.

Louisa Miner and Stephen Young had their first child, Danl [he used “Daniel” after 1870], on August 12th, 1838 in Stephenson County, Illinois. Therefore, Louisa and Stephen left Ohio between 1835-38; a window which includes the time Joseph Smith Jr. fled, though the Stephen Youngs went to Illinois, rather than to Missouri with “the saints”. Just one year later predatory actions by the Mormon community would lead to their being driven out of Missouri to Illinois."

and

"Counterfeiting networks were inter-generational, extended-family affairs at this time; networks expanded via marrying daughters to other crime families or sons/cousins/uncles moving westward. Counterfeiters would settle in places which supported their trade: too wild for law enforcement; yet near economically developed regions; and close to borders where law enforcement jurisdiction was ‘fuzzy’."

Good luck with your research!

EDIT: Check out that picture of Brigham! What do you see?
An interesting thing I saw was accusations of Oliver C's involvement in the counterfeiting. But in 1845, long after he's been gone and a year after Joseph's murder, charges continue to follow Brigham, among others both in and kicked-out of the church. What a web to untangle, if that's even possible.

RE: BY picture; I see the masonic compass and square centered neatly over his heart.
I'd sure love to have a date on that picture.

Because if it's post martyrdom, wouldn't you think BY would really, really hate those guys that murdered Brother Joseph?

Not keep their symbols near and dear to his heart?

Maybe I'll look into it a bit.

And I'm telling you, AGF was simply here looking to see if people had any discernment, and were willing to do some work. He mixed in some gems with a whole bunch of crap, and when he found that nobody was going to take what he was offering and run with it, I think he just bailed.

I'll reach out to him and see if he wants to come back.
Here's my invitation to AGF to return:

Hi AGF,

My name is endlessQuestions.

I came across your railroad thread awhile back and recognized what you were trying to do.

I want you to know there's now a group of people who see the value in the information you were sharing, and there are multiple threads that have spawned by following some of your "clues".

We'd love to have you come back around, and share more with us, if you'd like to.

Sorry I missed the original rodeo. Don't know what I was doing at the time, but completely missed the show!
It's worth a shot, hermano 🙏🙏

User avatar
Dusty Wanderer
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1411

Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?

Post by Dusty Wanderer »

Niemand wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:25 pm
Cruiserdude wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:17 pm
Niemand wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:04 pm
Cruiserdude wrote: January 27th, 2023, 1:57 pm
This is new to me. Hmm.
Maybe best to see it through the lens of the time. Today's LDS are ultra-conformist and tied in with the world. The LDS back then were rebellious against secular government or at least sceptical of a government which was persecuting them.

There is also the case of the so called Mormon Mafia around Howard Hughes but that is another story.
I believe most, even TBMs, know we were persecuted in the early times and thus the early members were leery of government. That's known and understood by most members that were at least raised in church/around the church.
I did not know Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were part of a counterfeiting network. If that's what they were doing, and they were being persecuted, of course they're hesitant and leery of government.
Im not implying or stating anything more than that.
If the government abuses you continually, then you might be more willing to forge money.
True, if the forgeries followed the abuse. But what if it was the other way around? I don't know enough to make any judgment on it yet.

User avatar
Dusty Wanderer
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1411

Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?

Post by Dusty Wanderer »

Cruiserdude wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:17 pm
Niemand wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:04 pm
Cruiserdude wrote: January 27th, 2023, 1:57 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 11:49 am This one seems promising:

Jan 6, 2022 — Joseph Smith's family had been engaged in counterfeiting ('passing' the bills) since at least the 1810s; Joseph Smith Jr. since the 1820s; while .

https://www.andreanolen.com/home/the-mo ... mon-youngs

Looks like there are whole books on the topic:

Mormon involvement in organized crime is a topic that is rarely discussed in legacy media, so I will provide some history to this phenomenon. Two excellent books on the subject are Secret Combinations: Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting 1800-1847, by Kathleen Kimball Melonakos and A Nation of Counterfeiters: Capitalists, Con Men, and the Making of the United States by Stephen Mihm.
This is new to me. Hmm.
Maybe best to see it through the lens of the time. Today's LDS are ultra-conformist and tied in with the world. The LDS back then were rebellious against secular government or at least sceptical of a government which was persecuting them.

There is also the case of the so called Mormon Mafia around Howard Hughes but that is another story.
I believe most, even TBMs, know we were persecuted in the early times and thus the early members were leery of government. That's known and understood by most members that were at least raised in church/around the church.
I did not know Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were part of a counterfeiting network. If that's what they were doing, and they were being persecuted, of course they're hesitant and leery of government.
Im not implying or stating anything more than that.
I'm hesitant to say who was involved in what yet. One things for sure, there were some bad apples in the box.

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13997

Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?

Post by Niemand »

endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:29 pm Do we need to set an appointment up for you with your bishop, Niemand? ;)
😂 Money forgery is not part of my skillset! It would require expensive, specialist equipment.

About the nearest I came to ths was some story about phony pound coins. The report said that if you took them to the bank they would give you twenty pence (or whatever it was) for your trouble. I'm afraid to say I'd just pass it on. I've no wish to be eighty pence down on each coin and I consider all money to be a kind of confidence trick anyway. (A digicurrency even worse.)

Ado
captain of 100
Posts: 403

Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?

Post by Ado »

I remember watching this a while ago, so thought I'd share it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klovZ-sWyH4

video presents the theory that Joseph was not counterfeiting money, but was begging others to stop, and it may have led to the destruction of the printing press.

User avatar
Dusty Wanderer
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1411

Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?

Post by Dusty Wanderer »

Ado wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:50 pm I remember watching this a while ago, so thought I'd share it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klovZ-sWyH4

video presents the theory that Joseph was not counterfeiting money, but was begging others to stop, and it may have led to the destruction of the printing press.
Thanks for the heads-up on this. Will review.

I have noticed some parallels in the departures (missions, business, other) and the returns of certain prominent figures that coincide with periods of peace and trouble. I'm still putting some of it together for review and vetting it out. If anything comes of it, I'll post here.

Been wondering lately if certain figures that knew some of Joseph's alleged secrets, could have used those to keep his silence on things he knew they were doing. So he chose to address them broadly in the public square. That's why you see accounts like this:
[Zion High Council Minutes]
Thomas B. Marsh testifies that while in Kirtland last summer, David W. Patten asked Oliver Cowdery if he Joseph Smith jr had confessed to his wife that he was guilty of adultery with a certain girl, when Oliver Cowdery cocked up his eye very knowingly and hesitated to answer the question, saying he did not know as he was bound to answer the question yet conveyed the idea that it was true. Last fall after Oliver came to this place he heard a conversation take place between Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery when J. Smith asked him if he had ever confessed to him that he was guilty of adultery, when after a considerable winking &c. he said no. Joseph then <​asked​> him if he ever told him that he confessed to any body, when he answered no.

(cf. https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... transcript)
Last edited by Dusty Wanderer on January 28th, 2023, 1:30 pm, edited 4 times in total.

endlessQuestions
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6426

Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?

Post by endlessQuestions »

endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:30 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:14 pm
Dusty Wanderer wrote: January 27th, 2023, 1:56 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 11:59 am Just one more, and I'll leave it for you. This specifically mentions Joseph fleeing:

"Chester is only 8 miles from Kirtland, Ohio, epicenter of the infamous 1837 Mormon counterfeiting scandal surrounding the ‘Kirtland Saftey Society’ I described above. When this scandal erupted in November the Mormons— including Joseph Smith Jr.— were run out of town.

Louisa Miner and Stephen Young had their first child, Danl [he used “Daniel” after 1870], on August 12th, 1838 in Stephenson County, Illinois. Therefore, Louisa and Stephen left Ohio between 1835-38; a window which includes the time Joseph Smith Jr. fled, though the Stephen Youngs went to Illinois, rather than to Missouri with “the saints”. Just one year later predatory actions by the Mormon community would lead to their being driven out of Missouri to Illinois."

and

"Counterfeiting networks were inter-generational, extended-family affairs at this time; networks expanded via marrying daughters to other crime families or sons/cousins/uncles moving westward. Counterfeiters would settle in places which supported their trade: too wild for law enforcement; yet near economically developed regions; and close to borders where law enforcement jurisdiction was ‘fuzzy’."

Good luck with your research!

EDIT: Check out that picture of Brigham! What do you see?
An interesting thing I saw was accusations of Oliver C's involvement in the counterfeiting. But in 1845, long after he's been gone and a year after Joseph's murder, charges continue to follow Brigham, among others both in and kicked-out of the church. What a web to untangle, if that's even possible.

RE: BY picture; I see the masonic compass and square centered neatly over his heart.
I'd sure love to have a date on that picture.

Because if it's post martyrdom, wouldn't you think BY would really, really hate those guys that murdered Brother Joseph?

Not keep their symbols near and dear to his heart?

Maybe I'll look into it a bit.

And I'm telling you, AGF was simply here looking to see if people had any discernment, and were willing to do some work. He mixed in some gems with a whole bunch of crap, and when he found that nobody was going to take what he was offering and run with it, I think he just bailed.

I'll reach out to him and see if he wants to come back.
Here are the revers image lookup results for that picture. Shouldn't be hard to find the date from here:

https://tineye.com/search/63ee0e9d2ac89 ... esc&page=1

And, if we just think about it logically, this HAS to be post martyrdom, right? Because they didn't have the technology for these kinds of photos pre-martyrdom?

Is that sound logic? Or am I off-base there?

EDIT:

Wanna see something funny?

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/03 ... -huntsman/

Look at the Salt Lake Tribune mock a Huntsman who is asking for his tithing money back.

You think they chose that picture randomly? And do you see the attribution? Provided by the corporate church.

Epic trolling.

Well played, SLT, and LDSCo. Well played, indeed.

EDIT TWO: seems Brigham was fond of his pin, and wore it more than once:

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/ans ... nvolvement

Still no year... but it HAS to be post martyrdom. It's almost like Brigham is bragging about his affiliation with the very group he claimed killed "Brother Joseph".

Apparently, it didn't strike anyone at FAIR as odd that Brigham, in a state that the Masons had banned, was wearing the symbol of the fiends who had assassinated his rank and file leader. Maybe I should have got a degree in history, or something.

EDIT THREE:

Well, it's going to be close. Turns out photography came to America around 1840, so these could be pre-martyrdom photos. He certainly looks young, doesn't he? I'll keep digging.
Going to put this in its own comment.

BINGO.

Post martyrdom.

Circa 1852-1854.

Picture taken by a Cannon.

The person, Cannon. Not the camera, Canon. ;)

I could have told you that, though, because ALMOST EVERY TIME something weird in the Church happens, there's a Cannon involved.

Gifted by... the Marriotts.

Passed from Youngs, to Nibleys, to Richards.

Patterns.

Lots of patterns.

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/vie ... text=byusq

Can I more firmly establish that Brigham claimed the Masons killed Joseph?

I think I ought to try.

EDIT: Well, Dr. Holzapfel was kind enough to give us his email address, so I emailed him. BUT...

That name looked familiar, and sure enough, he's now ELDER Holzapfel, so I'm not sure my email will get to him.

I can't send another message to his church account, as I promised not to send any more unsolicited messages, but we'll track him down somehow... or someone who can answer our question. Here's what I said:

##### BEGIN #####

Dr. Holzapfel,

I recently was doing some research and came across a picture of Brigham Young with a Freemasonry pin. My research on its provenance led to your paper, "A Superlative Image: An Original Daguerreotype of Brigham Young", and I was hoping I could ask you a quick question.

Has anybody stopped to think about how strange it is that Brigham Young would be wearing Masonic symbols in the 1850s?

To my knowledge, the Masons had banned Mormons at that point, to the point they wouldn't even allow a Lodge to be built in Utah.

And to my knowledge, the common narrative amongst church members was that the Masons were responsible for assassinating "Brother Joseph" - at a time when he was a candidate for President of the United States of America.

Why would Brigham be wearing "Masonic merchandise", for lack of a better term, nearly ten years after that group had killed his file leader in the Church?

Anyway, just wondering if anyone has thought or written about this.

Thanks,

Justin W. Riggs
720-505-1323
juriggs@gmail.com

##### END #####
Last edited by endlessQuestions on January 27th, 2023, 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Dusty Wanderer
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1411

Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?

Post by Dusty Wanderer »

endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 3:08 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:30 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:14 pm
Dusty Wanderer wrote: January 27th, 2023, 1:56 pm

An interesting thing I saw was accusations of Oliver C's involvement in the counterfeiting. But in 1845, long after he's been gone and a year after Joseph's murder, charges continue to follow Brigham, among others both in and kicked-out of the church. What a web to untangle, if that's even possible.

RE: BY picture; I see the masonic compass and square centered neatly over his heart.
I'd sure love to have a date on that picture.

Because if it's post martyrdom, wouldn't you think BY would really, really hate those guys that murdered Brother Joseph?

Not keep their symbols near and dear to his heart?

Maybe I'll look into it a bit.

And I'm telling you, AGF was simply here looking to see if people had any discernment, and were willing to do some work. He mixed in some gems with a whole bunch of crap, and when he found that nobody was going to take what he was offering and run with it, I think he just bailed.

I'll reach out to him and see if he wants to come back.
Here are the revers image lookup results for that picture. Shouldn't be hard to find the date from here:

https://tineye.com/search/63ee0e9d2ac89 ... esc&page=1

And, if we just think about it logically, this HAS to be post martyrdom, right? Because they didn't have the technology for these kinds of photos pre-martyrdom?

Is that sound logic? Or am I off-base there?

EDIT:

Wanna see something funny?

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/03 ... -huntsman/

Look at the Salt Lake Tribune mock a Huntsman who is asking for his tithing money back.

You think they chose that picture randomly? And do you see the attribution? Provided by the corporate church.

Epic trolling.

Well played, SLT, and LDSCo. Well played, indeed.

EDIT TWO: seems Brigham was fond of his pin, and wore it more than once:

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/ans ... nvolvement

Still no year... but it HAS to be post martyrdom. It's almost like Brigham is bragging about his affiliation with the very group he claimed killed "Brother Joseph".

Apparently, it didn't strike anyone at FAIR as odd that Brigham, in a state that the Masons had banned, was wearing the symbol of the fiends who had assassinated his rank and file leader. Maybe I should have got a degree in history, or something.

EDIT THREE:

Well, it's going to be close. Turns out photography came to America around 1840, so these could be pre-martyrdom photos. He certainly looks young, doesn't he? I'll keep digging.
Going to put this in its own comment.

BINGO.

Post martyrdom.

Circa 1852-1854.

Picture taken by a Cannon.

The person, Cannon. Not the camera, Canon. ;)

I could have told you that, though, because ALMOST EVERY TIME something weird in the Church happens, there's a Cannon involved.

Gifted by... the Marriotts.

Passed from Youngs, to Nibleys, to Richards.

Patterns.

Lots of patterns.

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/vie ... text=byusq

Can I more firmly establish that Brigham claimed the Masons killed Joseph?

I think I ought to try.
Wow, some of those family connections go all the way back, don't they. I wonder what else is out there in private possession that could be significant evidence of things as they really are, but remain hidden in family vaults.

endlessQuestions
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6426

Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?

Post by endlessQuestions »

endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 3:08 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:30 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:14 pm
Dusty Wanderer wrote: January 27th, 2023, 1:56 pm

An interesting thing I saw was accusations of Oliver C's involvement in the counterfeiting. But in 1845, long after he's been gone and a year after Joseph's murder, charges continue to follow Brigham, among others both in and kicked-out of the church. What a web to untangle, if that's even possible.

RE: BY picture; I see the masonic compass and square centered neatly over his heart.
I'd sure love to have a date on that picture.

Because if it's post martyrdom, wouldn't you think BY would really, really hate those guys that murdered Brother Joseph?

Not keep their symbols near and dear to his heart?

Maybe I'll look into it a bit.

And I'm telling you, AGF was simply here looking to see if people had any discernment, and were willing to do some work. He mixed in some gems with a whole bunch of crap, and when he found that nobody was going to take what he was offering and run with it, I think he just bailed.

I'll reach out to him and see if he wants to come back.
Here are the revers image lookup results for that picture. Shouldn't be hard to find the date from here:

https://tineye.com/search/63ee0e9d2ac89 ... esc&page=1

And, if we just think about it logically, this HAS to be post martyrdom, right? Because they didn't have the technology for these kinds of photos pre-martyrdom?

Is that sound logic? Or am I off-base there?

EDIT:

Wanna see something funny?

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/03 ... -huntsman/

Look at the Salt Lake Tribune mock a Huntsman who is asking for his tithing money back.

You think they chose that picture randomly? And do you see the attribution? Provided by the corporate church.

Epic trolling.

Well played, SLT, and LDSCo. Well played, indeed.

EDIT TWO: seems Brigham was fond of his pin, and wore it more than once:

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/ans ... nvolvement

Still no year... but it HAS to be post martyrdom. It's almost like Brigham is bragging about his affiliation with the very group he claimed killed "Brother Joseph".

Apparently, it didn't strike anyone at FAIR as odd that Brigham, in a state that the Masons had banned, was wearing the symbol of the fiends who had assassinated his rank and file leader. Maybe I should have got a degree in history, or something.

EDIT THREE:

Well, it's going to be close. Turns out photography came to America around 1840, so these could be pre-martyrdom photos. He certainly looks young, doesn't he? I'll keep digging.
Going to put this in its own comment.

BINGO.

Post martyrdom.

Circa 1852-1854.

Picture taken by a Cannon.

The person, Cannon. Not the camera, Canon. ;)

I could have told you that, though, because ALMOST EVERY TIME something weird in the Church happens, there's a Cannon involved.

Gifted by... the Marriotts.

Passed from Youngs, to Nibleys, to Richards.

Patterns.

Lots of patterns.

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/vie ... text=byusq

Can I more firmly establish that Brigham claimed the Masons killed Joseph?

I think I ought to try.

EDIT: Well, Dr. Holzapfel was kind enough to give us his email address, so I emailed him. BUT...

That name looked familiar, and sure enough, he's now ELDER Holzapfel, so I'm not sure my email will get to him.

I can't send another message to his church account, as I promised not to send any more unsolicited messages, but we'll track him down somehow... or someone who can answer our question. Here's what I said:

##### BEGIN #####

Dr. Holzapfel,

I recently was doing some research and came across a picture of Brigham Young with a Freemasonry pin. My research on its provenance led to your paper, "A Superlative Image: An Original Daguerreotype of Brigham Young", and I was hoping I could ask you a quick question.

Has anybody stopped to think about how strange it is that Brigham Young would be wearing Masonic symbols in the 1850s?

To my knowledge, the Masons had banned Mormons at that point, to the point they wouldn't even allow a Lodge to be built in Utah.

And to my knowledge, the common narrative amongst church members was that the Masons were responsible for assassinating "Brother Joseph" - at a time when he was a candidate for President of the United States of America.

Why would Brigham be wearing "Masonic merchandise", for lack of a better term, nearly ten years after that group had killed his file leader in the Church?

Anyway, just wondering if anyone has thought or written about this.

Thanks,

Justin W. Riggs
720-505-1323
juriggs@gmail.com

##### END #####
Ok, new comment for new information...

Here's a claim that Brigham believed the Freemasons had murdered Joseph and Hyrum, but with no attribution. I'll keep working on it. This is really, really interesting. I can't think of a single good reason Brigham would be wearing that pin in the 1850s. Can anyone else?

https://www.fromthedesk.org/joseph-smit ... -infinite/

"Lodge work continued to be done in Nauvoo after the death of Joseph Smith. But many leaders—including Brigham Young—believed that Freemasons in Illinois and nationwide had conspired to kill Joseph and Hyrum Smith, and that non-Latter-day Saint Freemasonry operated contrary to the interests of the Church.

After the exodus from Nauvoo, there were many Freemasons in the church who hoped for the formation of a Latter-day Saint-controlled Grand Lodge within the State of Deseret. However, Brigham feared that Masons of other faiths moving into the territory were plotting against the pioneer Saints. He thought that the establishment of such a Grand Lodge would in the end be used to destroy the Church and its work. Brigham ultimately decided the Saints should put their energies into building the kingdom of God."

Photographic evidence suggest otherwise?

EDIT ONE:

Another similar claim with no attribution:

'Bruno doesn’t know if that Smith was giving the Masonic call of distress, but Smith’s contemporaries said he was. That includes Brigham Young, who was an apostle under Smith, and one of Smith’s wives. And it was said in LDS newspapers that Smith gave the masonic call of distress, Bruno said.

LDS were “very, very angry” about masons not helping Smith when he needed it, Bruno said.

“(It’s) one of the reasons why Brigham Young did not want to have a Masonic lodge,” Bruno said. “(LDS) were angry that the Masons did not help Joseph Smith in his moment of need.”'

EDIT TWO: Looks like Brigham came to the party as a Mason, along with some other familiar names:

http://www.mormonismi.net/temppeli/durh ... 1974.shtml

"By the end of 1832, Joseph Smith had welcomed new brethren, along with their influences, into the Church. Men such as W. W. Phelps, Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, and Newel K. Whitney, each of whom had been deeply involved in Masonry, from one side or the other, before their entrance into the Church."

EDIT THREE: Evidence that it was a commonly held belief that Masons were responsible by Brigham's associates:

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/ans ... ge_jail%3F
Last edited by endlessQuestions on January 27th, 2023, 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

endlessQuestions
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6426

Re: Joseph Smith missing for some time?

Post by endlessQuestions »

An interesting aside... maybe this is why God knocked down the Nauvoo temple?

"William Weeks (made a Mason in Nauvoo Lodge. M. R. H.), the architect of the Nauvoo Temple, has many drawings in the Historians Office ~f the Church. This is one of the preliminary drawings - first drawings - first draft drawings of the Nauvoo Temple. You will notice that it has the beautiful picture in the whole front of the Temple of the All-Seeing Eye, and he was going to have a beautiful angel stand on the top of the Temple. Later, another design by William Weeks again: - modified the All-Seeing Eye, trimmed down the angel on the top of the Temple, and then again, in another plan, he has the small angel on the top - not a huge lady as was before - and this one comes pretty close to the way the Nauvoo Temple looked like.

Now, in the Visitors' Center at the Nauvoo Restoration, you see a mock-up of the Temple and on the very top there is, on the weather vane, this little angel. Well, that little angel was photographed in the next picture. There is the angel: the beautiful horn, the Book of Mormon in the other hand. And, then, if you will notice, what looks as if there are crosses on the staff or the spear which is the weather vane. Do you see those crosses there? We blew that up - it is not a very clear picture - to let you know that it is a beautiful compass and square, in the typical Masonic fashion.

Now, I wondered where in the world did they get, on the mock-up of the Temple in the Visitors' Center, the compass and square - the Masonic symbols; in fact, the most probably universal Masonic symbols that are known in Masonry. Where did they get that? Until, in the Historian's Office in Salt Lake City, we found the drawing of William Weeks, who very clearly employed the Masonic symbols on that angel. (I have been informed that the particular illustration referred to, in the Visitors' Center, had been removed when the Center opened the next morning. M. B. H.)"

Wonder if that old compass and square are on the new building...

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