Secret Blood Oaths of CCP, Masons, Jesuits, Mafia, ...and Mormons?

For discussion of secret combinations (political, economic, spiritual, religious, etc.) (Ether 8:18-25.)
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Chip
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Re: Secret Blood Oaths of CCP, Masons, Jesuits, Mafia, ...and Mormons?

Post by Chip »

....Another detail to the story above about NEVER revealing the temple stuff....

He told us that this whole thing was so emotional that the other young men in the endowment were crying and very distraught. My take is that this whole thing was tantamount to trauma programming, though it was probably not the exact intent of the temple workers that day. They were really going to make an impression on these missionaries, though.

It's funny how I remember his presentation so well, after all these years, and after joining the church, myself. I remember this guy's name, too. It was Neal Humphrey. I just did a search and there are a lot of Neal/Neil Humphreys out there. He and his wife had young kids at the time.

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TheDuke
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Re: Secret Blood Oaths of CCP, Masons, Jesuits, Mafia, ...and Mormons?

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I don't recall anyone crying or anything like that. I had to travel all the way to Utah from NY to get my endowments right before mission. there were a lot of us kids. It was as I recall, confusing, and maybe a let down. But, no one I know was traumatized in any way or distraught. Maybe, focus on areas or aspects you have real experience with. This one seems a no-op to me. Cannot say about the other groups (Jesuits, etc...).

BTW it took me many years and even some input from Alaris on this forum to understand the real purpose of the endowment. I have stated many times since on this forum that until you know what the purpose of the endowment is, everything about it makes no sense at all. Not that all the teachings are suspect, I mean the entire concept of being endowed with power. Joseph did his best with what he had to work with and the time he had, very little I might add.

Christianity and even Mormonism (said Mormon - I'm bad) up until this time only taught publicly (or openly or in groups vs. individuals like Jesus did to his 12) salvation, getting into the CK or returning to god or becoming a joint heir with Christ. None taught exaltation or real meaning of eternal life (i.e. to become god or like god). All other religions, including Mormonism with BoM until late 1830's or early 1840's only taught salvation, (returning to god, singing to him, being his servant or lacky, but never being like him). Nor did they teach about god once being like man. So, now Joseph as a brief period to come up with a way to teach about exaltation. And he cannot do it in the wide open. He needs the temple (as he understood it anyway, not saying he was wrong either). So, he tries to show how man goes from entering the Celestial (salvation) to becoming god (having Celestial offspring and then bringing to pass their immortality and eternal life).

His approach are the new temple ordinances: He does this by showing how we are taught good-and-evil in this life. How, we are baptized with water and Holy Ghost and obtain the Celestial by passing leaving the Celestial (spirit world) as innocent, living this Telestial and overcoming self. Then passing through the Terrestrial where we learn more to the Celestial. There we are taught a few more things but along the way become "endowed with power". What power? The power to know god, to eternal life, to comprehend god (to know god is after all eternal life in one sense). Then when endowed with power you may enter into eternal marriage. Which Joseph re-coins as the ultimate "new and everlasting covenant". He does this by using baptism for dead and washings and anointing that existed and adding the endowment and marriage/sealing. It is unfortunate that he never had the space outside of the little 9x14 room or ability to work out kinks to tell the story better before he died and left poor Brigham to sort it out best he could.

One could ask why the oaths and why Joseph was so preoccupied with withholding all this until the temple was complete, with only a few exceptions? What ever it was, was so important to Joseph that he held it back, perhaps seemingly too long. but, it was sacred enough for him to take that risk. Why not something in the endowment to present that level of sacredness or secret if you will? Else, Joseph could have just done it for all in Nauvoo, or out on the lawn like the conferences.

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Chip
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Re: Secret Blood Oaths of CCP, Masons, Jesuits, Mafia, ...and Mormons?

Post by Chip »

TheDuke wrote: January 10th, 2023, 6:18 pm I don't recall anyone crying or anything like that. I had to travel all the way to Utah from NY to get my endowments right before mission. there were a lot of us kids. It was as I recall, confusing, and maybe a let down. But, no one I know was traumatized in any way or distraught. Maybe, focus on areas or aspects you have real experience with. This one seems a no-op to me. Cannot say about the other groups (Jesuits, etc...).

BTW it took me many years and even some input from Alaris on this forum to understand the real purpose of the endowment. I have stated many times since on this forum that until you know what the purpose of the endowment is, everything about it makes no sense at all. Not that all the teachings are suspect, I mean the entire concept of being endowed with power. Joseph did his best with what he had to work with and the time he had, very little I might add.

Christianity and even Mormonism (said Mormon - I'm bad) up until this time only taught publicly (or openly or in groups vs. individuals like Jesus did to his 12) salvation, getting into the CK or returning to god or becoming a joint heir with Christ. None taught exaltation or real meaning of eternal life (i.e. to become god or like god). All other religions, including Mormonism with BoM until late 1830's or early 1840's only taught salvation, (returning to god, singing to him, being his servant or lacky, but never being like him). Nor did they teach about god once being like man. So, now Joseph as a brief period to come up with a way to teach about exaltation. And he cannot do it in the wide open. He needs the temple (as he understood it anyway, not saying he was wrong either). So, he tries to show how man goes from entering the Celestial (salvation) to becoming god (having Celestial offspring and then bringing to pass their immortality and eternal life).

His approach are the new temple ordinances: He does this by showing how we are taught good-and-evil in this life. How, we are baptized with water and Holy Ghost and obtain the Celestial by passing leaving the Celestial (spirit world) as innocent, living this Telestial and overcoming self. Then passing through the Terrestrial where we learn more to the Celestial. There we are taught a few more things but along the way become "endowed with power". What power? The power to know god, to eternal life, to comprehend god (to know god is after all eternal life in one sense). Then when endowed with power you may enter into eternal marriage. Which Joseph re-coins as the ultimate "new and everlasting covenant". He does this by using baptism for dead and washings and anointing that existed and adding the endowment and marriage/sealing. It is unfortunate that he never had the space outside of the little 9x14 room or ability to work out kinks to tell the story better before he died and left poor Brigham to sort it out best he could.

One could ask why the oaths and why Joseph was so preoccupied with withholding all this until the temple was complete, with only a few exceptions? What ever it was, was so important to Joseph that he held it back, perhaps seemingly too long. but, it was sacred enough for him to take that risk. Why not something in the endowment to present that level of sacredness or secret if you will? Else, Joseph could have just done it for all in Nauvoo, or out on the lawn like the conferences.

Thank you for explaining all this, Duke. I am not sure what to think about it all. I know Christ said his gospel was simple and he warned against modifications. And I know that in most religions, there have been guru types who promised people higher levels of enlightennent. Not sure what to make of it all. I like your explanation, anyway.

Whatever the esoteric purpose of the temple is, the church doesn't seem to articulate much about it. They just turn the crank and paint it out to be what all of us should be doing. I have been dozens of times, but haven't felt it to be extraordinary, as advertised. Yes, it's clean and there are nice people there and the endowment has some interesting aspects, but I don't get much from it. It's kind of like a club with members.

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Niemand
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Re: Secret Blood Oaths of CCP, Masons, Jesuits, Mafia, ...and Mormons?

Post by Niemand »

Chip wrote: January 10th, 2023, 9:38 pm Whatever the esoteric purpose of the temple is, the church doesn't seem to articulate much about it. They just turn the crank and paint it out to be what all of us should be doing. I have been dozens of times, but haven't felt it to be extraordinary, as advertised. Yes, it's clean and there are nice people there and the endowment has some interesting aspects, but I don't get much from it. It's kind of like a club with members.
I have a good friend who is a Mason who has had the three degrees. He thinks they are a preparation for death. The endowment has some significant differences but some of it seems to be along the same lines.

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TheDuke
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Re: Secret Blood Oaths of CCP, Masons, Jesuits, Mafia, ...and Mormons?

Post by TheDuke »

Chip: I agree with churches lack of clarity, but it is because they are mostly clueless, IMO.

Jesus also said that all prophets looked forward to the last dispensation when much more truth would be revealed.

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Sarah
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Re: Secret Blood Oaths of CCP, Masons, Jesuits, Mafia, ...and Mormons?

Post by Sarah »

Niemand wrote: January 11th, 2023, 7:50 am
Chip wrote: January 10th, 2023, 9:38 pm Whatever the esoteric purpose of the temple is, the church doesn't seem to articulate much about it. They just turn the crank and paint it out to be what all of us should be doing. I have been dozens of times, but haven't felt it to be extraordinary, as advertised. Yes, it's clean and there are nice people there and the endowment has some interesting aspects, but I don't get much from it. It's kind of like a club with members.
I have a good friend who is a Mason who has had the three degrees. He thinks they are a preparation for death. The endowment has some significant differences but some of it seems to be along the same lines.
That makes sense because doesn't it come from an Egyptian burial ceremony?

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Enoch
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Re: Secret Blood Oaths of CCP, Masons, Jesuits, Mafia, ...and Mormons?

Post by Enoch »

Acts 17

24The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human hands. 25Nor is He served by human hands, as if He needed anything, because He Himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.

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Niemand
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Re: Secret Blood Oaths of CCP, Masons, Jesuits, Mafia, ...and Mormons?

Post by Niemand »

Sarah wrote: January 11th, 2023, 11:36 am That makes sense because doesn't it come from an Egyptian burial ceremony?
Masons like to claim roots in Bible times and Ancient Egypt, but it's difficult to trace them back earlier than the Middle Ages in reality .

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Sarah
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Re: Secret Blood Oaths of CCP, Masons, Jesuits, Mafia, ...and Mormons?

Post by Sarah »

Niemand wrote: January 11th, 2023, 5:04 pm
Sarah wrote: January 11th, 2023, 11:36 am That makes sense because doesn't it come from an Egyptian burial ceremony?
Masons like to claim roots in Bible times and Ancient Egypt, but it's difficult to trace them back earlier than the Middle Ages in reality .
I was thinking of Nibley's "Egyptian Endowment." It's been a very long time since I read it, but basically the Egyptian "funerals" or burials for their royalty would involve anointing them to become Kings and Queens in the next life, etc. Joseph was able to receive revelation about the true endowment after obtaining the Egyptian documents. And since we have a quote saying that Masonry is apostate Endowment....

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TheDuke
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Re: Secret Blood Oaths of CCP, Masons, Jesuits, Mafia, ...and Mormons?

Post by TheDuke »

I reread one of NIbley's books a few weeks ago. Now, in this century we can actually follow up his references on the Internet. While I like some or many of his conclusions, I feel his logic is ok, I found his references and claims to historic writings, very, very weak. I will not accept them at face value any more.

For previous post, I don't feel Egypt had any thing like our endowment any more than I would accept Nibley's comments of prayers in a circle around a priest to be true order of pray.... I mean ever seen a movie with a Satanic cult, always in a circle, before microphones, circles were useful. IMO

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Re: Secret Blood Oaths of CCP, Masons, Jesuits, Mafia, ...and Mormons?

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

bbrown wrote: January 8th, 2023, 12:12 pm I was at a stake conference where renlund was installing a new stake presidency sometime in 2016. The 70 spent the whole weekend repeating that to sustain was to make an oath and a covenant to do the will of the sustained “their will becomes your will” “their ideas you ideas” and on and on. Renlund gave his approval and in his final talk of the weekend repeated 3 times in a row that to sustain a leader (any leader) is an oath and covenant to do as the leader instructs no matter what. He closed with it again. That was the last straw for me. That stuff is forbidden.
I’m a little late to the game here. What. In. The. …………….
People, are you not awake?

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Re: Secret Blood Oaths of CCP, Masons, Jesuits, Mafia, ...and Mormons?

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: January 10th, 2023, 4:15 pm
Chip wrote: January 8th, 2023, 2:38 am
This business of swearing an oath before the terms are known and agreeing to having your throat slit from ear-to-ear and your bowels cut out was also part of the temple endowment up until about 1990.

I just don't see how this all comports with ANY scripture that is in support of what God wants.

This is just not true. In those days the covenant said that you would "rather" be killed than give up the information. it never said that would happen if you gave it up. It was trying to explain the importance and level of sacredness. Also, it was only after you were taught the principle, not w/o knowing. It is a load of crap to call this "blood oaths".

I will admit, I didn't much care for it. But, I suppose as opposed to those today that don't take their covenants any more seriously than the allegiance to the great uncle's fraternity, it might have been necessary, after all.

Many perhaps most on FF that have had their endowments and are on FF, have no regard for their covenants. Whether or not they any longer believe them, they don't believe them, most never did apparently. God gives a promise of great value, and people toss it out the window because some leadership moron says to get vaxed or pay tithes. If those truly understood that if they live those covenants god is bound and the reward is received, then the value of secrecy would be more obvious.

Was again reading Mark 4:11 where Jesus says he speaks in parables or hides the truth so some weaker would not find the truths and be converted. I suppose Jesus was speaking in parables to keep truths secret, while allowing true seekers to find them.

Anyway, I'm a bit offended by Chip making this statement of what happened before 1990. Perhaps you weren't there, or have a bad memory? But you called the covenant and obligation of secrecy wrongly in the OP.
I’m leaving the church in order to me to keep my covenants with Christ to follow His gospel. The most basic and foundational doctrines are distorted and even blatantly contradicted. Obviously we don’t see eye-to-eye as to why, but just know that each of us have our reasons.

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Re: Secret Blood Oaths of CCP, Masons, Jesuits, Mafia, ...and Mormons?

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: January 11th, 2023, 10:59 am Chip: I agree with churches lack of clarity, but it is because they are mostly clueless, IMO.

Jesus also said that all prophets looked forward to the last dispensation when much more truth would be revealed.
I’m almost positive that this “more truth” you are referring to will not come from the LDS church hierarchy.

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TheDuke
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Re: Secret Blood Oaths of CCP, Masons, Jesuits, Mafia, ...and Mormons?

Post by TheDuke »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 11th, 2023, 7:12 pm
TheDuke wrote: January 11th, 2023, 10:59 am Chip: I agree with churches lack of clarity, but it is because they are mostly clueless, IMO.

Jesus also said that all prophets looked forward to the last dispensation when much more truth would be revealed.
I’m almost positive that this “more truth” you are referring to will not come from the LDS church hierarchy.
Not nearly as positive as I am that you are wrong........ it came from Joseph early on and is here........... I don't think anything has or will come after Joseph............... their just holding to reigns.

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Re: Secret Blood Oaths of CCP, Masons, Jesuits, Mafia, ...and Mormons?

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: January 11th, 2023, 7:23 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 11th, 2023, 7:12 pm
TheDuke wrote: January 11th, 2023, 10:59 am Chip: I agree with churches lack of clarity, but it is because they are mostly clueless, IMO.

Jesus also said that all prophets looked forward to the last dispensation when much more truth would be revealed.
I’m almost positive that this “more truth” you are referring to will not come from the LDS church hierarchy.
Not nearly as positive as I am that you are wrong........ it came from Joseph early on and is here........... I don't think anything has or will come after Joseph............... their just holding to reigns.
Yes, Joseph revealed truth… and then the church turned away from much of what he taught, or distorted a majority of it. The church has not advanced, they have digressed. And that digression is increasing.

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Sarah
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Re: Secret Blood Oaths of CCP, Masons, Jesuits, Mafia, ...and Mormons?

Post by Sarah »

TheDuke wrote: January 11th, 2023, 6:54 pm I reread one of NIbley's books a few weeks ago. Now, in this century we can actually follow up his references on the Internet. While I like some or many of his conclusions, I feel his logic is ok, I found his references and claims to historic writings, very, very weak. I will not accept them at face value any more.

For previous post, I don't feel Egypt had any thing like our endowment any more than I would accept Nibley's comments of prayers in a circle around a priest to be true order of pray.... I mean ever seen a movie with a Satanic cult, always in a circle, before microphones, circles were useful. IMO
Probably a reason satanic cults do it that way. I wasn't implying that the Egyptians had it right. But they would be in the same category of the satanic cult who had the form just not doing it with Christ's authority or blessing. So you weren't impressed with the connection he made with the hypocephalus?

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Re: Secret Blood Oaths of CCP, Masons, Jesuits, Mafia, ...and Mormons?

Post by Ferrisbueller »

Light Seeker wrote: January 8th, 2023, 7:33 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 8th, 2023, 1:39 pm Ether 8:19 is a bit vexing, in that God purportedly commanded Nephi to spill Laban’s blood by, you know, chopping of his head.
Interesting parallel . Could you flesh out a little bit more of where you are leaning with that observation ?
He calls Laman and Lemuel robbers. All three were part of a secret combo

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