A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

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John Tavner
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Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by John Tavner »

Pazooka wrote: January 25th, 2023, 12:39 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 25th, 2023, 11:24 am
Pazooka wrote: January 25th, 2023, 9:43 am
John Tavner wrote: January 24th, 2023, 11:24 pm

So the law =commandments = the yoke? So you also believe living the law according to the Old Testament commands = the easy part?

What is the Burden? And what makes it light?
Apparently, Jesus’ listeners knew about the yoke He was referring to. It was the “yoke of heaven.”

David wrote about his love for the law in the following terms:
The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul…
The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart:
The commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.
The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever:
The judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.
More to be desired are they than gold…sweeter also than honey…
Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
~Psalms 19


Paul and the author of Acts go and flip that upside down, making God’s law a curse and a byword. Perhaps that should cause us some concern.

One would suppose that the law allows one to be yoked with heaven/God, who is mighty in strength, making whatever burden is being borne light.

Interesting also that yokes are typically placed on the same animal that is associated with the high priest of Israel.

The ideas linking law and divine love still persist even today, as seen in the following paper intro:
This isn't about Paul- we have another thread on that. I'm asking questions about what you believe (as it appears you ahve become a believer in living hte old Israelite laws) Jesus meant when He said His Yoke is easy and His burden is light etc..
Ok. So the Yoke is heaven, and not the law- what does it mean that it is easy? What does it mean that His burden is light?

"29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle (meek or whatever you interpret the greek word to be) and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
Paul is relevant

Yoke is not heaven

Maybe read again
With respect, he isn't. I'm asking what supports your position, not to defend it.

Ok so the Law, is the yoke of heaven which is easy? You believe living the law as the israelites did produces love? Does this make it easy? If I am not understanding please make it clear. - What makes it easy?

I'm not asking you to defend or attack anyone. I'm asking what you believe it means. What makes the yoke easy and the burden light? How is coming unto Him doing this? What does rest to your soul mean/ how does coming unto Him give you rest to your soul? Have you found it? Is it more of a theory to you and you are seeking to experience it? (again not attacking questions, I'm trying to understand and we are all in different places in regards to these things).

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Pazooka
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Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by Pazooka »

John Tavner wrote: January 25th, 2023, 12:46 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 25th, 2023, 12:39 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 25th, 2023, 11:24 am
Pazooka wrote: January 25th, 2023, 9:43 am

Apparently, Jesus’ listeners knew about the yoke He was referring to. It was the “yoke of heaven.”

David wrote about his love for the law in the following terms:
The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul…
The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart:
The commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.
The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever:
The judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.
More to be desired are they than gold…sweeter also than honey…
Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
~Psalms 19


Paul and the author of Acts go and flip that upside down, making God’s law a curse and a byword. Perhaps that should cause us some concern.

One would suppose that the law allows one to be yoked with heaven/God, who is mighty in strength, making whatever burden is being borne light.

Interesting also that yokes are typically placed on the same animal that is associated with the high priest of Israel.

The ideas linking law and divine love still persist even today, as seen in the following paper intro:
This isn't about Paul- we have another thread on that. I'm asking questions about what you believe (as it appears you ahve become a believer in living hte old Israelite laws) Jesus meant when He said His Yoke is easy and His burden is light etc..
Ok. So the Yoke is heaven, and not the law- what does it mean that it is easy? What does it mean that His burden is light?

"29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle (meek or whatever you interpret the greek word to be) and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
Paul is relevant

Yoke is not heaven

Maybe read again
With respect, he isn't. I'm asking what supports your position, not to defend it.

Ok so the Law, is the yoke of heaven which is easy? You believe living the law as the israelites did produces love? Does this make it easy? If I am not understanding please make it clear. - What makes it easy?

I'm not asking you to defend or attack anyone. I'm asking what you believe it means. What makes the yoke easy and the burden light? How is coming unto Him doing this? What does rest to your soul mean/ how does coming unto Him give you rest to your soul? Have you found it? Is it more of a theory to you and you are seeking to experience it? (again not attacking questions, I'm trying to understand and we are all in different places in regards to these things).
That was some classy gaslighting, there.

I don’t feel the need to try and keep explaining. The scriptures are before you just as sure as they’re before me. Let your understanding be according to the desires of your heart.

John Tavner
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Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by John Tavner »

Pazooka wrote: January 25th, 2023, 1:16 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 25th, 2023, 12:46 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 25th, 2023, 12:39 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 25th, 2023, 11:24 am
This isn't about Paul- we have another thread on that. I'm asking questions about what you believe (as it appears you ahve become a believer in living hte old Israelite laws) Jesus meant when He said His Yoke is easy and His burden is light etc..
Ok. So the Yoke is heaven, and not the law- what does it mean that it is easy? What does it mean that His burden is light?

"29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle (meek or whatever you interpret the greek word to be) and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
Paul is relevant

Yoke is not heaven

Maybe read again
With respect, he isn't. I'm asking what supports your position, not to defend it.

Ok so the Law, is the yoke of heaven which is easy? You believe living the law as the israelites did produces love? Does this make it easy? If I am not understanding please make it clear. - What makes it easy?

I'm not asking you to defend or attack anyone. I'm asking what you believe it means. What makes the yoke easy and the burden light? How is coming unto Him doing this? What does rest to your soul mean/ how does coming unto Him give you rest to your soul? Have you found it? Is it more of a theory to you and you are seeking to experience it? (again not attacking questions, I'm trying to understand and we are all in different places in regards to these things).
That was some classy gaslighting, there.

I don’t feel the need to try and keep explaining. The scriptures are before you just as sure as they’re before me. Let your understanding be according to the desires of your heart.
I'm not sure if you understand what gaslighting means - I'm asking questions to understand this isn't a trap- I haven't even mentioned Paul I don't care about Paul in this situation unless he supports your position - the same goes with anyone else. If you have to attack someone of something to support your position, it isn't really supported.. You have told me what the yoke is (I think, I am asking) or I can kind of gather what it is. I do not recall you telling me what hte burden is or how it is light or how you believe the yoke is easy. I am happy to be corrected. The comment about the theory is a legitimate question - is it theory or is it actually belief and experience - it was intended to let you speak freely, but it seems it caused you to feel more offended.

For instance I might say :I believe the yoke is xyz and zpq is how it is easy. Explain like I am a little child what it means, so I can understand your point of view.

I don't know if this is what you mean, but I might say if I were you. I believe the law is Jesus' yoke, but the law ties to heaven- when we are tied to heaven through the law we are loved. When we love our perspective changes and the yoke doesn't appear to be different from the outside, but because our perspective has shifted, it is easy as we are guided by God. That is the best I can come up with, but I don't know what you believe- and nothing has been really explained in regards to what the burden is and how it is made light other than sharing scriptures and attacking Paul - but no clear thesis has been presented.
Last edited by John Tavner on January 25th, 2023, 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Pazooka
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Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by Pazooka »

John Tavner wrote: January 25th, 2023, 1:23 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 25th, 2023, 1:16 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 25th, 2023, 12:46 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 25th, 2023, 12:39 pm

Paul is relevant

Yoke is not heaven

Maybe read again
With respect, he isn't. I'm asking what supports your position, not to defend it.

Ok so the Law, is the yoke of heaven which is easy? You believe living the law as the israelites did produces love? Does this make it easy? If I am not understanding please make it clear. - What makes it easy?

I'm not asking you to defend or attack anyone. I'm asking what you believe it means. What makes the yoke easy and the burden light? How is coming unto Him doing this? What does rest to your soul mean/ how does coming unto Him give you rest to your soul? Have you found it? Is it more of a theory to you and you are seeking to experience it? (again not attacking questions, I'm trying to understand and we are all in different places in regards to these things).
That was some classy gaslighting, there.

I don’t feel the need to try and keep explaining. The scriptures are before you just as sure as they’re before me. Let your understanding be according to the desires of your heart.
I'm not sure if you understand what gaslighting means - I'm asking questions to understand this isn't a trap- I haven't even mentioned Paul I don't care about Paul in this situation unless he supports your position - the same goes with anyone else. If you have to attack someone of something to support your position, it isn't really supported.. You have told me what the yoke is (I think, I am asking) or I can kind of gather what it is. I do not recall you telling me what hte burden is or how it is light or how you believe the yoke is easy. I am happy to be corrected. The comment about the theory is a legitimate question - is it theory or is it actually belief and experience - it was intended to let you speak freely, but it seems it caused you to feel more offended.

For instance I might say :I believe the yoke is xyz and zpq is how it is easy. Explain like I am a little child what it means, so I can understand your point of view.
Just keep that gaslighting coming. Yes, I am an attacker. Everyone can see that. Attack, attack, attack. My favorite thing to do ;)

I am not offended. Just totally uninterested. You asked a good question in the OP. But with what intent…remains to be seen.

John Tavner
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Posts: 3355

Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by John Tavner »

Pazooka wrote: January 25th, 2023, 1:28 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 25th, 2023, 1:23 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 25th, 2023, 1:16 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 25th, 2023, 12:46 pm

With respect, he isn't. I'm asking what supports your position, not to defend it.

Ok so the Law, is the yoke of heaven which is easy? You believe living the law as the israelites did produces love? Does this make it easy? If I am not understanding please make it clear. - What makes it easy?

I'm not asking you to defend or attack anyone. I'm asking what you believe it means. What makes the yoke easy and the burden light? How is coming unto Him doing this? What does rest to your soul mean/ how does coming unto Him give you rest to your soul? Have you found it? Is it more of a theory to you and you are seeking to experience it? (again not attacking questions, I'm trying to understand and we are all in different places in regards to these things).
That was some classy gaslighting, there.

I don’t feel the need to try and keep explaining. The scriptures are before you just as sure as they’re before me. Let your understanding be according to the desires of your heart.
I'm not sure if you understand what gaslighting means - I'm asking questions to understand this isn't a trap- I haven't even mentioned Paul I don't care about Paul in this situation unless he supports your position - the same goes with anyone else. If you have to attack someone of something to support your position, it isn't really supported.. You have told me what the yoke is (I think, I am asking) or I can kind of gather what it is. I do not recall you telling me what hte burden is or how it is light or how you believe the yoke is easy. I am happy to be corrected. The comment about the theory is a legitimate question - is it theory or is it actually belief and experience - it was intended to let you speak freely, but it seems it caused you to feel more offended.

For instance I might say :I believe the yoke is xyz and zpq is how it is easy. Explain like I am a little child what it means, so I can understand your point of view.
Just keep that gaslighting coming. Yes, I am an attacker. Everyone can see that. Attack, attack, attack. My favorite thing to do ;)

I am not offended. Just totally uninterested. You asked a good question in the OP. But with what intent…remains to be seen.
Explain to me as I'm a little child what you mean by gaslighting so I understand what you mean. People throw that term out. Please give examples so I can attempt to either understand what you mean by me gaslighting you and stop it or explain what I mean.

This is literally an exercise to understand how and why people believe what they believe. This particular thread is inquisitive - turns out, I say what I mean.

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SJR3t2
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Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by SJR3t2 »

John Tavner wrote: January 24th, 2023, 10:22 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: January 24th, 2023, 10:01 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:45 pm Not a challenging question, I"m more curious - What do you believe Jesus meant when He said in Matt 11: "29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
I guess the question might better be posed as do you see that a future promise rather than one that can be applied now? Feel free to explain your views on this scripture.
David stated in Psalms that YHWH's laws are easy. The yoke is the "cross" that is used for the where two animals work together and the master puts a more experienced one with a learning one.

Many verses after 3 Nephi 11 showing Torah is still valid. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgUl1lc ... n&index=35
So you believe His yoke are the laws which are easy to live. What is His burden which is light?
yoke and burden are pointing to the same thing in my opinion

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SJR3t2
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Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by SJR3t2 »

Pazooka wrote: January 24th, 2023, 11:00 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:45 pm Not a challenging question, I"m more curious - What do you believe Jesus meant when He said in Matt 11: "29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
I guess the question might better be posed as do you see that a future promise rather than one that can be applied now? Feel free to explain your views on this scripture.
First of all, they’re not old Jewish laws. They were given to all the House of Israel.

Those who forsook the law were said to have “cast off the yoke.”

Law = commandments

We have an example in the BofM of a people, living the “Law of Moses” who had this to say about it:
I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. For behold, they are blessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual; and if they hold out faithful to the end they are received into heaven ~ Mosiah 2:41

***note that the Nephite observance and interpretation of the law may have been more wholesome and pure than what was practiced and taught in Jerusalem at the time (because we know they were destroyed and scattered)

We should probably take Jesus at his word and “learn from” Him - He observed the law. He gave the law.

Problem is, we might not have sufficient knowledge to allow us to do that at this time. A restoration would have to take place. But that is exactly what the BofM and Isaiah describe: once the fullness of the Gentiles is “come in” there will be a restoration of the House of Israel, starting with a “remnant of Jacob.” I have a feeling that this is a topic that will only tend to grow and become of more interest until that takes place. Praise be to God.

The hearts of the children will turn to the fathers
JS and the BoM makes clear that Torah and Law of Moses are two different things https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu7_0J2 ... n&index=26

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Pazooka
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Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by Pazooka »

SJR3t2 wrote: January 25th, 2023, 2:41 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 24th, 2023, 11:00 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:45 pm Not a challenging question, I"m more curious - What do you believe Jesus meant when He said in Matt 11: "29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
I guess the question might better be posed as do you see that a future promise rather than one that can be applied now? Feel free to explain your views on this scripture.
First of all, they’re not old Jewish laws. They were given to all the House of Israel.

Those who forsook the law were said to have “cast off the yoke.”

Law = commandments

We have an example in the BofM of a people, living the “Law of Moses” who had this to say about it:
I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. For behold, they are blessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual; and if they hold out faithful to the end they are received into heaven ~ Mosiah 2:41

***note that the Nephite observance and interpretation of the law may have been more wholesome and pure than what was practiced and taught in Jerusalem at the time (because we know they were destroyed and scattered)

We should probably take Jesus at his word and “learn from” Him - He observed the law. He gave the law.

Problem is, we might not have sufficient knowledge to allow us to do that at this time. A restoration would have to take place. But that is exactly what the BofM and Isaiah describe: once the fullness of the Gentiles is “come in” there will be a restoration of the House of Israel, starting with a “remnant of Jacob.” I have a feeling that this is a topic that will only tend to grow and become of more interest until that takes place. Praise be to God.

The hearts of the children will turn to the fathers
JS and the BoM makes clear that Torah and Law of Moses are two different things https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu7_0J2 ... n&index=26
There were: covenant codes, holiness codes and Deuteronomic codes, etc.”The law” and the “Law of Moses” are terms that get thrown around fast and loose even in the BofM - just like the word “Jew.”

Valo
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Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by Valo »

John Tavner wrote: January 25th, 2023, 12:35 pm
Valo wrote: January 25th, 2023, 11:57 am
John Tavner wrote: January 25th, 2023, 11:20 am
Valo wrote: January 25th, 2023, 10:43 am

No. Keep studying. Lot's of good information in this post.

...
Are you saying it is a change in perspective? because you literally say it is mourning and suffering. I'm happy to listen if you want to explain more clearly so I can understand exactly what you are saying. I wouldn't have asked the question otherwise. To understand where I'm coming from, The gospel/ THe message Christ gives ought to be simple because I am to come to Him as a little child. So If I as a little child can't understand it then I ask more questions. If questions aren't answered, then it makes me think it is more complicated. So help me understand what your view is on this, and if you so desire, please be like "Nephi" enjoying speaking in plainness regardless of whether my ears and eyes are blocked and blind.
Ask The Father in the name of the Son for humility and a contrite spirit and perhaps your eyes may be opened and your ears may be unplugged.

...
In regards to your answer? or the scripture? The advice is good and I often Ask God that my eyes be opened if I am blind and my ears be opened if I am deaf, thank you for the encouragement, God truly does open eyes and ears, that beings said, this isn't about what I believe, though I've done the aforementioned advice). I'm asking what you believe it means and seeking to understand what you mean when you say the words you say.
Again, did ye inquire of the Lord?

Ask the Father in the name of Yeshua that thy eyes may be opened and that thy ears may hear that which has been plainly spoken to thee.

...

Valo
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Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by Valo »

Imagine you are a really big guy, 300lbs+

You are wandering around the wilderness and come across a gate that you can see leads to a path. The gate has a sign that says "Heaven".

The man is excited because he has been wandering around the wilderness for all his life and wants to go to Heaven. But when he tries to enter the gate, he realizes that the gate is too narrow. He tries to widen the gate, and he tries all sorts of ways to make the gate wider, but all in vain. The gate is narrow and the path looks narrower still and there isn't room on the sides.

The man determines to lose weight so he can enter in by the gate.

Eventually the man is still overweight but narrow enough to enter the gate and begins to walk the path but the path is a bit more narrow than the gate and he can't go further. He is stuck.

Soon a figure comes walking from the more narrow section of the path and helps the man get unstuck and being perfect the man offers to assist the man in losing a few more inches so he can progress forward. The two work together and become great friends and the work needed is a pleasure and a joy.

Before long the man with the help of his friend and many others along the true path make it to Heaven.

...

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SJR3t2
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Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by SJR3t2 »

Pazooka wrote: January 25th, 2023, 2:47 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: January 25th, 2023, 2:41 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 24th, 2023, 11:00 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:45 pm Not a challenging question, I"m more curious - What do you believe Jesus meant when He said in Matt 11: "29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
I guess the question might better be posed as do you see that a future promise rather than one that can be applied now? Feel free to explain your views on this scripture.
First of all, they’re not old Jewish laws. They were given to all the House of Israel.

Those who forsook the law were said to have “cast off the yoke.”

Law = commandments

We have an example in the BofM of a people, living the “Law of Moses” who had this to say about it:
I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. For behold, they are blessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual; and if they hold out faithful to the end they are received into heaven ~ Mosiah 2:41

***note that the Nephite observance and interpretation of the law may have been more wholesome and pure than what was practiced and taught in Jerusalem at the time (because we know they were destroyed and scattered)

We should probably take Jesus at his word and “learn from” Him - He observed the law. He gave the law.

Problem is, we might not have sufficient knowledge to allow us to do that at this time. A restoration would have to take place. But that is exactly what the BofM and Isaiah describe: once the fullness of the Gentiles is “come in” there will be a restoration of the House of Israel, starting with a “remnant of Jacob.” I have a feeling that this is a topic that will only tend to grow and become of more interest until that takes place. Praise be to God.

The hearts of the children will turn to the fathers
JS and the BoM makes clear that Torah and Law of Moses are two different things https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu7_0J2 ... n&index=26
There were: covenant codes, holiness codes and Deuteronomic codes, etc.”The law” and the “Law of Moses” are terms that get thrown around fast and loose even in the BofM - just like the word “Jew.”
Look at the quote from JS and what the BoM says about the Law of Moses, it's different from Torah. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu7_0J2 ... n&index=26

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Pazooka
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Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by Pazooka »

SJR3t2 wrote: January 25th, 2023, 3:37 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 25th, 2023, 2:47 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: January 25th, 2023, 2:41 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 24th, 2023, 11:00 pm

First of all, they’re not old Jewish laws. They were given to all the House of Israel.

Those who forsook the law were said to have “cast off the yoke.”

Law = commandments

We have an example in the BofM of a people, living the “Law of Moses” who had this to say about it:
I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. For behold, they are blessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual; and if they hold out faithful to the end they are received into heaven ~ Mosiah 2:41

***note that the Nephite observance and interpretation of the law may have been more wholesome and pure than what was practiced and taught in Jerusalem at the time (because we know they were destroyed and scattered)

We should probably take Jesus at his word and “learn from” Him - He observed the law. He gave the law.

Problem is, we might not have sufficient knowledge to allow us to do that at this time. A restoration would have to take place. But that is exactly what the BofM and Isaiah describe: once the fullness of the Gentiles is “come in” there will be a restoration of the House of Israel, starting with a “remnant of Jacob.” I have a feeling that this is a topic that will only tend to grow and become of more interest until that takes place. Praise be to God.

The hearts of the children will turn to the fathers
JS and the BoM makes clear that Torah and Law of Moses are two different things https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu7_0J2 ... n&index=26
There were: covenant codes, holiness codes and Deuteronomic codes, etc.”The law” and the “Law of Moses” are terms that get thrown around fast and loose even in the BofM - just like the word “Jew.”
Look at the quote from JS and what the BoM says about the Law of Moses, it's different from Torah. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu7_0J2 ... n&index=26
Honestly, you’ll have to put the quote here if you want me to read it. I’m not going fishing

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Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by nightlight »

Pazooka wrote: January 25th, 2023, 12:43 pm
nightlight wrote: January 25th, 2023, 12:22 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 25th, 2023, 11:22 am
nightlight wrote: January 25th, 2023, 10:36 am 29 And now I say unto you that it was expedient that there should be a law given to the children of Israel, yea, even a very strict law; for they were a stiffnecked people, quick to do iniquity, and slow to remember the Lord their God;

30 Therefore there was a law given them, yea, a law of performances and of ordinances, a law which they were to observe strictly from day to day, to keep them in remembrance of God and their duty towards him.

---------------

What strict laws were given to Israel because of their slowness to hear God?
Look at that passage of scripture in context. The Lord sent Abinadi as a prophet with a message. Nowhere in the message, which Abinadi gives to us in what looks like word for word does the Lord actually talk about the Law of Moses that way. Rather, it would have been a tradition passed down to him from his fathers, Lehi and Nephi, who escaped Jerusalem at the height of Deuteronomic tyranny, who had turned the law into something worthy of ridicule.

And it came to pass that there was a man among them whose name was Abinadi; and he went forth among them, and began to prophesy, saying: Behold, thus saith the Lord, and thus hath he commanded me, saying, Go forth, and say unto this people, thus saith the Lord—Wo be unto this people, for I have seen their abominations, and their wickedness, and their whoredoms; and except they repent I will visit them in mine anger.
21 And except they repent and turn to the Lord their God, behold, I will deliver them into the hands of their enemies; yea, and they shall be brought into bondage; and they shall be afflicted by the hand of their enemies.
22 And it shall come to pass that they shall know that I am the Lord their God, and am a jealous God, visiting the iniquities of my people.
23 And it shall come to pass that except this people repent and turn unto the Lord their God, they shall be brought into bondage; and none shall deliver them, except it be the Lord the Almighty God.
24 Yea, and it shall come to pass that when they shall cry unto me I will be slow to hear their cries; yea, and I will suffer them that they be smitten by their enemies.
25 And except they repent in sackcloth and ashes, and cry mightily to the Lord their God, I will not hear their prayers, neither will I deliver them out of their afflictions; and thus saith the Lord, and thus hath he commanded me.
26 Now it came to pass that when Abinadi had spoken these words unto them they were wroth with him, and sought to take away his life; but the Lord delivered him out of their hands. ~ Mosiah 11


Did you see where the Lord made any commmentary on the law of Moses? Me neither. He is warning them because they are not obeying the law.
To say half of Abinadi message was true and half was just passed down false tradition is a silly game to play with the Book of Mormon.

I don't know how you can try to make yourself believe that Lehi&kids didn't understand the difference between the law and what the Jews added to the law.
They were learned in ALL the ways of the Jews.
You simply don't have the means to even come close to grasping their understanding of the all things Israel.

This is part of the message he was giving to them from God.
And it is a recurring theme in the Book of Mormon.

27 And now ye have said that salvation cometh by the law of Moses. I say unto you that it is expedient that ye should keep the law of Moses as yet; but I say unto you, that the time shall come when it shall no more be expedient to keep the law of Moses.

28 And moreover, I say unto you, that salvation doth not come by the law alone; and were it not for the atonement, which God himself shall make for the sins and iniquities of his people, that they must unavoidably perish, notwithstanding the law of Moses.

29 And now I say unto you that it was expedient that there should be a law given to the children of Israel, yea, even a very strict law; for they were a stiffnecked people, quick to do iniquity, and slow to remember the Lord their God;

30 Therefore there was a law given them, yea, a law of performances and of ordinances, a law which they were to observe strictly from day to day, to keep them in remembrance of God and their duty towards him.

31 But behold, I say unto you, that all these things were types of things to come.
----------------



2nd Nephi

24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.

25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.

26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.

27 Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was given. And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against him when the law ought to be done away.

28 And now behold, my people, ye are a stiffnecked people; wherefore, I have spoken plainly unto you, that ye cannot misunderstand. And the words which I have spoken shall stand as a testimony against you; for they are sufficient to teach any man the right way; for the right way is to believe in Christ and deny him not; for by denying him ye also deny the prophets and the law.

29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

30 And, inasmuch as it shall be expedient, ye must keep the performances and ordinances of God until the law shall be fulfilled which was given unto Moses.
----------------


To say the above is false is to say these men were false prophets. It's that simple.
I so called that one…knew you would resort to ridiculing at this stage of the argument. Ridicule then reiterate. Not really adding anything new to the discussion.

When is a prophet a prophet? When he is delivering the Lord’s message.

Why does the BofM matter if it is not all word for word quoting the Lord. Because it details the relationship between the Lord and His people, from their side, mostly.

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Pazooka
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Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by Pazooka »

nightlight wrote: January 25th, 2023, 9:31 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 25th, 2023, 12:43 pm
nightlight wrote: January 25th, 2023, 12:22 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 25th, 2023, 11:22 am

Look at that passage of scripture in context. The Lord sent Abinadi as a prophet with a message. Nowhere in the message, which Abinadi gives to us in what looks like word for word does the Lord actually talk about the Law of Moses that way. Rather, it would have been a tradition passed down to him from his fathers, Lehi and Nephi, who escaped Jerusalem at the height of Deuteronomic tyranny, who had turned the law into something worthy of ridicule.

And it came to pass that there was a man among them whose name was Abinadi; and he went forth among them, and began to prophesy, saying: Behold, thus saith the Lord, and thus hath he commanded me, saying, Go forth, and say unto this people, thus saith the Lord—Wo be unto this people, for I have seen their abominations, and their wickedness, and their whoredoms; and except they repent I will visit them in mine anger.
21 And except they repent and turn to the Lord their God, behold, I will deliver them into the hands of their enemies; yea, and they shall be brought into bondage; and they shall be afflicted by the hand of their enemies.
22 And it shall come to pass that they shall know that I am the Lord their God, and am a jealous God, visiting the iniquities of my people.
23 And it shall come to pass that except this people repent and turn unto the Lord their God, they shall be brought into bondage; and none shall deliver them, except it be the Lord the Almighty God.
24 Yea, and it shall come to pass that when they shall cry unto me I will be slow to hear their cries; yea, and I will suffer them that they be smitten by their enemies.
25 And except they repent in sackcloth and ashes, and cry mightily to the Lord their God, I will not hear their prayers, neither will I deliver them out of their afflictions; and thus saith the Lord, and thus hath he commanded me.
26 Now it came to pass that when Abinadi had spoken these words unto them they were wroth with him, and sought to take away his life; but the Lord delivered him out of their hands. ~ Mosiah 11


Did you see where the Lord made any commmentary on the law of Moses? Me neither. He is warning them because they are not obeying the law.
To say half of Abinadi message was true and half was just passed down false tradition is a silly game to play with the Book of Mormon.

I don't know how you can try to make yourself believe that Lehi&kids didn't understand the difference between the law and what the Jews added to the law.
They were learned in ALL the ways of the Jews.
You simply don't have the means to even come close to grasping their understanding of the all things Israel.

This is part of the message he was giving to them from God.
And it is a recurring theme in the Book of Mormon.

27 And now ye have said that salvation cometh by the law of Moses. I say unto you that it is expedient that ye should keep the law of Moses as yet; but I say unto you, that the time shall come when it shall no more be expedient to keep the law of Moses.

28 And moreover, I say unto you, that salvation doth not come by the law alone; and were it not for the atonement, which God himself shall make for the sins and iniquities of his people, that they must unavoidably perish, notwithstanding the law of Moses.

29 And now I say unto you that it was expedient that there should be a law given to the children of Israel, yea, even a very strict law; for they were a stiffnecked people, quick to do iniquity, and slow to remember the Lord their God;

30 Therefore there was a law given them, yea, a law of performances and of ordinances, a law which they were to observe strictly from day to day, to keep them in remembrance of God and their duty towards him.

31 But behold, I say unto you, that all these things were types of things to come.
----------------



2nd Nephi

24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.

25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.

26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.

27 Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was given. And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against him when the law ought to be done away.

28 And now behold, my people, ye are a stiffnecked people; wherefore, I have spoken plainly unto you, that ye cannot misunderstand. And the words which I have spoken shall stand as a testimony against you; for they are sufficient to teach any man the right way; for the right way is to believe in Christ and deny him not; for by denying him ye also deny the prophets and the law.

29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

30 And, inasmuch as it shall be expedient, ye must keep the performances and ordinances of God until the law shall be fulfilled which was given unto Moses.
----------------


To say the above is false is to say these men were false prophets. It's that simple.
I so called that one…knew you would resort to ridiculing at this stage of the argument. Ridicule then reiterate. Not really adding anything new to the discussion.

When is a prophet a prophet? When he is delivering the Lord’s message.

Why does the BofM matter if it is not all word for word quoting the Lord. Because it details the relationship between the Lord and His people, from their side, mostly.
:)

John Tavner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3355

Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by John Tavner »

Valo wrote: January 25th, 2023, 3:07 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 25th, 2023, 12:35 pm
Valo wrote: January 25th, 2023, 11:57 am
John Tavner wrote: January 25th, 2023, 11:20 am

Are you saying it is a change in perspective? because you literally say it is mourning and suffering. I'm happy to listen if you want to explain more clearly so I can understand exactly what you are saying. I wouldn't have asked the question otherwise. To understand where I'm coming from, The gospel/ THe message Christ gives ought to be simple because I am to come to Him as a little child. So If I as a little child can't understand it then I ask more questions. If questions aren't answered, then it makes me think it is more complicated. So help me understand what your view is on this, and if you so desire, please be like "Nephi" enjoying speaking in plainness regardless of whether my ears and eyes are blocked and blind.
Ask The Father in the name of the Son for humility and a contrite spirit and perhaps your eyes may be opened and your ears may be unplugged.

...
In regards to your answer? or the scripture? The advice is good and I often Ask God that my eyes be opened if I am blind and my ears be opened if I am deaf, thank you for the encouragement, God truly does open eyes and ears, that beings said, this isn't about what I believe, though I've done the aforementioned advice). I'm asking what you believe it means and seeking to understand what you mean when you say the words you say.
Again, did ye inquire of the Lord?

Ask the Father in the name of Yeshua that thy eyes may be opened and that thy ears may hear that which has been plainly spoken to thee.

...
Inquired regarding what? The scripture? Yes. To your answer? God said if I really want to know, to ask you. So, I'm asking. Have pity on what you might think is a blind and deaf man rather than send me off to search, stumbling in the dark.

John Tavner
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Posts: 3355

Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by John Tavner »

Valo wrote: January 25th, 2023, 3:36 pm Imagine you are a really big guy, 300lbs+

You are wandering around the wilderness and come across a gate that you can see leads to a path. The gate has a sign that says "Heaven".

The man is excited because he has been wandering around the wilderness for all his life and wants to go to Heaven. But when he tries to enter the gate, he realizes that the gate is too narrow. He tries to widen the gate, and he tries all sorts of ways to make the gate wider, but all in vain. The gate is narrow and the path looks narrower still and there isn't room on the sides.

The man determines to lose weight so he can enter in by the gate.

Eventually the man is still overweight but narrow enough to enter the gate and begins to walk the path but the path is a bit more narrow than the gate and he can't go further. He is stuck.

Soon a figure comes walking from the more narrow section of the path and helps the man get unstuck and being perfect the man offers to assist the man in losing a few more inches so he can progress forward. The two work together and become great friends and the work needed is a pleasure and a joy.

Before long the man with the help of his friend and many others along the true path make it to Heaven.

...
Ok, so I thikn I might get this analogy - the gate is a metaphor for baptism, so we have to work to be baptized, but after we are baptized, we've done all we can do adn then have to wait for Jesus to baptize us in fire and the HOly Ghost and it allows us to move forward. And the figure is representative of the Holy Spirit. So you believe to be baptized we must do certain "work:"? Then, we wait for the Holy Spirit? to come and help us "work" a bit more and it helps us continue to work, and we find we enjoy working with Holy Spirit? So you believe the "yoke" of working with the SPirit is easy? what is the burden and how is it made light or are you saying because you work with the Spirit it is light? Can you give examples if this is the case?

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SJR3t2
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Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by SJR3t2 »

Pazooka wrote: January 25th, 2023, 4:03 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: January 25th, 2023, 3:37 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 25th, 2023, 2:47 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: January 25th, 2023, 2:41 pm

JS and the BoM makes clear that Torah and Law of Moses are two different things https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu7_0J2 ... n&index=26
There were: covenant codes, holiness codes and Deuteronomic codes, etc.”The law” and the “Law of Moses” are terms that get thrown around fast and loose even in the BofM - just like the word “Jew.”
Look at the quote from JS and what the BoM says about the Law of Moses, it's different from Torah. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu7_0J2 ... n&index=26
Honestly, you’ll have to put the quote here if you want me to read it. I’m not going fishing
Honestly it's one quote from JS and many quotes from the BoM. I'm not asking you to fish for it, but I'm not copying and pasting everything from the recording here.

Valo
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Posts: 522

Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by Valo »

John Tavner wrote: January 26th, 2023, 5:32 pm
Valo wrote: January 25th, 2023, 3:36 pm Imagine you are a really big guy, 300lbs+

You are wandering around the wilderness and come across a gate that you can see leads to a path. The gate has a sign that says "Heaven".

The man is excited because he has been wandering around the wilderness for all his life and wants to go to Heaven. But when he tries to enter the gate, he realizes that the gate is too narrow. He tries to widen the gate, and he tries all sorts of ways to make the gate wider, but all in vain. The gate is narrow and the path looks narrower still and there isn't room on the sides.

The man determines to lose weight so he can enter in by the gate.

Eventually the man is still overweight but narrow enough to enter the gate and begins to walk the path but the path is a bit more narrow than the gate and he can't go further. He is stuck.

Soon a figure comes walking from the more narrow section of the path and helps the man get unstuck and being perfect the man offers to assist the man in losing a few more inches so he can progress forward. The two work together and become great friends and the work needed is a pleasure and a joy.

Before long the man with the help of his friend and many others along the true path make it to Heaven.

...
Ok, so I thikn I might get this analogy - the gate is a metaphor for baptism, so we have to work to be baptized, but after we are baptized, we've done all we can do adn then have to wait for Jesus to baptize us in fire and the HOly Ghost and it allows us to move forward. And the figure is representative of the Holy Spirit. So you believe to be baptized we must do certain "work:"? Then, we wait for the Holy Spirit? to come and help us "work" a bit more and it helps us continue to work, and we find we enjoy working with Holy Spirit? So you believe the "yoke" of working with the SPirit is easy? what is the burden and how is it made light or are you saying because you work with the Spirit it is light? Can you give examples if this is the case?
If your faith in God is lacking, just saying not attacking, then perhaps try this as it might be easier for thee...camels and eye of the needle and all...to ask ChatGPT.

a...o

John Tavner
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Posts: 3355

Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by John Tavner »

Valo wrote: January 26th, 2023, 9:22 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 26th, 2023, 5:32 pm
Valo wrote: January 25th, 2023, 3:36 pm Imagine you are a really big guy, 300lbs+

You are wandering around the wilderness and come across a gate that you can see leads to a path. The gate has a sign that says "Heaven".

The man is excited because he has been wandering around the wilderness for all his life and wants to go to Heaven. But when he tries to enter the gate, he realizes that the gate is too narrow. He tries to widen the gate, and he tries all sorts of ways to make the gate wider, but all in vain. The gate is narrow and the path looks narrower still and there isn't room on the sides.

The man determines to lose weight so he can enter in by the gate.

Eventually the man is still overweight but narrow enough to enter the gate and begins to walk the path but the path is a bit more narrow than the gate and he can't go further. He is stuck.

Soon a figure comes walking from the more narrow section of the path and helps the man get unstuck and being perfect the man offers to assist the man in losing a few more inches so he can progress forward. The two work together and become great friends and the work needed is a pleasure and a joy.

Before long the man with the help of his friend and many others along the true path make it to Heaven.

...
Ok, so I thikn I might get this analogy - the gate is a metaphor for baptism, so we have to work to be baptized, but after we are baptized, we've done all we can do adn then have to wait for Jesus to baptize us in fire and the HOly Ghost and it allows us to move forward. And the figure is representative of the Holy Spirit. So you believe to be baptized we must do certain "work:"? Then, we wait for the Holy Spirit? to come and help us "work" a bit more and it helps us continue to work, and we find we enjoy working with Holy Spirit? So you believe the "yoke" of working with the SPirit is easy? what is the burden and how is it made light or are you saying because you work with the Spirit it is light? Can you give examples if this is the case?
If your faith in God is lacking, just saying not attacking, then perhaps try this as it might be easier for thee...camels and eye of the needle and all...to ask ChatGPT.

a...o
Cool Rhymes. in modern parlance, I'm asking questions to understand other's points of view, to understand what others believe - you can make make whatever assumptions you wish with that information. I do not think the ChatGPT will let me know what you are thinking, as it is not you.

Valo
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Posts: 522

Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by Valo »

John Tavner wrote: January 26th, 2023, 5:28 pm
Valo wrote: January 25th, 2023, 3:07 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 25th, 2023, 12:35 pm
Valo wrote: January 25th, 2023, 11:57 am

Ask The Father in the name of the Son for humility and a contrite spirit and perhaps your eyes may be opened and your ears may be unplugged.

...
In regards to your answer? or the scripture? The advice is good and I often Ask God that my eyes be opened if I am blind and my ears be opened if I am deaf, thank you for the encouragement, God truly does open eyes and ears, that beings said, this isn't about what I believe, though I've done the aforementioned advice). I'm asking what you believe it means and seeking to understand what you mean when you say the words you say.
Again, did ye inquire of the Lord?

Ask the Father in the name of Yeshua that thy eyes may be opened and that thy ears may hear that which has been plainly spoken to thee.

...
Inquired regarding what? The scripture? Yes. To your answer? God said if I really want to know, to ask you. So, I'm asking. Have pity on what you might think is a blind and deaf man rather than send me off to search, stumbling in the dark.
viewtopic.php?p=1084618#p1084618
Michael Sherwin wrote: November 27th, 2020, 6:08 pm 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.


We need to look at Mark to know why.

4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.


Ah, the famous Mormon conversion, be converted to our church and be saved! No, that is not really a thing. That is just manmade mumbo jumbo. Instead this is what God means by conversion.

19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

(I know many of you think that I do not know what I'm talking about. I just stumbled upon this as I was finishing up this post.

3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

The refreshing includes the resurrection. Our sins are blotted out when we are resurrected! Until then we are dead in our sins.)

Keeping the law of God makes an actual change in a person. No, no, no it is faith in Christ that changes us. Yes, because if we have faith in Christ we will keep his commandments, which includes the law because not one jot or one tiddle of the law will pass until all is accomplished. So conversion is mechanical in nature and is not a belief based action as it is possible to believe and not keep Christ commandments. And here lies the secret. It is also possible to believe and to keep Christ commandments and to still be one of the wicked. :shock:

This is so because those that are wicked will act wickedly unless they know the mystery of the kingdom of God. If the wicked know the mystery of the kingdom of God they can choose to keep the law and have their sins forgiven. Mystery number one. When is a person's sins forgiven? When a person is resurrected. They start over with a clean slate. Mystery number two. What is the mechanism by which a wicked person gets resurrected? By keeping the law because the following happens for them just the same as for a righteous person.

13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

It is purely a mechanical function. It is just as much made possible by the growth of the Christ Spirit in us as it is made possible by the Lord himself. The Lord only helps us.

41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.

We actually have to do the heavy lifting of living right. Helping us by resurrecting us is trivial for the Lord if we have done our part.

So, Jesus taught in parables to limit the number of the wicked that are resurrected. Because, if one does not live according to the law they can lose even that which they have.

25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

We have to grow the Christ Spirit in us (measured in talents, in the parable of the talents) or what we have can be taken away and we become like the tares.

2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Because they have no water (Christ Spirit/Holy Spirit) within them.

2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
...

John Tavner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3355

Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by John Tavner »

Valo wrote: January 27th, 2023, 7:05 am
John Tavner wrote: January 26th, 2023, 5:28 pm
Valo wrote: January 25th, 2023, 3:07 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 25th, 2023, 12:35 pm

In regards to your answer? or the scripture? The advice is good and I often Ask God that my eyes be opened if I am blind and my ears be opened if I am deaf, thank you for the encouragement, God truly does open eyes and ears, that beings said, this isn't about what I believe, though I've done the aforementioned advice). I'm asking what you believe it means and seeking to understand what you mean when you say the words you say.
Again, did ye inquire of the Lord?

Ask the Father in the name of Yeshua that thy eyes may be opened and that thy ears may hear that which has been plainly spoken to thee.

...
Inquired regarding what? The scripture? Yes. To your answer? God said if I really want to know, to ask you. So, I'm asking. Have pity on what you might think is a blind and deaf man rather than send me off to search, stumbling in the dark.
viewtopic.php?p=1084618#p1084618
Michael Sherwin wrote: November 27th, 2020, 6:08 pm 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.


We need to look at Mark to know why.

4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.


Ah, the famous Mormon conversion, be converted to our church and be saved! No, that is not really a thing. That is just manmade mumbo jumbo. Instead this is what God means by conversion.

19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

(I know many of you think that I do not know what I'm talking about. I just stumbled upon this as I was finishing up this post.

3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

The refreshing includes the resurrection. Our sins are blotted out when we are resurrected! Until then we are dead in our sins.)

Keeping the law of God makes an actual change in a person. No, no, no it is faith in Christ that changes us. Yes, because if we have faith in Christ we will keep his commandments, which includes the law because not one jot or one tiddle of the law will pass until all is accomplished. So conversion is mechanical in nature and is not a belief based action as it is possible to believe and not keep Christ commandments. And here lies the secret. It is also possible to believe and to keep Christ commandments and to still be one of the wicked. :shock:

This is so because those that are wicked will act wickedly unless they know the mystery of the kingdom of God. If the wicked know the mystery of the kingdom of God they can choose to keep the law and have their sins forgiven. Mystery number one. When is a person's sins forgiven? When a person is resurrected. They start over with a clean slate. Mystery number two. What is the mechanism by which a wicked person gets resurrected? By keeping the law because the following happens for them just the same as for a righteous person.

13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

It is purely a mechanical function. It is just as much made possible by the growth of the Christ Spirit in us as it is made possible by the Lord himself. The Lord only helps us.

41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.

We actually have to do the heavy lifting of living right. Helping us by resurrecting us is trivial for the Lord if we have done our part.

So, Jesus taught in parables to limit the number of the wicked that are resurrected. Because, if one does not live according to the law they can lose even that which they have.

25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

We have to grow the Christ Spirit in us (measured in talents, in the parable of the talents) or what we have can be taken away and we become like the tares.

2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Because they have no water (Christ Spirit/Holy Spirit) within them.

2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
...
Ok that I feel like was more clear, but it still doesn't clarify how or what is the burden that becomes light - or why it is easy - unless you are saying by taking His yoke upon us, we are forgiven = easy. I understand (iI think that you believe) the Yoke is the law- I won't say more because I don't want to put words in your mouth, but His burden, what is it? and What makes it light? I'm curious as to what you believe the law is. What is the law according to your beliefs?

Valo
captain of 100
Posts: 522

Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by Valo »

John Tavner wrote: January 27th, 2023, 7:36 am
Valo wrote: January 27th, 2023, 7:05 am
John Tavner wrote: January 26th, 2023, 5:28 pm
Valo wrote: January 25th, 2023, 3:07 pm

Again, did ye inquire of the Lord?

Ask the Father in the name of Yeshua that thy eyes may be opened and that thy ears may hear that which has been plainly spoken to thee.

...
Inquired regarding what? The scripture? Yes. To your answer? God said if I really want to know, to ask you. So, I'm asking. Have pity on what you might think is a blind and deaf man rather than send me off to search, stumbling in the dark.
viewtopic.php?p=1084618#p1084618
Michael Sherwin wrote: November 27th, 2020, 6:08 pm 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.


We need to look at Mark to know why.

4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.


Ah, the famous Mormon conversion, be converted to our church and be saved! No, that is not really a thing. That is just manmade mumbo jumbo. Instead this is what God means by conversion.

19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

(I know many of you think that I do not know what I'm talking about. I just stumbled upon this as I was finishing up this post.

3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

The refreshing includes the resurrection. Our sins are blotted out when we are resurrected! Until then we are dead in our sins.)

Keeping the law of God makes an actual change in a person. No, no, no it is faith in Christ that changes us. Yes, because if we have faith in Christ we will keep his commandments, which includes the law because not one jot or one tiddle of the law will pass until all is accomplished. So conversion is mechanical in nature and is not a belief based action as it is possible to believe and not keep Christ commandments. And here lies the secret. It is also possible to believe and to keep Christ commandments and to still be one of the wicked. :shock:

This is so because those that are wicked will act wickedly unless they know the mystery of the kingdom of God. If the wicked know the mystery of the kingdom of God they can choose to keep the law and have their sins forgiven. Mystery number one. When is a person's sins forgiven? When a person is resurrected. They start over with a clean slate. Mystery number two. What is the mechanism by which a wicked person gets resurrected? By keeping the law because the following happens for them just the same as for a righteous person.

13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

It is purely a mechanical function. It is just as much made possible by the growth of the Christ Spirit in us as it is made possible by the Lord himself. The Lord only helps us.

41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.

We actually have to do the heavy lifting of living right. Helping us by resurrecting us is trivial for the Lord if we have done our part.

So, Jesus taught in parables to limit the number of the wicked that are resurrected. Because, if one does not live according to the law they can lose even that which they have.

25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

We have to grow the Christ Spirit in us (measured in talents, in the parable of the talents) or what we have can be taken away and we become like the tares.

2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Because they have no water (Christ Spirit/Holy Spirit) within them.

2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
...
Ok that I feel like was more clear, but it still doesn't clarify how or what is the burden that becomes light - or why it is easy - unless you are saying by taking His yoke upon us, we are forgiven = easy. I understand (iI think that you believe) the Yoke is the law- I won't say more because I don't want to put words in your mouth, but His burden, what is it? and What makes it light? I'm curious as to what you believe the law is. What is the law according to your beliefs?
3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 Blessed are those who mourn, For they shall be comforted. 5 Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth. 6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, For they shall be filled. 7 Blessed are the merciful, For they shall obtain mercy. 8 Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God. 9 Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God. 10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 "Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

...

Bronco73idi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2097

Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by Bronco73idi »

John Tavner wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:45 pm Not a challenging question, I"m more curious - What do you believe Jesus meant when He said in Matt 11: "29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
I guess the question might better be posed as do you see that a future promise rather than one that can be applied now? Feel free to explain your views on this scripture.
On one hand everyone’s excuse, “I don’t know” about sin or “my circumstances are different”. So we have to go back to Moses 10 commandments.

To a celestial people the law is fulfilled in the sacrifice of the lamb of God, his only begotten son. Thus the law / word is in each and everyone.

To the spiritually blind and deaf only a portion of the law is fulfilled, like the sacrifices.

John Tavner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3355

Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by John Tavner »

Valo wrote: January 27th, 2023, 8:39 am
John Tavner wrote: January 27th, 2023, 7:36 am
Valo wrote: January 27th, 2023, 7:05 am
John Tavner wrote: January 26th, 2023, 5:28 pm

Inquired regarding what? The scripture? Yes. To your answer? God said if I really want to know, to ask you. So, I'm asking. Have pity on what you might think is a blind and deaf man rather than send me off to search, stumbling in the dark.
viewtopic.php?p=1084618#p1084618
Michael Sherwin wrote: November 27th, 2020, 6:08 pm 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.


We need to look at Mark to know why.

4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.


Ah, the famous Mormon conversion, be converted to our church and be saved! No, that is not really a thing. That is just manmade mumbo jumbo. Instead this is what God means by conversion.

19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

(I know many of you think that I do not know what I'm talking about. I just stumbled upon this as I was finishing up this post.

3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

The refreshing includes the resurrection. Our sins are blotted out when we are resurrected! Until then we are dead in our sins.)

Keeping the law of God makes an actual change in a person. No, no, no it is faith in Christ that changes us. Yes, because if we have faith in Christ we will keep his commandments, which includes the law because not one jot or one tiddle of the law will pass until all is accomplished. So conversion is mechanical in nature and is not a belief based action as it is possible to believe and not keep Christ commandments. And here lies the secret. It is also possible to believe and to keep Christ commandments and to still be one of the wicked. :shock:

This is so because those that are wicked will act wickedly unless they know the mystery of the kingdom of God. If the wicked know the mystery of the kingdom of God they can choose to keep the law and have their sins forgiven. Mystery number one. When is a person's sins forgiven? When a person is resurrected. They start over with a clean slate. Mystery number two. What is the mechanism by which a wicked person gets resurrected? By keeping the law because the following happens for them just the same as for a righteous person.

13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

It is purely a mechanical function. It is just as much made possible by the growth of the Christ Spirit in us as it is made possible by the Lord himself. The Lord only helps us.

41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.

We actually have to do the heavy lifting of living right. Helping us by resurrecting us is trivial for the Lord if we have done our part.

So, Jesus taught in parables to limit the number of the wicked that are resurrected. Because, if one does not live according to the law they can lose even that which they have.

25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

We have to grow the Christ Spirit in us (measured in talents, in the parable of the talents) or what we have can be taken away and we become like the tares.

2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Because they have no water (Christ Spirit/Holy Spirit) within them.

2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
...
Ok that I feel like was more clear, but it still doesn't clarify how or what is the burden that becomes light - or why it is easy - unless you are saying by taking His yoke upon us, we are forgiven = easy. I understand (iI think that you believe) the Yoke is the law- I won't say more because I don't want to put words in your mouth, but His burden, what is it? and What makes it light? I'm curious as to what you believe the law is. What is the law according to your beliefs?
3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 Blessed are those who mourn, For they shall be comforted. 5 Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth. 6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, For they shall be filled. 7 Blessed are the merciful, For they shall obtain mercy. 8 Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God. 9 Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God. 10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 "Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

...
Good verses. So you believe those verses are the law? What does it mean to be merciful? What about Mourning etc... How does one obtain a pure heart? Is it something you do or something you receive? So you believe the burden is that they mourn and are meek etc... but they receive in turn?

John Tavner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3355

Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by John Tavner »

Bronco73idi wrote: January 27th, 2023, 8:56 am
John Tavner wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:45 pm Not a challenging question, I"m more curious - What do you believe Jesus meant when He said in Matt 11: "29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
I guess the question might better be posed as do you see that a future promise rather than one that can be applied now? Feel free to explain your views on this scripture.
On one hand everyone’s excuse, “I don’t know” about sin or “my circumstances are different”. So we have to go back to Moses 10 commandments.

To a celestial people the law is fulfilled in the sacrifice of the lamb of God, his only begotten son. Thus the law / word is in each and everyone.

To the spiritually blind and deaf only a portion of the law is fulfilled, like the sacrifices.
What do you mean by the law/word is in each and everyone?

Can you expound/ give an example of what you believe on your last sentence? Waht do you mean by "only a portion of hte law is fulfilled to the spiritually blind?

What do you mean by the law?

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