A Questioning of the Nature of this Reality. Shall we Begin?

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TheDuke
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Re: A Questioning of the Nature of this Reality. Shall we Begin?

Post by TheDuke »

FrankOne: you are denying the reality that there are many souls here being tested and learning. You see (claim above) they are automatons of some sort. This is the part that is wrong. Further, you see the end different than Jesus teaches (and JS, et al), that is my difference. In many ways any temporal existence is "false" like simulation but it isn't a simulation, god cannot use that to judge and test us. Sure, likely, he uses simulations of sorts to predict the future, but this is much different. And no, there is no perfect VR that would tie into your spirit and fool you completely. You can fool some people some of the time but you cannot fool all the people all the time. And it would defeat god's plan for our progression to fake our lives even though our lives here are set up to be specific to allow specific tests, it isn't fake. God would cease to be god if he lied and tried to fool us. Again, however, I agree with the general construct of a predefined, carefully crafted environment, just not a simulation. I mean heard of any found guilty of a sin in simulation? (of course we can rehash that old crap about what's in your mind is sin, but that is taken way out of context when twisted in LDS FF to say why we can be condemned by our thoughts only vs. thoughts leading to actions and defining the "intent" of our actions) IMO.

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FrankOne
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Re: A Questioning of the Nature of this Reality. Shall we Begin?

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TheDuke wrote: December 7th, 2022, 10:29 am FrankOne: you are denying the reality that there are many souls here being tested and learning. You see (claim above) they are automatons of some sort. This is the part that is wrong. Further, you see the end different than Jesus teaches (and JS, et al), that is my difference. In many ways any temporal existence is "false" like simulation but it isn't a simulation, god cannot use that to judge and test us. Sure, likely, he uses simulations of sorts to predict the future, but this is much different. And no, there is no perfect VR that would tie into your spirit and fool you completely. You can fool some people some of the time but you cannot fool all the people all the time. And it would defeat god's plan for our progression to fake our lives even though our lives here are set up to be specific to allow specific tests, it isn't fake. God would cease to be god if he lied and tried to fool us. Again, however, I agree with the general construct of a predefined, carefully crafted environment, just not a simulation. I mean heard of any found guilty of a sin in simulation? (of course we can rehash that old crap about what's in your mind is sin, but that is taken way out of context when twisted in LDS FF to say why we can be condemned by our thoughts only vs. thoughts leading to actions and defining the "intent" of our actions) IMO.
I understand your points.

My perspective differs from yours in many ways including the meaning of terms. A defining of terms:

Testing: My perspective is that this place is not a testing in such a way that you become judged by this test and then classified and then put into a set kingdom based on your score, forever. To me, the term "testing" has been used in religious teachings to motivate man to bettering himself. It is a motivation based in fear of "not making the grade" and it has worked well. . My understanding is that judgement is ongoing and consequence is meted out concurrently as well as futuristicly if what you do changes you, which changes your future existence, for as long as is necessary .........until we have become so refined and stripped of our natural self that we may re-enter the Kingdom of God.

This simulation or VR:

This is what and where we currently are aware of. It is our home. In truth, it doesn't matter if you call it real or a simulation because the result is the same. It still serves the same purpose in any regard. You speak in absolute terms of "this can't be a simulation" for your given reasons. You have a definite idea of this place and I won't argue your reasoning point by point because actually knowing what it is or isn't won't be beneficial at this time for the far majority.

One point that I will address is this one, which is of high importance to be able to take the final steps to return home:

you said: "I mean heard of any found guilty of a sin in simulation?"

Whether this is a simulation or not, Christ forgave ALL sin and until we accept that foundational truth, to our core....to the center of our very being....we can't return because it requires that we forgive ourselves and accept the atonement 100%. Not 99%. As long as we look at others and condemn them, we cannot forgive ourselves because we are entrenched in the idea of condemnation.

We put ourselves above those that we condemn as if we have proven to ourselves that we are closer to God....yet.... we inwardly 'know' that we are still so 'guilty' that we cannot abide the presence of God. The degree of condemnation that we mete out is the judgment of ourselves no matter what twist people put on the scripture "judge righteously". "If we must judge, judge righteously" is for those that are required to pass judgment on criminals etc to determine punishment on a PHYSICAL level . Condemn your neighbor and you condemn yourself because you do not understand the Atonement. Christ forgave your neighbors and you refuse to? These are facts. Yes, they are harsh facts whether we like them or not.

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TheDuke
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Re: A Questioning of the Nature of this Reality. Shall we Begin?

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Christ did not forgive all sin. That is a false narrative. Christ paid the price for the sins of those who repent and he paid the price for all non-sin transgressions (i.e. infermities) that we can not be honestly judged of. Also, we are not freely forgiven. Forgiveness is only free in its offering, but we must pay the price. We are no longer in debt of Satan but in Christ's debt. The payment doesn't hold us back but but is payed forward. It is part of eternal progression. We must overcome the sinful desires. We must obtain godly attributes. It makes little sense to think we can just expect to feel a bit of sorrow and ask Jesus to let us go on our way. It doesn't work that way. You need to understand the concepts of sin within life (easy to repent and change right now and overcome) and post-life effects of sin (or still missing godly attributes).

As far as testing, I guess we disagree. Joseph stated there is a law for every blessing, there is a need to show we are worthy of every blessing we get in the next life. How this is demonstrated seemingly varies by the law and the blessing. Some require ordinances (baptism, marriage), others by other means. but this world is a test. we are trying to learn about god, as that is eternal life to know god... and we are to prove we are worthy.... cannot prove without a metric and testing apparatus.

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FrankOne
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Re: A Questioning of the Nature of this Reality. Shall we Begin?

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TheDuke wrote: December 7th, 2022, 3:52 pm Christ did not forgive all sin. That is a false narrative. Christ paid the price for the sins of those who repent and he paid the price for all non-sin transgressions (i.e. infermities) that we can not be honestly judged of. Also, we are not freely forgiven. Forgiveness is only free in its offering, but we must pay the price. We are no longer in debt of Satan but in Christ's debt. The payment doesn't hold us back but but is payed forward. It is part of eternal progression. We must overcome the sinful desires. We must obtain godly attributes. It makes little sense to think we can just expect to feel a bit of sorrow and ask Jesus to let us go on our way. It doesn't work that way. You need to understand the concepts of sin within life (easy to repent and change right now and overcome) and post-life effects of sin (or still missing godly attributes).

As far as testing, I guess we disagree. Joseph stated there is a law for every blessing, there is a need to show we are worthy of every blessing we get in the next life. How this is demonstrated seemingly varies by the law and the blessing. Some require ordinances (baptism, marriage), others by other means. but this world is a test. we are trying to learn about god, as that is eternal life to know god... and we are to prove we are worthy.... cannot prove without a metric and testing apparatus.
We are not all that far away from agreeing on a few points because in those cases it's only a slight difference in semantics or perspective.

"Forgiveness is only free in its offering, but we must pay the price."
It is my understanding that the price has been paid by Christ.


"We must obtain godly attributes."
It is completely impossible to perfect the natural man , although many will certainly try for a very, very long time.

"We are no longer in debt of Satan but in Christ's debt."
It is my experience that debt has been done away with completely.

" It makes little sense to think we can just expect to feel a bit of sorrow and ask Jesus to let us go on our way."

This point is the underlying crux for why most would refute what I am conveying because it is true, but not in the way that most would consider. The minor work is to turn from sin and repent, which is necessary. The major work, which is typically never treated, is the work to let go of the vanity of this world and the vanity of ourselves. To let go of willfulness is THE work necessary to receive the forgiveness offered by Christ. The scriptures are replete with this requirement, yet almost no one addresses it. Almost no one wishes to engage a discussion on the process of becoming as a little child, which Christ clearly stipulated must happen before entering the kingdom of heaven

The work to accept the forgiveness of Christ, which is complete for all, is the giving up of our precious little selves which is here...being separate....being willful....being important ...finding fault with just about everything and everyone. <THIS is the very difficult work. Much more difficult than keeping the ten commandments or being diligent in repenting of outward errors .

I realize that we are not going to reach an accord on most of this, but I very much appreciate your input.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Shall we Begin?

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BeNotDeceived wrote: December 6th, 2022, 10:24 pm Click link in the center or try: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7D1TXzDy-I
Thanks. I just read "video unavailable" and didn't read the rest of the message (because, too many times, videos have been taken down).

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Enoch
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Re: A Questioning of the Nature of this Reality. Shall we Begin?

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FrankOne wrote: December 7th, 2022, 7:15 pm It is my understanding that the price has been paid by Christ.
It is my experience that debt has been done away with completely.

To let go of willfulness is THE work necessary to receive the forgiveness offered by Christ.
What is your understanding of the Atonement?
What is sin in your view?
How do we let go of willfulness?

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Enoch
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Re: A Questioning of the Nature of this Reality. Shall we Begin?

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FoxMammaWisdom wrote: December 4th, 2022, 1:21 am

This is a perfect place to start. The simulation we are in... Who created it... Etc.

Lucifer: "Adam, you have a new world here.... Yes, a new world. Patterned after the old one, where we used to live."

He goes on to explain that he's the God of this world, has powers and priesthoods here...etc.

Jesus also told us this is Lucifer's world, not his. Satan had power to tempt him because this is his world not Jesus world. (It would be pointless to tempt Jesus with his own world anyway.)

This understanding opens up a whole bunch of questions realizing we're in Lucifer's simulation, not the old one that was created for us before, where we used to live...🤔

So how long have we been spinning around in Lucifer's simulation here? How do we get out? Why is living in Lucifer's simulation part of something Heaven wanted us to go through? Or was it?

Maybe the war in heaven is happening NOW because we were pulled into Lucifer's simulation in this lone and dreary world - when he manipulated Adam and Eve to eat the fruit. And since this is Lucifer's world, he manipulated/tricked us into thinking that was Heaven's punishment, when we were actually kidnapped here after being manipulated to "fall"....

A cherubim and flaming sword placed to guard the way so Adam and Eve can't get out?! Maybe that's what the war in heaven is about, and our understanding of how the simulation should be going is a little skewed since Lucifer has been the one influencing our view here? 🤔

Also if we live in a simulation, we have to consider that a whole bunch of what we see my not be real and might be just a piece of the simulation. So which parts are simulation and which parts are real? How could we even know those answers from within the simulation unless we have a personal direct line to Heaven and can see and communicate outside the simulation for ourselves?🤔

I'm curious about your thoughts on this perspective and your thoughts on the simulation in that light.

❓🤓🤗
Was the first simulation the a spiritual body existence, or a terrestial existance?
Did Lucifer create his own version and trick us into falling into it?
When you say the war in heaven is happening now do you mean - God is trying to pull us out from Lucifer's simulation?
Was the cherubim/flaming sword put in by Lucifer to lock us in?
How do we develop a direct line to heaven passing this simulation?

Very interesting point of view it partially reminds me of the gnostics -

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FrankOne
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Re: A Questioning of the Nature of this Reality. Shall we Begin?

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edify wrote: December 8th, 2022, 11:01 pm
FrankOne wrote: December 7th, 2022, 7:15 pm It is my understanding that the price has been paid by Christ.
It is my experience that debt has been done away with completely.

To let go of willfulness is THE work necessary to receive the forgiveness offered by Christ.
What is your understanding of the Atonement?
What is sin in your view?
How do we let go of willfulness?
As the word is described in actual etymology, Atonement means "at one ment" . It's interesting that ment coincidentally means "mind". Christ became one with the Father of all 100%, not 99%. He did that which no one else could do. A few Gurus, Yogis, and Sages have gotten much closer than the average person, but were never able to take the final steps. Enoch is one that got very close. We, as spiritual brothers/sisters of Christ are one with him on a certain level, of which we are currently unaware. In his becoming one with the Father, he becomes the bridge for us to do the same. He is linked with us as well as with the Father which now enables us to return to becoming one as they are one.

Sin is a very difficult subject to engage because of the entrenched beliefs that are shared by most in all religions. Something to consider deeply is that sin to someone of one religion is not sin to someone of another. As an example, some religions teach that it is not a sin for a member to hurt or abuse someone of another religion. The foregoing being true, what then, is sin? Of course, the quick rebuttal might be: "Those in ignorance will not be judged for their sins". Hm.

So, Christians are supposedly harshly judged and condemned but those that are not Christians go to the other side pleading ignorance and let off with no punishment? A Christian works his whole life to better himself to conform to righteousness, but a Muslim lives as he will, according to his "false" perception and there is no judgement? The foregoing defies all common sense because it's not correct.

Strictly speaking, the word sin applies to doing something against what a religion teaches a person that 'God' has told their leaders. Committing a sin instills guilt. A Jew or Muslim feels guilty for eating pork and most would actually feel nauseated at the thought. Interesting, no? Some would become violent if they were tricked into eating it. hm. What does that say for all beliefs of all religions? How many wars have been fought over the DOCTRINES of religions. Specifically, the fighting occurs over their differing viewpoints of sin. To act against a doctrine is sin. Enemies form over the judgment that the other is living in sin and is angering their God. Can't justify war without believing that God is backing you up with his anger, right?

The subject of sin is akin to the subject of truth. In general terms that people understand, both are equally subjective in nature. Anything that is subjective is simply unreal. In an unreal world, everything is classified into different forms of subjectivity and each person somehow believes they are "right" in their own set of rules and can't help judging everyone else that doesn't hold the same guidebook. <This , of course, is simply irrational ...so what does that mean for the entire world? Everyone judging everyone all the time. It's a sort of mad house, but it DOES serve a purpose in time.

Letting go of willfulness is as long of a subject as how to become unreactive. The reason is that the process is slow. Each step on this path branches out to many other attached problems within the mind. We can choose to let go of one area that we are willful in and find that there are "reasons" why letting go of it would be painful, so we stop.

Willfulness is connected to selfishness and pride but the deepest connection is to fear. The fear of lack is a big one. The fear of lack drives will to take control to "get". How can we trust the Father to help us if we don't push to make money? So....we push and push some more. Some drive hard bargains, skew deals with people, take advantage of naivety and of course find justifications along the way.

Letting go of willfulness is done by replacing it with trust. Perfect beings trust the Father implicitly. We are here because we chose to trust ourselves by exercising our own flawed willpower. But...do not forget, this world is a perfect experience and everyone does go home eventually. Not one will be lost because the Father is perfect and he created us perfectly.

As I said, the subject of letting go of willfulness is a very long subject but there is an excellent help on this topic for anyone that truly wishes to find peace in this life along with the certainty of your own identity of being an immortal child of the Father. This help is found in a book "Letting Go" by David Hawkins. The entire book is like a finding a field of diamonds.

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Re: A Questioning of the Nature of this Reality. Shall we Begin?

Post by FrankOne »

since I've been waiting for teotwawki since I was 8 yrs old, I thought I'd post this as a side track of interest. I found it on another forum and clipped the parts that I generally find somewhat factual. The end advice though is absolutely true. That which kills people in the end times will be fear and actions motivated by fear. Fearful choices always end badly.

===========================

Now this is where it gets really weird, so hang in there …

- there is some sort of really BIG change wave soon to pass through our solar system and Earth
- this wave, or this pulse, is capable of changing the very ‘frequency’ of our space-time, and nobody is sure what the outcomes will be

- some models show that this ‘frequency Earth’ continues, (but with most humans gone as a result of quakes, waves and no food) and that a duplicate Earth but of a higher reality frequency emerges. Some have referred to it as a sort of birth, but it is more like a cell dividing, but with the new cell being in a separate dimension.


- when this happens is not clear, but when it does happen - the Earth’s magnetic field will have collapsed. Some models suggest that full MEMORY will come into human brains. Many will go mad with the full realisation of everything. Others will rejoice.

- there are many species who are here to assist humans - in fact lots of them are what you would call our ancient ancestors - humans who evolved here on Earth long ago and left to travel the stars. This was many millions of years ago. There are other ET species who have racial connections here on Earth, - the australian aborigines and those from one of the Seven Sisters for example.
My point here is that the skies will be filled with craft helping humans when the cataclysms strike. They will take you to safe havens and you will be given choices of where to go next. (edited to add by FrankOne: Be very careful of who you choose to follow. It is likely that there will be many choices at the time just before total destruction)


The next piece of info is going to sound really weird, but the most important thing you need to know for the future is this:

DO NOT BE IN FEAR.

The frequency of fear will destroy your body, and it will slow down everything for everybody. If you want to make it better for yourself and everyone you love - start imaging TSHTF now, and imagine yourself being excited, not terrified.

Consciousness is prime - what you perceive as reality, whether physical, astral or heavenly - is a manufactured illusion. The higher you manufactures it.

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FrankOne
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Re: A Questioning of the Nature of this Reality. Shall we Begin?

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Here is a clip from someone that states that this message is from God. I go to that site because I like dreams/inspiration that refer to the future, but only about 1 out of 30 have content that falls within my perspective of "possibly true". It's worth it to me to sort them. The portion below applies to the subject of this thread. The subject of letting your own will/strength go. The entire message is found at: https://444prophecynews.com/the-seasons ... e-roxanne/

=============================

"Allow me to teach you, allow me to speak, allow me to steer your lives, guide every choice. For many, your very lives depend on it.

Prayer keeps you safe, prayers smooths out your days, prayer saves those souls which most deem hopeless. (WFA note: Then he mentions the Lord’s prayer, remember to say the Lord’s prayer, Mathew 6:9-13).

Even after everything which has taken place, many fail to understand the power of prayer. The enemy wishes to neuter my people through churches which seem to be mine. Talk is cheap, they deny my power. They deny your power. They deny the power I have placed within those who are truly mine.

Test, tests and more tests. Some are pure annoyance, some are life threatening, some are in between. Have you asked me about these? Have you figured out I use circumstances to show you what sin still hides within your heart’s? Do you see what you still desperately cling to?

Allow me to remove all things which are not of me and I will give you rest. Don’t you find it exhausting to live your lives in your own strength? Have you taken even a moment with me?

Many of your priorities are out of alignment with me. If you would only put me first, I would show you a better way to live

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FrankOne
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Re: A Questioning of the Nature of this Reality. Shall we Begin?

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the following is a repost of mine from another thread . I believe it fits this thread well.
------------------------

It is my hope that a real ordinance will be instituted which provides a quantum leap for those ready to take a firm step forward.

It's a bit of a lengthy quote but I think most will find it worth the read . It's a part of the history of the Sikh faith and what I believe to be a true ordinance:
===============================================

"The day dawned clear and bright for the Baisakhi celebration of 1699. The Sikhs were in a festive mood because Guru Gobind Rai had proclaimed that all should come together at Anandpur Sahib.

The crowds gathered in anticipation in front of the Guru's tent. They expected to hear a stirring speech. No one was prepared for the sight of the Guru when he did appear. He was dressed in his royal blue uniform with his arms girded about him; his eyes were so intense that no one dared to look at him. He drew his sword and shouted, "I need a head!" People could not believe their ears. The Guru wanted to kill one of his beloved Sikhs?

Again the cry rang out, and again. Many people ran away in fear and horror. But one man, Daya Ram, rose and said, "O beloved Guru, my head has always been yours." The Guru took him into the tent and came out with a sword dripping with blood. Again he asked for a head. Dharm Das came up and said, "Take my head, O dear one." Once again, the Guru took him into his tent and emerged with a dripping sword. For the third time, he asked the question. Mokum Chand bowed before his Master. The Sikhs began to think that he was going to kill them all. Two more times the call went out, and two more devoted Sikhs, Himmat and Sahib Chand, stepped forward to fill the void. The Guru then went into the tent himself.

Suddenly, the Guru and the five appeared, as if from the dead. He had dressed them and himself in beautiful golden clothes so that they shone like the sun. To them he said, "You and I are one and the same." The Guru sat the five near him and said, "Guru Nanak had only one devoted Sikh, Angad. In my time there are five Sikhs who are totally devoted to the Guru. They shall lay the foundation for the new Sikh faith." The gathering cheered the five for their courage. The Guru then said, "From this day on the Khalsa, the Pure Ones, will be baptized by the Amrit. They shall become Singhs and Kaurs."
=========================

now , over 500 yrs later, the understanding of the Amrit and it's preparation is lost and has become a RITUAL. It is possible that the only ones that ever received the true "ordinance of Amrit" were the first five.

I've talked with a few Sikhs and I was impressed with their way of understanding this world and the world hereafter.

There are many slightly differing accounts of this moment in Sikh history. I couldn't find the one that I had read years ago where the Guru didn't call for "A head" , he called for a sacrifice. Also, each volunteer that entered could be heard crying out in pain from whatever had happened. I believe that both the points above are very pertinent to what the cleansing is. My perception is that it is the final step of the cleansing of the natural man. The white stone mentioned by Christ. It is my hope, because without it, I can't believe that more than a handful of people in the entire world will be ready for Christ's return. I certainly am not ready.

wiki history. Note the word "baptism":

Guru Nanak founded the Sikh faith in the Punjab region of the northern part of the Indian subcontinent, and present-day Pakistan, in the end of fifteenth century. He was first of the ten Sikh Gurus. The tenth, Guru Gobind Singh, formalised its practices on 13 April 1699.[1] He baptised five Sikh people from different parts of India, with different social backgrounds, to form Khalsa (ਖ਼ਾਲਸਾ). Those five Beloved Ones, the Pañj Piārē, then baptised him into the Khalsa fold.[2] This gives the order of Khalsa a history of around 500 years.

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Silver Pie
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Re: A Questioning of the Nature of this Reality. Shall we Begin?

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Expert proposes a method for telling if we all live in a computer program (sciencealert.com)

Some excerpts:
. . .

This leads to the extraordinary possibility that our entire Universe might in fact be a computer simulation.

The idea is not that new. In 1989, the legendary physicist, John Archibald Wheeler, suggested that the Universe is fundamentally mathematical and it can be seen as emerging from information. He coined the famous aphorism "it from bit".

In 2003, philosopher Nick Bostrom from Oxford University in the UK formulated his simulation hypothesis. This argues that it is actually highly probable that we live in a simulation.

That's because an advanced civilization should reach a point where their technology is so sophisticated that simulations would be indistinguishable from reality, and the participants would not be aware that they were in a simulation.

Physicist Seth Lloyd from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in the US took the simulation hypothesis to the next level by suggesting that the entire Universe could be a giant quantum computer.
Empirical evidence

There is some evidence suggesting that our physical reality could be a simulated virtual reality rather than an objective world that exists independently of the observer.

Any virtual reality world will be based on information processing. That means everything is ultimately digitized or pixelated down to a minimum size that cannot be subdivided further: bits.

This appears to mimic our reality according to the theory of quantum mechanics, which rules the world of atoms and particles. It states there is a smallest, discrete unit of energy, length and time.

Similarly, elementary particles, which make up all the visible matter in the Universe, are the smallest units of matter. To put it simply, our world is pixelated.

The laws of physics that govern everything in the Universe also resemble computer code lines that a simulation would follow in the execution of the program. Moreover, mathematical equations, numbers, and geometric patterns are present everywhere – the world appears to be entirely mathematical.

Another curiosity in physics supporting the simulation hypothesis is the maximum speed limit in our Universe, which is the speed of light. In a virtual reality, this limit would correspond to the speed limit of the processor, or the processing power limit.
More at the link, including a heading called "Possible experiments."

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FrankOne
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Re: A Questioning of the Nature of this Reality. Shall we Begin?

Post by FrankOne »

Silver Pie wrote: December 10th, 2022, 4:10 pm Expert proposes a method for telling if we all live in a computer program (sciencealert.com)

Some excerpts:

Empirical evidence

There is some evidence suggesting that our physical reality could be a simulated virtual reality rather than an objective world that exists independently of the observer.

Any virtual reality world will be based on information processing. That means everything is ultimately digitized or pixelated down to a minimum size that cannot be subdivided further: bits.

This appears to mimic our reality according to the theory of quantum mechanics, which rules the world of atoms and particles. It states there is a smallest, discrete unit of energy, length and time.

Similarly, elementary particles, which make up all the visible matter in the Universe, are the smallest units of matter. To put it simply, our world is pixelated.

The laws of physics that govern everything in the Universe also resemble computer code lines that a simulation would follow in the execution of the program. Moreover, mathematical equations, numbers, and geometric patterns are present everywhere – the world appears to be entirely mathematical.

Another curiosity in physics supporting the simulation hypothesis is the maximum speed limit in our Universe, which is the speed of light. In a virtual reality, this limit would correspond to the speed limit of the processor, or the processing power limit.
More at the link, including a heading called "Possible experiments."
very interesting. i have often wondered if the matrix could actually be proven to be so. There does seem to be a 'cut off point' for many parameters of matter/energy/velocity as there would be in a computer program. They don't fade off incrementally to nothing.

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Silver Pie
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Re: A Questioning of the Nature of this Reality. Shall we Begin?

Post by Silver Pie »

I"ve been hearing for a while now that we could be living in a matrix. That "The Matrix is real" - but without the evil robotic/computer overlords.

It makes sense to me that God would create a world especially for us. We enter into bodies. In programs, people put on gear to virtually enter a world. While we're here, everything is real. The pain is real. The confusion is real. The fight is real. But if we can transcend this place (much like Neo did) and see the true reality of the simulation, we have a leg up. We have an advantage that can help us deal with this simulation.

When I read the statement about nothing real can be harmed, what I see is that "real" equals something that lasts for eternity. Our mortal bodies are temporary. The pain is temporary (unless we hold onto it, as with a cart rope, and refuse to let go).

One area in which I differ is that I completely believe that the choices we make here can and do create our space in eternity, after this place is gone. If we are angry and vindictive when we die, that spirit continues with us. If multiple mortal probations is real (going through mortal experiences each time a new planet is created/recreated until we reach a point where we are at a level where we can permanently escape - unless, like Jesus and many prophets, we return to a telestial world on a rescue mission), then we are given the chance to improve further.

I don't think there's a guarantee that we will overcome, but I do think - if mmp is real - that those who deserve hell/telestial glory (see D&C 76 for a description of that; some of those have only followed a prophet, and not committed what we would call any great sin), keep returning to try again (unless they give up and tell God they don't want to try anymore).

I also believe the scriptures when they say there is a place of hell, of deep regret (we judge ourselves) - and that it is between death and the creation of a new telestial planet/simulation for people to try again. So the idea that we are given endless mortalities that can help us overcome does not mean we avoid a place of hell if it is what we deserve by our choices here.

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FrankOne
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Re: A Questioning of the Nature of this Reality. Shall we Begin?

Post by FrankOne »

Silver Pie wrote: December 10th, 2022, 5:13 pm

One area in which I differ is that I completely believe that the choices we make here can and do create our space in eternity, after this place is gone. If we are angry and vindictive when we die, that spirit continues with us. If multiple mortal probations is real (going through mortal experiences each time a new planet is created/recreated until we reach a point where we are at a level where we can permanently escape - unless, like Jesus and many prophets, we return to a telestial world on a rescue mission), then we are given the chance to improve further.

I don't think there's a guarantee that we will overcome, but I do think - if mmp is real - that those who deserve hell/telestial glory (see D&C 76 for a description of that; some of those have only followed a prophet, and not committed what we would call any great sin), keep returning to try again (unless they give up and tell God they don't want to try anymore).

I also believe the scriptures when they say there is a place of hell, of deep regret (we judge ourselves) - and that it is between death and the creation of a new telestial planet/simulation for people to try again. So the idea that we are given endless mortalities that can help us overcome does not mean we avoid a place of hell if it is what we deserve by our choices here.
I don't think we disagree on the point of our choices go on with us which creates our destinies in eternity. The only difference would be the definition of "eternity". At some point, we become perfect as Christ is perfect and we return home to the Father. We've all got a long time before we return.

You've brought up some interesting points. One of them is the time between physical death and our next experience, whether it is in a physical body or not, we lack a great deal of experience which will have to go through ...somewhere.

I was avoiding, to some degree, the subject of the period of "life after death" because it's a sticky one. I do not have knowledge of that "place" but something that I have been given to understand is that our Ego does go with us, the positive and the negative. This is a mysterious thing because it implies that the 'afterlife' is not what some have said it will be. What that place is, is highly debatable. It appears to me that it is another phase of the Matrix itself.

The after life is a place of settling out what we have done in this life. For many, it is a rehabilitation period to prepare for the next phase of our existence. It is reasonable and likely that MMP is a true principle. The afterlife is not a place of being found in a book, your sins counted, with a decree of judgment made on your forever existence. I don't know this from understanding the place itself , but from people that have passed on.

If at any interval of time, we are in "hell" it is simply where we literally choose to be. We ALWAYS are where we belong. Injustice cannot exist. .There is no angry God punishing us. Judgment comes from us.

Hell could simply be being born in downtown Detroit and raised in poverty, stealing to survive, being hooked on heroin, being beaten to a pulp and dying in a gutter. The afterlife following that experience would be an ah hah moment, would it not?

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Silver Pie
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Re: A Questioning of the Nature of this Reality. Shall we Begin?

Post by Silver Pie »

I think it is Christ's desire to save us all - to whatever degree we are willing - and it might take eons and eons.

I also think that each life is incredibly tailored to what each person needs to learn and needs to improve. So much more than a simplified "get a body" and "follow Christ". There may be people not yet ready to follow him, but still fulfill their reason for being here because they accomplish the advancement that was intended.
We ALWAYS are where we belong. Injustice cannot exist.
I think you are right. We may not feel like we are where we belong, but we don't remember anything about the before time. We don't necessarily know what is justice and what is injustice because we are viewing it inside this place, with our learned paradigms and not from the perspective of eternity.
There is no angry God punishing us. Judgment comes from us.
Totally. Even Joseph Smith is reported to have said that. And the Book of Mormon also. "We would be more comfortable with the damned souls in hell than dwelling with a just God." And God is doing nothing. He is just being himself.

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Silver Pie
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Re: A Questioning of the Nature of this Reality. Shall we Begin?

Post by Silver Pie »

I like this quote - particularly the parts I've bolded. It seems to fit into this discussion.
The Lord cares about everything, everywhere, all the time. And we are in an extraordinarily delicate balance—everywhere, everything that goes on. You may think your life doesn’t matter. However, your life reverberates everywhere—what you do, what you choose, how you live. Sodom would have been spared had there been a handful more to leaven. You’re supposed to be the leaven! You’re supposed to be the preservative. What you do, how you fight against individual compromise, what you do to hold on within yourself—however faint and flickering that candle is—everything you do to hold onto that matters! Everywhere—in the whole world!

God intends to re-establish the civilization on the other side of the Second Coming that will finally be a civilization in which men are at peace with one another, and men are at peace with nature. And that accomplishment needs to be achieved with a population of people that He preserves, that He has watched over, and that He intends to use to rebuild His kingdom on Earth. So, don’t think—wherever you are—that you’re not in plain sight of the Lord and that the Lord isn’t keenly aware of you, with an intention to include you in what His future plans are—because God is more aware of you individually than maybe you are even of Him.
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Letfreedumbring
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Re: A Questioning of the Nature of this Reality. Shall we Begin?

Post by Letfreedumbring »

Is the veil as we have been taught?

I would say no. The veil exists and its general function on earth anyone can understand.
Yet, as to its operations and complexity - I think we would be both astounded and unable to comprehend it.

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FrankOne
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Re: A Questioning of the Nature of this Reality. Shall we Begin?

Post by FrankOne »

.
We ALWAYS are where we belong. Injustice cannot exist.
We may not feel like we are where we belong, but we don't remember anything about the before time. We don't necessarily know what is justice and what is injustice because we are viewing it inside this place, with our learned paradigms and not from the perspective of eternity.
There is no angry God punishing us. Judgment comes from us.
Totally. Even Joseph Smith is reported to have said that. And the Book of Mormon also. "We would be more comfortable with the damned souls in hell than dwelling with a just God." And God is doing nothing. He is just being himself.
[/quote]

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i messed up the format .....again.. My responses are below the line

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thank you very much for the brilliant observation of "we may not feel like it is where we belong". This creates the reasoning of many that "this is a prison" or that "my life is unfair". This time/place that we are now in , i believe, is very unique in that the entire gamut is present. The spectrum of absolutely "evil" to absolutely "good" with the bulk being somewhere in the middle. I speculate that there are worlds that are filled with those of a particular level. Hence, the places called "hell" as well as "heaven".

It is always refreshing to me to find others that share the same perspective. Those words of JS are informative and in my opinion, spot on.

And the truth which would be bothersome to most brought a big smile to my face, as the truth tends to do. "God is doing nothing. He is just being himself." :) We are the only responsible party for our time/place/state. Although, I do speculate that there are "Lords" that are active/reactive within this place but they are not the Father/Creator. The planet does need a manager. In general terms, this is a mad house that is about to be set in order for a higher curriculum.

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FrankOne
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Re: A Questioning of the Nature of this Reality. Shall we Begin?

Post by FrankOne »

Silver Pie wrote: December 10th, 2022, 6:31 pm I like this quote - particularly the parts I've bolded. It seems to fit into this discussion.
. So, don’t think—wherever you are—that you’re not in plain sight of the Lord and that the Lord isn’t keenly aware of you, with an intention to include you in what His future plans are—because God is more aware of you individually than maybe you are even of Him.
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I love what is said above. It lightens me. Thanks. :)

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Re: A Questioning of the Nature of this Reality. Shall we Begin?

Post by Thinker »

Belief in a Heavenly Father & Mother loving us individually with pure unconditional love especially in a world of choice and opposition, is probably one of the most true things, or at least a healthy, inspiring and uplifting belief.

Belief in determinism or some type of simulation seems to promote gaslighting, psychological warfare and a lack of responsibility (evil).

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FrankOne
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Re: A Questioning of the Nature of this Reality. Shall we Begin?

Post by FrankOne »

Thinker wrote: December 11th, 2022, 9:30 pm Belief in a Heavenly Father & Mother loving us individually with pure unconditional love especially in a world of choice and opposition, is probably one of the most true things, or at least a healthy, inspiring and uplifting belief.

Belief in determinism or some type of simulation seems to promote gaslighting, psychological warfare and a lack of responsibility (evil).
Our Creator(s) love us unconditionally, always , without exception. A belief in a changeable and whimsical God binds us in chains to guilt for never being able to measure up....never. Some think that God gets angry at us or cries for us. This would mean that we can control God. He feels good when we praise him or follow his commandments, yet he feels bad and depressed when we don't obey? <That is a silly thought. With 7 billion people on the planet, he would be a basket case not knowing how to REACT to each individuals choices of obedience/disobedience.

The Father is completely unreactive because he is wholly loving with perfect understanding of us. This is the good news (Gospel) of Jesus Christ. The Father only knows to radiate love. He doesn't receive negative emotions . When someone cries out to him with sincerity, he shines on that person with the gifts of the spirit. When someone disobeys, he simply observes it without reaction....waiting for a sincere prayer which opens the individual to receiving his love and light. The Father just shines out like the sun unceasingly and we are the only reason that we can't feel it.

It really is a matter of perspective. It puts all responsibility on the person experiencing this place. There's no one to blame but us. There's no angry God, just a loving Father. He looks at as with a smile, knowing that our experience is of our choice and that no real part of us can be harmed, only our attached illusions which all need to be removed before we can return to him....by our choice. This removes guilt and replaces it with stark responsibility for our choices.

What we do brings us pain or peace. If it brings us peace, it is of our true nature. The guilt and fear doesn't need to be a part in this equation because we learn from our own actions and make new choices based upon observations of how we feel. Hurt someone, you feel hurt. Lie and you feel insecure. Condemn someone and you feel dark inside. Do for others, and you feel light. Act in charity and your feet are lightened. Let go of the world and worldliness and you get closer to the Father and you will FEEL it.

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Enoch
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Re: A Questioning of the Nature of this Reality. Shall we Begin?

Post by Enoch »

FrankOne wrote: December 12th, 2022, 5:17 pm Our Creator(s) love us unconditionally, always , without exception. A belief in a changeable and whimsical God binds us in chains to guilt for never being able to measure up....never. Some think that God gets angry at us or cries for us. This would mean that we can control God. He feels good when we praise him or follow his commandments, yet he feels bad and depressed when we don't obey? <That is a silly thought. With 7 billion people on the planet, he would be a basket case not knowing how to REACT to each individuals choices of obedience/disobedience.

The Father is completely unreactive because he is wholly loving with perfect understanding of us. This is the good news (Gospel) of Jesus Christ. The Father only knows to radiate love. He doesn't receive negative emotions . When someone cries out to him with sincerity, he shines on that person with the gifts of the spirit. When someone disobeys, he simply observes it without reaction....waiting for a sincere prayer which opens the individual to receiving his love and light. The Father just shines out like the sun unceasingly and we are the only reason that we can't feel it.


Very interesting - I've been exposed to this idea various times - that there is no way that God could experience negative emotions - In scripture God is presented in various ways almost like to opposite characters, in the old testament a god of various negative emotions like anger or jealousy while the God of the Savior is more akin to what you are presenting. I haven't fully resolved it in my mind but it does seem 'silly' that a being so advanced would emote in that way.

Don't know if you served a spanish mission but in this video a man describes a visit from Jesus whom he also names Michael - he talks about the nature of God in the way you describe -

[youtube]https://youtu.be/UAXRp6NMTNo[/youtube]
FrankOne wrote: December 12th, 2022, 5:17 pm It really is a matter of perspective. It puts all responsibility on the person experiencing this place. There's no one to blame but us. There's no angry God, just a loving Father. He looks at as with a smile, knowing that our experience is of our choice and that no real part of us can be harmed, only our attached illusions which all need to be removed before we can return to him....by our choice. This removes guilt and replaces it with stark responsibility for our choices.

What we do brings us pain or peace. If it brings us peace, it is of our true nature. The guilt and fear doesn't need to be a part in this equation because we learn from our own actions and make new choices based upon observations of how we feel. Hurt someone, you feel hurt. Lie and you feel insecure. Condemn someone and you feel dark inside. Do for others, and you feel light. Act in charity and your feet are lightened. Let go of the world and worldliness and you get closer to the Father and you will FEEL it.
I really liked how you described here, it being our responsibility how we experience and give meaning to life. Also the 'mirror' effect of what we do reflects back at us.

Can you explain a bit more on getting 'getting closer to the father and you will feel it'? Or what roles feeling/emotions play, or if they differ, in your view in revelation?

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FrankOne
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Re: A Questioning of the Nature of this Reality. Shall we Begin?

Post by FrankOne »

edify wrote: December 12th, 2022, 10:14 pm
FrankOne wrote: December 12th, 2022, 5:17 pm Our Creator(s) love us unconditionally, always , without exception. A belief in a changeable and whimsical God binds us in chains to guilt for never being able to measure up....never. Some think that God gets angry at us or cries for us. This would mean that we can control God. He feels good when we praise him or follow his commandments, yet he feels bad and depressed when we don't obey? <That is a silly thought. With 7 billion people on the planet, he would be a basket case not knowing how to REACT to each individuals choices of obedience/disobedience.

The Father is completely unreactive because he is wholly loving with perfect understanding of us. This is the good news (Gospel) of Jesus Christ. The Father only knows to radiate love. He doesn't receive negative emotions . When someone cries out to him with sincerity, he shines on that person with the gifts of the spirit. When someone disobeys, he simply observes it without reaction....waiting for a sincere prayer which opens the individual to receiving his love and light. The Father just shines out like the sun unceasingly and we are the only reason that we can't feel it.


Very interesting - I've been exposed to this idea various times - that there is no way that God could experience negative emotions - In scripture God is presented in various ways almost like to opposite characters, in the old testament a god of various negative emotions like anger or jealousy while the God of the Savior is more akin to what you are presenting. I haven't fully resolved it in my mind but it does seem 'silly' that a being so advanced would emote in that way.

Don't know if you served a spanish mission but in this video a man describes a visit from Jesus whom he also names Michael - he talks about the nature of God in the way you describe -

[youtube]https://youtu.be/UAXRp6NMTNo[/youtube]
FrankOne wrote: December 12th, 2022, 5:17 pm It really is a matter of perspective. It puts all responsibility on the person experiencing this place. There's no one to blame but us. There's no angry God, just a loving Father. He looks at as with a smile, knowing that our experience is of our choice and that no real part of us can be harmed, only our attached illusions which all need to be removed before we can return to him....by our choice. This removes guilt and replaces it with stark responsibility for our choices.

What we do brings us pain or peace. If it brings us peace, it is of our true nature. The guilt and fear doesn't need to be a part in this equation because we learn from our own actions and make new choices based upon observations of how we feel. Hurt someone, you feel hurt. Lie and you feel insecure. Condemn someone and you feel dark inside. Do for others, and you feel light. Act in charity and your feet are lightened. Let go of the world and worldliness and you get closer to the Father and you will FEEL it.
I really liked how you described here, it being our responsibility how we experience and give meaning to life. Also the 'mirror' effect of what we do reflects back at us.

Can you explain a bit more on getting 'getting closer to the father and you will feel it'? Or what roles feeling/emotions play, or if they differ, in your view in revelation?
As we age, we lose the lightness a little every year. Just think about how much energy and vitality you had when you were 16. You can remember that clearly in comparison to now. As you get closer to the Father, that lightness and vitality increases , more and more youthful. Our true nature has two functions at this time. One is to be aware. We are aware of what our body feels and our mind thinks. We can create new thoughts in our minds by choice, but we are not the mind nor the thoughts which typically occupy the mind.

The fallen condition was the choice to have a mind where we could be separate from the Father. That mind/bio computer design is not of the Father's creation, it is ours, with help from others. Feelings and emotions are directly linked to the mind. If you have programmed your mind with negative ideas, you will feel heavy and lethargic because the mind controls the physiology of the body and controls the chemistry which we then 'feel' and experience.

The more positive you are, the better you feel because the mind releases chemicals/hormones to make you feel good and cause the body to be healthy. The mind is your judge and metes out punishment and reward. Emotions are always a product of perspective. If you think the world is unfair, you will feel a negative emotion because your mind is creating the world that you DECIDE IT IS. You make the choices and the mind ALWAYS OBEYS and then does it's part to give you recompense.

You are the master. You control the mind and the body with your choices. When you perceive a threat, you feel fear. The feeling is created by the mind releasing the chemistry in the body and then you sensing the result. Threats don't exist in reality, only within "this place" and more specifically in your mind, which YOU programmed into existence. Observing the differing characters of people and the way that each reacts completely differently to the same circumstance is a simple evidence of the highly subjective nature of emotion. None of them are real. The only real feeling is the love of the Father. When you feel it, you will know it.

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FrankOne
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Re: A Questioning of the Nature of this Reality. Shall we Begin?

Post by FrankOne »

edify wrote: December 12th, 2022, 10:14 pm

Don't know if you served a spanish mission but in this video a man describes a visit from Jesus whom he also names Michael - he talks about the nature of God in the way you describe -

[youtube]https://youtu.be/UAXRp6NMTNo[/youtube]

yes, I speak spanish
thanks, watching it now.

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