The apostasy reconsidered

For discussion of liberty, freedom, government and politics.
Post Reply
Christianlee
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2531

The apostasy reconsidered

Post by Christianlee »

As LDS it has always been assumed based on LDS scripture that an apostasy occurred early in church history after the apostles. Of course the Catholics believe Catholic Bishops are the successors to the apostles. And they spread the good news of Jesus to much of the world.

What if we are really seeing the apostasy occurring now, just before the return of Christ? The belief has always been that a falling away must precede Christ’s return. Why would that falling away happen 1900 years before that return and before the gospel had been preached to the nations? The apostasy from scriptural moral values seems to be reaching its zenith right now. Modern technology is being used to advance it. The LGBT movement (with transgenderism especially promoting an antichrist spirit) has shaken the very foundation of civilization by denying family life. Medical technology is attacking life itself. All of these things are barely being contested by Christians generally beyond a relatively small remnant trying to hold back the tide.

It seems to me this small remnant is not defined by denominational boundaries at all. Most of Churchianity has been absorbed into the antichrist system and may become part of the bloc fighting the remnant. I am not sure how that fits into Mormonism’s understanding of itself. I see individual Mormons standing up with the broader remnant of those who have taken upon themselves the name of Christ, but I am less than impressed with LDS Inc.’s commitment to holding back the tide. This apostasy in Churchianity seems real. I guess the remnant of wheat must continue praying and encouraging those who seem to be in danger of becoming tares. At the same time the remnant must be fortified against the tide which could engulf it if it lets down its guard.

Or perhaps all people need to do is play Church. Pray, pay and obey. And be tolerant above all other values.

User avatar
iWriteStuff
blithering blabbermouth
Posts: 5523
Location: Sinope
Contact:

Re: The apostasy reconsidered

Post by iWriteStuff »

I think you may be on to something here.

Which is more likely - that the “stone cut without hands” is the 16M member, 200 year old church that assimilated Babylon faster than the early Christian church? Or is it more likely that the 2.2B Christians in the world are a better fulfillment of OT prophecy?

An interesting thing one finds if you ever listen to a sermon at a local Christian church - they pray for the other Christian congregations in the community , regardless of denomination. They have more unity between denominational congregations with different doctrines than we do even within the same ward. It has blown my mind.

Aside from the fact that apostasy is a personal matter, I find more evidence that we are closer to a great apostasy now than we have been in the last 2k years.

User avatar
BuriedTartaria
Captain of Tartary
Posts: 1904

Re: The apostasy reconsidered

Post by BuriedTartaria »

Christianlee wrote: January 13th, 2023, 7:05 pm
What if we are really seeing the apostasy occurring now, just before the return of Christ? The belief has always been that a falling away must precede Christ’s return. Why would that falling away happen 1900 years before that return and before the gospel had been preached to the nations? The apostasy from scriptural moral values seems to be reaching its zenith right now. Modern technology is being used to advance it.
You make great points. Aside from the traditional LDS perspective on apostasy, I think you bring attention to something important; a type of apostasy has occurred recently but what you perceive is what others perceive as the concept of the Times of The Gentiles (both a Mormon idea and Christian idea) coming to an end or being fulfilled, which is a type of apostasy and fulfillment of Biblical prophecy.
Christian Broadcasting Network--PatRobertson wrote: There is a financial crisis in our world that has never been seen before. There is tension between the United States and China, the United States and Russia, the United States and North Korea. There's the possibility of a nuclear war going on. Why is that? It's because this is the end of the gentiles! This is the prophecy we have all been looking for! I was waiting for this one for so many years. When the Jews finally took over Jerusalem, this was the major prophecy that Jesus had given that said "Jerusalem will be trodden under the foot of the gentiles until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled. So we are at the end of the age of the gentiles and the trouble in our world was prophesied by Jesus......
Christian Broadcasting Network--PatRobertson wrote: We are living in the most powerful gentile nation. We are the fulfillment of all the prophecies of all the ages, over the years, of the great empires that have come and gone... we're the last one. There is not going to be another one. There's not going to be another kingdom, there's not going to be another Nebuchadnezzar, there's not going to be another Persia, there's not going to be another great empire. We're it. And this is the end ladies and gentlemen. This is the one. The Bible says "when ye see these things come to pass let that lift up your heads because YOUR REDEMPTION DRAWS NIGH. This is the one the Lord is getting closer and closer to the fulfillment of the ages
Image

Joseph Smith's Bible alterations (revisions, inspired edits, whatever you want to call it) explicitly state that the signs and events of Christ's Second Coming that are to occur in a single generation happen during the generation of the end of the Gentiles. Bros and sisters, I think this is it.

On this idea of viewing the general understanding of apostasy differently, I've come across a movement who believes the Dark Ages were actually an inspired, blessed time period, and not the nightmare painted by traditional views on history.
Christianlee wrote: January 13th, 2023, 7:05 pm
It seems to me this small remnant is not defined by denominational boundaries at all.
Agreed. There is a ripening of the wheat, an awakening among the wheat, this goes beyond denominations.
Last edited by BuriedTartaria on January 13th, 2023, 10:02 pm, edited 7 times in total.

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15309
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: The apostasy reconsidered

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Analyzing these words again with a fresh perspective is helpful: 2 Thess.

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This is us all day long. For one, we have to spend some quality time understanding the deception that is here. Then we must see how Satan is being exalted right before our eyes. Combine this with D&C 112 and this really should blow your hair back a little bit. Both of these forms of desecration begin upon the Lord’s house.

D&C 112

24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.
25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;
26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

User avatar
Pazooka
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5222
Location: FEMA District 8

Re: The apostasy reconsidered

Post by Pazooka »

What if an apostasy happens every time the Woman gives birth to a Child who is to rule with a rod of iron? What if the story always goes that the Child is caught up to heaven, with a remnant fleeing into the wilderness to be nurtured for a season by the Woman?

Truth is hounded out of this world almost as fast as it is brought to light. It is rare and hard to find. If many believe in something, odds are that it is based on a lie.

User avatar
The Red Pill
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1661
Location: Southern Utah

Re: The apostasy reconsidered

Post by The Red Pill »

Christianlee wrote: January 13th, 2023, 7:05 pm As LDS it has always been assumed based on LDS scripture that an apostasy occurred early in church history after the apostles. Of course the Catholics believe Catholic Bishops are the successors to the apostles. And they spread the good news of Jesus to much of the world.

What if we are really seeing the apostasy occurring now, just before the return of Christ? The belief has always been that a falling away must precede Christ’s return. Why would that falling away happen 1900 years before that return and before the gospel had been preached to the nations? The apostasy from scriptural moral values seems to be reaching its zenith right now. Modern technology is being used to advance it. The LGBT movement (with transgenderism especially promoting an antichrist spirit) has shaken the very foundation of civilization by denying family life. Medical technology is attacking life itself. All of these things are barely being contested by Christians generally beyond a relatively small remnant trying to hold back the tide.

It seems to me this small remnant is not defined by denominational boundaries at all. Most of Churchianity has been absorbed into the antichrist system and may become part of the bloc fighting the remnant. I am not sure how that fits into Mormonism’s understanding of itself. I see individual Mormons standing up with the broader remnant of those who have taken upon themselves the name of Christ, but I am less than impressed with LDS Inc.’s commitment to holding back the tide. This apostasy in Churchianity seems real. I guess the remnant of wheat must continue praying and encouraging those who seem to be in danger of becoming tares. At the same time the remnant must be fortified against the tide which could engulf it if it lets down its guard.

Or perhaps all people need to do is play Church. Pray, pay and obey. And be tolerant above all other values.
Yes, I believe you have something here.

For people paying attention, the heroes and Patriots right now are NOT sitting in red-chairs, puffed up in their own self importance and supposed infallibility.

No, the last 3 years have decloaked the frauds and shown people for who and what they are. It has also revealed the Remnant.

Not by their wealth, social standing, popularity or rhetoric...but by their fruits, their good works. Pounding out the truth daily regardless of the personal cost to them. Whistle-blowers who have lost jobs to reveal life saving treatments. Patriots who are rotting in DC gulags for just being at the capital to protest a stolen election. Podcasters who value the truth more than making a buck.

They are from diverse backgrounds and religious affiliation and often just refer to themselves as Christian. They see the globalist/communist takeover for what it is and are doing everything they can to oppose it every day of their lives. This is the remnant.

Meanwhile...the Mormons who have the advantage of possessing Ether 8...who should be the tip of the spear...are nothing but a disappointment, an embarrassment and a disgrace in "urging" the satanic deadly-jab...and proudly proclaiming wokeness.

Bronco73idi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3623

Re: The apostasy reconsidered

Post by Bronco73idi »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 13th, 2023, 9:41 pm Analyzing these words again with a fresh perspective is helpful: 2 Thess.

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This is us all day long. For one, we have to spend some quality time understanding the deception that is here. Then we must see how Satan is being exalted right before our eyes. Combine this with D&C 112 and this really should blow your hair back a little bit. Both of these forms of desecration begin upon the Lord’s house.

D&C 112

24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.
25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;
26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.
2 Thessalonians is the Antichrist that will be setup after the red calf is sacrificed.

Beauty of 2 Thessalonians is verse 3 “ except there come a falling away first,” I actually thought of posting this verse earlier today when I read this discussion.

Like Nephi and Jacob, Paul knew that there would be a great apostasy. Some think it started in 536 when millions died due to a volcanic eruption 🌋

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_winter_of_536

If you subtract 1260 from 1830 you get 570, April of 570 Mohammad was born…. 😂

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13997

Re: The apostasy reconsidered

Post by Niemand »

The Apostasy is an ongoing process. It was even going on in some form before Jesus began his mortal mission and he criticised Jewish religious leaders heavily for it. One could even argue that Apostasy began in Eden. There were also apostasies before the times of Abraham and Moses.

It may be a mistake likewise to think that what is happening now is something new. There has been a falling away in Christian churches which has been ongoing for some time, but one could also point to major trends which happened with the start of the Enlightenment in the 18th century (before Joseph Smith), the introduction of mass media in the 20th century such as television and radio, and the so called Sexual Revolution which started either just after WW1 or WW2 (take your pick) and became mainstream in the 1960s.

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13997

Re: The apostasy reconsidered

Post by Niemand »

The mainstream theory of the Great Apostasy is not without merit. Christianity came under massive threat in the early centuries AD, and most of the early leaders were murdered. Some very ugly and weird heresies crept in. Mormons are often accused of being one of these in modern times, but these ones were closer to wilder Theosophical and New Age reinterpretations of Christ.

Then there were a series of synods and councils brought together. I do not see these are entirely a bad thing like the LDS does, but there was some error introduced. The big issue though was when Christianity was mainstreamed and got into bed with worldly government (which we see again today). Armenia was the first state to adopt Christianity, followed by the Roman Empire, which as we know blended the religion with that of Sol Invictus, goddess cults and Platonic philosophy. (Again, I don't take an entirely negative view of Plato's teachings. Some of them do not contradict Christianity. We have to grapple with the ones which do and how.)

I occasionally interact with RCs and Orthodox and the repeated lines that they come out with are all about apostolic succession, continuity and tradition. They both claim direct line continuity from the original church. Despite what some LDS like to think, they do not view us as having these. They think of us as a heretical outgrowth of Protestantism, possibly with demonic overtones. My counterargument is that they have adopted a Christian version of the Talmudic mentality, i.e. the adoption of oral tradition as written tradition and excessive legalism which overcomplicates the Gospel. I've also pointed out to them that some of Jesus' immediate disciples started showing elements of apostasy early on and were rebuked by Jesus for it – this includes Peter and Thomas, who no Christian would argue were not great nen.

User avatar
CaptainM
captain of 100
Posts: 639
Location: "A chosen land, and the land of liberty"

Re: The apostasy reconsidered

Post by CaptainM »

Some things to consider:

Most of the prophecies in the book of Mormon about the problems with the restored gentile church are referring to the restored Gentile church at the time of Joseph Smith’s ministry. They are not referring to those of us living four generations later. For instance in Mormon 8, when the Gentiles are reprimanded for transfiguring the holy word of God and of polluting the Holy Church of God, it is the Kirtland Saints living during Joseph Smith’s ministry that is being referred to, not us. The holy Church of God has not been on the earth during our life time. It has not been on the earth for four generations. The term “Holy Church of God” refers to the “true and living Church” that has the fulness of the gospel and priesthood.

The Holy Church of God Fled back into the Wilderness

The timeline chart shown below illustrates that the holy Church and kingdom of God came forth out of the wilderness for 3 1/2 years, just as John the Revelator and the Book of Daniel prophesied that it would. Following that, the Saints would be overcome until the ancient of days returns.

Image

The 3 1/2 year period that the fulness would be offered and ultimately rejected by the Saints, began in June of 1831 when the fulness of priesthood was restored at the Morley Farm and 23 high priests were called by the voice of God out of heaven. It then fled back into the wilderness as soon as the saints cumulatively broke the everlasting covenant as foretold in Isaiah 24.

Exactly 3 1/2 years after the Melchizedek priesthood was restored at the Morley Farm, the Lord gave a revelation declaring that the saints and their leaders were under condemnation and needed to have a reformation in ALL THINGS. Shortly after that, the Lord announced that the covenant of consecration had been broken and that the Saints must wait for a little season to live the law of Zion and the heavens began to close.

Contrary to what LDS apologists tell us about the heretical teachings that infiltrated the church during the Nauvoo period, that contradicted the early teachings during the revelatory period during the early Kirtland years, Joseph was not more illuminated and revelatory in Nauvoo. The eyes of the seers were being covered just as Isaiah had prophesied. Progressive revelation builds upon and complements previous revelation, it does not contradict it.
https://onewhoiswatching.wordpress.com/ ... e+gentiles

User avatar
Robin Hood
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13110
Location: England

Re: The apostasy reconsidered

Post by Robin Hood »

I think we could be talking about two parts of the apostasy.
The apostasy of the Church, and the apostasy of the church.
The apostasy of the Church began to occur in the second century with the loss of the apostles and the apostolic fathers. The lights were finally extinguished in 570 AD.
This resulted in loss of priesthood authority and of sound doctrine.

The apostasy of the church has taken much longer, perhaps 20 centuries, to manifest in all its glory. This is the failure of Christians to endure sound doctrine and fall away from their faith (not necessarily their Church).

simpleton
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3074

Re: The apostasy reconsidered

Post by simpleton »

CaptainM wrote: January 14th, 2023, 4:15 am Some things to consider:

Most of the prophecies in the book of Mormon about the problems with the restored gentile church are referring to the restored Gentile church at the time of Joseph Smith’s ministry. They are not referring to those of us living four generations later. For instance in Mormon 8, when the Gentiles are reprimanded for transfiguring the holy word of God and of polluting the Holy Church of God, it is the Kirtland Saints living during Joseph Smith’s ministry that is being referred to, not us. The holy Church of God has not been on the earth during our life time. It has not been on the earth for four generations. The term “Holy Church of God” refers to the “true and living Church” that has the fulness of the gospel and priesthood.

The Holy Church of God Fled back into the Wilderness

The timeline chart shown below illustrates that the holy Church and kingdom of God came forth out of the wilderness for 3 1/2 years, just as John the Revelator and the Book of Daniel prophesied that it would. Following that, the Saints would be overcome until the ancient of days returns.

Image

The 3 1/2 year period that the fulness would be offered and ultimately rejected by the Saints, began in June of 1831 when the fulness of priesthood was restored at the Morley Farm and 23 high priests were called by the voice of God out of heaven. It then fled back into the wilderness as soon as the saints cumulatively broke the everlasting covenant as foretold in Isaiah 24.

Exactly 3 1/2 years after the Melchizedek priesthood was restored at the Morley Farm, the Lord gave a revelation declaring that the saints and their leaders were under condemnation and needed to have a reformation in ALL THINGS. Shortly after that, the Lord announced that the covenant of consecration had been broken and that the Saints must wait for a little season to live the law of Zion and the heavens began to close.

Contrary to what LDS apologists tell us about the heretical teachings that infiltrated the church during the Nauvoo period, that contradicted the early teachings during the revelatory period during the early Kirtland years, Joseph was not more illuminated and revelatory in Nauvoo. The eyes of the seers were being covered just as Isaiah had prophesied. Progressive revelation builds upon and complements previous revelation, it does not contradict it.
https://onewhoiswatching.wordpress.com/ ... e+gentiles
One guess is as good as another.

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13997

Re: The apostasy reconsidered

Post by Niemand »

Robin Hood wrote: January 14th, 2023, 4:36 am I think we could be talking about two parts of the apostasy.
The apostasy of the Church, and the apostasy of the church.
The apostasy of the Church began to occur in the second century with the loss of the apostles and the apostolic fathers. The lights were finally extinguished in 570 AD.
This resulted in loss of priesthood authority and of sound doctrine.

The apostasy of the church has taken much longer, perhaps 20 centuries, to manifest in all its glory. This is the failure of Christians to endure sound doctrine and fall away from their faith (not necessarily their Church).
A lot of mini-apostasies as well. Some of these come and go, but most, like the falling away of churches after the Enlightenment in the 18th century are still with us. I think we could see these as being similar to the various antichrists who have been and gone, as opposed to the Antichrist.

As an example of one of the few apostasies which has come and gone, I'd list so called classic "Spiritualism". That was very fashionable a century ago, just after WW1 and its ideas entered many churches even starting a few denominations. Spirit mediums are still with us, but I don't think many Christians are attending séances anymore. (Probably traditional Marxism too, since so called Liberation Theology has mostly been and gone, but cultural Marxism (aka critical theory/intersectionality/wokeness) is still very much still with us and causing our current problems.)

User avatar
Robin Hood
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13110
Location: England

Re: The apostasy reconsidered

Post by Robin Hood »

CaptainM wrote: January 14th, 2023, 4:15 am Some things to consider:

Most of the prophecies in the book of Mormon about the problems with the restored gentile church are referring to the restored Gentile church at the time of Joseph Smith’s ministry. They are not referring to those of us living four generations later. For instance in Mormon 8, when the Gentiles are reprimanded for transfiguring the holy word of God and of polluting the Holy Church of God, it is the Kirtland Saints living during Joseph Smith’s ministry that is being referred to, not us. The holy Church of God has not been on the earth during our life time. It has not been on the earth for four generations. The term “Holy Church of God” refers to the “true and living Church” that has the fulness of the gospel and priesthood.

The Holy Church of God Fled back into the Wilderness

The timeline chart shown below illustrates that the holy Church and kingdom of God came forth out of the wilderness for 3 1/2 years, just as John the Revelator and the Book of Daniel prophesied that it would. Following that, the Saints would be overcome until the ancient of days returns.

Image

The 3 1/2 year period that the fulness would be offered and ultimately rejected by the Saints, began in June of 1831 when the fulness of priesthood was restored at the Morley Farm and 23 high priests were called by the voice of God out of heaven. It then fled back into the wilderness as soon as the saints cumulatively broke the everlasting covenant as foretold in Isaiah 24.

Exactly 3 1/2 years after the Melchizedek priesthood was restored at the Morley Farm, the Lord gave a revelation declaring that the saints and their leaders were under condemnation and needed to have a reformation in ALL THINGS. Shortly after that, the Lord announced that the covenant of consecration had been broken and that the Saints must wait for a little season to live the law of Zion and the heavens began to close.

Contrary to what LDS apologists tell us about the heretical teachings that infiltrated the church during the Nauvoo period, that contradicted the early teachings during the revelatory period during the early Kirtland years, Joseph was not more illuminated and revelatory in Nauvoo. The eyes of the seers were being covered just as Isaiah had prophesied. Progressive revelation builds upon and complements previous revelation, it does not contradict it.
https://onewhoiswatching.wordpress.com/ ... e+gentiles
I can't agree with your interpretation of Mormon 8 referring to the Kirtland era.
Are you saying that the Saints of 1830 could ignore Mormon 8, and that from Nauvoo onwards it can also be safely skipped over?

Mormon 8 is interesting for a number of reasons.
Firstly, note the fact that the phrase "holy church of God" is lower case. Why do you think that is?
Secondly, Moroni says "why have ye polluted". Why is he referring to the incident as past tense? Given that he is supposedly viewing this as a future event, he could more properly have said "why do ye pollute" or "why are ye polluting". But to render in the past tense can be interpreted as something that has already occured.

I know this isn't a popular view here, but could Moroni, who is writing this in 400+ AD, be referring to the apostasy of the Gentile church under Rome? Just a thought.

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15309
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: The apostasy reconsidered

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Bronco73idi wrote: January 14th, 2023, 12:40 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 13th, 2023, 9:41 pm Analyzing these words again with a fresh perspective is helpful: 2 Thess.

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This is us all day long. For one, we have to spend some quality time understanding the deception that is here. Then we must see how Satan is being exalted right before our eyes. Combine this with D&C 112 and this really should blow your hair back a little bit. Both of these forms of desecration begin upon the Lord’s house.

D&C 112

24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.
25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;
26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.
2 Thessalonians is the Antichrist that will be setup after the red calf is sacrificed.

Beauty of 2 Thessalonians is verse 3 “ except there come a falling away first,” I actually thought of posting this verse earlier today when I read this discussion.

Like Nephi and Jacob, Paul knew that there would be a great apostasy. Some think it started in 536 when millions died due to a volcanic eruption 🌋

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_winter_of_536

If you subtract 1260 from 1830 you get 570, April of 570 Mohammad was born…. 😂
I don't know... if the claims of SRA in the temple are true... It just makes you wonder.

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15309
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: The apostasy reconsidered

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Robin Hood wrote: January 14th, 2023, 5:46 am
CaptainM wrote: January 14th, 2023, 4:15 am Some things to consider:

Most of the prophecies in the book of Mormon about the problems with the restored gentile church are referring to the restored Gentile church at the time of Joseph Smith’s ministry. They are not referring to those of us living four generations later. For instance in Mormon 8, when the Gentiles are reprimanded for transfiguring the holy word of God and of polluting the Holy Church of God, it is the Kirtland Saints living during Joseph Smith’s ministry that is being referred to, not us. The holy Church of God has not been on the earth during our life time. It has not been on the earth for four generations. The term “Holy Church of God” refers to the “true and living Church” that has the fulness of the gospel and priesthood.

The Holy Church of God Fled back into the Wilderness

The timeline chart shown below illustrates that the holy Church and kingdom of God came forth out of the wilderness for 3 1/2 years, just as John the Revelator and the Book of Daniel prophesied that it would. Following that, the Saints would be overcome until the ancient of days returns.

Image

The 3 1/2 year period that the fulness would be offered and ultimately rejected by the Saints, began in June of 1831 when the fulness of priesthood was restored at the Morley Farm and 23 high priests were called by the voice of God out of heaven. It then fled back into the wilderness as soon as the saints cumulatively broke the everlasting covenant as foretold in Isaiah 24.

Exactly 3 1/2 years after the Melchizedek priesthood was restored at the Morley Farm, the Lord gave a revelation declaring that the saints and their leaders were under condemnation and needed to have a reformation in ALL THINGS. Shortly after that, the Lord announced that the covenant of consecration had been broken and that the Saints must wait for a little season to live the law of Zion and the heavens began to close.

Contrary to what LDS apologists tell us about the heretical teachings that infiltrated the church during the Nauvoo period, that contradicted the early teachings during the revelatory period during the early Kirtland years, Joseph was not more illuminated and revelatory in Nauvoo. The eyes of the seers were being covered just as Isaiah had prophesied. Progressive revelation builds upon and complements previous revelation, it does not contradict it.
https://onewhoiswatching.wordpress.com/ ... e+gentiles
I can't agree with your interpretation of Mormon 8 referring to the Kirtland era.
Are you saying that the Saints of 1830 could ignore Mormon 8, and that from Nauvoo onwards it can also be safely skipped over?

Mormon 8 is interesting for a number of reasons.
Firstly, note the fact that the phrase "holy church of God" is lower case. Why do you think that is?
Secondly, Moroni says "why have ye polluted". Why is he referring to the incident as past tense? Given that he is supposedly viewing this as a future event, he could more properly have said "why do ye pollute" or "why are ye polluting". But to render in the past tense can be interpreted as something that has already occured.

I know this isn't a popular view here, but could Moroni, who is writing this in 400+ AD, be referring to the apostasy of the Gentile church under Rome? Just a thought.
Not that this has any more credibility than any other opinion, but some church leaders felt that Mormon 8 was talking about us. Glenn L. Pace specifically references Mormon 8 in the Pace Memorandum and links it to the church.

User avatar
Wondering Wendy
captain of 100
Posts: 475
Location: The Secret Place

Re: The apostasy reconsidered

Post by Wondering Wendy »

CaptainM wrote: January 14th, 2023, 4:15 am Some things to consider:

Most of the prophecies in the book of Mormon about the problems with the restored gentile church are referring to the restored Gentile church at the time of Joseph Smith’s ministry. They are not referring to those of us living four generations later. For instance in Mormon 8, when the Gentiles are reprimanded for transfiguring the holy word of God and of polluting the Holy Church of God, it is the Kirtland Saints living during Joseph Smith’s ministry that is being referred to, not us. The holy Church of God has not been on the earth during our life time. It has not been on the earth for four generations. The term “Holy Church of God” refers to the “true and living Church” that has the fulness of the gospel and priesthood.

The Holy Church of God Fled back into the Wilderness

The timeline chart shown below illustrates that the holy Church and kingdom of God came forth out of the wilderness for 3 1/2 years, just as John the Revelator and the Book of Daniel prophesied that it would. Following that, the Saints would be overcome until the ancient of days returns.

Image

The 3 1/2 year period that the fulness would be offered and ultimately rejected by the Saints, began in June of 1831 when the fulness of priesthood was restored at the Morley Farm and 23 high priests were called by the voice of God out of heaven. It then fled back into the wilderness as soon as the saints cumulatively broke the everlasting covenant as foretold in Isaiah 24.

Exactly 3 1/2 years after the Melchizedek priesthood was restored at the Morley Farm, the Lord gave a revelation declaring that the saints and their leaders were under condemnation and needed to have a reformation in ALL THINGS. Shortly after that, the Lord announced that the covenant of consecration had been broken and that the Saints must wait for a little season to live the law of Zion and the heavens began to close.

Contrary to what LDS apologists tell us about the heretical teachings that infiltrated the church during the Nauvoo period, that contradicted the early teachings during the revelatory period during the early Kirtland years, Joseph was not more illuminated and revelatory in Nauvoo. The eyes of the seers were being covered just as Isaiah had prophesied. Progressive revelation builds upon and complements previous revelation, it does not contradict it.
https://onewhoiswatching.wordpress.com/ ... e+gentiles
I agree with you and Watcher here, although I always disagree whenever someone says there is only one fulfillment of scripture. There are always multiple fulfillments of scripture and they can always be applied to us in some way.

Daniel 9:27 does apply to Joseph Smith, but also Christ's ministry, and will likely be fulfilled again very soon. The holy church of God has been corrupted many times in the way this scripture implies, is corrupted now, and will be corrupted again.

We do ourselves a great disservice to ever claim that scripture no longer applies to us.

User avatar
Rumpelstiltskin
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1085
Location: A galaxy far, far away

Re: The apostasy reconsidered

Post by Rumpelstiltskin »

This idea is right in line with Isaiah. This is from the Gileadi translation with explanation.

1:4 Alas, a nation astray, a people weighed down by sin, the offspring of wrongdoers, perverse children: they have forsaken Jehovah, they have spurned the Holy One of Israel, they have lapsed into apostasy.

From addressing his people personally as “Israel . . . my people” (v 3), Jehovah now addresses them impersonally as “a nation,” signifying their alienated state. Additionally, a regression occurs from his people’s simply going “astray” to their burdening themselves with “sin,” which, over time, ends in outright “wrongdoing.” That occurs collectively and generationally. The “offspring of wrongdoers” turn into “perverse children,” meaning that the rising generation has by now become thoroughly corrupt. “Forsaking” Jehovah and “spurning” him finally become conscious and deliberate acts.

The Holy One of Israel. The title of “Holy One,” together with “Valiant One” (v 24) designates Israel’s God more than thirty times in the Book of Isaiah. In this case, it contrasts Jehovah’s holiness with his people’s unholiness. Still, it points to what Jehovah’s people should become—“holy” or “sanctified,” like their God. Both titles—“Holy One” and “Valiant One”— characterize Israel’s God as his people’s exemplar. We observe this in an instance in which Jehovah exempts a righteous remnant of his people called his “holy ones” and “valiant ones” from a worldwide destruction (Isaiah 13:3).

They have lapsed into apostasy. Hebrew nazoru ahor signifies that Jehovah’s people have become entirely “estranged” from him. They have “gone backwards” to what they used to be before they became Jehovah’s covenant people, when they didn’t know their God. In effect, they have become godless again like the world’s heathen nations, but now more so because they have rejected the light they once had. The apostasy into which they began to backslide a generation ago is now complete. As a consequence, instead of enjoying the blessings of the covenant, they must suffer its curses.

This also falls in line with D&C 85:7

"And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;"

Why would the Davidic Servant be sent "to set in order the house of God" if it had not lapsed into apostasy?

User avatar
Robin Hood
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13110
Location: England

Re: The apostasy reconsidered

Post by Robin Hood »

Rumpelstiltskin wrote: January 14th, 2023, 11:09 am This idea is right in line with Isaiah. This is from the Gileadi translation with explanation.

1:4 Alas, a nation astray, a people weighed down by sin, the offspring of wrongdoers, perverse children: they have forsaken Jehovah, they have spurned the Holy One of Israel, they have lapsed into apostasy.

From addressing his people personally as “Israel . . . my people” (v 3), Jehovah now addresses them impersonally as “a nation,” signifying their alienated state. Additionally, a regression occurs from his people’s simply going “astray” to their burdening themselves with “sin,” which, over time, ends in outright “wrongdoing.” That occurs collectively and generationally. The “offspring of wrongdoers” turn into “perverse children,” meaning that the rising generation has by now become thoroughly corrupt. “Forsaking” Jehovah and “spurning” him finally become conscious and deliberate acts.

The Holy One of Israel. The title of “Holy One,” together with “Valiant One” (v 24) designates Israel’s God more than thirty times in the Book of Isaiah. In this case, it contrasts Jehovah’s holiness with his people’s unholiness. Still, it points to what Jehovah’s people should become—“holy” or “sanctified,” like their God. Both titles—“Holy One” and “Valiant One”— characterize Israel’s God as his people’s exemplar. We observe this in an instance in which Jehovah exempts a righteous remnant of his people called his “holy ones” and “valiant ones” from a worldwide destruction (Isaiah 13:3).

They have lapsed into apostasy. Hebrew nazoru ahor signifies that Jehovah’s people have become entirely “estranged” from him. They have “gone backwards” to what they used to be before they became Jehovah’s covenant people, when they didn’t know their God. In effect, they have become godless again like the world’s heathen nations, but now more so because they have rejected the light they once had. The apostasy into which they began to backslide a generation ago is now complete. As a consequence, instead of enjoying the blessings of the covenant, they must suffer its curses.

This also falls in line with D&C 85:7

"And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;"

Why would the Davidic Servant be sent "to set in order the house of God" if it had not lapsed into apostasy?
My personal view is that the One Mighty & Strong and the Davidic Servant are not the same person.

Post Reply