FLDS community = Hell on earth

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Sarah
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Re: FLDS community = Hell on earth

Post by Sarah »

tmac wrote: January 25th, 2023, 7:59 am I am interested to hear exactly what it is you take away from the story of Deborah.

But to put her story in contest, the Lord had commanded the House of Israel to kill all the Canaanites and Philistines, and to stay completely separate from them. But instead of obeying God’ commandments, they did not destroy them, and gave way to “romantic” mating, and started inter-marrying with them, contrary to God’s commandments and Divine order.

Sure, Deborah was a great woman, and played a role in the whole equation, but the bottom line is, without God’s power her gender would have made little difference. There are plenty of female heros in the scriptures. But exactly what is it that you take away from that story — especially as it relates to the subject of plural marriage?
The account says she was a judge in Israel. So referencing her story was in response to Bronco's comment about women these days not accepting that men have more right to judge.

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tmac
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Re: FLDS community = Hell on earth

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I would say it is God who should make that determination. Clearly, we’ve seen it both ways. It should be up to God to choose who will lead and judge His people.

In the lead-up to Deborah, it is fairly clear that the Israelite women were just as culpable as the men in their romantic mating and intermarrying with the Canaanites and Philistines.

But, It is was just yesterday that you were advocating for God to be the judge. Now you’re cherry-picking Deborah’s story to advocate for women to do the judging, like Deborah — as if she could do anything without God’s power.

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Sarah
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Re: FLDS community = Hell on earth

Post by Sarah »

tmac wrote: January 25th, 2023, 8:27 am I would say it is God who should make that determination. Clearly, we’ve seen it both ways. It should be up to God to choose who will lead and judge His people.

In the lead-up to Deborah, it is fairly clear that the Israelite women were just as culpable as the men in their romantic mating and intermarrying with the Canaanites and Philistines.

But, It is was just yesterday that you were advocating for God to be the judge. Now you’re cherry-picking Deborah’s story to advocate for women to do the judging, like Deborah — as if she could do anything without God’s power.
The only thing I am advocating with my comment is for Bronco to not be dead set in thinking it is only men who can judge among the covenant people. I agree that God can make that determination. But he also allows his people the freedom to exercise their agency and learn from their mistakes. Marrying outside the covenant is a different crime than allowing your child to pick a marriage partner. God told Adam to leave Father and Mother and cleave unto his wife, not bring the wife under their rule.

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tmac
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Re: FLDS community = Hell on earth

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I don’t see anyone, including Bronco, advocating for that (a married couple operating under either parents’ “rule”). Where’s it coming from? Aren’t you kind of chasing ghosts with that assertion?

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Sarah
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Re: FLDS community = Hell on earth

Post by Sarah »

tmac wrote: January 25th, 2023, 8:47 am I don’t see anyone, including Bronco, advocating for that (a married couple operating under either parents’ “rule”). Where’s it coming from? Aren’t you kind of chasing ghosts with that assertion?
Bronco did not make that point, but you did, when comparing in your comment that marrying outside the covenant was like allowing freedom in choosing a marriage partner. I just thought that bringing up God's command to Adam supports the idea that parents should not feel entitled to choose the spouse of their child.

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Wolfwoman
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Re: FLDS community = Hell on earth

Post by Wolfwoman »

tmac wrote: January 25th, 2023, 7:05 am . . . As this thread devolves into the same old, highly predictable, endless, ad nauseum debate about plural marriage. . . .

If there is anything eternal and everlasting on LDSFF, it is that.
Which was not my intent in starting the discussion. But these things always go off on tangents.

My main point was that the FLDS is a pretty terrible place to be in. And if you were born in the LDS church from generations of Latter Day Saints, you could have easily been born in the FLDS sect if some of your ancestors had made the choice to go that way.

Not sure if anyone actually read the article or watched the videos interviewing Elizabeth Roundy. But here are some of the things mentioned.

1. Can’t wear the color red because it’s sacrilegious due to Jesus’ returning clothed in red.

2. Children couldn’t play with toys or have bikes because it was more important for them to learn to work.

3. Children separated from parents for no good reason.

4. Children as young as 8 being excommunicated.

5. Mother of 5 sent away from her young children to repent because she had a miscarriage and required surgery. She was separated from her children for FIVE YEARS. And it would have been longer or forever if she hadn’t decided to go back and get her kids.

6. Women 24 and 25 years old taken to meet their intended husbands for the first time and expected to get married to them right then and there. They had never even gone on a date with any boys, let alone these men. They had never so much as held hands with a boy.

Not to mention all of the other stuff that we have heard about Warren Jeffs and what he did.

I sincerely hope people commenting on here are not okay with all of this. But I guess some of you think arranged marriage is wonderful.

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tmac
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Re: FLDS community = Hell on earth

Post by tmac »

Sarah wrote: January 25th, 2023, 9:19 am
tmac wrote: January 25th, 2023, 8:47 am I don’t see anyone, including Bronco, advocating for that (a married couple operating under either parents’ “rule”). Where’s it coming from? Aren’t you kind of chasing ghosts with that assertion?
Bronco did not make that point, but you did, when comparing in your comment that marrying outside the covenant was like allowing freedom in choosing a marriage partner. I just thought that bringing up God's command to Adam supports the idea that parents should not feel entitled to choose the spouse of their child.
It doesn’t follow. Who chose Adam’s spouse?

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Sarah
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Re: FLDS community = Hell on earth

Post by Sarah »

tmac wrote: January 25th, 2023, 9:27 am
Sarah wrote: January 25th, 2023, 9:19 am
tmac wrote: January 25th, 2023, 8:47 am I don’t see anyone, including Bronco, advocating for that (a married couple operating under either parents’ “rule”). Where’s it coming from? Aren’t you kind of chasing ghosts with that assertion?
Bronco did not make that point, but you did, when comparing in your comment that marrying outside the covenant was like allowing freedom in choosing a marriage partner. I just thought that bringing up God's command to Adam supports the idea that parents should not feel entitled to choose the spouse of their child.
It doesn’t follow. Who chose Adam’s spouse?
Again, like Severus who was comparing apples to oranges, you are comparing apples to oranges. Just because God does something, doesn't mean mortals have the same charge. Where is the law from God that says that all parents are to chose the spouse of their child? What do you think God prefers, to inspire the two people getting married to choose each other, or tell the parents who their child should marry? Both routes are acceptable, but which is better?

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tmac
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Re: FLDS community = Hell on earth

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Wolfwoman wrote: January 25th, 2023, 9:24 am
tmac wrote: January 25th, 2023, 7:05 am . . . As this thread devolves into the same old, highly predictable, endless, ad nauseum debate about plural marriage. . . .

If there is anything eternal and everlasting on LDSFF, it is that.
Which was not my intent in starting the discussion. But these things always go off on tangents.

My main point was that the FLDS is a pretty terrible place to be in. And if you were born in the LDS church from generations of Latter Day Saints, you could have easily been born in the FLDS sect if some of your ancestors had made the choice to go that way.

Not sure if anyone actually read the article or watched the videos interviewing Elizabeth Roundy. But here are some of the things mentioned.

1. Can’t wear the color red because it’s sacrilegious due to Jesus’ returning clothed in red.

2. Children couldn’t play with toys or have bikes because it was more important for them to learn to work.

3. Children separated from parents for no good reason.

4. Children as young as 8 being excommunicated.

5. Mother of 5 sent away from her young children to repent because she had a miscarriage and required surgery. She was separated from her children for FIVE YEARS. And it would have been longer or forever if she hadn’t decided to go back and get her kids.

6. Women 24 and 25 years old taken to meet their intended husbands for the first time and expected to get married to them right then and there. They had never even gone on a date with any boys, let alone these men. They had never so much as held hands with a boy.

Not to mention all of the other stuff that we have heard about Warren Jeffs and what he did.

I sincerely hope people commenting on here are not okay with all of this. But I guess some of you think arranged marriage is wonderful.
It should be pretty clear that I think the FLDS situation is a huge mess at this point. But I also included Elizabeth’s quote about growing up in a great, loving family, with loving parents and siblings.

No doubt there are and have been abuses in the FLDS culture, just as there have been in the LDS culture. I grew up with a physically abusive father, and a manipulative, emotionally abusive mother — right in the LDS Church. Both held high callings.

But why is it that everything that happens involving any Fundamentalist(s) has to be turned into a big drama fest?

What is the difference between a ban on the color Red, versus insistence that all men/boys wear White shirts? What is the substantive difference?

As for arranged marriage, that’s something we’ll all have to sort out with God at some point. But, I agree, He always gives us a choice. Regardless of what mortals in the equation may do, He isn’t going to force anyone. And, if you watch the whole video interview with ER, and pay attention to what she says, she makes it very clear that although she may have had a "placement" marriage, there was no force involved. Her father always made it clear that they were free to choose. And even when it happened, and Rulon Jeffs was seeking to make the match, ER and her sister said they wanted to go home and think and pray about it first, and they did. Although everyone else was thinking that they were going to get married that day, they declined to do that. They exercised their liberty/agency to go home and think and pray about it before deciding what to do. It s very clear that although they were encouraged, it was their choice.

In my case, though, I experienced plenty of force from my TBM LDS parents, including physical force. Unlike ER, I can’t say that I grew up in a loving family, where my parents loved, lived, and taught the gospel. They were too busy with their callings, and keeping up appearances.

And, as I think I have made abundantly clear, arranged marriage doesn’t happen among the FLDS either at this point. For AT LEAST 10 years.

Although ER's full story is a sad, tragic story, very, very little of the tragedy in the story actually has anything to do with plural marriage, and again, once again, just to be clear, she exercised full agency in her own marriage decision. There was no force involved. And the reality is, in the end, her own husband and father were both treated as bad or worse than she was, so I'm not seeing how she was any bigger victim just because she was a woman.

The real tragedy in the story stems from the whole brain-washed "follow the prophet" mentality, this is also very alive and well in the LDS church. The biggest difference is that Warren Jeffs and his henchmen are much bigger micro-managers -- and banished her husband and father as well -- but they also have far fewer followers to micro-manage. And, even despite the brain-washing, ER still always had full liberty and agency to make choices. The biggest travesties occurred when both ER and her husband (him first) completely abandoned their children, when they were banished and "went away to repent," at Jeffs' behest. There is no question, WJ is a madman. No one disputes that. But there was never an issue of lack of liberty or agency. No one forced ER to abandon her children. The problem was that over and over again, they chose to blindly follow their so-called prophet. There are hundreds and hundreds of similar stories. And in the vast, vast majority of them, plural marriage, per se, is not even the issue, and makes very little actual difference in the equation. But, because they were fundamentalists and plural marriage was part of the equation, instead of some other brand of religious extremism, etc., that automatically becomes the big issue and irresistible click bait in the Intermountain West.

For those who have spent some time around this, ER’s story and account are very old news, that sensationalistic MSM sources love to keep dredging up in an endless feedback loop to further perpetuate the negative biases regarding practitioners of plural marriage.
Last edited by tmac on January 27th, 2023, 8:28 am, edited 6 times in total.

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tmac
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Re: FLDS community = Hell on earth

Post by tmac »

Sarah wrote: January 25th, 2023, 9:37 am
tmac wrote: January 25th, 2023, 9:27 am
Sarah wrote: January 25th, 2023, 9:19 am
tmac wrote: January 25th, 2023, 8:47 am I don’t see anyone, including Bronco, advocating for that (a married couple operating under either parents’ “rule”). Where’s it coming from? Aren’t you kind of chasing ghosts with that assertion?
Bronco did not make that point, but you did, when comparing in your comment that marrying outside the covenant was like allowing freedom in choosing a marriage partner. I just thought that bringing up God's command to Adam supports the idea that parents should not feel entitled to choose the spouse of their child.
It doesn’t follow. Who chose Adam’s spouse?
Again, like Severus who was comparing apples to oranges, you are comparing apples to oranges. Just because God does something, doesn't mean mortals have the same charge. Where is the law from God that says that all parents are to chose the spouse of their child? What do you think God prefers, to inspire the two people getting married to choose each other, or tell the parents who their child should marry? Both routes are acceptable, but which is better?
I don’t believe there is any broad brush, one-size-fits-all formula.

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Sarah
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Re: FLDS community = Hell on earth

Post by Sarah »

tmac wrote: January 25th, 2023, 9:42 am
Sarah wrote: January 25th, 2023, 9:37 am
tmac wrote: January 25th, 2023, 9:27 am
Sarah wrote: January 25th, 2023, 9:19 am

Bronco did not make that point, but you did, when comparing in your comment that marrying outside the covenant was like allowing freedom in choosing a marriage partner. I just thought that bringing up God's command to Adam supports the idea that parents should not feel entitled to choose the spouse of their child.
It doesn’t follow. Who chose Adam’s spouse?
Again, like Severus who was comparing apples to oranges, you are comparing apples to oranges. Just because God does something, doesn't mean mortals have the same charge. Where is the law from God that says that all parents are to chose the spouse of their child? What do you think God prefers, to inspire the two people getting married to choose each other, or tell the parents who their child should marry? Both routes are acceptable, but which is better?
I don’t believe there is any broad brush, one-size-fits-all formula.
That's good to hear, and I also think that the Lord works with different cultural norms of different days, and inspiring the parents to pick the right spouse in ancient times was how he worked with people and their particular culture. Nowadays, the stories you hear are of each person receiving their own spiritual confirmation that they should or should not marry a person, which I think is the better and preferred option.

It is interesting that I'm having this conversation when last night I had a dream of my daughter with this particular boy who she's been friends with. They are both 18 and freshman at different schools, but were friends throughout high school. About a year or so ago I had a dream that they were married and I could feel the joy they both felt at being together. Last night's dream was again, endearing, and it makes me wonder....

As a parent, I have the right and privilege of giving counsel, of persuading, but never would I dream of telling my child who she should marry, or that it was her duty to blindly trust my counsel and not receive her own witness, and make that choice herself.

Lemarque
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Re: FLDS community = Hell on earth

Post by Lemarque »

Severus wrote: January 24th, 2023, 3:04 pm
I am all for romance, but it is the frosting on the cake, not the cake itself.
My kids just eat the frosting and throw the cake away.

To be clear, I'm talking about actual cake and frosting.

Bronco73idi
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Re: FLDS community = Hell on earth

Post by Bronco73idi »

Sarah wrote: January 25th, 2023, 7:26 am
Bronco73idi wrote: January 25th, 2023, 1:40 am
Sarah wrote: January 24th, 2023, 7:16 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:04 pm

I would love if a Stake President was so wise.

The idea you want to complain about a none celestial outcome shows where your thoughts are.
So you really think the Stake Presidents should make all those decisions right now. What would you do if your Stake President assigned you something you didn't like and you didn't trust his wisdom? Would you still go along with it?
Do you think it possible that children may not trust their parents to make that marriage decision for them?

What Celestial outcome are you saying that I'm complaining about?
Right now could never happen, they can’t teach that a woman isn’t judge the same as a man. They are drunken and not of wine.
Maybe men need to read the story of Deborah more often.
You can talk about Deborah and I will talk about Nebuchadnezzar. Both people that the lord had to use to fulfill his will.

Are they not both excellent stories?

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Sarah
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Re: FLDS community = Hell on earth

Post by Sarah »

Bronco73idi wrote: January 25th, 2023, 10:40 am
Sarah wrote: January 25th, 2023, 7:26 am
Bronco73idi wrote: January 25th, 2023, 1:40 am
Sarah wrote: January 24th, 2023, 7:16 pm

So you really think the Stake Presidents should make all those decisions right now. What would you do if your Stake President assigned you something you didn't like and you didn't trust his wisdom? Would you still go along with it?
Do you think it possible that children may not trust their parents to make that marriage decision for them?

What Celestial outcome are you saying that I'm complaining about?
Right now could never happen, they can’t teach that a woman isn’t judge the same as a man. They are drunken and not of wine.
Maybe men need to read the story of Deborah more often.
You can talk about Deborah and I will talk about Nebuchadnezzar. Both people that the lord had to use to fulfill his will.

Are they not both excellent stories?
Yes, both excellent stories :)

Severus
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Re: FLDS community = Hell on earth

Post by Severus »

Lemarque wrote: January 25th, 2023, 10:09 am
Severus wrote: January 24th, 2023, 3:04 pm
I am all for romance, but it is the frosting on the cake, not the cake itself.
My kids just eat the frosting and throw the cake away.

To be clear, I'm talking about actual cake and frosting.
Those are kids after my own heart. When I get a birthday cake, the frosting better be good cause it's the only part I like.

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Wolfwoman
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Re: FLDS community = Hell on earth

Post by Wolfwoman »

tmac wrote: January 25th, 2023, 9:40 am
Wolfwoman wrote: January 25th, 2023, 9:24 am
tmac wrote: January 25th, 2023, 7:05 am . . . As this thread devolves into the same old, highly predictable, endless, ad nauseum debate about plural marriage. . . .

If there is anything eternal and everlasting on LDSFF, it is that.
Which was not my intent in starting the discussion. But these things always go off on tangents.

My main point was that the FLDS is a pretty terrible place to be in. And if you were born in the LDS church from generations of Latter Day Saints, you could have easily been born in the FLDS sect if some of your ancestors had made the choice to go that way.

Not sure if anyone actually read the article or watched the videos interviewing Elizabeth Roundy. But here are some of the things mentioned.

1. Can’t wear the color red because it’s sacrilegious due to Jesus’ returning clothed in red.

2. Children couldn’t play with toys or have bikes because it was more important for them to learn to work.

3. Children separated from parents for no good reason.

4. Children as young as 8 being excommunicated.

5. Mother of 5 sent away from her young children to repent because she had a miscarriage and required surgery. She was separated from her children for FIVE YEARS. And it would have been longer or forever if she hadn’t decided to go back and get her kids.

6. Women 24 and 25 years old taken to meet their intended husbands for the first time and expected to get married to them right then and there. They had never even gone on a date with any boys, let alone these men. They had never so much as held hands with a boy.

Not to mention all of the other stuff that we have heard about Warren Jeffs and what he did.

I sincerely hope people commenting on here are not okay with all of this. But I guess some of you think arranged marriage is wonderful.
It should be pretty clear that I think the FLDS situation is a huge mess at this point. But I also included Elizabeth’s quote about growing up in a great, loving family, with loving parents and siblings.

No doubt there are and have been abuses in the FLDS culture, just as there have been in the LDS culture. I grew up with a physically abusive father, and a manipulative, emotionally abusive mother — right in the LDS Church. Both held high callings.

But why is it that everything that happens involving any Fundamentalist(s) has to be turned into a big drama fest?

What is the difference between a ban on the color Red, versus insistence that all men/boys wear White shirts? What is the difference?

As for arranged marriage, that’s something we’ll all have to sort out with God at some point. But, I agree, He always gives us a choice. Regardless of what mortals in the equation may do, He isn’t going to force anyone. In my case, though, I experienced plenty of force from my TBM LDS parents, including physical force. Unlike ER, I can’t say that I grew up in a loving family, where my parents loved, lived, and taught the gospel. They were too busy with their callings, and keeping up appearances.

And, as I think I have made abundantly clear, arranged marriage doesn’t happen among the FLDS either at this point. For AT LEAST 10 years.

For those who have spent some time around this, ER’s story and account are very old news, that sensationalistic MSM sources love to keep dredging up in an endless feedback cycle to further perpetuate the negative biases.
Are you for real? You don’t see a difference between banning red clothing and recommending or requiring white shirts when blessing the sacrament? I don’t know what wards you’ve attended in recent years, but where I am even 20 years ago you could wear a non-white shirt to church and it was not a big deal.

As for Elizabeth’s upbringing she did say in the interview that her father was excommunicated and no longer a member of the FLDS. She didn’t give the details of when they apparently started back there again. So it’s not surprising that she was raised in a loving home. She had a free thinking father who was a good person, and a good mother.

Why does it have to be such a big drama fest? Maybe because this is in the Unted States of America and we hope things would be better for people living here. If you don’t like the drama fest feel free to not participate in the discussion.
Last edited by Wolfwoman on January 25th, 2023, 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

Bronco73idi
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Re: FLDS community = Hell on earth

Post by Bronco73idi »

Sarah wrote: January 25th, 2023, 10:43 am
Bronco73idi wrote: January 25th, 2023, 10:40 am
Sarah wrote: January 25th, 2023, 7:26 am
Bronco73idi wrote: January 25th, 2023, 1:40 am

Right now could never happen, they can’t teach that a woman isn’t judge the same as a man. They are drunken and not of wine.
Maybe men need to read the story of Deborah more often.
You can talk about Deborah and I will talk about Nebuchadnezzar. Both people that the lord had to use to fulfill his will.

Are they not both excellent stories?
Yes, both excellent stories :)
What do they have in common? Both were people who were not given the priesthood. Ie both of them had to rebuke the children of Abraham.

Lehi led his children out of Nebuchadnezzar’s terror, not Sarah. Daniel was raised as a mighty prophet due to Neb’s terror and destruction of Jerusalem. The children of Abraham didn’t listen to the prophets like Ezekiel so the lord used good ole Neb to kill the children and make them repent.

Is it cold hearted that people were brutally murdered because of stubbornness?

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tmac
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Re: FLDS community = Hell on earth

Post by tmac »

Wolfwoman wrote: January 25th, 2023, 11:28 am
tmac wrote: January 25th, 2023, 9:40 am
Wolfwoman wrote: January 25th, 2023, 9:24 am
tmac wrote: January 25th, 2023, 7:05 am . . . As this thread devolves into the same old, highly predictable, endless, ad nauseum debate about plural marriage. . . .

If there is anything eternal and everlasting on LDSFF, it is that.
Which was not my intent in starting the discussion. But these things always go off on tangents.

My main point was that the FLDS is a pretty terrible place to be in. And if you were born in the LDS church from generations of Latter Day Saints, you could have easily been born in the FLDS sect if some of your ancestors had made the choice to go that way.

Not sure if anyone actually read the article or watched the videos interviewing Elizabeth Roundy. But here are some of the things mentioned.

1. Can’t wear the color red because it’s sacrilegious due to Jesus’ returning clothed in red.

2. Children couldn’t play with toys or have bikes because it was more important for them to learn to work.

3. Children separated from parents for no good reason.

4. Children as young as 8 being excommunicated.

5. Mother of 5 sent away from her young children to repent because she had a miscarriage and required surgery. She was separated from her children for FIVE YEARS. And it would have been longer or forever if she hadn’t decided to go back and get her kids.

6. Women 24 and 25 years old taken to meet their intended husbands for the first time and expected to get married to them right then and there. They had never even gone on a date with any boys, let alone these men. They had never so much as held hands with a boy.

Not to mention all of the other stuff that we have heard about Warren Jeffs and what he did.

I sincerely hope people commenting on here are not okay with all of this. But I guess some of you think arranged marriage is wonderful.
It should be pretty clear that I think the FLDS situation is a huge mess at this point. But I also included Elizabeth’s quote about growing up in a great, loving family, with loving parents and siblings.

No doubt there are and have been abuses in the FLDS culture, just as there have been in the LDS culture. I grew up with a physically abusive father, and a manipulative, emotionally abusive mother — right in the LDS Church. Both held high callings.

But why is it that everything that happens involving any Fundamentalist(s) has to be turned into a big drama fest?

What is the difference between a ban on the color Red, versus insistence that all men/boys wear White shirts? What is the difference?

As for arranged marriage, that’s something we’ll all have to sort out with God at some point. But, I agree, He always gives us a choice. Regardless of what mortals in the equation may do, He isn’t going to force anyone. In my case, though, I experienced plenty of force from my TBM LDS parents, including physical force. Unlike ER, I can’t say that I grew up in a loving family, where my parents loved, lived, and taught the gospel. They were too busy with their callings, and keeping up appearances.

And, as I think I have made abundantly clear, arranged marriage doesn’t happen among the FLDS either at this point. For AT LEAST 10 years.

For those who have spent some time around this, ER’s story and account are very old news, that sensationalistic MSM sources love to keep dredging up in an endless feedback cycle to further perpetuate the negative biases.
Are you for real? You don’t see a difference between banning red clothing and recommending or requiring white shirts when blessing the sacrament? I don’t know what wards you’ve attended in recent years, but where I am even 20 years ago you could wear a non-white shirt to church and it was not a big deal.

As for Elizabeth’s upbringing she did say in the interview that her father was excommunicated and no longer a member of the FLDS. She didn’t give the details of when they apparently started back there again. So it’s not surprising that she was raised in a loving home. She had a free thinking father who was a good person, and a good mother.

Why does it have to be such a big drama fest? Maybe because this is in the Unted States of America and we hope things would be better for people living here. If you don’t like the drama fest feel free to not participate in the discussion.
What I think doesn’t even really matter. I have paradigms and opinions just like you do, and we are both entitled to our respective positions.

But in this particular instance a 16 year-old girl apparently went to great lengths to exercise her liberty/agency, and frankly in this instance it is only her opinions that really matter. Her mother comes from a has-been perspective, having been scarred by some of her unfortunate experiences.

Although there may be some brain-washing, just as there is in the LDS Church, I’m not seeing any evidence of current force, so I don’t really see what there is to talk about here. ER’s revelations, sad as they may be, are at least 10 years behind the curve. Aside from the long-standing inherent biases, what makes this news-worthy?

Do you believe in freedom of religion in the U.S.? If I were a judge and someone brought this to me, I would say “She’s not quite “free, white and 21,” but almost — what do you want me to do about it”?

In a recent Utah Supreme Court case, the court ruled that in a custody dispute between a Fundamentalist man and his ex-wife, as a matter of religious liberty and fundamental parenting rights, the father was entitled to teach his children anything he wanted about fundamentalism, without any corresponding prejudice. Whether you agree or not, as a matter of fundamental religious liberty in Utah, that is the current law.

So, what makes it everyone else’s business?

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Wolfwoman
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Re: FLDS community = Hell on earth

Post by Wolfwoman »

tmac wrote: January 25th, 2023, 12:14 pm
Wolfwoman wrote: January 25th, 2023, 11:28 am
tmac wrote: January 25th, 2023, 9:40 am
Wolfwoman wrote: January 25th, 2023, 9:24 am

Which was not my intent in starting the discussion. But these things always go off on tangents.

My main point was that the FLDS is a pretty terrible place to be in. And if you were born in the LDS church from generations of Latter Day Saints, you could have easily been born in the FLDS sect if some of your ancestors had made the choice to go that way.

Not sure if anyone actually read the article or watched the videos interviewing Elizabeth Roundy. But here are some of the things mentioned.

1. Can’t wear the color red because it’s sacrilegious due to Jesus’ returning clothed in red.

2. Children couldn’t play with toys or have bikes because it was more important for them to learn to work.

3. Children separated from parents for no good reason.

4. Children as young as 8 being excommunicated.

5. Mother of 5 sent away from her young children to repent because she had a miscarriage and required surgery. She was separated from her children for FIVE YEARS. And it would have been longer or forever if she hadn’t decided to go back and get her kids.

6. Women 24 and 25 years old taken to meet their intended husbands for the first time and expected to get married to them right then and there. They had never even gone on a date with any boys, let alone these men. They had never so much as held hands with a boy.

Not to mention all of the other stuff that we have heard about Warren Jeffs and what he did.

I sincerely hope people commenting on here are not okay with all of this. But I guess some of you think arranged marriage is wonderful.
It should be pretty clear that I think the FLDS situation is a huge mess at this point. But I also included Elizabeth’s quote about growing up in a great, loving family, with loving parents and siblings.

No doubt there are and have been abuses in the FLDS culture, just as there have been in the LDS culture. I grew up with a physically abusive father, and a manipulative, emotionally abusive mother — right in the LDS Church. Both held high callings.

But why is it that everything that happens involving any Fundamentalist(s) has to be turned into a big drama fest?

What is the difference between a ban on the color Red, versus insistence that all men/boys wear White shirts? What is the difference?

As for arranged marriage, that’s something we’ll all have to sort out with God at some point. But, I agree, He always gives us a choice. Regardless of what mortals in the equation may do, He isn’t going to force anyone. In my case, though, I experienced plenty of force from my TBM LDS parents, including physical force. Unlike ER, I can’t say that I grew up in a loving family, where my parents loved, lived, and taught the gospel. They were too busy with their callings, and keeping up appearances.

And, as I think I have made abundantly clear, arranged marriage doesn’t happen among the FLDS either at this point. For AT LEAST 10 years.

For those who have spent some time around this, ER’s story and account are very old news, that sensationalistic MSM sources love to keep dredging up in an endless feedback cycle to further perpetuate the negative biases.
Are you for real? You don’t see a difference between banning red clothing and recommending or requiring white shirts when blessing the sacrament? I don’t know what wards you’ve attended in recent years, but where I am even 20 years ago you could wear a non-white shirt to church and it was not a big deal.

As for Elizabeth’s upbringing she did say in the interview that her father was excommunicated and no longer a member of the FLDS. She didn’t give the details of when they apparently started back there again. So it’s not surprising that she was raised in a loving home. She had a free thinking father who was a good person, and a good mother.

Why does it have to be such a big drama fest? Maybe because this is in the Unted States of America and we hope things would be better for people living here. If you don’t like the drama fest feel free to not participate in the discussion.
What I think doesn’t even really matter. I have paradigms and opinions just like you do, and we are both entitled to our respective positions.

But in this particular instance a 16 year-old girl apparently went to great lengths to exercise her liberty/agency, and frankly in this instance it is only her opinions that really matter. Her mother comes from a has-been perspective, having been scarred by some of her unfortunate experiences.

Although there may be some brain-washing, just as there is in the LDS Church, I’m not seeing any evidence of current force, so I don’t really see what there is to talk about here. ER’s revelations, sad as they may be, are at least 10 years behind the curve. Aside from the long-standing inherent biases, what makes this news-worthy?

Do you believe in freedom of religion in the U.S.? If I were a judge and someone brought this to me, I would say “She’s not quite “free, white and 21,” but almost — what do you want me to do about it”?

In a recent Utah Supreme Court case, the court ruled that in a custody dispute between a Fundamentalist man and his ex-wife, as a matter of religious liberty and fundamental parenting rights, the father was entitled to teach his children anything he wanted about fundamentalism, without any corresponding prejudice. Whether you agree or not, as a matter of fundamental religious liberty in Utah, that is the current law.

So, what makes it everyone else’s business?
I don’t have a clue about the runaway girl. So I can’t speak to any of that.

But Elizabeth just barely went to get her kids in 2020, so it’s certainly not 10 years ago.

I thought it was newsworthy because I found it on a news site? Shrug

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tmac
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2787
Location: Reality

Re: FLDS community = Hell on earth

Post by tmac »

Wolfwoman wrote: January 25th, 2023, 1:18 pm
tmac wrote: January 25th, 2023, 12:14 pm
Wolfwoman wrote: January 25th, 2023, 11:28 am
tmac wrote: January 25th, 2023, 9:40 am

It should be pretty clear that I think the FLDS situation is a huge mess at this point. But I also included Elizabeth’s quote about growing up in a great, loving family, with loving parents and siblings.

No doubt there are and have been abuses in the FLDS culture, just as there have been in the LDS culture. I grew up with a physically abusive father, and a manipulative, emotionally abusive mother — right in the LDS Church. Both held high callings.

But why is it that everything that happens involving any Fundamentalist(s) has to be turned into a big drama fest?

What is the difference between a ban on the color Red, versus insistence that all men/boys wear White shirts? What is the difference?

As for arranged marriage, that’s something we’ll all have to sort out with God at some point. But, I agree, He always gives us a choice. Regardless of what mortals in the equation may do, He isn’t going to force anyone. In my case, though, I experienced plenty of force from my TBM LDS parents, including physical force. Unlike ER, I can’t say that I grew up in a loving family, where my parents loved, lived, and taught the gospel. They were too busy with their callings, and keeping up appearances.

And, as I think I have made abundantly clear, arranged marriage doesn’t happen among the FLDS either at this point. For AT LEAST 10 years.

For those who have spent some time around this, ER’s story and account are very old news, that sensationalistic MSM sources love to keep dredging up in an endless feedback cycle to further perpetuate the negative biases.
Are you for real? You don’t see a difference between banning red clothing and recommending or requiring white shirts when blessing the sacrament? I don’t know what wards you’ve attended in recent years, but where I am even 20 years ago you could wear a non-white shirt to church and it was not a big deal.

As for Elizabeth’s upbringing she did say in the interview that her father was excommunicated and no longer a member of the FLDS. She didn’t give the details of when they apparently started back there again. So it’s not surprising that she was raised in a loving home. She had a free thinking father who was a good person, and a good mother.

Why does it have to be such a big drama fest? Maybe because this is in the Unted States of America and we hope things would be better for people living here. If you don’t like the drama fest feel free to not participate in the discussion.
What I think doesn’t even really matter. I have paradigms and opinions just like you do, and we are both entitled to our respective positions.

But in this particular instance a 16 year-old girl apparently went to great lengths to exercise her liberty/agency, and frankly in this instance it is only her opinions that really matter. Her mother comes from a has-been perspective, having been scarred by some of her unfortunate experiences.

Although there may be some brain-washing, just as there is in the LDS Church, I’m not seeing any evidence of current force, so I don’t really see what there is to talk about here. ER’s revelations, sad as they may be, are at least 10 years behind the curve. Aside from the long-standing inherent biases, what makes this news-worthy?

Do you believe in freedom of religion in the U.S.? If I were a judge and someone brought this to me, I would say “She’s not quite “free, white and 21,” but almost — what do you want me to do about it”?

In a recent Utah Supreme Court case, the court ruled that in a custody dispute between a Fundamentalist man and his ex-wife, as a matter of religious liberty and fundamental parenting rights, the father was entitled to teach his children anything he wanted about fundamentalism, without any corresponding prejudice. Whether you agree or not, as a matter of fundamental religious liberty in Utah, that is the current law.

So, what makes it everyone else’s business?
I don’t have a clue about the runaway girl. So I can’t speak to any of that.

But Elizabeth just barely went to get her kids in 2020, so it’s certainly not 10 years ago.

I thought it was newsworthy because I found it on a news site? Shrug
Fair enough. But the one and only reason the so-called “news site” was interested, is because it involves Fundamentalists, which their inherent biases find irresistible to talk about.

But the only real story is that the girl apparently exercised her own free will to borrow her mother’s car and re-join her faith community. But since they have almost no information about that, they are trying to turn ER’s unremarkable FLDS experiences into fake news. It’s definitely click bait with the MSM in Utah and Idaho.

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Sarah
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6462

Re: FLDS community = Hell on earth

Post by Sarah »

Bronco73idi wrote: January 25th, 2023, 11:44 am
Sarah wrote: January 25th, 2023, 10:43 am
Bronco73idi wrote: January 25th, 2023, 10:40 am
Sarah wrote: January 25th, 2023, 7:26 am

Maybe men need to read the story of Deborah more often.
You can talk about Deborah and I will talk about Nebuchadnezzar. Both people that the lord had to use to fulfill his will.

Are they not both excellent stories?
Yes, both excellent stories :)
What do they have in common? Both were people who were not given the priesthood. Ie both of them had to rebuke the children of Abraham.

Lehi led his children out of Nebuchadnezzar’s terror, not Sarah. Daniel was raised as a mighty prophet due to Neb’s terror and destruction of Jerusalem. The children of Abraham didn’t listen to the prophets like Ezekiel so the lord used good ole Neb to kill the children and make them repent.

Is it cold hearted that people were brutally murdered because of stubbornness?
That's why we should all follow the prophet.

Bronco73idi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2096

Re: FLDS community = Hell on earth

Post by Bronco73idi »

Sarah wrote: January 25th, 2023, 2:19 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: January 25th, 2023, 11:44 am
Sarah wrote: January 25th, 2023, 10:43 am
Bronco73idi wrote: January 25th, 2023, 10:40 am

You can talk about Deborah and I will talk about Nebuchadnezzar. Both people that the lord had to use to fulfill his will.

Are they not both excellent stories?
Yes, both excellent stories :)
What do they have in common? Both were people who were not given the priesthood. Ie both of them had to rebuke the children of Abraham.

Lehi led his children out of Nebuchadnezzar’s terror, not Sarah. Daniel was raised as a mighty prophet due to Neb’s terror and destruction of Jerusalem. The children of Abraham didn’t listen to the prophets like Ezekiel so the lord used good ole Neb to kill the children and make them repent.

Is it cold hearted that people were brutally murdered because of stubbornness?
That's why we should all follow the prophet.
As long as he isn’t fulfilling Isaiah….

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