One Who is Watching, Taylor Drake, and John P. Pratt - a Proposed Study

[BigT]

I’m familiar with the ancient scapegoat intercessory offering, but hadn’t heard about Joseph and Sydney performing a similar ceremony with the two of them. Do you have any material on this that you can point me to?

As for your comment here, it impacted me. As I imagined the remaining believers in the New Covenant, wherever they may be, uniting under a common banner, I was filled with hope. Wouldn’t that be something to be a part of. I’m still on the fence about the return of Sydney and Joseph to fill this role, probably don’t understand it well enough or something, but the reality of it would be quite moving.

Here is one post:
https://onewhoiswatching.wordpress.com/ ... -yet-told/
Just type “scapegoat” into search this blog and you’ll find a lot more.

[logonbump]

He believes that he was an intercessory prophet just as Moses was. They both interceded on behalf of the saints and staved off judgement by having the sins of Israel placed upon them. The sins they both committed were actually the fault of those they were leading.

So there are actual fallen prophets and then there are intercessory prophets who only look like fallen prophets.

In all actuality, an intercessory prophet is a higher tier than a prophet, so in a way, he views Joseph higher than the lds people do.

To complete that thought, I also learned from Watcher that Joseph took part in an intercessory offering like the Hebrews performed with two goats. One had Israel's sins heaped upon it and was sacrificed and another was driven into the wilderness.. or do I have that wrong?

Joseph seemingly at the end of his life didn't model an ideal leader. He may have willingly took upon himself the sins of his people or at least credit for their sins.
This act would precede his death if he was the intercessory offering- but which of the two rams was he if it was done in the type of the Hebrews' animal offering?

Sidney Rigdon, the Lord’s Spokesman, was allowed to escape. Joseph and Sidney who hold the keys of the kingdom (D&C 90:2-3,6) shall return. Will the blind leaders in SLC, Independence, and other branches of the restoration knowingly allow them to lead the scattered saints (D&C 101:43-62; 103:21)?

I’m familiar with the ancient scapegoat intercessory offering, but hadn’t heard about Joseph and Sydney performing a similar ceremony with the two of them. Do you have any material on this that you can point me to?

As for your comment here, it impacted me. As I imagined the remaining believers in the New Covenant, wherever they may be, uniting under a common banner, I was filled with hope. Wouldn’t that be something to be a part of. I’m still on the fence about the return of Sydney and Joseph to fill this role, probably don’t understand it well enough or something, but the reality of it would be quite moving.

Yes, very moving. And a type of the sacrifice of the savior. Joseph did say "I go like a lamb to the slaughter," upon his surrender to the law preceding his death.
Watcher explains quite a bit in his book, Solving the Prophet Puzzle, link to audio chapters here on YouTube:
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLVdB ... 2cHAP0KvqB

[CaptainM]

endlessQuestions here is a Youtube presentation by Taylor Drake and Chris Hubbard:
The Hidden History That Will Change Your Mormon Paradigm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGpzaLNVnls&t=4s

This should give you a good idea of the personalities and spirituality of both men. I understand that they've had a falling out since, which is sad because I like them both. I think Taylor's strong suit is that he is good at condensing and making concise Chris Hubbard's long drawn out original research.

You're confusing Chirs with Watcher. Chris Hubbard or MD of the Measuring Doctrine blog has only recently come on the scene. Watcher is the one whose work has been around for 20 years or so. They both came across Watcher's work and simply parroted everything he has been saying.

Taylor Drake is good at condensing Watcher's material, but that doesn't change the fact that everything in his book is all Watcher's work. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that is the reason for the rift between them. I wouldn't be happy with my work being plagiarized.

Watcher is a true student and teacher of the scriptures and knows and follows the signs of the times.

Taylor and Chris know the signs of the times well enough to get fully vaccinated, that's how much light is in those two clowns.

Great synopsis Shawn. I get the feeling that Searcher and MD couldn't altogether handle some of the insights of Watcher, e.g., the death shots, RLDS, etc.

What are some of his insights concerning RLDS that they would’ve had a hard time with? Or any of his insights concerning RLDS? I’ve read some of his stuff, but can’t say I’ve Come across those yet. Thanks.

Here is some material to get you started on. If you follow it to the end, there will be a link for part 2, etc.

https://onewhoiswatching.wordpress.com/ ... __trashed/

[GeeR]

endlessQuestions here is a Youtube presentation by Taylor Drake and Chris Hubbard:
The Hidden History That Will Change Your Mormon Paradigm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGpzaLNVnls&t=4s

This should give you a good idea of the personalities and spirituality of both men. I understand that they've had a falling out since, which is sad because I like them both. I think Taylor's strong suit is that he is good at condensing and making concise Chris Hubbard's long drawn out original research.

You're confusing Chirs with Watcher. Chris Hubbard or MD of the Measuring Doctrine blog has only recently come on the scene. Watcher is the one whose work has been around for 20 years or so. They both came across Watcher's work and simply parroted everything he has been saying.

Taylor Drake is good at condensing Watcher's material, but that doesn't change the fact that everything in his book is all Watcher's work. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that is the reason for the rift between them. I wouldn't be happy with my work being plagiarized.

Watcher is a true student and teacher of the scriptures and knows and follows the signs of the times.

Taylor and Chris know the signs of the times well enough to get fully vaccinated, that's how much light is in those two clowns.

Now I am confused, I was pretty sure Chris Hubbard MD was Watcher. You're sure about Watcher not being Chris, huh?!

[CaptainM]

He believes that he was an intercessory prophet just as Moses was. They both interceded on behalf of the saints and staved off judgement by having the sins of Israel placed upon them. The sins they both committed were actually the fault of those they were leading.

So there are actual fallen prophets and then there are intercessory prophets who only look like fallen prophets.

In all actuality, an intercessory prophet is a higher tier than a prophet, so in a way, he views Joseph higher than the lds people do.

To complete that thought, I also learned from Watcher that Joseph took part in an intercessory offering like the Hebrews performed with two goats. One had Israel's sins heaped upon it and was sacrificed and another was driven into the wilderness.. or do I have that wrong?

Joseph seemingly at the end of his life didn't model an ideal leader. He may have willingly took upon himself the sins of his people or at least credit for their sins.
This act would precede his death if he was the intercessory offering- but which of the two rams was he if it was done in the type of the Hebrews' animal offering?

Sidney Rigdon, the Lord’s Spokesman, was allowed to escape. Joseph and Sidney who hold the keys of the kingdom (D&C 90:2-3,6) shall return. Will the blind leaders in SLC, Independence, and other branches of the restoration knowingly allow them to lead the scattered saints (D&C 101:43-62; 103:21)?

I’m familiar with the ancient scapegoat intercessory offering, but hadn’t heard about Joseph and Sydney performing a similar ceremony with the two of them. Do you have any material on this that you can point me to?

As for your comment here, it impacted me. As I imagined the remaining believers in the New Covenant, wherever they may be, united under a common banner, I was filled with hope. Wouldn’t that be something to be a part of. I’m still on the fence about the return of Sydney and Joseph to fill this role, probably don’t understand it well enough or something, but the reality of it would be quite moving.

This may answer some wonderings. Let me know if I can help further.
https://youtu.be/_5B0Xe3UPS4

[Dusty Wanderer]

You're confusing Chirs with Watcher. Chris Hubbard or MD of the Measuring Doctrine blog has only recently come on the scene. Watcher is the one whose work has been around for 20 years or so. They both came across Watcher's work and simply parroted everything he has been saying.

Taylor Drake is good at condensing Watcher's material, but that doesn't change the fact that everything in his book is all Watcher's work. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that is the reason for the rift between them. I wouldn't be happy with my work being plagiarized.

Watcher is a true student and teacher of the scriptures and knows and follows the signs of the times.

Taylor and Chris know the signs of the times well enough to get fully vaccinated, that's how much light is in those two clowns.

Great synopsis Shawn. I get the feeling that Searcher and MD couldn't altogether handle some of the insights of Watcher, e.g., the death shots, RLDS, etc.

What are some of his insights concerning RLDS that they would’ve had a hard time with? Or any of his insights concerning RLDS? I’ve read some of his stuff, but can’t say I’ve Come across those yet. Thanks.

Here is some material to get you started on. If you follow it to the end, there will be a link for part 2, etc.

https://onewhoiswatching.wordpress.com/ ... __trashed/

Thanks. I found part II particularly good. From my own research, I could never understand the maligning of Marks and Rigdon and others; but I feel like I’ve been getting a better picture of motivations and the overarching plot the last few years.

[CaptainM]

endlessQuestions here is a Youtube presentation by Taylor Drake and Chris Hubbard:
The Hidden History That Will Change Your Mormon Paradigm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGpzaLNVnls&t=4s

This should give you a good idea of the personalities and spirituality of both men. I understand that they've had a falling out since, which is sad because I like them both. I think Taylor's strong suit is that he is good at condensing and making concise Chris Hubbard's long drawn out original research.

You're confusing Chirs with Watcher. Chris Hubbard or MD of the Measuring Doctrine blog has only recently come on the scene. Watcher is the one whose work has been around for 20 years or so. They both came across Watcher's work and simply parroted everything he has been saying.

Taylor Drake is good at condensing Watcher's material, but that doesn't change the fact that everything in his book is all Watcher's work. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that is the reason for the rift between them. I wouldn't be happy with my work being plagiarized.

Watcher is a true student and teacher of the scriptures and knows and follows the signs of the times.

Taylor and Chris know the signs of the times well enough to get fully vaccinated, that's how much light is in those two clowns.

Now I am confused, I was pretty sure Chris Hubbard MD was Watcher. You're sure about Watcher not being Chris, huh?!

100%

[Shawn Henry]

I could never understand the maligning of Marks and Rigdon and others

Especially considering how the Lord speaks of Sidney in the D&C. No one has risen greater than John the Baptist and the Lord then compares Sidney to John. In 1842 the Lord told him that he would again lift up his voice and be a spokesman for the Lord. He will return in the third Watch.

[Shawn Henry]

Throughout scripture are references to the two great servants of the last days.

These two sons.
The two candlesticks.
The two olive trees.
The two anointed ones.
The two witnesses.
The Stay and the Staff.
The Branch and the Brand.
The two staves.
The prophet and priest.
The Seer and the Spokesman.

Who truly opened up this dispensation, did it start in 1820 with the first vision? Prior to 1820 Sidney Rigdon had spent years in Bible study and was finishing getting his preaching license. When Joseph and a hundred or so saints left New York to go to Kirtland, their numbers in Kirtland jumped up to over a thousand due to Sidney having prepared a people. He had two large congregations and his Kirtland followers almost all converted to the Book of Mormon.

From my own studies, I've concluded that Joseph represented the kingdom of Israel, the Northern Kingdom and symbolically carried the staff or stick being the head of leadership and Sidney represented the leadership head for Judah, the Southern Kingdom. When the New York saints joined with the Kirtland saints, this became a prefulfillment of their joining for good in the third watch. This is one of the meanings of the Stick of Ephraim combining with the Stick of Judah. Old Testament prophecy will be fulfilled, and these two kingdoms will have their long-awaited reunification. The two heads of these two kingdoms are the above referenced sons, olive trees, witnesses, candlesticks, etc.

[CaptainM]

Throughout scripture are references to the two great servants of the last days.

These two sons.
The two candlesticks.
The two olive trees.
The two anointed ones.
The two witnesses.
The Stay and the Staff.
The Branch and the Brand.
The two staves.
The prophet and priest.
The Seer and the Spokesman.

Who truly opened up this dispensation, did it start in 1820 with the first vision? Prior to 1820 Sidney Rigdon had spent years in Bible study and was finishing getting his preaching license. When Joseph and a hundred or so saints left New York to go to Kirtland, their numbers in Kirtland jumped up to over a thousand due to Sidney having prepared a people. He had two large congregations and his Kirtland followers almost all converted to the Book of Mormon.

From my own studies, I've concluded that Joseph represented the kingdom of Israel, the Northern Kingdom and symbolically carried the staff or stick being the head of leadership and Sidney represented the leadership head for Judah, the Southern Kingdom. When the New York saints joined with the Kirtland saints, this became a prefulfillment of their joining for good in the third watch. This is one of the meanings of the Stick of Ephraim combining with the Stick of Judah. Old Testament prophecy will be fulfilled, and these two kingdoms will have their long-awaited reunification. The two heads of these two kingdoms are the above referenced sons, olive trees, witnesses, candlesticks, etc.

Thanks Shawn. I hope you will post more on this subject in the future.

[Shawn Henry]

The Lord says of Sidney in section 124: "I, the Lord your God, will heal him". Follow the word link to 3 Nephi 21 where the Lord references a marred servant and says: "Yet I will heal him".

It is my opinion that these word links are quite purposeful.

[endlessQuestions]

endlessQuestions here is a Youtube presentation by Taylor Drake and Chris Hubbard:
The Hidden History That Will Change Your Mormon Paradigm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGpzaLNVnls&t=4s

This should give you a good idea of the personalities and spirituality of both men. I understand that they've had a falling out since, which is sad because I like them both. I think Taylor's strong suit is that he is good at condensing and making concise Chris Hubbard's long drawn out original research.

The word "Hidden" in their title caught my attention.

Here are all the uses of the word "hidden" in the Standard Works:

Leviticus 5:2 Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle, or the carcase of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from him; he also shall be unclean, and guilty.

Deuteronomy 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

Job 3:16 Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light.

Job 15:20 The wicked man travaileth with pain all his days, and the number of years is hidden to the oppressor.

Job 24:1 Why, seeing times are not hidden from the Almighty, do they that know him not see his days?

Psalms 51:6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

Psalms 83:3 They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones.

Proverbs 28:12 When righteous men do rejoice, there is great glory: but when the wicked rise, a man is hidden.

Isaiah 45:3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the Lord, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.

Isaiah 48:6 Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.

Obadiah 1:6 How are the things of Esau searched out! how are his hidden things sought up!

Acts 26:26 For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; for this thing was not done in a corner.

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

2 Corinthians 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

1 Peter 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

1 Nephi 20:6 Thou hast seen and heard all this; and will ye not declare them? And that I have showed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.

2 Nephi 3:5 Wherefore, Joseph truly saw our day. And he obtained a promise of the Lord, that out of the fruit of his loins the Lord God would raise up a righteous branch unto the house of Israel; not the Messiah, but a branch which was to be broken off, nevertheless, to be remembered in the covenants of the Lord that the Messiah should be made manifest unto them in the latter days, in the spirit of power, unto the bringing of them out of darkness unto light--yea, out of hidden darkness and out of captivity unto freedom.

Mosiah 8:17 But a seer can know of things which are past, and also of things which are to come, and by them shall all things be revealed, or, rather, shall secret things be made manifest, and hidden things shall come to light, and things which are not known shall be made known by them, and also things shall be made known by them which otherwise could not be known.

Doctrine and Covenants 6:27 And now I command you, that if you have good desires--a desire to lay up treasures for yourself in heaven--then shall you assist in bringing to light, with your gift, those parts of my scriptures which have been hidden because of iniquity.

Doctrine and Covenants 76:7 And to them will I reveal all mysteries, yea, all the hidden mysteries of my kingdom from days of old, and for ages to come, will I make known unto them the good pleasure of my will concerning all things pertaining to my kingdom.

Doctrine and Covenants 77:6 Q. What are we to understand by the book which John saw, which was sealed on the back with seven seals? A. We are to understand that it contains the revealed will, mysteries, and the works of God; the hidden things of his economy concerning this earth during the seven thousand years of its continuance, or its temporal existence.

Doctrine and Covenants 89:19 And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;

Doctrine and Covenants 101:33 Things which have passed, and hidden things which no man knew, things of the earth, by which it was made, and the purpose and the end thereof--

Doctrine and Covenants 123:13 Therefore, that we should waste and wear out our lives in bringing to light all the hidden things of darkness, wherein we know them; and they are truly manifest from heaven--

[Cruiserdude]

Throughout scripture are references to the two great servants of the last days.

These two sons.
The two candlesticks.
The two olive trees.
The two anointed ones.
The two witnesses.
The Stay and the Staff.
The Branch and the Brand.
The two staves.
The prophet and priest.
The Seer and the Spokesman.

Who truly opened up this dispensation, did it start in 1820 with the first vision? Prior to 1820 Sidney Rigdon had spent years in Bible study and was finishing getting his preaching license. When Joseph and a hundred or so saints left New York to go to Kirtland, their numbers in Kirtland jumped up to over a thousand due to Sidney having prepared a people. He had two large congregations and his Kirtland followers almost all converted to the Book of Mormon.

From my own studies, I've concluded that Joseph represented the kingdom of Israel, the Northern Kingdom and symbolically carried the staff or stick being the head of leadership and Sidney represented the leadership head for Judah, the Southern Kingdom. When the New York saints joined with the Kirtland saints, this became a prefulfillment of their joining for good in the third watch. This is one of the meanings of the Stick of Ephraim combining with the Stick of Judah. Old Testament prophecy will be fulfilled, and these two kingdoms will have their long-awaited reunification. The two heads of these two kingdoms are the above referenced sons, olive trees, witnesses, candlesticks, etc.

Wow, that's well put together thoughts hermano... Makes me ponder

[Dusty Wanderer]

Throughout scripture are references to the two great servants of the last days.

These two sons.
The two candlesticks.
The two olive trees.
The two anointed ones.
The two witnesses.
The Stay and the Staff.
The Branch and the Brand.
The two staves.
The prophet and priest.
The Seer and the Spokesman.

Who truly opened up this dispensation, did it start in 1820 with the first vision? Prior to 1820 Sidney Rigdon had spent years in Bible study and was finishing getting his preaching license. When Joseph and a hundred or so saints left New York to go to Kirtland, their numbers in Kirtland jumped up to over a thousand due to Sidney having prepared a people. He had two large congregations and his Kirtland followers almost all converted to the Book of Mormon.

From my own studies, I've concluded that Joseph represented the kingdom of Israel, the Northern Kingdom and symbolically carried the staff or stick being the head of leadership and Sidney represented the leadership head for Judah, the Southern Kingdom. When the New York saints joined with the Kirtland saints, this became a prefulfillment of their joining for good in the third watch. This is one of the meanings of the Stick of Ephraim combining with the Stick of Judah. Old Testament prophecy will be fulfilled, and these two kingdoms will have their long-awaited reunification. The two heads of these two kingdoms are the above referenced sons, olive trees, witnesses, candlesticks, etc.

Interesting break-down, thanks. What role will Oliver C. have, if any, in the third watch? He and Joseph seemed like brothers that never reconciled, which has always saddened me. I think he's also a man of integrity that just couldn't work in patience with the black and white implications of the things he knew about Joseph.

[CaptainM]

This MAY be of help, but we do know that Oliver was chosen of God to hold the keys as co-president of the high priesthood, and was eventually elevated above Sidney Rigdon and Frederick G. Williams in the first presidency.

https://onewhoiswatching.wordpress.com/ ... 27s+secret

[Shawn Henry]

Interesting break-down, thanks. What role will Oliver C. have, if any, in the third watch? He and Joseph seemed like brothers that never reconciled, which has always saddened me. I think he's also a man of integrity that just couldn't work in patience with the black and white implications of the things he knew about Joseph.

Only speculation of course, but as I see the puzzle pieces fitting together, Sidney will lead the Southern Kingdom, Joseph will lead the Northern Kingdom and Oliver will again be Second Elder to the Northern Kingdom.

Frederick, I suspect, will be working with Sidney. D&C 90:9 states: That through your administration they may receive the word, and through their administration the word may go forth unto the ends of the earth, unto the Gentiles first, and then, behold, and lo, they shall turn unto the Jews.

Watcher has pointed out that there are two administrations being spoken of here.

I think Joseph will receive the word, with Oliver as co-Seer and Sidney as the Spokesman will declare the word with such power that kings will shut their mouths at him, with Frederick supporting him, also declaring the word.

[simpleton]

Interesting break-down, thanks. What role will Oliver C. have, if any, in the third watch? He and Joseph seemed like brothers that never reconciled, which has always saddened me. I think he's also a man of integrity that just couldn't work in patience with the black and white implications of the things he knew about Joseph.

Only speculation of course, but as I see the puzzle pieces fitting together, Sidney will lead the Southern Kingdom, Joseph will lead the Northern Kingdom and Oliver will again be Second Elder to the Northern Kingdom.

Frederick, I suspect, will be working with Sidney. D&C 90:9 states: That through your administration they may receive the word, and through their administration the word may go forth unto the ends of the earth, unto the Gentiles first, and then, behold, and lo, they shall turn unto the Jews.

Watcher has pointed out that there are two administrations being spoken of here.

I think Joseph will receive the word, with Oliver as co-Seer and Sidney as the Spokesman will declare the word with such power that kings will shut their mouths at him, with Frederick supporting him, also declaring the word.

And then again maybe this applies to these whom you are trying to elevate:

Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?

35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—

36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

[Shawn Henry]

And then again maybe this applies to these whom you are trying to elevate

I am not trying to elevate anyone, it is the Lord who has already done that in scripture. I am simply studying what he has already said about these First Elders.

Perhaps you could read and study what we have and let it add to your perspective.

[simpleton]

And then again maybe this applies to these whom you are trying to elevate

I am not trying to elevate anyone, it is the Lord who has already done that in scripture. I am simply studying what he has already said about these First Elders.

Perhaps you could read and study what we have and let it add to your perspective.

Well in my reading, the Lord called "many" and yet some, or even many fell. And so just because of being called, even with promises, those promises are conditional upon enduring to the end.
As George A Smith stated in church in the late 1800's, "where are all those that received those great manifestations in the Kirtland Temple, where are they now, most of them fell away".
Why may we ask, because of the same ol thing, the minute mankind receives anything from God, along comes "el diablo", with as great of temptations as to the manifestations of God's Spirit. Or in other words he, "el diablo" is allowed to tempt and try us to the same extent as to the manifestation from God. He tells us we must be somebody great, to have received these things, we must need to lead, we must be put in charge, or many other ways and means of leading us astray. And most of us cannot stand it, most of us want to be somebody, most of us refuse to take a back seat. "None doeth good no not one, except, the humble followers of Jesus Christ, but in many instances they also do err because they follow the precepts of man".

[BeNotDeceived]

And then again maybe this applies to these whom you are trying to elevate

I am not trying to elevate anyone, it is the Lord who has already done that in scripture. I am simply studying what he has already said about these First Elders.

Perhaps you could read and study what we have and let it add to your perspective.

Or you could laugh hysterically about seeing some insignificant number 57 anomaly, while turning a blind eye to march8miracle.org

Wouldn’t that be grand.

[cab]

Taylor Drake and Watcher are 2 different people. Watcher has never used his real name. I listened to the Iron Rod Podcast back in the beginning when all 3 men interacted with each other: Watcher, Searcher, and MD. They are definitely different people.

I am interested in the calendars and have been following many Christian researchers who give their own ideas. Looking forward to what you might find.

If you read "Solving The Prophet Puzzle" by One Who Is Watching and "Joseph in the Gap" by Taylor Drake, I think it would be impossible to argue they're not the same person.

Unless I've completely missed the boat, and Drake extensively quotes Watcher, without using quotation marks.

For example, in both books, the authors talk about their 5 step journey of "Losing Their Innocence" and refer to their personal relationship with Claire Middlemiss as a key relationship.

Again, I could be wrong.

But I'm pretty sure I'm not.

Iron Rod Podcast 001

Searcher = Taylor Drake
MD (Measuring Doctrine) = Chris Hubbel
Watcher = still anon

They are 3 different people.

Wow.

This is very weird.

I didn't get my copy of "Solving the Prophet Puzzle" until yesterday. As I read that intro, I had already seen these stories. I must have got them off Watcher's blog.

Thanks for setting me straight!

Changing the name of the thread to reflect reality.

At least now you have a 3rd witness who is aligning with what you are concluding

[Dusty Wanderer]

And then again maybe this applies to these whom you are trying to elevate

I am not trying to elevate anyone, it is the Lord who has already done that in scripture. I am simply studying what he has already said about these First Elders.

Perhaps you could read and study what we have and let it add to your perspective.

Well in my reading, the Lord called "many" and yet some, or even many fell. And so just because of being called, even with promises, those promises are conditional upon enduring to the end.
As George A Smith stated in church in the late 1800's, "where are all those that received those great manifestations in the Kirtland Temple, where are they now, most of them fell away".
Why may we ask, because of the same ol thing, the minute mankind receives anything from God, along comes "el diablo", with as great of temptations as to the manifestations of God's Spirit. Or in other words he, "el diablo" is allowed to tempt and try us to the same extent as to the manifestation from God. He tells us we must be somebody great, to have received these things, we must need to lead, we must be put in charge, or many other ways and means of leading us astray. And most of us cannot stand it, most of us want to be somebody, most of us refuse to take a back seat. "None doeth good no not one, except, the humble followers of Jesus Christ, but in many instances they also do err because they follow the precepts of man".

I get what you're saying, but it's all predicated on how you define "fall away".

You quoted D&C 121, "when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness"

By some accounts, Joseph acknowledged some wrong-doing and sought to keep his secret plural marriage covered before his murder. You may not believe those accounts, but they're there, and would've been on the minds of many of the saints.

What about those told by Joseph to go away in different directions than BY (Strang and Wight)? Did they fall away by following-through with what they were told to do by Joseph? What about Bro. Brigham - do you not see any vain ambition in his personal/familial use of church resources? But he was still a member of the Utah church, so all is well there, right.

The saints had witnessed the First Presidency's and Nauvoo Stake Presidency's authority being usurped by the Q. Twelve. For some, the remaining structure left them wondering. Did we not see BY and the Twelve "exercising control or dominion or compulsion" against Pres. Rigdon? Why turn a blind eye to that? I think it's possible to acknowledge the crappy situation the saints were put in without turning on the Utah church.

I just think there's something more to measuring falling away than having one's name on a roster. Perhaps only the Lord can really only know, as he perceives our hearts, and knows what he's commanded us to do through His Spirit.

I feel for the saints of that time period and the more I try to understand about it, the more reserved my judgements have become.

[Shawn Henry]

Well in my reading, the Lord called "many" and yet some, or even many fell. And so just because of being called, even with promises, those promises are conditional upon enduring to the end.
As George A Smith stated in church in the late 1800's, "where are all those that received those great manifestations in the Kirtland Temple, where are they now, most of them fell away".
Why may we ask, because of the same ol thing, the minute mankind receives anything from God, along comes "el diablo", with as great of temptations as to the manifestations of God's Spirit. Or in other words he, "el diablo" is allowed to tempt and try us to the same extent as to the manifestation from God. He tells us we must be somebody great, to have received these things, we must need to lead, we must be put in charge, or many other ways and means of leading us astray. And most of us cannot stand it, most of us want to be somebody, most of us refuse to take a back seat. "None doeth good no not one, except, the humble followers of Jesus Christ, but in many instances they also do err because they follow the precepts of man".

There is no reading of scripture that would preclude Sidney and Frederick from returning to fulfill their commissions. Matter of fact, the Lord told these two they were equal with Joseph in holding the keys and that they would hold them in the world to come. He said this without any conditions. Here's a direct quote if you prefer Christ's words: " the keys of this kingdom shall never be taken from you".

It could be interpreted that Oliver's blessings were given to Hyrum, but in light of Oliver being part of the intercessory offering, I don't think that is the case.

Quoting apostate fake apostles like George A. Smith from a rejected church is not helping your case. The saints who didn't follow BY were far more in the right than those who did.

[simpleton]

Well in my reading, the Lord called "many" and yet some, or even many fell. And so just because of being called, even with promises, those promises are conditional upon enduring to the end.
As George A Smith stated in church in the late 1800's, "where are all those that received those great manifestations in the Kirtland Temple, where are they now, most of them fell away".
Why may we ask, because of the same ol thing, the minute mankind receives anything from God, along comes "el diablo", with as great of temptations as to the manifestations of God's Spirit. Or in other words he, "el diablo" is allowed to tempt and try us to the same extent as to the manifestation from God. He tells us we must be somebody great, to have received these things, we must need to lead, we must be put in charge, or many other ways and means of leading us astray. And most of us cannot stand it, most of us want to be somebody, most of us refuse to take a back seat. "None doeth good no not one, except, the humble followers of Jesus Christ, but in many instances they also do err because they follow the precepts of man".

There is no reading of scripture that would preclude Sidney and Frederick from returning to fulfill their commissions. Matter of fact, the Lord told these two they were equal with Joseph in holding the keys and that they would hold them in the world to come. He said this without any conditions. Here's a direct quote if you prefer Christ's words: " the keys of this kingdom shall never be taken from you".

It could be interpreted that Oliver's blessings were given to Hyrum, but in light of Oliver being part of the intercessory offering, I don't think that is the case.

Quoting apostate fake apostles like George A. Smith from a rejected church is not helping your case. The saints who didn't follow BY were far more in the right than those who did.

I guess if it's all fake then there is nothing to talk about. We also completely disagree on foundation of this.

[logonbump]

Throughout scripture are references to the two great servants of the last days.

These two sons.
The two candlesticks.
The two olive trees.
The two anointed ones.
The two witnesses.
The Stay and the Staff.
The Branch and the Brand.
The two staves.
The prophet and priest.
The Seer and the Spokesman.

Who truly opened up this dispensation, did it start in 1820 with the first vision? Prior to 1820 Sidney Rigdon had spent years in Bible study and was finishing getting his preaching license. When Joseph and a hundred or so saints left New York to go to Kirtland, their numbers in Kirtland jumped up to over a thousand due to Sidney having prepared a people. He had two large congregations and his Kirtland followers almost all converted to the Book of Mormon.

From my own studies, I've concluded that Joseph represented the kingdom of Israel, the Northern Kingdom and symbolically carried the staff or stick being the head of leadership and Sidney represented the leadership head for Judah, the Southern Kingdom. When the New York saints joined with the Kirtland saints, this became a prefulfillment of their joining for good in the third watch. This is one of the meanings of the Stick of Ephraim combining with the Stick of Judah. Old Testament prophecy will be fulfilled, and these two kingdoms will have their long-awaited reunification. The two heads of these two kingdoms are the above referenced sons, olive trees, witnesses, candlesticks, etc.

Wow! Kirtland really was a Jerusalem, and will be again. Joseph Jr truly found a prepared people there. Sydney the forerunner?