When did Christ’s NT church apostatize?

[Ado]

I’ve always been curious as to what point in the early church that the apostasy happened. Was it simply when they all (except John Beloved) died? Did they not pass on authority to any of their own disciples? To the church? What kind of church were they setting up if it couldn’t continue after they died? Did the body of Christ all reject the priesthood, hence they all were killed? Did it happen gradually over time? I’m very ignorant to this history and don’t know where to begin to research it.

[Niemand]

It started before Jesus had died.

[Pazooka]

It started before Jesus had died.

With what event and persons?

[Niemand]

It started before Jesus had died.

With what event and persons?

Jesus repeatedly condemned certain tendencies in his sermons, so it is obvious it was already happening then. I see this early on in his three year mission. Jesus periodically corrected his apostles too.

Judas Iscariot was an obvious apostate. Who else did he influence in his time?

[Ado]

It started before Jesus had died.

With what event and persons?

Jesus repeatedly condemned certain tendencies in his sermons, so it is obvious it was already happening then. I see this early on in his three year mission. Jesus periodically corrected his apostles too.

Judas Iscariot was an obvious apostate. Who else did he influence in his time?

I figured this was why the church was eventually taken from the Jews and directed to the gentiles. So I guess I’m curious when the gentile church that was set up with their prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists and so forth become apostate, losing the authority of the priesthood?

[TheChristian]

There has always been a faithfull remnant in every generation .....

Thru the long centuries of time the testimony of Jesus of Nazerath has shone brightly.

[Niemand]

I figured this was why the church was eventually taken from the Jews and directed to the gentiles. So I guess I’m curious when the gentile church that was set up with their prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists and so forth become apostate, losing the authority of the priesthood?

Someone once said to me, whenever God builds a church, the Devil builds a chapel nearby. We needn't take the word "chapel" literally here, it could refer to many things.

The roots of Apostasy are many, but other than direct temptation the early converts had experience of:
* Human nature & avarice
* Pagan religion & witchcraft
* Apostate forms of Judaism
* Over-intellectualisation, i.e. making things more complex than they need be.
* Worldly politics and power struggles

Alternative power structures were already there early on. Jesus was asked about a stranger casting out devils in his name. He wasn't too bothered but clearly he hadn't been trained up by the official system.

Some people say the scriptures were written precisely because so much corruption was creeping in. Oral transmission of Jesus' teachings wasn't enough.

[Pazooka]

It started before Jesus had died.

With what event and persons?

Jesus repeatedly condemned certain tendencies in his sermons, so it is obvious it was already happening then. I see this early on in his three year mission. Jesus periodically corrected his apostles too.

Judas Iscariot was an obvious apostate. Who else did he influence in his time?

Oh, I see what you’re referring to.

Isn’t that detailed in Revelation 12?
The child (Jesus), as soon as he was taken up to heaven, left behind a persecuted remnant - -funny enough, described as they “which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” (Meaning they kept the law and preserved the teachings and first-hand witness of Jesus and what He saw in the heavens that was to be preserved by His followers.

We probably don’t know when the “church” (just means “house”) completely apostatized because they went metaphorically underground. We probably don’t have even a fraction of their records.

[Robin Hood]

The lights were finally extinguished in 570 AD.

[Pazooka]

It started before Jesus had died.

With what event and persons?

Jesus repeatedly condemned certain tendencies in his sermons, so it is obvious it was already happening then. I see this early on in his three year mission. Jesus periodically corrected his apostles too.

Judas Iscariot was an obvious apostate. Who else did he influence in his time?

I figured this was why the church was eventually taken from the Jews and directed to the gentiles. So I guess I’m curious when the gentile church that was set up with their prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists and so forth become apostate, losing the authority of the priesthood?

Unless the gospel was wrested from the Hebrews and taken, without authority from God, to the Gentiles of that day. Maybe the gospel was never intended for the Gentiles until the latter days.

We only have the questionable account of Acts to tell us Peter went anywhere near the Gentiles. In Matthew 10, Jesus instructs the 12: “Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” (Matt. 10:5-6)

James addresses his epistle to “the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad”

Peter addresses his epistle “to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia”…the “elect.” Strangers is a reference to being a stranger and a pilgrim on this earth - it does not equal Gentiles. These were the Hebrews of the diaspora.

John addresses “the elect lady and her children” (Rev 12)

Did the Church really apostatize? Or did the dragon force it into the wilderness of obscurity and then completely hijack the preaching of “Christ” in such a way that it became salt that had lost its savor?

[Ado]

The lights were finally extinguished in 570 AD.

Rise of Islam?

[Rubicon]

I think it was the martyrdom of the apostles (other than John, who tarried), so by 100 A.D. The loss of priesthood keys (ability to ordain bishops, apostles, etc ) was crucial. Local bishops and others did their best, but we see in our day with leader roulette what would happen without hierarchical correction, setting in order, etc.

Bishops ordaining successors is like if our bishops or elders quorum presidents started ordaining successors. Not the same as conferring the priesthood.

[BeNotDeceived]

The lights were finally extinguished in 570 AD.

The lights came back on in 1957.

[BeNotDeceived]

I think it was the martyrdom of the apostles (other than John, who tarried), so by 100 A.D. The loss of priesthood keys (ability to ordain bishops, apostles, etc ) was crucial. Local bishops and others did their best, but we see in our day with leader roulette what would happen without hierarchical correction, setting in order, etc.

Bishops ordaining successors is like if our bishops or elders quorum presidents started ordaining successors. Not the same as conferring the priesthood.

Who now has the authority to baptize?

How was authority to baptize given to John the Baptist?

[Robin Hood]

I think it was the martyrdom of the apostles (other than John, who tarried), so by 100 A.D. The loss of priesthood keys (ability to ordain bishops, apostles, etc ) was crucial. Local bishops and others did their best, but we see in our day with leader roulette what would happen without hierarchical correction, setting in order, etc.

Bishops ordaining successors is like if our bishops or elders quorum presidents started ordaining successors. Not the same as conferring the priesthood.

The apostles left instructions on how to perpetuate the office of bishop. Even during their time they couldn't be everywhere, so procedures were established. See Hugh Nibley's Apostles and Bishops in Early Christianity.
In fact, the offices which remained were Bishop, Priest and Deacon - all offices in the Aaronic Priesthood. So it looks to me that the higher priesthood was lost, but the lower priesthood was perpetuated for much longer.

[cab]

I think it was the martyrdom of the apostles (other than John, who tarried), so by 100 A.D. The loss of priesthood keys (ability to ordain bishops, apostles, etc ) was crucial. Local bishops and others did their best, but we see in our day with leader roulette what would happen without hierarchical correction, setting in order, etc.

Bishops ordaining successors is like if our bishops or elders quorum presidents started ordaining successors. Not the same as conferring the priesthood.

The apostles left instructions on how to perpetuate the office of bishop. Even during their time they couldn't ve everywhere, so procedures were established. See Hugh Nibley's Apostles and Bishops in Early Christianity.
In fact, the offices which remained were Bishop, Priest and Deacon - all offices in the Aaronic Priesthood. So it looks to me that the higher priesthood was lost, but the lower priesthood was perpetuated for much longer.

I find this plausible.
And with the lower priesthood comes the opportunity to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost…. But then, perhaps, once a critical mass of people stop seeking to be born again, instead depending on the rites of the orthodoxy, then true apostasy sets in…

[Niemand]

The bit I've always found hard to stomach in LDS doctrine is the notion that Joseph Smith was supposedly better able to set up successor generations than Jesus Christ himself on the Earth.

Are we really supposed to believe that as each apostle of Christ was bumped off that the church disappeared? But that Joseph Smith was able to perpetuate his church after his death?

Joseph Smith himself would admit that Jesus Christ was a better man than he was.

As someone of a Protestant background I have sympathy with "the Christian"'s statement above about there being a faithful remnant at all times. I believe there have always been such people from Jesus' time to the present day. Whether they had the proper priesthood is another matter of course, but there have always been genuine, sincere Christians.

The Jews have a belief, partly related to the story of Sodom and Gomorrah etc, that if there remain a few righteous people in a city or a country, then it cannot be destroyed. I hold that to be largely true. The continuing presence of the righteous on this Earth is partly what has preserved it from total destruction thus far.

[MikeMaillet]

I'm confused by the question because I don't understand from what the NT Christians were apostatizing. The 12 Apostles were to branch out and spread the word that Christ was the Son of God and that he had resurrected. They were successful in their mission. I think it is the latter-day church that apostatized when we rejected the fulness of the Gospel as described in the new and everlasting Covenant, the Book of Mormon.

Mike

[Rubicon]

How was authority to baptize given to John the Baptist?

D&C 84:28. He was ordained by an angel when he was eight days old.

[TheChristian]

The bit I've always found hard to stomach in LDS doctrine is the notion that Joseph Smith was supposedly better able to set up successor generations than Jesus Christ himself on the Earth.

Are we really supposed to believe that as each apostle of Christ was bumped off that the church disappeared? But that Joseph Smith was able to perpetuate his church after his death?

Joseph Smith himself would admit that Jesus Christ was a better man than he was.

As someone of a Protestant background I have sympathy with "the Christian"'s statement above about there being a faithful remnant at all times. I believe there have always been such people from Jesus' time to the present day. Whether they had the proper priesthood is another matter of course, but there have always been genuine, sincere Christians.

The Jews have a belief, partly related to the story of Sodom and Gomorrah etc, that if there remain a few righteous people in a city or a country, then it cannot be destroyed. I hold that to be largely true. The continuing presence of the righteous on this Earth is partly what has preserved it from total destruction thus far.

When the Spirit of God falls apon a man, he is filled with Authority and Power.
The Spirit of Christ has fallen apon men from the day of Pentecost, and down thru the centuries and is still manifesting himself in our day were ever there is sincere faith in Jesus our Lord.
In the New testament we see what manifestations occur when the Holy Ghost falls apon a man, Cornelius and all his household when the Spirit fell apon them, they began to speak in tongues and prophesy like unto the Disciples apon the day of Pentecost. Also Paul, when he laid his hands apon converts the Spirit fell apon them and they began to speak in tongues and prophesy.
Now when is the last time any have witnessed in a meeting such New testament out pourings of the Spirit, were men and women arose filled with utter joy and spoke in languages they have never learned, praising God and prophesieing?
Or at baptism services when hands are laid apon the heads of those newly baptised?

Such New Testament "wonders" only occur were there is a living faith in Jesus of Nazerath and Gods Spirit goes were ever He wills apon the earth and were ever He finds Faith in Jesus there He manifests Himself, it has nothing to do with how much knowlegde a man has, wether a man has little knowlegde or much matters not, it is simple child like faith in Jesus of Nazerath that brings down heaven to earth.
And that child like dynamic faith has been exercised by a faithfull remnant in every generation.

In essence the Spirit is true Authority, as Jesus rightly said to His disciples........
"Without Me you can do nothing"

[JLHPROF]

The bit I've always found hard to stomach in LDS doctrine is the notion that Joseph Smith was supposedly better able to set up successor generations than Jesus Christ himself on the Earth.

Are we really supposed to believe that as each apostle of Christ was bumped off that the church disappeared? But that Joseph Smith was able to perpetuate his church after his death?

Joseph Smith himself would admit that Jesus Christ was a better man than he was.

If we believe in the sacred seven dispensation periods (the seven seals) then it had nothing to do with Joseph being better able than Christ. The pattern was established before either of them that Joseph would head the final dispensation. And prophets had already foretold a falling away after the Apostolic dispensation in Christ's day.

The idea that Joseph did it better came from a hyperbolic statement by Joseph and I have no doubt he believed in, deferred to, and respected our Savior and his authority.

[TheChristian]

Are the Sign gifts of the Spirit manifesting themselves today in your gatherings and meeting places?
In the early Christian church as you can find amongst sincere gatherings of Christians today, the New Testament gifts of the Spirit are manifest, one can hear christians speaking/singing in Languages they have never learnt, oft a heavenly tongue, sometimes an earthly one, others interpretating said tongues, one can hear christians prophesy, in said gatherings, at times the sick are healed, devils are cast out.
There is Joy there, people sing from their spirits and hearts, oft there are tears.
And Jesus is the very center of their worship.

Paul said,
The distinguishing marks of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs, wonders, and miracles.

by the power of signs and wonders, and by the power of the Spirit of God. So from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ.

Yes in your meetings and gatherings today are such signs, wonders and miracles occuring, are the sick healed, do the blind see, the lame walk, are devils cast out?
These are matters to consider before claiming the Christians are all in a state of apostacy and darkness.

[Bronco73idi]

The lights were finally extinguished in 570 AD.

The lights came back on in 1957.

1260 and 570 doesn’t equal 73

[LDS Physician]

It started before Jesus had died.

With what event and persons?

Jesus repeatedly condemned certain tendencies in his sermons, so it is obvious it was already happening then. I see this early on in his three year mission. Jesus periodically corrected his apostles too.

Judas Iscariot was an obvious apostate. Who else did he influence in his time?

I figured this was why the church was eventually taken from the Jews and directed to the gentiles. So I guess I’m curious when the gentile church that was set up with their prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists and so forth become apostate, losing the authority of the priesthood?

Circa 2020, possibly earlier. You're witnessing it now. Remember that trumpet drop? Remember when "the church" publically voiced support for the legalization of homosexual marriage in the Promised Land? You're in the middle of the Gentile apostacy.

[Niemand]

Are the Sign gifts of the Spirit manifesting themselves today in your gatherings and meeting places?
In the early Christian church as you can find amongst sincere gatherings of Christians today, the New Testament gifts of the Spirit are manifest, one can hear christians speaking/singing in Languages they have never learnt, oft a heavenly tongue, sometimes an earthly one, others interpretating said tongues, one can hear christians prophesy, in said gatherings, at times the sick are healed, devils are cast out.
There is Joy there, people sing from their spirits and hearts, oft there are tears.
And Jesus is the very center of their worship.

Paul said,
The distinguishing marks of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs, wonders, and miracles.

by the power of signs and wonders, and by the power of the Spirit of God. So from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ.

Yes in your meetings and gatherings today are such signs, wonders and miracles occuring, are the sick healed, do the blind see, the lame walk, are devils cast out?
These are matters to consider before claiming the Christians are all in a state of apostacy and darkness.

I think you know the answer TC, the LDS operates like a machine. That kind of thing removes power from the structure and hands it back to the individuals.

We all have to "come unto Christ" individually not because some old man in a suit told you so.

I've seen some of these things. But here's the twist. Not in an LDS church.

I testified on here how I stopped a thunderstorm through my priesthood. It can happen. It was going on for hours and within minutes of my prayer it ceased.