Is Priesthood Even a Thing?

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Redpilled Mormon
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Is Priesthood Even a Thing?

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

Maybe it's already been mentioned on the forums before, but this guy's work is new to me, wondered if you guys have seen any of his vids, especially on the topic of whether priesthood is even a valid concept. I think he makes some very interesting points.



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Thinker
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Re: Is Priesthood Even a Thing?

Post by Thinker »

Yes, anything that has REAL influence is real.
Eg., If the priesthood helps someone behave better, love others more - then that’s good influence.

Even if it’s largely contrived as a more recent tradition (ordaining 11-year olds etc)…Priesthood in the lds church helps motivate people to exercise more faith. Other things can too, but this involves more backing by the group. “It takes a community to raise a child” & we’re all children still growing spiritually. :)

As with anything good, it could also be used for unrighteous dominion etc. So humble caution is needed. And these days with such unrighteous dominion cult mentality, it’s good to recognize when authority is being abused.
Last edited by Thinker on January 22nd, 2023, 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is Priesthood Even a Thing?

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

If you consider a personal commission by the Lord to serve others and be a disciple of Christ, then yes.

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FoxMammaWisdom
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Re: Is Priesthood Even a Thing?

Post by FoxMammaWisdom »

Yes, the title, office, and association with others who have the same designation, is a thing.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/priesthood

"Power in" the priesthood depends on your associations with others who have the same office and title; depends on your relationship with the rest of them. Same as any other club.

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: Is Priesthood Even a Thing?

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

Thinker wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 6:12 pm Yes, anything that has REAL influence is real.
Eg., If the priesthood helps someone behave better, love others more - then that’s good influence.

Even if it’s largely contrived as a more recent tradition (ordaining 11-year olds etc)…Priesthood in the lds church helps motivate people to exercise more faith. Other things can too, but this involves more backing by the group. “It takes a community to raise a child” & we’re all children still growing spiritually. :)

As with anything good, it could also be used for unrighteous dominion etc. So humble caution is needed. And these days with such unrighteous dominion cult mentality, it’s good to recognize when authority is being abused.
Just to be clear, I'm not dismissing the placebo effect; I know its effects are real and measurable. But I'm wondering about the authenticity of notion of the lds (and many other restoration offshoots) priesthoods. Based on the scriptural and historical evidence offered by the presenter of the above vids, I lean towards 'no bueno'.

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: Is Priesthood Even a Thing?

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 6:17 pm If you consider a personal commission by the Lord to serve others and be a disciple of Christ, then yes.
I think that's a pretty broad definition I can get on board with. However, the current lds practice seems like an artifice of men to control others and promote their own authority.

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Enoch
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Re: Is Priesthood Even a Thing?

Post by Enoch »

As I see things, I would say that having the priesthood implies a connection and association to the Elohim, heavenly beings. It would mean that just as in the beginning of Joseph's ministry we saw constant flow of angels bringing revelation, knowledge, light, wisdom - that the same association, visitations would have continued to this day. Modern day revelations were being gathered together and growing in number, and they came to a halt - then wasn't that association broken? Wouldn't we be just modern day Israel, we have those that sit in Moses seat, without the works, power or association that Moses had to the heavens - for they honor me with their lips but the heart is far from me?

Aren't we too waiting for him - hoping that in the darkest hour he will make his appearance?
For every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ.

If I were an evil fallen angel - wouldn't I sit at the throne of that establishment by now - if Im a liar from the beginning wouldn't I copy the forms, wouldn't that be best way - get as close as you can, that the imitation can't be distinguished from the original? If that fallen angel wanted our souls, wouldn't he stop at nothing to confuse the children God? the perfect plan take over that church then subtlety inject his own doctrine - to I can control and manipulate the heart and mind of those without them knowing --- what a better prisoner that the one who doesn't know he is one?
Last edited by Enoch on January 22nd, 2023, 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is Priesthood Even a Thing?

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 6:52 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 6:17 pm If you consider a personal commission by the Lord to serve others and be a disciple of Christ, then yes.
I think that's a pretty broad definition I can get on board with. However, the current lds practice seems like an artifice of men to control others and promote their own authority.
I don’t know if I could give a better response than this. 49 specifically addresses the priesthood.
47) For their shepherds shall cease to teach them that they should seek to stand personally in the presence of their Peacemaker while yet in the flesh. Yea, they shall entirely misconstrue the teachings of the Temple and they shall teach that the ordinances bring salvation.

48) Behold, it is not the ordinances of salvation that bring salvation, for that is the office of the Peacemaker through the Holy Ghost. Rather, the ordinances of salvation are those ceremonies and celebrations that teach salvation. But the shepherds of the church shall teach that salvation comes by and only through the performance of ordinances and that the ordinances may only be performed by the shepherds of the church. Wherefore, they shall teach that they are the Ministers of Salvation and they shall wear that doctrine upon their sleeves.

49) But this is not all, they shall insist that the ordinances are locked up with keys and that only the shepherds possess or may possess the keys to their performance. And they shall lock up the minds and the hearts of the people as a storehouse and they shall put the keys thereof into their pockets. For the people, because of the teachings of the shepherds, shall universally believe that they have no access to heaven because of the keys. And they are as if locked in a cell and must depend upon the shepherds for ordinances to save them. Yea, the shepherds of the church shall make of themselves masters, and they shall esteem all men as servants unto them.

50) And this shall be extolled as great wisdom and sound doctrine. Yea, this shall the people call restoration and the fullness of all things. Yea, this shall they call the fullness of the gospel and it is the ensign that they shall raise up in the last days unto all the world.

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: Is Priesthood Even a Thing?

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 7:41 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 6:52 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 6:17 pm If you consider a personal commission by the Lord to serve others and be a disciple of Christ, then yes.
I think that's a pretty broad definition I can get on board with. However, the current lds practice seems like an artifice of men to control others and promote their own authority.
I don’t know if I could give a better response than this. 49 specifically addresses the priesthood.
47) For their shepherds shall cease to teach them that they should seek to stand personally in the presence of their Peacemaker while yet in the flesh. Yea, they shall entirely misconstrue the teachings of the Temple and they shall teach that the ordinances bring salvation.

48) Behold, it is not the ordinances of salvation that bring salvation, for that is the office of the Peacemaker through the Holy Ghost. Rather, the ordinances of salvation are those ceremonies and celebrations that teach salvation. But the shepherds of the church shall teach that salvation comes by and only through the performance of ordinances and that the ordinances may only be performed by the shepherds of the church. Wherefore, they shall teach that they are the Ministers of Salvation and they shall wear that doctrine upon their sleeves.

49) But this is not all, they shall insist that the ordinances are locked up with keys and that only the shepherds possess or may possess the keys to their performance. And they shall lock up the minds and the hearts of the people as a storehouse and they shall put the keys thereof into their pockets. For the people, because of the teachings of the shepherds, shall universally believe that they have no access to heaven because of the keys. And they are as if locked in a cell and must depend upon the shepherds for ordinances to save them. Yea, the shepherds of the church shall make of themselves masters, and they shall esteem all men as servants unto them.

50) And this shall be extolled as great wisdom and sound doctrine. Yea, this shall the people call restoration and the fullness of all things. Yea, this shall they call the fullness of the gospel and it is the ensign that they shall raise up in the last days unto all the world.
I quite like that, but don't recognize the verses. Is that from the Nemenah?

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Wondering Wendy
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Re: Is Priesthood Even a Thing?

Post by Wondering Wendy »

I just watched these the other day and am still processing. Some of it rang true to me, but I'm still trying to fit it all together with other things I know to be true.

Also, here is an interesting comment from the first video.
priesthood is the Holy Ghost.... given to those who have received the born of God/Christ. In the Old Testament it not only tells us that the aaronic priesthood was a punishment for the levites in Numbers 18:1, but also calls all the people a royal priesthood at the base of Mt Sinai

1 Peter 2: 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

A royal priesthood. These words are a direct quotation from Exodus 19:6, according to the LXX. version. The Hebrew has “a kingdom of priests,” as in Revelation 1:6; which would mean, God’s organised empire, every member of which is a priest/priestess. No hierarchy. All are equal. God, not being a respecter of persons/men and women.

Who was his audience? Men only? No! Who were some who came out of this group? and past and future groups? Prophetesses, like Deborah and Miriam. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/christop ... 18650.html

This, and the next phrase, “an holy (i.e., consecrated) nation,” describe the whole Israelite nation as they stood beneath Mount Sinai. This must be taken into consideration in dealing with the doctrine of the setting and promises from Christ. It is speaking to all members of this people. They are all being addressed as a royal priesthood, an holy nation. Why? because all/men and women can receive the Holy Ghost.
This rings true to me.

There is still a part of me that wonders if the Lord gave us the Aaronic Priesthood as a curse after the people rejected the simple truth, just as written in the OT. I also wonder this because of the way the temple teaches that both men and women receive the priesthood, and I wonder if that's why it is in there as a subtle teaching method to lead individuals to that simple truth.

What I do know is what D&C 76 states.
54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.

55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things

56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;

57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—

59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.
These scriptures tell us that everyone who obtains the Celestial Kingdom shall be given all things. They are all priests and kings.

The Lord adds no female language in these scriptures at all. This doesn't mean women aren't included, only that these terms symbolize a status as put forth in the OT.

The church of the Firstborn. In the OT the firstborn was who would inherit all from their father. They are the son and heir. All celestial beings will inherit all from the Father. Joint-heirs with Christ.

The celestial are given all things from the Father, and all are priest and kings.

So, the question is: did God give us the AP as we have it now, or did he merely allow it? Did he give the AP in the OT, or merely allow it? On this I am undecided, though seeking answers.

Either way, I don't think it is the celestial ideal. However, I do think it is a structure that helps some people learn and grow in the spirit, but it has also stifled growth in other ways, as the videos point out. I believe we would learn better practicing the full truth as given in the beginning of the restoration, as will exist in Zion, than what we have now.

This is how I see it at the moment, anyway. :)

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Re: Is Priesthood Even a Thing?

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 7:58 pm I quite like that, but don't recognize the verses. Is that from the Nemenah?
Yes. It’s one of the most scathing rebukes I’ve read of the pride of the latter-day church and keys and authority.

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TheDuke
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Re: Is Priesthood Even a Thing?

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Interesting question, but I'm not sure I understand it as it is quite broad.

First, the PH is the power of god given to man (a person, man or woman) to act in his name. so, of course it is real. That is god can give anyone at any time power to do something for him. Often as we see in OT he calls prophets with a message and gives them power to deliver it (as in Sam the Lamanite). Seems whenever he calls a one-off person they are titled prophets or prophetesses and give them very specific responsibilities with PH to get it done then the PH is gone.

In numerous cases he also gives more permanent PH, usually to administer and pass on the authority and rites. Seems anciently this was either father-to-son with occasional hiccups with someone outside the lineage (i.e. Samuel) that were in the OT termed to be of the order of Melchizedek.

In Jesus time, he seemed to end the father-son order and called the 12 and the 70. After he died seems they added bishops and missionaries, etc... all these seemed to have power to administer (organize the church) and pass it on. Eventually, with Constantine the bishops took over and there were not more apostles or the like, eventually a single bishop took over as pope and ran things. then the protestants decided the PH wasn't a real thing as they felt the church was in apostacy so any one could just claim authority without any basis other than they felt enlightened. So you had two beliefs, one in need for PH and one without.

then came LDS with JS. He claimed direct authority of PH from messengers from god. they had power to administer stuff and pass it on. JS seemed to do this close to what Jesus did with councils, not individuals. With Joseph it would appear that all the councils were equal (not today) as in each church (now stakes but then in OH, Mo, Ill, IO) the high councils were all equal and equal with Q12 and FP of each church organization. So today the Q15 have taken all rights to administer and pass on the PH to their chosen, originally Q15 was called by council, now I'm not sure, the entire story of how RMN and DHO were called doesn't sound like by council (after nomination of course, but I don't know). Anyway the one exception to all this was sealing power, according to JS this was held by the president (or one he chose) at a time and no one else at the time and passed on after death as that was the one power that passed at death confirmed in revelations.

So, it seems clear to me that LDS PH to administer to LDS church is a thing. Is it done correctly or with unrighteous dominion is a valid question. But that is different than is the authority there. Much like Eli and Samuel, I suppose. but what does all this mean to us leaves on the tree? I am a HP, ordained by my father a HP with LoA back to JS. I believe it is real. BTW I don't believe that RMN had a right or even the power to take it away and return my PH authority to elder which is an appendage to MP as Joseph explained in his later writings (much on LDS FF about this last year). Personally, I think that I have the right to preside over my family with all power and authority and god will be bound when I do. But, the PTB seem to think I cannot even perform my on sacrament without their permission or baptize my grandchild, etc... I'm all for organization and management but not unrighteous control.

So, I do believe in PH and PH power and I believe that when the PH is available on the earth and being administered by the Lord's bureaucrats that we must work with them. However, if they fail us then it would seem the Lord should allow for some redress. The Lord may give or allow us to continue with PH authority if we are truly robbed of it and the HG lets us know, but that would only be for us and our family, not to go and preach and do public stuff.

As to the power vs. authority. The two are not the same. That old amen to the PH is about the power not the authority (see Eli). to have the power to perform PH duties requires one of the following three things it seems. 1) be worthy , 2) worthiness of the one(s) being served, . 3) the Lord allows administration to fulfill his needs even when none are worthy on occasion.

I know the Lord has given me PH authority to bring my family to salvation and exaltation. It has been a hard fought effort and as said before having the rights and powers is more than just the authority. But working through both authority and power by HG is necessary. Like many on here, I went through a time when I didn't feel the authority (leaders) had that any longer, but the Lord sent me crawling back after eating crow to make his point to me.

Any on here that think they can just go their way without any more authority than they feel like it or they feel good about it (i.e. their version of feeling the spirit), is likely just wrong and looking to make a way without the hard task of resolving their personal differences with those that have the authority but are difficult to deal with. IMO.

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Theveilofforgetting
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Re: Is Priesthood Even a Thing?

Post by Theveilofforgetting »

I am curious. I didn't grow up with the priesthood and only have had glimpses.

My husband, who I am estranged from, was not a typical priesthood holder(not being worthy for at least a decade). He joined in blessing circles and blessed our oldest 2 children (baby blessings) but otherwise didn't use it and probably didn't quite understand it himself.

My three younger sons have all been ordained (aaronic). My 17yo baptised his 11yo brother last month. He was given no counsel, which he expected (From Bishop, counsellor or an Elder). I think they throw him in the deep end often (he started blessing Sacranent the week after his baptism). Not sure how it's suppose to work, I'd think they'd discuss it more but as a mother I'm not privy to much. My 14 and 11yo started passing Sacrament two Sundays ago and I think it was only because of the older youth explaining it that they had any clue what they were doing. Granted, we have a new Bishopric and the counsellors are fumbling about with their new calling (which I find normal and human).

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Re: Is Priesthood Even a Thing?

Post by Thinker »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 6:50 pm
Thinker wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 6:12 pm Yes, anything that has REAL influence is real.
Eg., If the priesthood helps someone behave better, love others more - then that’s good influence.

Even if it’s largely contrived as a more recent tradition (ordaining 11-year olds etc)…Priesthood in the lds church helps motivate people to exercise more faith. Other things can too, but this involves more backing by the group. “It takes a community to raise a child” & we’re all children still growing spiritually. :)

As with anything good, it could also be used for unrighteous dominion etc. So humble caution is needed. And these days with such unrighteous dominion cult mentality, it’s good to recognize when authority is being abused.
Just to be clear, I'm not dismissing the placebo effect; I know its effects are real and measurable. But I'm wondering about the authenticity of notion of the lds (and many other restoration offshoots) priesthoods. Based on the scriptural and historical evidence offered by the presenter of the above vids, I lean towards 'no bueno'.
:) I appreciate that you caught the implication. Yet, doesn’t priesthood, prayer & trying to do God’s will - all work based on FAITH? Who cares what the LDS Monopoly board game rules, or the Hindu, Judaic, or Islamic Monopoly rules state… what matters is the Spirit, truth and faith.

That said, the church is significantly corrupt at the top along with blind followers. So for those basing priesthood on that corrupt “authority” which exercises unrighteous dominion (ie medical coercion)… “amen to the priesthood of that man.” In other words, God’s not part of such pride that prioritizes religious praises of men above all - not today, nor 2,000 years ago.

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: Is Priesthood Even a Thing?

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

Thinker wrote: January 25th, 2023, 7:55 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 6:50 pm
Thinker wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 6:12 pm Yes, anything that has REAL influence is real.
Eg., If the priesthood helps someone behave better, love others more - then that’s good influence.

Even if it’s largely contrived as a more recent tradition (ordaining 11-year olds etc)…Priesthood in the lds church helps motivate people to exercise more faith. Other things can too, but this involves more backing by the group. “It takes a community to raise a child” & we’re all children still growing spiritually. :)

As with anything good, it could also be used for unrighteous dominion etc. So humble caution is needed. And these days with such unrighteous dominion cult mentality, it’s good to recognize when authority is being abused.
Just to be clear, I'm not dismissing the placebo effect; I know its effects are real and measurable. But I'm wondering about the authenticity of notion of the lds (and many other restoration offshoots) priesthoods. Based on the scriptural and historical evidence offered by the presenter of the above vids, I lean towards 'no bueno'.
:) I appreciate that you caught the implication. Yet, doesn’t priesthood, prayer & trying to do God’s will - all work based on FAITH? Who cares what the LDS Monopoly board game rules, or the Hindu, Judaic, or Islamic Monopoly rules state… what matters is the Spirit, truth and faith.

That said, the church is significantly corrupt at the top along with blind followers. So for those basing priesthood on that corrupt “authority” which exercises unrighteous dominion (ie medical coercion)… “amen to the priesthood of that man.” In other words, God’s not part of such pride that prioritizes religious praises of men above all - not today, nor 2,000 years ago.
I think the culture of presuming God has put handcuffs on himself that he'll only work his power and miracles through people who have little pieces of paper showing the line of succession of people who laid hands on their heads is pretty damaging. And I know that officially the lds narrative is that no such constraint exists, yet the practical implication is that members learn the culture of belief that it does.

The bishop in my ward giving a combined hour long meeting to both the priesthood and relief society to underscore the importance of priesthood power (while neglecting to mention that healing blessings are worked by faith, not some 'line of authority' argument) is one example. No wonder evangelists and people from other restoration branches are asking for and witnessing actual bonified miracles, including raising the dead (!) while within the lds church we praise poisonous jabs concocted by our new world gadianton masters as 'modern miracles'.

Seriously, when I saw that Mormon Book Reviews video about miracles that were worked by the offshoot restoration branch 'Church of Jesus Christ' in Quincy, FL; well that was just half an hour away from where I was raised in Bainbridge, GA. We never saw anybody raised from the dead in my branch, but meanwhile apparently one town over it was a regular thing...

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Re: Is Priesthood Even a Thing?

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

I'll also give a personal example.

About 2 years ago, my sister the night before an operation to remove a tumor from her intestines was in excruciating pain. I mean unspeakable pain; she couldn't take it and lunged for a gun to take her own life because of how much pain she was in (my brother in law and I had to restrain her from her suicide attempts). Because of the operation the next day, she couldn't have anything to diminish her pain.

It's 3 am and there's literally no one I can call for help, I'm waiting the night through and watching her suffer is killing me. I should add that at that point I was a jack mormon, but still TBM, I didn't have the doubts and knowledge that I do now.

She asks me to give her a blessing, which terrifies me. I've never given a blessing; I don't know how. She knows I have the priesthood (if it exists at all, which I strongly doubt, but I didn't back then). I want anyone else to do it but me; I know I'm not worthy, I don't know how to do it, etc. But it's the middle of the night and I can't reach anyone who I think would have 'real' authority to do such a thing. My brother in law is there, but he's even more jack mormon than me and I don't even know if he ever got the priesthood at all.

I finally reach a friend in my ward, but he's in another state and can't help. He calms me down and assures me I can do this, gives me instructions. The mini prayer to consecrate the oil, he tells me the structure of how a healing blessing should work, I'm writing it all down because I can't remember the exact layout of the words and I know I'm going to screw it up.

It takes me a half hour to try to work up the courage, I'm spending most of this time trying to 'remember my lines' as if this is all some kind of magic spell or something (ridiculous in hindsight, but this is the culture the ldscorp engenders imo), worried that I'll overstep my authority and 'overpromise' something that the Lord won't back up. Figuring in that I'd darn well better include escape clauses like 'if you have the faith to be healed' (so that if the poor suffering recipient isn't healed, then it must be their own damn fault) and 'if the Lord wills' so I can give myself an out if nothing happens. Standard lds blessing protocol that I've heard in numerous other blessings.

Then I finally muster the courage.... and my mind goes blank. I can't remember my lines, but I don't dare open my eyes to try to check the script, since I've already started the blessing.

I end up mostly just pouring out my heart in asking God to please bless my sister with healing and relief of pain. I don't think I invoked the right words to 'command' healing 'by the power of Greyskull' or whatever, I just humbled myself knowing I was 100% unworthy to ask God for anything, but asking any and begging for his intervention for healing and relief.

My sister tells me afterwards the pain is still horrible but has retreated to be bearable; she is even able to sleep in fits and spurts through the rest of the night, then I drive her to her operation the next day, which is a success. I'm still very grateful to God that he graced us both with relief in that desperate moment.

But my point in telling that story is I look back now and see the whole 'structure' of the blessing, invoking by the correct order of wording and the application of olive oil, and I find the whole rigmarole as ridiculous and somewhat faith-destroying. God doesn't need to operate within some mystical ritual; he has the power to act whenever/wherever. And we've seen miracles worked through history by men and women and people who've never even heard of the lds church, much less have some induction to a special priesthood. And by putting so much stress on the ritualization of asking miracles (to the point where most blessings don't actually 'ask' God but rather invoke his power as if it's a given), I actually think the current understanding of priesthood can put a chokehold on our ability to act in faith, just the opposite of the way it should be.

Hopefully that didn't sound too incoherent. :)

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Fred
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Re: Is Priesthood Even a Thing?

Post by Fred »

Thinker wrote: January 25th, 2023, 7:55 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 6:50 pm
Thinker wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 6:12 pm Yes, anything that has REAL influence is real.
Eg., If the priesthood helps someone behave better, love others more - then that’s good influence.

Even if it’s largely contrived as a more recent tradition (ordaining 11-year olds etc)…Priesthood in the lds church helps motivate people to exercise more faith. Other things can too, but this involves more backing by the group. “It takes a community to raise a child” & we’re all children still growing spiritually. :)

As with anything good, it could also be used for unrighteous dominion etc. So humble caution is needed. And these days with such unrighteous dominion cult mentality, it’s good to recognize when authority is being abused.
Just to be clear, I'm not dismissing the placebo effect; I know its effects are real and measurable. But I'm wondering about the authenticity of notion of the lds (and many other restoration offshoots) priesthoods. Based on the scriptural and historical evidence offered by the presenter of the above vids, I lean towards 'no bueno'.
:) I appreciate that you caught the implication. Yet, doesn’t priesthood, prayer & trying to do God’s will - all work based on FAITH? Who cares what the LDS Monopoly board game rules, or the Hindu, Judaic, or Islamic Monopoly rules state… what matters is the Spirit, truth and faith.

That said, the church is significantly corrupt at the top along with blind followers. So for those basing priesthood on that corrupt “authority” which exercises unrighteous dominion (ie medical coercion)… “amen to the priesthood of that man.” In other words, God’s not part of such pride that prioritizes religious praises of men above all - not today, nor 2,000 years ago.
The first time that anyone administers to a sick person that is healed, is likely NOT due to faith. As with any good parent, some requests will be granted just for the asking. They may not be granted if not asked for, however.

Miracles can be performed by men or women without Priesthood authority or even faith, depending on God's will.

Priesthood certainly does not guarantee that God will comply with a request.

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Re: Is Priesthood Even a Thing?

Post by Niemand »

In the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches, there is an obsession with priesthood and how you have to come up the right route. They have a similar fixation to Mormonism about direct line of authority.

In many Protestant churches there is often not the same fixation at all. It is believed someone's priesthood is derived from God, not an old institution.

Many of the things which the LDS ascribe to the "priesthood" are explained by the Holy Ghost elsewhere.
Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 25th, 2023, 10:22 pm But my point in telling that story is I look back now and see the whole 'structure' of the blessing, invoking by the correct order of wording and the application of olive oil, and I find the whole rigmarole as ridiculous and somewhat faith-destroying. God doesn't need to operate within some mystical ritual; he has the power to act whenever/wherever. And we've seen miracles worked through history by men and women and people who've never even heard of the lds church, much less have some induction to a special priesthood. And by putting so much stress on the ritualization of asking miracles (to the point where most blessings don't actually 'ask' God but rather invoke his power as if it's a given), I actually think the current understanding of priesthood can put a chokehold on our ability to act in faith, just the opposite of the way it should be.

Hopefully that didn't sound too incoherent. :)
Not at all. After all in the Mormon church you're not allowed to say the Lord's Prayer in a service like many other churches do, but you have to recite the sacrament prayers over and over until the wording is perfect and can only do blessings according to a set formula.

Are we expected to believe early Christians had access to olive oil at all times? Particularly outside the places where olives were grown?

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Re: Is Priesthood Even a Thing?

Post by Thinker »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 25th, 2023, 10:22 pm I'll also give a personal example.

About 2 years ago, my sister the night before an operation to remove a tumor from her intestines was in excruciating pain. I mean unspeakable pain; she couldn't take it and lunged for a gun to take her own life because of how much pain she was in (my brother in law and I had to restrain her from her suicide attempts). Because of the operation the next day, she couldn't have anything to diminish her pain.

It's 3 am and there's literally no one I can call for help, I'm waiting the night through and watching her suffer is killing me. I should add that at that point I was a jack mormon, but still TBM, I didn't have the doubts and knowledge that I do now.

She asks me to give her a blessing, which terrifies me. I've never given a blessing; I don't know how. She knows I have the priesthood (if it exists at all, which I strongly doubt, but I didn't back then). I want anyone else to do it but me; I know I'm not worthy, I don't know how to do it, etc. But it's the middle of the night and I can't reach anyone who I think would have 'real' authority to do such a thing. My brother in law is there, but he's even more jack mormon than me and I don't even know if he ever got the priesthood at all.

I finally reach a friend in my ward, but he's in another state and can't help. He calms me down and assures me I can do this, gives me instructions. The mini prayer to consecrate the oil, he tells me the structure of how a healing blessing should work, I'm writing it all down because I can't remember the exact layout of the words and I know I'm going to screw it up.

It takes me a half hour to try to work up the courage, I'm spending most of this time trying to 'remember my lines' as if this is all some kind of magic spell or something (ridiculous in hindsight, but this is the culture the ldscorp engenders imo), worried that I'll overstep my authority and 'overpromise' something that the Lord won't back up. Figuring in that I'd darn well better include escape clauses like 'if you have the faith to be healed' (so that if the poor suffering recipient isn't healed, then it must be their own damn fault) and 'if the Lord wills' so I can give myself an out if nothing happens. Standard lds blessing protocol that I've heard in numerous other blessings.

Then I finally muster the courage.... and my mind goes blank. I can't remember my lines, but I don't dare open my eyes to try to check the script, since I've already started the blessing.

I end up mostly just pouring out my heart in asking God to please bless my sister with healing and relief of pain. I don't think I invoked the right words to 'command' healing 'by the power of Greyskull' or whatever, I just humbled myself knowing I was 100% unworthy to ask God for anything, but asking any and begging for his intervention for healing and relief.

My sister tells me afterwards the pain is still horrible but has retreated to be bearable; she is even able to sleep in fits and spurts through the rest of the night, then I drive her to her operation the next day, which is a success. I'm still very grateful to God that he graced us both with relief in that desperate moment.

But my point in telling that story is I look back now and see the whole 'structure' of the blessing, invoking by the correct order of wording and the application of olive oil, and I find the whole rigmarole as ridiculous and somewhat faith-destroying. God doesn't need to operate within some mystical ritual; he has the power to act whenever/wherever. And we've seen miracles worked through history by men and women and people who've never even heard of the lds church, much less have some induction to a special priesthood. And by putting so much stress on the ritualization of asking miracles (to the point where most blessings don't actually 'ask' God but rather invoke his power as if it's a given), I actually think the current understanding of priesthood can put a chokehold on our ability to act in faith, just the opposite of the way it should be.

Hopefully that didn't sound too incoherent. :)
Inspiring!
Thanks for the needed reminders of how faith works on humbly asking - pleading with - God. Awesome also how you showed such empathy, compassion and love for your sister. Those are good ingredients too.

As a woman, I don’t have the priesthood but I have enormous love for my kids & I think motherhood involves some inherent intuition and grace. Each of my kids seemed to go through a stage of nightmares at night - but they all passed within a few months or so & were fine, except one who kept having nightmares. He had them so extreme that he’d get up and be in a different state of mind - not himself - like he was in terror. It scared me each time but I did my best to calm him down & it usually worked. But I sensed something more than just a nightmares stage was going on. I thought & prayed about it & then said Christ’s prayer - focusing on “deliver us from evil” and I sensed an evil spirit that didn’t want to leave & kind of threw a fit but was obligated to leave & left.

In yoga, I learned of a faith-promoting metaphysical exercise. You imagine your hands (or even a godly ball of light) are full of healing energy… I taught my son to notice when you put your hands flat together & then slowly move them away & closer to each other - you can FEEL the energy. Then, sometimes when he had some pain like when he was sick, he’d ask me to do that thing with my hands over his head or stomach to help him feel better & it worked.

Of course, I think these may be seen in part, as placebo faith tools. But there is some evidence to suggest the entire world is energy.
  • “If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency & vibration.” - Tesla
We have other tools too like mind-body connection, affirmations, meditations, besides obvious healthy diet, exercise, sleep, and fasting. Personally I believe that psych-ology (study of the soul, & correcting mistaken stories we tell ourselves) is inseparable to spirituality and partly to physical health.

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Re: Is Priesthood Even a Thing?

Post by Thinker »

Fred wrote: January 25th, 2023, 11:10 pmThe first time that anyone administers to a sick person that is healed, is likely NOT due to faith. As with any good parent, some requests will be granted just for the asking. They may not be granted if not asked for, however.

Miracles can be performed by men or women without Priesthood authority or even faith, depending on God's will.

Priesthood certainly does not guarantee that God will comply with a request.
Good points, Fred.
I appreciate how you implied the need to at least ask God. Maybe the answer is no, but maybe - & I’ve experienced this before - God is just waiting for us to ask & THEN will step in and work wonders!

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Re: Is Priesthood Even a Thing?

Post by Dusty Wanderer »

Niemand wrote: January 26th, 2023, 4:22 am Many of the things which the LDS ascribe to the "priesthood" are explained by the Holy Ghost elsewhere.
You've touched on a few things that I've also thought about. I find it more and more difficult to differentiate priesthood "power" from simply the gifts (and/or fruits) of the Spirit. I'd welcome any observable distinction that I'm missing, though.
Niemand wrote: January 26th, 2023, 4:22 am Not at all. After all in the Mormon church you're not allowed to say the Lord's Prayer in a service like many other churches do, but you have to recite the sacrament prayers over and over until the wording is perfect and can only do blessings according to a set formula.
You bring up a good point here. I've also wondered if we're too literal about the recitation of the sacrament prayers. What if the sacrament prayer is valid as long as it is wrapped with the correct appellations and contains the appropriate directives, which are more there to teach us how we should approach the ordinance and what we should expect from it with the right heart/intent? This approach would be consistent with how we treat the Lord's Prayer, which we only use as a type/template or an example of content and wrapping. Should we be looking at the sacrament prayers the same way as we do the Lord's Prayer?
Are we expected to believe early Christians had access to olive oil at all times? Particularly outside the places where olives were grown?
Seriously. Unless I'm mistaken, olives weren't even indigenous to the Americas. What would be the equivalent in properties over here -- avocado oil... coconut oil?

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Luke
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Re: Is Priesthood Even a Thing?

Post by Luke »

Because… miracles don’t require Priesthood.

The ordinances (e.g. baptism) require Priesthood, but miracles (e.g. healings) require faith alone.

If anyone can prove otherwise from a Scriptural standpoint please do so.

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Re: Is Priesthood Even a Thing?

Post by blitzinstripes »

Thinker wrote: January 26th, 2023, 10:34 am
Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 25th, 2023, 10:22 pm I'll also give a personal example.

About 2 years ago, my sister the night before an operation to remove a tumor from her intestines was in excruciating pain. I mean unspeakable pain; she couldn't take it and lunged for a gun to take her own life because of how much pain she was in (my brother in law and I had to restrain her from her suicide attempts). Because of the operation the next day, she couldn't have anything to diminish her pain.

It's 3 am and there's literally no one I can call for help, I'm waiting the night through and watching her suffer is killing me. I should add that at that point I was a jack mormon, but still TBM, I didn't have the doubts and knowledge that I do now.

She asks me to give her a blessing, which terrifies me. I've never given a blessing; I don't know how. She knows I have the priesthood (if it exists at all, which I strongly doubt, but I didn't back then). I want anyone else to do it but me; I know I'm not worthy, I don't know how to do it, etc. But it's the middle of the night and I can't reach anyone who I think would have 'real' authority to do such a thing. My brother in law is there, but he's even more jack mormon than me and I don't even know if he ever got the priesthood at all.

I finally reach a friend in my ward, but he's in another state and can't help. He calms me down and assures me I can do this, gives me instructions. The mini prayer to consecrate the oil, he tells me the structure of how a healing blessing should work, I'm writing it all down because I can't remember the exact layout of the words and I know I'm going to screw it up.

It takes me a half hour to try to work up the courage, I'm spending most of this time trying to 'remember my lines' as if this is all some kind of magic spell or something (ridiculous in hindsight, but this is the culture the ldscorp engenders imo), worried that I'll overstep my authority and 'overpromise' something that the Lord won't back up. Figuring in that I'd darn well better include escape clauses like 'if you have the faith to be healed' (so that if the poor suffering recipient isn't healed, then it must be their own damn fault) and 'if the Lord wills' so I can give myself an out if nothing happens. Standard lds blessing protocol that I've heard in numerous other blessings.

Then I finally muster the courage.... and my mind goes blank. I can't remember my lines, but I don't dare open my eyes to try to check the script, since I've already started the blessing.

I end up mostly just pouring out my heart in asking God to please bless my sister with healing and relief of pain. I don't think I invoked the right words to 'command' healing 'by the power of Greyskull' or whatever, I just humbled myself knowing I was 100% unworthy to ask God for anything, but asking any and begging for his intervention for healing and relief.

My sister tells me afterwards the pain is still horrible but has retreated to be bearable; she is even able to sleep in fits and spurts through the rest of the night, then I drive her to her operation the next day, which is a success. I'm still very grateful to God that he graced us both with relief in that desperate moment.

But my point in telling that story is I look back now and see the whole 'structure' of the blessing, invoking by the correct order of wording and the application of olive oil, and I find the whole rigmarole as ridiculous and somewhat faith-destroying. God doesn't need to operate within some mystical ritual; he has the power to act whenever/wherever. And we've seen miracles worked through history by men and women and people who've never even heard of the lds church, much less have some induction to a special priesthood. And by putting so much stress on the ritualization of asking miracles (to the point where most blessings don't actually 'ask' God but rather invoke his power as if it's a given), I actually think the current understanding of priesthood can put a chokehold on our ability to act in faith, just the opposite of the way it should be.

Hopefully that didn't sound too incoherent. :)
Inspiring!
Thanks for the needed reminders of how faith works on humbly asking - pleading with - God. Awesome also how you showed such empathy, compassion and love for your sister. Those are good ingredients too.

As a woman, I don’t have the priesthood but I have enormous love for my kids & I think motherhood involves some inherent intuition and grace. Each of my kids seemed to go through a stage of nightmares at night - but they all passed within a few months or so & were fine, except one who kept having nightmares. He had them so extreme that he’d get up and be in a different state of mind - not himself - like he was in terror. It scared me each time but I did my best to calm him down & it usually worked. But I sensed something more than just a nightmares stage was going on. I thought & prayed about it & then said Christ’s prayer - focusing on “deliver us from evil” and I sensed an evil spirit that didn’t want to leave & kind of threw a fit but was obligated to leave & left.

In yoga, I learned of a faith-promoting metaphysical exercise. You imagine your hands (or even a godly ball of light) are full of healing energy… I taught my son to notice when you put your hands flat together & then slowly move them away & closer to each other - you can FEEL the energy. Then, sometimes when he had some pain like when he was sick, he’d ask me to do that thing with my hands over his head or stomach to help him feel better & it worked.

Of course, I think these may be seen in part, as placebo faith tools. But there is some evidence to suggest the entire world is energy.
  • “If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency & vibration.” - Tesla
We have other tools too like mind-body connection, affirmations, meditations, besides obvious healthy diet, exercise, sleep, and fasting. Personally I believe that psych-ology (study of the soul, & correcting mistaken stories we tell ourselves) is inseparable to spirituality and partly to physical health.
I have been blessed with the spiritual gift of healing and it has been confirmed many times. I was also taught/ instructed in some things in this regard by my grandfather, who actually didn't convert to LDS until much later in life. One of my brothers was also taught these things. Some portions of the gift seem to be hereditary and run in families and are passed down generationally. Too much to get into here, that's probably a topic for another thread. But I agree with much of what you said. Energy and vibration is key, and while past generations may not have fully understood this (nor our own), they had a better knowledge of how to tap into, and harness it for good.

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Re: Is Priesthood Even a Thing?

Post by Niemand »

Luke wrote: January 26th, 2023, 12:40 pm Because… miracles don’t require Priesthood.

The ordinances (e.g. baptism) require Priesthood, but miracles (e.g. healings) require faith alone.

If anyone can prove otherwise from a Scriptural standpoint please do so.
Agreed:

Mark 16.17 - faith nor ordination
these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues
Luke 9.49-50 - another character working miracles who did not go through the formal application process
John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

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Re: Is Priesthood Even a Thing?

Post by Niemand »

Dusty Wanderer wrote: January 26th, 2023, 10:55 am You've touched on a few things that I've also thought about. I find it more and more difficult to differentiate priesthood "power" from simply the gifts (and/or fruits) of the Spirit. I'd welcome any observable distinction that I'm missing, though.
The LDS view "priesthood" as a) a structure and b) some kind of "Force" like Star Wars (!) that the user can direct.

Usually I'd say this was not the case but I mentioned elsewhere that I stopped a severe electrical storm by praying and invoking priesthood. I would never pretend that I could repeat this on demand or that I was some kind of superman. But there are some Mormons who act as if this were the case!
You bring up a good point here. I've also wondered if we're too literal about the recitation of the sacrament prayers. What if the sacrament prayer is valid as long as it is wrapped with the correct appellations and contains the appropriate directives, which are more there to teach us how we should approach the ordinance and what we should expect from it with the right heart/intent? This approach would be consistent with how we treat the Lord's Prayer, which we only use as a type/template or an example of content and wrapping. Should we be looking at the sacrament prayers the same way as we do the Lord's Prayer?
My (honorary) aunt died in 2019 in hospital and when she was on her way out, her daughter got her to say the Lord's Prayer. Her mind was going but at least she could say that. Sometimes that's useful. She wasn't a member but she was a Christian and I believe she is in a better place.

I've sat in a chapel hearing the sacrament prayer three or four times. Like you say, what does it matter if it is "wrapped with the correct appellations and contains the appropriate directives" as you say? The intent I believe is a key point, both for the person blessing it and those receiving.



Are we expected to believe early Christians had access to olive oil at all times? Particularly outside the places where olives were grown?
Seriously. Unless I'm mistaken, olives weren't even indigenous to the Americas. What would be the equivalent in properties over here -- avocado oil... coconut oil?
[/quote]

Exactly. Olives are grown in the US all the time now, but were probably hard to get hold of in a lot of places pre-1900, let alone pre-1500.

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