Elder Renlund: "It seemed good to the Holy Ghost" to send the first presidency vaccination letter

[Rubicon]

They've certainly painted themselves into a corner this time. I suppose their strategy going forward is to behave as if the last two years never happened.

Do you notice that they're not doing Q & A sessions anymore? I wonder why.

This is precisely the tactic the PR complex in the Church relies on right now (I think the Brethren should not cede and acquiesce so much to the PR people).

Where are you getting that they don't do Q&A any more? I think these still happen, but under tightly-controlled conditions.

[Rubicon]

I think it was either Renlund or Rasband who at a meeting with African saints said something along the lines of "I don't care what anyone else says about the vaccine, because I know what the Prophet has said about it." He was answering a question about how some government leaders there in Africa had spoken against it.

Then a few months later he changed his tune to "read what the handbook says, it's a personal decision" at a stake meeting in northern Utah.

It seems like how they respond is based on how widely they think they will be broadcast. For more widespread conferences, they don't stray. In smaller settings they will be more willing to be "personal" with their remarks. Kind of like Holland's recent, "I can do whatever I want, unless Nelson walks in the door" comment at the conference he attended recently.

Rasband also visited with a local seminary class in Queen Creek, Arizona and had his picture taken without a mask, bunched together in tight quarters, during the height of restrictions (the seminary class, and parents, and Elder Rasband, were almost exclusively unmasked). I have a picture of this, April 2021 (when the Church was heavy into masking all the time, General Conference was masks and distancing with no audience, etc.).

I think some/many of the Brethren are normal people, and and not as fanatically into the masking and vaxxing as others in leadership and the bureaucracy. But you wouldn't know this outside of smaller, less "global" settings.

Rasband and seminary.jpg (648.09 KiB) Viewed 990 times

[The Red Pill]

It was Rasband that spoke in Africa. Just found the video (thanks to Alexander)

I shake my head at comments like this from the press release about the meeting. https://news-africa.churchofjesuschrist ... lts-africa

Along with that came a clarion call to follow the living prophet. This, said Elder Sitati, “was especially relevant at a time when many are not vaccinated against COVID-19"

Thank you for posting this video! It illustrates just how INCREDIBLY WRONG and reckless Q15 actually were.

The interviewer asked Rasband a question: "Many high level leaders in Africa are NOT recommending the shot, how do you reconcile this?"

Rasband appeals to authority...NOT spiritual authority, NOT personal revelation for yourself, NOT ask God... but worldly authority...arm of the flesh authority. He says Q15 has this figured out, God told us, no need to trust ANYONE else but RMN and company. We got this from God, trust us...He literally says WE consider the jab a "miracle" a "Godsend" implying strongly it would be foolish not to follow RMN.

Rasband then appeals to authority again...with the August 12th letter. Which he makes clear is for ALL 16 million members worldwide. The outright FALSEHOODS in the letter are astounding, given the infallibility buildup he just constructed.

OUTRIGHT FALSE STATEMENTS INCLUDE:

1. Masks protect you from viruses
2. Social distancing protects you from viruses
3. Jab is safe
4. Jab is effective
5. Mass Jabbing the population is the ONLY way to end covid
6. Referring to covid as an unrelenting pandemic

Rasband then doubles down and triples down with his "I urge you to get jabbed" comments...with additional appeals to follow RMN. Then specifically says RMN's advice should SUPERCEDE the words of the African leaders.

This seven minute video is so damning. It is a plaintiffs DREAM COME TRUE. It proves Q15 gave medical advice to 16 million people. It proves that Q15 further pressured members to get the jab with appeals to authority with included guilt and shame for noncompliance. This medical advice was given with a KNOWN AT THE TIME...an untested, unproven, new mRNA tech which did not go well in previous animal trials, gene therapy drug...and many intelligent people including doctors worldwide (Barrington Declaration) were speaking out AGAINST it...including leaders in African nations.

We have to remember Q15 did not get it a little bit wrong here, a small percentage wrong, half wrong-half right...NO...they got it ALL wrong...as in 100% wrong...as in their advice got people injured and killed wrong.

And...as of 12-30-2022 not a hint of retraction, apology or even a warning of possible side effects (the CDC has even done this)...NO...just crickets.

This is NOT how God runs things!!!!!

[Jashon]

Consider again what Elder Stevenson did with the Book of Mormon at a meeting with the NAACP. He indirectly called out parts of the Book of Mormon as racist. It is no longer the most correct book. This has led increasing numbers of members to conclude that parts of it are racist, presumably authored by Joseph Smith, and that it can only be selectively relied upon.

Actually, the BofM is not God, nor were the writers, translators & editors. They have flaws.

I bet you don't think that when Joseph Smith said the Book of Mormon was the most correct book he meant it didn't have flaws. How could it be the most correct book, then? I think it's because it's a book that came as directly as possible from God.

[Jashon]

Consider again what Elder Stevenson did with the Book of Mormon at a meeting with the NAACP. He indirectly called out parts of the Book of Mormon as racist. It is no longer the most correct book. This has led increasing numbers of members to conclude that parts of it are racist, presumably authored by Joseph Smith, and that it can only be selectively relied upon.

No problem. The Nephites, led by ancient prophets, were racists. And that is what Joseph translated.

(I get you're being facetious here – just using it as a jumping off point.)

I guess it's probably an inevitable part of the human condition to be racist, which technically speaking isn't necessarily evil. It's only evil if malicious action occurs based on race.

But racism isn't even what's going on in the Book of Mormon. The skin color shift mentioned first in 2 Ne 5:21 occurs between brothers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but blood brothers can't be distinct races, can they?

I think what's going on, with Q15 and so many others, is that they've accepted the prevailing pseudo-scholarship narrative that the skin color difference mentioned in the Book of Mormon is malicious racism per se and that is must have a 19th cent. origin, with Joseph Smith letting his culture influence how he described things. Although this approved academic narrative is wrong, more and more LDS are buying into it, with Q15 now helping them along, which is an insidious move; and which is why I object to it so strongly, and see it as a serious error that will cause a lot of collateral damage as the years go by.

Now, Joseph Smith isn't responsible for any of this language. Think about it for a minute. The first mention of the skin color change, as Joseph dictated the text in 1829 in Harmony PA, is at Alma 3, because he began at Mosiah in 1829. That Alma 3 language refers back to earlier parts of the text, which he hadn't even dictated yet. Then the next mention of the skin color change is at 3 Ne. 2. But Joseph didn't pick up the threads of this until about two months later, in Fayette NY, when he dictated 2 Ne. 5. This isn't his tale, unless you think he kept track of all the complex threads, not just this one. He never even asked Oliver or a Whitmer brother to read back what he had dictated the previous day when he began the next day.

Look, academic research is corrupt, and too many fall prey to believing the lies they read in academic papers. Too many papers, especially in the "humanities," are not about truth-seeking. Truthfulness is not a priority in the vast majority of cases. Academic study and research is about posturing and sticking with what is academically acceptable and furthering careers. The priorities are leftist, materialist, and secular in nature. In the arts, the priorities are, generally speaking, atheistic and anti-Christian. And Q15 are unfortunately buying into these priorities more and more, which we are witnessing, quite clearly, in other areas.

[Rubicon]

I think what's going on, with Q15 and so many others, is that they've accepted the prevailing pseudo-scholarship narrative that the skin color difference mentioned in the Book of Mormon is malicious racism per se and that is must have a 19th cent. origin, with Joseph Smith letting his culture influence how he described things. Although this approved academic narrative is wrong, more and more LDS are buying into it, with Q15 now helping them along, which is an insidious move; and which is why I object to it so strongly, and see it as a serious error that will cause a lot of collateral damage as the years go by.

I think they are actually (they being those who make statements about it, such as Elder Stevenson) just throwing a bone to the "racism" crowd, but I don't think they really think or mean it. For all of the woke rhetoric, I can't help but notice that Lucy keeps pulling the football away, again and again with the "racism" things. Some examples: the Book of Mormon Come Follow Me manual for 2 Nephi 5, which people were freaking out about because it frankly addressed the skin curse passage in a straightforward, traditional way. Or Brother Wilcox's talk. Progressives shriek about how these things can keep happening. I think they keep happening because the commitment to jumping on the "racism" bandwagon by the institutional church is half-hearted and insincere. They don't really mean it or think or believe it, themselves. Yes, it would be better to simply say that the stories and passages about skin curses aren't racist, but they try to thread the needle by paying lip service to the vocal progressives, while not really changing anything.

Now, Joseph Smith isn't responsible for any of this language. Think about it for a minute. The first mention of the skin color change, as Joseph dictated the text in 1829 in Harmony PA, is at Alma 3, because he began at Mosiah in 1829. That Alma 3 language refers back to earlier parts of the text, which he hadn't even dictated yet. Then the next mention of the skin color change is at 3 Ne. 2. But Joseph didn't pick up the threads of this until about two months later, in Fayette NY, when he dictated 2 Ne. 5. This isn't his tale, unless you think he kept track of all the complex threads, not just this one. He never even asked Oliver or a Whitmer brother to read back what he had dictated the previous day when he began the next day.

I'm impressed by your knowledge of the translation timeline --- and the Mosiah 1-3/missing 116 pages/reverting to the small plates historical detail. I agree with you about what this says about what Joseph and his scribes would have known, and when they would have known it. I am continually amazed by the divinely-assisted feats of memory for Joseph in dictating without books or notes. As his mother said he was the least inclined of her children to read, I think he undertook a serious study of the Bible after Reverend Lane freaked out at him about the First Vision (Joseph's attention to James 1:5 had come from a Lane sermon, and he looked it up and decided to pray). I believe that the Spirit "brought all things to his remembrance" (John 14:26) after he started reading the Bible, and he had perfect recall in dictation if and when content was similar to Isaiah and other passages. He also demonstrates this in other places, like 1 Nephi 1:8 ("he thought he saw God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels in the attitude of singing and praising their God") and Alma 36:22 ("even as our father Lehi saw, God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels, in the attitude of singing and praising their God"). It wasn't just Bible passages he remembered verbatim; it was also earlier Book of Mormon passages.

Look, academic research is corrupt, and too many fall prey to believing the lies they read in academic papers. Too many papers, especially in the "humanities," are not about truth-seeking. Truthfulness is not a priority in the vast majority of cases. Academic study and research is about posturing and sticking with what is academically acceptable and furthering careers. The priorities are leftist, materialist, and secular in nature. In the arts, the priorities are, generally speaking, atheistic and anti-Christian. And Q15 are unfortunately buying into these priorities more and more, which we are witnessing, quite clearly, in other areas.
[/quote]

[Jashon]

I believe that the Spirit "brought all things to his remembrance" (John 14:26) after he started reading the Bible, and he had perfect recall in dictation if and when content was similar to Isaiah and other passages. He also demonstrates this in other places, like 1 Nephi 1:8 ("he thought he saw God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels in the attitude of singing and praising their God") and Alma 36:22 ("even as our father Lehi saw, God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels, in the attitude of singing and praising their God"). It wasn't just Bible passages he remembered verbatim; it was also earlier Book of Mormon passages.

Enhanced recall of biblical passages and other phraseology wasn't what was going on during the dictation. Consider:

2 Nephi 27:24
the Lord shall say unto him that shall read the words that shall be delivered him

That's about Joseph Smith receiving the Book of Mormon.

The Lord delivered words to him, even in the case of biblical quotations.

First, we know that all the unfamiliar names were given to Joseph as words.

Second, we know that any unfamiliar vocabulary items were given to Joseph as words.

Third, we know that any unfamiliar phrasing, especially when it was old language – but not biblical or pseudo-biblical language – was given to Joseph as distinct wording.

Fourth, in the case of biblical passages, there are more than 500 differences from King James readings: complex and simple, large and small; so those passages were given to Joseph, already redacted.

In short, virtually all the words were given to Joseph the seer. The ones that weren't given to him ended up in the original manuscript because of human error, either Joseph's or his scribe's.

[InfoWarrior82]

They've certainly painted themselves into a corner this time. I suppose their strategy going forward is to behave as if the last two years never happened.

Do you notice that they're not doing Q & A sessions anymore? I wonder why.

This is precisely the tactic the PR complex in the Church relies on right now (I think the Brethren should not cede and acquiesce so much to the PR people).

Where are you getting that they don't do Q&A any more? I think these still happen, but under tightly-controlled conditions.

It's that I, personally, have not heard of them doing this at all since the past year or so. If anyone here can speak to experiencing an open forum with one of the Q15 recently, I'd love to hear about it.

[Ciams]

They've certainly painted themselves into a corner this time. I suppose their strategy going forward is to behave as if the last two years never happened.

Do you notice that they're not doing Q & A sessions anymore? I wonder why.

This is precisely the tactic the PR complex in the Church relies on right now (I think the Brethren should not cede and acquiesce so much to the PR people).

Where are you getting that they don't do Q&A any more? I think these still happen, but under tightly-controlled conditions.

It's that I, personally, have not heard of them doing this at all since the past year or so. If anyone here can speak to experiencing an open forum with one of the Q15 recently, I'd love to hear about it.

We had a zoom call with an apostle (and some others). He took questions. Some were predictable "why are we going along with secret combinations" types, other questions related to various struggles with keeping people active and gathered close to the church.

[tribrac]

I'm thinking alot of the church's Covid nonsense, flippity flopping and changing messages based on location and audience makes a lot more sense to a poor slob like me after I read a little bit from the Beverly Brough thread. It seems the church has placed the highest priority on ingratiating the church organization into the ruling aristocracy.

[Pazooka]

They've certainly painted themselves into a corner this time. I suppose their strategy going forward is to behave as if the last two years never happened.

Do you notice that they're not doing Q & A sessions anymore? I wonder why.

This is precisely the tactic the PR complex in the Church relies on right now (I think the Brethren should not cede and acquiesce so much to the PR people).

Where are you getting that they don't do Q&A any more? I think these still happen, but under tightly-controlled conditions.

It's that I, personally, have not heard of them doing this at all since the past year or so. If anyone here can speak to experiencing an open forum with one of the Q15 recently, I'd love to hear about it.

We had a zoom call with an apostle (and some others). He took questions. Some were predictable "why are we going along with secret combinations" types, other questions related to various struggles with keeping people active and gathered close to the church.

Well, what did he say about why we’re going along with secret combinations?

[InfoWarrior82]

They've certainly painted themselves into a corner this time. I suppose their strategy going forward is to behave as if the last two years never happened.

Do you notice that they're not doing Q & A sessions anymore? I wonder why.

This is precisely the tactic the PR complex in the Church relies on right now (I think the Brethren should not cede and acquiesce so much to the PR people).

Where are you getting that they don't do Q&A any more? I think these still happen, but under tightly-controlled conditions.

It's that I, personally, have not heard of them doing this at all since the past year or so. If anyone here can speak to experiencing an open forum with one of the Q15 recently, I'd love to hear about it.

We had a zoom call with an apostle (and some others). He took questions. Some were predictable "why are we going along with secret combinations" types, other questions related to various struggles with keeping people active and gathered close to the church.

Whoa whoa whoa whoa! What was his answer to " why are we going along with secret combinations" ??????

Who were these apostles???

[SantaFe]

It was Rasband that spoke in Africa. Just found the video (thanks to Alexander)

I shake my head at comments like this from the press release about the meeting. https://news-africa.churchofjesuschrist ... lts-africa

Along with that came a clarion call to follow the living prophet. This, said Elder Sitati, “was especially relevant at a time when many are not vaccinated against COVID-19"

Thank you for posting this video! It illustrates just how INCREDIBLY WRONG and reckless Q15 actually were.

The interviewer asked Rasband a question: "Many high level leaders in Africa are NOT recommending the shot, how do you reconcile this?"

Rasband appeals to authority...NOT spiritual authority, NOT personal revelation for yourself, NOT ask God... but worldly authority...arm of the flesh authority. He says Q15 has this figured out, God told us, no need to trust ANYONE else but RMN and company. We got this from God, trust us...He literally says WE consider the jab a "miracle" a "Godsend" implying strongly it would be foolish not to follow RMN.

Rasband then appeals to authority again...with the August 12th letter. Which he makes clear is for ALL 16 million members worldwide. The outright FALSEHOODS in the letter are astounding, given the infallibility buildup he just constructed.

OUTRIGHT FALSE STATEMENTS INCLUDE:

1. Masks protect you from viruses
2. Social distancing protects you from viruses
3. Jab is safe
4. Jab is effective
5. Mass Jabbing the population is the ONLY way to end covid
6. Referring to covid as an unrelenting pandemic

Rasband then doubles down and triples down with his "I urge you to get jabbed" comments...with additional appeals to follow RMN. Then specifically says RMN's advice should SUPERCEDE the words of the African leaders.

This seven minute video is so damning. It is a plaintiffs DREAM COME TRUE. It proves Q15 gave medical advice to 16 million people. It proves that Q15 further pressured members to get the jab with appeals to authority with included guilt and shame for noncompliance. This medical advice was given with a KNOWN AT THE TIME...an untested, unproven, new mRNA tech which did not go well in previous animal trials, gene therapy drug...and many intelligent people including doctors worldwide (Barrington Declaration) were speaking out AGAINST it...including leaders in African nations.

We have to remember Q15 did not get it a little bit wrong here, a small percentage wrong, half wrong-half right...NO...they got it ALL wrong...as in 100% wrong...as in their advice got people injured and killed wrong.

And...as of 12-30-2022 not a hint of retraction, apology or even a warning of possible side effects (the CDC has even done this)...NO...just crickets.


This is NOT how God runs things!!!!!



@lemarque
Does the church leadership not know about the Nuremberg 2.0 trials that will be taking place in mid to late summer 2023? Someone needs to inform them so they can start working on damage control. (Not that it will slow the train wreck ahead of them.) I wonder too if the church's role in the vaccine push has even gotten on the radar of the trial lawyers.

https://redoubtnews.com/2022/01/16-defe ... ming-soon/

[Silver Pie]

You're kidding right?

So you want me to believe that their wholly-owned Beneficial Life sees data that shows a 40% increase in DEATH in working age people...this is like13 standard deviations out on the curve...as in NEVER EVER seen this kind of increase in death...and it's not covid...and it's ONLY after the clot-shot began.

Yet, the President of Beneficial Life doesn't brief Q15 on this once in 10,000 year event????

They know...don't kid yourself.

I know someone who used to work for the Church for many years (that person was in offices that presented info to the 12/15). They noticed that the employees were afraid to tell the Brethren anything they might not like. It is quite possible that the people from Beneficial Life who talk to the Brethren would be afraid to tell them that it looks like the jag is killing and maiming people.

[Lizzy60]

You're kidding right?

So you want me to believe that their wholly-owned Beneficial Life sees data that shows a 40% increase in DEATH in working age people...this is like13 standard deviations out on the curve...as in NEVER EVER seen this kind of increase in death...and it's not covid...and it's ONLY after the clot-shot began.

Yet, the President of Beneficial Life doesn't brief Q15 on this once in 10,000 year event????

They know...don't kid yourself.

I know someone who used to work for the Church for many years (that person was in offices that presented info to the 12/15). They noticed that the employees were afraid to tell the Brethren anything they might not like. It is quite possible that the people from Beneficial Life who talk to the Brethren would be afraid to tell them that it looks like the jag is killing and maiming people.

No one wants to be the messenger that gets shot.
However, if their death claims are skyrocketing like other insurance companies, and if their actuaries are discovering inconvenient facts as is happening elsewhere, the Q15 will know eventually.

[Silver Pie]

@lemarque
Does the church leadership not know about the Nuremberg 2.0 trials that will be taking place in mid to late summer 2023? Someone needs to inform them so they can start working on damage control. (Not that it will slow the train wreck ahead of them.) I wonder too if the church's role in the vaccine push has even gotten on the radar of the trial lawyers.

https://redoubtnews.com/2022/01/16-defe ... ming-soon/

Say what?


A bit from the link:

In all, the 16 defendants named in the legal filing are:

1 Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the NIAID
2 Dr. Peter Daszak, president of EcoHealth Alliance
3 Bill Gates
4 Melinda Gates
5 Albert Bourla, CEO of Pfizer
6 Stephane Bancel, CEO of Moderna
7 Pascal Soriot, CEO of AstraZeneca
8 Alex Gorsky, CEO of Johnson & Johnson
9 Tedros Adhanhom Ghebreyesus, director-general of the WHO
10 Boris Johnson, U.K. prime minister
11 Christopher Whitty, U.K. chief medical adviser
12 Matthew Hancock, former U.K. secretary of state for Health and Social Care
13 Medicines and Healthcare, current U.K. secretary of state for Health and Social Care
14 June Raine, U.K. chief executive of Medicines and Healthcare products
15 Dr. Rajiv Shah, president of the Rockefeller Foundation
16 Klaus Schwab, president of the World Economic Forum

The victims, on behalf of whom the complaint was filed, are “the peoples of the United Kingdom.” One of the seven applicants is Dr. Michael Yeadon, a former vice president and chief scientist of allergy and respiratory research at Pfizer.

At the end of 2020, he expressed deep concerns about the COVID jabs becoming mandatory, as he could find no medical rationale for their use. In 2021, as we all know, mandates were rolled out around the world. In April 2021, Yeadon went public with concerns that the shots were part of a depopulation agenda.

“I believe [COVID-19 booster shots] are going to be used to damage your health and possibly kill you. I can see no sensible interpretation other than a serious attempt at mass depopulation,” he said in a “Planet Lockdown” interview published in late April 2021.3

[Silver Pie]

No one wants to be the messenger that gets shot.

So true.

However, if their death claims are skyrocketing like other insurance companies, and if their actuaries are discovering inconvenient facts as is happening elsewhere, the Q15 will know eventually.

A person would think so. I think they'd have to be living under a rock to not eventually find this out.

[Lizzy60]

No one wants to be the messenger that gets shot.

So true.

However, if their death claims are skyrocketing like other insurance companies, and if their actuaries are discovering inconvenient facts as is happening elsewhere, the Q15 will know eventually.

A person would think so. I think they'd have to be living under a rock to not eventually find this out.

Ed Dowd, whose successful career has been all about numbers and statistics, is using his connections to publish the numbers of excess deaths. One of his sources is life insurance actuaries, but he is disappointed that they only publish their findings annually. That has been often enough in the past because deaths in a large enough sample remain almost constant. He is hearing that the average ago of death in the US may drop to around 65 soon. We will have given up almost 100 years of longevity gains in just a few years. Absolutely unprecedented.

Here is his book. You can read about him and his research without buying the book. He is also appearing on various podcasts.

https://www.amazon.com/Cause-Epidemic-S ... 132&sr=8-1

Amazon is out of stock but Mike Adams has them if anyone is interested.

https://www.brighteonbooks.com/

[Robin Hood]

Consider again what Elder Stevenson did with the Book of Mormon at a meeting with the NAACP. He indirectly called out parts of the Book of Mormon as racist. It is no longer the most correct book. This has led increasing numbers of members to conclude that parts of it are racist, presumably authored by Joseph Smith, and that it can only be selectively relied upon.

Actually, the BofM is not God, nor were the writers, translators & editors. They have flaws.

I bet you don't think that when Joseph Smith said the Book of Mormon was the most correct book he meant it didn't have flaws. How could it be the most correct book, then? I think it's because it's a book that came as directly as possible from God.

"Most correct" means it has fewer flaws than others. It is not a claim of perfection.

[SantaFe]

@lemarque
Does the church leadership not know about the Nuremberg 2.0 trials that will be taking place in mid to late summer 2023? Someone needs to inform them so they can start working on damage control. (Not that it will slow the train wreck ahead of them.) I wonder too if the church's role in the vaccine push has even gotten on the radar of the trial lawyers.

https://redoubtnews.com/2022/01/16-defe ... ming-soon/

Say what?


A bit from the link:

In all, the 16 defendants named in the legal filing are:

1 Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the NIAID
2 Dr. Peter Daszak, president of EcoHealth Alliance
3 Bill Gates
4 Melinda Gates
5 Albert Bourla, CEO of Pfizer
6 Stephane Bancel, CEO of Moderna
7 Pascal Soriot, CEO of AstraZeneca
8 Alex Gorsky, CEO of Johnson & Johnson
9 Tedros Adhanhom Ghebreyesus, director-general of the WHO
10 Boris Johnson, U.K. prime minister
11 Christopher Whitty, U.K. chief medical adviser
12 Matthew Hancock, former U.K. secretary of state for Health and Social Care
13 Medicines and Healthcare, current U.K. secretary of state for Health and Social Care
14 June Raine, U.K. chief executive of Medicines and Healthcare products
15 Dr. Rajiv Shah, president of the Rockefeller Foundation
16 Klaus Schwab, president of the World Economic Forum

The victims, on behalf of whom the complaint was filed, are “the peoples of the United Kingdom.” One of the seven applicants is Dr. Michael Yeadon, a former vice president and chief scientist of allergy and respiratory research at Pfizer.

At the end of 2020, he expressed deep concerns about the COVID jabs becoming mandatory, as he could find no medical rationale for their use. In 2021, as we all know, mandates were rolled out around the world. In April 2021, Yeadon went public with concerns that the shots were part of a depopulation agenda.

“I believe [COVID-19 booster shots] are going to be used to damage your health and possibly kill you. I can see no sensible interpretation other than a serious attempt at mass depopulation,” he said in a “Planet Lockdown” interview published in late April 2021.3

While I was writing my last post, a news article popped up on the right side of the screen. Sione Veikoso a BYU football player, passed away. RIP sir.

nypost.com/2022/12/31/byus-sione-veikoso-dies-in-ha…

[Lemarque]

While I was writing my last post, a news article popped up on the right side of the screen. Sione Veikoso a BYU football player, passed away. RIP sir.

nypost.com/2022/12/31/byus-sione-veikoso-dies-in-ha…

From a construction accident. Retaining wall collapse. Nothing to do with vaccination.

[InfoWarrior82]

You're kidding right?

So you want me to believe that their wholly-owned Beneficial Life sees data that shows a 40% increase in DEATH in working age people...this is like13 standard deviations out on the curve...as in NEVER EVER seen this kind of increase in death...and it's not covid...and it's ONLY after the clot-shot began.

Yet, the President of Beneficial Life doesn't brief Q15 on this once in 10,000 year event????

They know...don't kid yourself.

I know someone who used to work for the Church for many years (that person was in offices that presented info to the 12/15). They noticed that the employees were afraid to tell the Brethren anything they might not like. It is quite possible that the people from Beneficial Life who talk to the Brethren would be afraid to tell them that it looks like the jag is killing and maiming people.

No one wants to be the messenger that gets shot.
However, if their death claims are skyrocketing like other insurance companies, and if their actuaries are discovering inconvenient facts as is happening elsewhere, the Q15 will know eventually.

Imagine being that poor TBM that gets the job of telling the Prophet of God that he was wrong. Haha.

[tribrac]

Nobody gets excited if a chess player sacrifices a pawn.

CEOs layoff workers destroying the lives of employees.

A general sends men to die.

The church is not a brotherhood of equals, it is a hierarchy. So what are a few early deaths of mostly nobodies compared to accomplishing the organizational goals?


If you were in charge, in their position, what would you have done? Leader of a church, Praying to know if you should recommend the shot, knowing it had not been thoroughly tested but also knowing there will be significant political, business and influence costs if the church does not go along.

The church places a high value on its appearance among the ruling class, so the choice was clear.

[Rubicon]

Enhanced recall of biblical passages and other phraseology wasn't what was going on during the dictation . . . The Lord delivered words to him, even in the case of biblical quotations. First, we know that all the unfamiliar names were given to Joseph as words. Second, we know that any unfamiliar vocabulary items were given to Joseph as words.

I disagree that Joseph Smith was just a human fax machine and that God took over his brain and mouth in the dictation.

Third, we know that any unfamiliar phrasing, especially when it was old language – but not biblical or pseudo-biblical language – was given to Joseph as distinct wording.

We don't know this. This is the theory put forth by Royal Skousen and Stanford Carmack (the so-called "ghost committee" or Early Modern English theory), but it isn't very convincing, in my view. I think the archaic usages they insist are only from the 1500s were actually in use and percolating in New England in the 1820s.

Fourth, in the case of biblical passages, there are more than 500 differences from King James readings: complex and simple, large and small; so those passages were given to Joseph, already redacted.

When you say "given to Joseph," you are insisting that he read them off the stone --- or the God body-snatched his brain. A better view, in my opinion, is that Joseph dictated according to revelation to his "heart and mind" (which is what D&C 8 and 9 are about --- the translation process), and that he was led to utter key changes to large blocks of otherwise KJV passages.

This was a hot topic over a hundred years ago when B.H. Roberts went against your prevailing view that Joseph Smith simply read off the text that appeared in the seer stone in a new young men's manual (oh, the difference in manuals between then and now!). It's a long read, but he discussed it at length in "Defense of the Faith and the Saints." Here is my summary of the discussion:
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I think the best explanation of the available evidence for the translation method of the Book of Mormon is from B.H. Roberts in 1903-1906. I think it still remains superior, even to recent general authority „smart phone“ explanations (Joseph Smith read the Urim and Thummim or the seer stone like someone today reads a smart phone) or the Early Modern English theory of the last few years. Because of its length, here is a synopsis of it (originally printed in „Defense of the Faith and the Saints“). The Roberts theory was a major part of the young men’s manuals for 1903-1906, and received a lot of spirited pushback from members because it went against their views on how translation happened. Roberts also responded to responses and criticisms of his „manual theory“ (the theory put forth in the manual that he wrote). I don’t think many people today (including general authorities) are aware of Roberts’s arguments.
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1. Misconceptions about how the U&T (used by Roberts and in this synopsis to mean both the U&T and the seer stone, interchangeably) was used in translation cause problems. Primarily when people assume that the text was read off of them.

2. The only statement from Joseph Smith himself about the translation process is: „Through the medium of the Urim and Thummim, I translated the record by the gift and power of God.“ The only statement from Oliver Cowdery was „I wrote with my own pen the entire Book of Mormon (save a few pages), as it fell from the lips of the Prophet Joseph Smith, as he translated by the gift and power of God, by the means of the Urim and Thummim, or, as it is called by that book, ‚Holy Interpreters.‘“

3. David Whitmer said, „In the darkness, the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that would appear the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear.“

4. Whitmer also said (in an interview with a Kansas City newspaper): „He did not see the plates in translation, but would hold the interpreters to his eyes and cover his face with a hat, excluding all light, and before his eyes would appear what seemed to be parchment on which would appear the characters of the plates in a line at the top, and immediately below would appear the translation in English, which Smith would read to his scribe, who wrote it down exactly as it fell from his lips. The scribe would then read the sentence written, and if any mistakes had been made, the characters would remain visible to Smith until corrected, when they would fade from sight to be replaced by another line.“

5. Martin Harris said, „By aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the prophet and written by me, and when finished he would say ‚written,‘ and if correctly written, that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it appeared on the plates, precisely in the language then used.“

6. To test the criticisms of skeptics who were pestering him, claiming that Joseph Smith simply rattled off memorized lines, Harris switched out Joseph’s seer stone with a stone he found by the river that looked like it. „Martin! What is the matter? All is as dark as Egypt!“ Joseph exclaimed, and couldn’t translate. Harris’s countenance betrayed him, and Joseph asked him why he had switched it. „To stop the mouth of fools,“ Harris said.

7. Summary up to this point: David Whitmer and Martin Harris described the process as an automatic, mechanical one in which Joseph simply read off sentences from the U&T. Unlike Oliver Cowdery, who was the only other person with translation experience (from his abortive attempt at translation; Royal Skousen speculates that a certain section of Alma in the original manuscript is that very part, and illustrates small, fleeting success before Joseph Smith had to step in and finish the thought --- the only part in the manuscript where Joseph Smith’s handwriting appears), Whitmer and Harris erroneously projected their assumptions of what Joseph Smith saw in the U&T. Their descriptions of Smith’s actions that they could observe are in keeping with what others saw (Joseph dictated, the scribe read it back, and it was either corrected or stood as written, and dictation continued).

8. The problem with the „words appeared, and Joseph read them“ theory is that the original manuscript and first edition contain evidence that the Book of Mormon text contained grammar and usage errors, regional colloquialisms, and ideosyncracies of Joseph Smith’s speech.

9. David Whitmer reported an instance where Joseph had had an argument with Emma, and couldn’t translate at all. After praying in the orchard for an hour and apologizing to Emma, he was able to translate again. „He could do nothing save he was humble and faithful.“

10. When this is coupled with the description of the spiritual requirements of translation in D&C 8 and 9, it is clear that translation was not an automatic, mechanical process such as reading sentences off a stone. He had to be spiritually in tune, study it out in his mind, seek confirmation from God, and interpret the answer.

11. The apparent process of translating the Book of Abraham (Kirtland Egyptian Papers, Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar, etc.), supports this.

12. „There can be no doubt either but what the interpretation thus obtained was expressed in such language as the prophet could command, in such phraseology as he was master of and common to the time and locality where he lived; modified, of course, by the application of that phraseology to facts and ideas in the Nephite scriptures --- ideas new to him in many respects, and above the ordinary level of the prophet’s thinking; and also the phraseology was superior to that he ordinarily used, because of the inspiration of God that was upon him.“

13. Roberts quotes „The Annotated Bible“ and the Dean of Westminster and King Edward VII of England to show that this view (that prophets were not remote-controlled, entranced automatons in producing scripture) is also used by sectarians in defending the Bible. i.e., it is not unique to the Book of Mormon situation.

14. New Testament evidence that inspired utterances were written in „barbaric Greek;“ i.e., that grammatical and syntactical perfection are not a characteristic of scripture. Scripture is given in the idiom of the audience.

15. „There can be no reasonable doubt that had Joseph Smith and his associates been finished English scholars and the facts and ideas represented by the Nephite characters on the plates been given him by inspiration of God through the Urim and Thummim, those ideas would have been expressed in flawless English.“

16. A letter to President Joseph F. Smith was forwarded to Roberts for a response. The writer wanted an explanation for large sections of verbatim King James Bible passages in the Book of Mormon. Roberts: 1st --- It is a fact that there are lengthy passages from Isaiah and other sections of the Bible that closely rely on the KJV, when they are not outright verbatim. 2nd --- „It is a fact that no two persons will take the same manuscript and make translations from one language into another, and the language of the two translations be alike.“ Roberts mentions the brass plates as providing the Old Testament material (including the extra-canonical material from Zenock, Zeons, Neum, etc.), and that Jesus Himself provided other sections, such as Malachi. Mormon and Moroni also teach things, such as Paul’s teachings on charity, that closely mirror the New Testament.

[Here I depart from Roberts in specifics, while agreeing in general. He states that where the ideas expressed are so close to the KJV that it makes sense, Joseph used the KJV. I find witnesses of the translation in agreement that books and manuscripts were never used or present, so the KJV material had to have been provided in a „supernatural way:“ either visually, such as the „display screen in the U&T“ theory, or the „superhuman feats of memory“ theory (which is what I think. Lucy Smith reports that Joseph was the least inclined of her children to read. Reverend Lane preaching a sermon on James 1:5 spurred him to look it up and pray in the woods, leading to the First Vision. This changed him, in my view, as did Moroni’s visit, where Moroni quoted several scriptures and applied them to the present and future. I think from that point, he devoured the Bible, and when the time came to translate the Book of Mormon, the Spirit was able to „bring all things to his remembrance“ in a dramatic way].

17. Letters from members: #1 Your theory in the young men’s manuals contradicts Whitmer and Harris. Shouldn’t we side with the three witnesses? Roberts: The Harris statements are not at first-hand at all; they come through Edward Stevenson. Neither Harris nor Whitmer had any personal experience translating; they could only speak of what they observed, and they applied their own assumptions to those observations. Reiteration of the previous arguments about assuming that Joseph read off the stones being contrary to D&C 8 and 9 and making translation a passive, automatic process that makes God responsible for errors and ideosyncracies of spelling, grammar, and colloquialisms. Impossibility of translation being a one-to-one bringing over from one language to another (the translator has to make it make sense in the target language, which in Joseph Smith’s case, was upstate New York of the 1820s). The evidence points strongly away from a read text in favor of a text dictated after being pondered and expressed. „And, by the way, in passing, I want to ask those who stand up so stoutly for the vindication of what Messrs. Whitmer and Harris have chanced to say on the subject of translation—What about the Lord's description of the same thing in the Doctrine and Covenants? Are they not interested in vindicating that description?” Whitmer and Harris’s recollections also were not recorded and given until they were very advanced in age; they were not given contemporaneous or even near the translation period. A certain amount of memory phenomena are to be expected.

18. Regarding „literal translation,“ Roberts includes a photograph of a page from a literal Greek New Testament, with the Greek text, a literal „bringing over“ in English, and a translation in standard English. This shows, as he puts it, that „to speak of literal translation is to speak of literal nonsense.“ Roberts also quotes from the same source Paul’s address to Agrippa and 1 Peter 4 to show that the translator has to make it make sense in the target language, or he will simply confuse the audience and open himself and the work up to ridicule. The evidence points in the direction of a D&C 8 and 9 process, rather than Joseph reading a verbatim text. If there were a verbatim text, then the work of actually translating the Nephite record would already have been done; he merely read it off.

19. Another letter: „We don't think the writer of the Manual should answer this. Give us better authority." (i.e., give us a First Presidency response, not a response from the author of the manual (Elder Roberts). Roberts: Sorry, guys. The First Presidency referred your letter to me to respond to. You’re stuck with me.

„I think it proper at this point, also, to say, by way of personal explanation, and perhaps to some extent by way of defense against unkind criticisms that have been made of the writer of the Manual, because of the theory of translation therein advanced—I think it proper to say, I repeat, that the present writer did not upon his own responsibility, and without consultation with those somewhat the guardians of these matters, set forth the theory of the Manual on the translation of the Book of Mormon. Chapter VII of the Manual, the one setting forth the Manual theory of translation, was submitted to the First Presidency, and several of the Apostles met together to consider the chapter, and to listen to the reasons which, in the writer's opinion, demanded that such an explanation of the translation should be given. After listening to Chapter VII, and hearing the reasons for making such explanations therein contained, it was moved and carried that such chapter be published in the Manual, and it was published accordingly.

This statement is not made with a view of making the First Presidency and the Twelve, who were present and voted upon the subject, responsible for the ideas advanced; the motion then taken carried with it no such consequences. It meant only that the brethren then consulted were willing that the present writer should publish those views in the Young Men's Manual; but primarily he, the writer, stands responsible for the views there expressed—a responsibility, by the way, which he is very willing to carry; but he is anxious to have the Latter-day Saints understand, and especially the young men in Israel, that in setting forth the Manual theory of translating the Book of Mormon, the writer was not seeking to gratify his personal vanity by advancing some novel theory, and pushing it to the front regardless of the opinions of others, or the general interests of the work.”

“The theory of the Manual is having a bad effect upon our best Book of Mormon students."

“With all due respect to the gentleman's opinion, I desire to say to him that he is entirely mistaken. The "Manual theory" of translation is having no such effect; but, on the contrary, Book of Mormon students everywhere are rejoicing in the fact that the "Manual theory" of translation gives them a rational defense against the criticisms that are urged against [the Book of Mormon]."

[The Red Pill]

You're kidding right?

So you want me to believe that their wholly-owned Beneficial Life sees data that shows a 40% increase in DEATH in working age people...this is like13 standard deviations out on the curve...as in NEVER EVER seen this kind of increase in death...and it's not covid...and it's ONLY after the clot-shot began.

Yet, the President of Beneficial Life doesn't brief Q15 on this once in 10,000 year event????

They know...don't kid yourself.

I know someone who used to work for the Church for many years (that person was in offices that presented info to the 12/15). They noticed that the employees were afraid to tell the Brethren anything they might not like. It is quite possible that the people from Beneficial Life who talk to the Brethren would be afraid to tell them that it looks like the jag is killing and maiming people.

No one wants to be the messenger that gets shot.
However, if their death claims are skyrocketing like other insurance companies, and if their actuaries are discovering inconvenient facts as is happening elsewhere, the Q15 will know eventually.

Some thoughts...

If you are a life insurance company that had a 40% increase in deaths among the traditionally healthiest segment of the population...then you also had a 40% increase in claims PAID OUT...

I guarantee, timid messenger or not, the 40% revenue drop got the attention of Q15. They track every penny. They know exactly what's going on at Beneficial Life.