Flat Earth

[h_p]

I'm not saying to credit anything I say. You are free to consider me an idiot and I won't take any offense to it. I'm just asking you to consider what JS's translation says. Let the English stand on its own as written.

Do you read it as saying all the stars and the entire firmament are underneath the earth's waters? Who cares what shape the earth is, the question is whether the Lord told the truth when he gave us the creation accounts.

Feel free to believe the heliocentric model, but at least explain how the earth's waters are above the big dipper, Andromeda, and the entire Milky Way. Do you really believe a future deep space mission would go past the Milky Way and then run into the earth's waters? If not, the creation account is flat out wrong. Are you comfortable with JS saying, well my intentions were right, even though I was completely wrong?

For what it's worth, I don't see any water above the big dipper, and you don't either.

And just want to be clear: I don't consider you an idiot. I understand where you're coming from. I freely admit that Genesis and the PoGP give a flat-earth description of the creation. Fair enough. You're taking the Bible and PoGP as literal truth and an accurate account of how the universe is laid out, and everything else must align itself to that foundational principal.

But I take it the other direction, kind of the way Isaiah says to do: a person who claims to be a prophet makes a statement. If that statement is verifiable, then verify it. If it's false, then obviously the so-called prophet is wrong. I'm not going to stand on my head and cross my eyes for the rest of my life just to force some words on a page to be true, and brew up some centuries-long world-wide conspiracy that would be required to maintain it. If it's not accurate, it's not accurate. Done, end of story.

[h_p]

apparently, trillions have been spent on this coverup. Since the 1950's. Innumerable people employed in projects that don't do anything or go anywhere.

And it's got to be the absolute most effective conspiracy in the history of the world. In all the centuries that a round earth has been accepted as reality the world over, has there ever been a single person come forward, disillusioned with all the lying, and said, "yeah, I'm one of the people who actually know the world is flat, but we've been maintaining this lie and this is how we did it."

And what I'd really like to know: to what end? What possible benefit could be gained by keeping the world in the dark as to the true nature of the earth? And I don't want this "Satan wants to deceive us" crap. There are plenty of easier ways to lead people away from God than telling 7 billion people that the world is actually round. Like, who in their day-to-day lives other than pilots, rocket scientists, and people with artillery really gives a flying leap either way? I could literally go my whole life knowing that Antarctica actually surrounds the earth's rim and not one single thing would change.

Like they say, the juice ain't worth the squeeze.

[BeNotDeceived]

Huh?

Care to elaborate?

Me early earth encased in an outer shell of water solves the "water above the firmament" problem. Please quote the scriptures about water beyond the stars or whatever point you were making.

[Shawn Henry]

For what it's worth, I don't see any water above the big dipper, and you don't either.

For all I know, that's the very reason the sky is blue. Occam's Razor would say, yeah, that's water.

[Shawn Henry]

But I take it the other direction, kind of the way Isaiah says to do: a person who claims to be a prophet makes a statement. If that statement is verifiable, then verify it. If it's false, then obviously the so-called prophet is wrong. I'm not going to stand on my head and cross my eyes for the rest of my life just to force some words on a page to be true, and brew up some centuries-long world-wide conspiracy that would be required to maintain it. If it's not accurate, it's not accurate. Done, end of story.

I agree with this. Joseph could have been simply repeating the same story because it wasn't time for a better creation account to come forth. For me it's so much more, I really like all the science angles.

[Shawn Henry]

Me early earth encased in an outer shell of water solves the "water above the firmament" problem. Please quote the scriptures about water beyond the stars or whatever point you were making.

So, this whole time you haven't bothered to read it? Nice!

In all 3 accounts, the sun, moon, and stars are placed in the firmament of heaven (the same firmament where the birds fly) and the earth's waters are placed over the firmament.

[Niemand]

apparently, trillions have been spent on this coverup. Since the 1950's. Innumerable people employed in projects that don't do anything or go anywhere.

And it's got to be the absolute most effective conspiracy in the history of the world. In all the centuries that a round earth has been accepted as reality the world over, has there ever been a single person come forward, disillusioned with all the lying, and said, "yeah, I'm one of the people who actually know the world is flat, but we've been maintaining this lie and this is how we did it."

And what I'd really like to know: to what end? What possible benefit could be gained by keeping the world in the dark as to the true nature of the earth? And I don't want this "Satan wants to deceive us" crap. There are plenty of easier ways to lead people away from God than telling 7 billion people that the world is actually round. Like, who in their day-to-day lives other than pilots, rocket scientists, and people with artillery really gives a flying leap either way? I could literally go my whole life knowing that Antarctica actually surrounds the earth's rim and not one single thing would change.

Like they say, the juice ain't worth the squeeze.

I've been saying this above. I'm more inclined to think this is all a simulation than for an overcomplex scheme like this with insufficient payoff... and which isn't even working for many people as this discussion proves.

It is technically possible to be an atheist Flat Earther (although this is less common than it used to be) or a religious Round Earther.

It's not even a cool theory. At least if we were discussing something like Hollow Earth, Welteislehre or the Electric Universe we could get a decent discussion going.

[MikeMaillet]

You may wish to alter your viewpoint about the astronomy stuff in the scriptures and consider that stars are spirits/angels, that the sun represents angels of a celestial order etc. Abraham 3 makes a lot more sense this way.

The book of Enoch talks about stars that rise and set in prescribed intervals, their orbits. The stars are angels that descend and ascend in various degrees of glory. Christ descended below all and as such, can ascend above all.

Adam and Eve's sin is that they wanted to become like God and obeyed an evil voice, the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil that showed them an easy way. This is the very same sin that was committed by Lucifer, a son of the morning. Lucifer was set to rise and became jealous when he felt usurped by Christ.

Enoch describes the four winds that suspend the earth and our heaven (our spacetime). Could these winds be the four fundamental forces that allow our matter to exist? Other winds are mentioned that transport angels to different realms. Consider that our physical constants, such as C, are not only characteristics of our spacetime but also a description of the limits of this corruptible kingdom; corruptible because of the fact that it is made with matter that can be altered.

If you enjoy thinking about these things I suggest reading the books of Enoch and the Ascension of Isaiah. The various books of Adam and Eve are quite interesting as well.

Mike

[h_p]

For what it's worth, I don't see any water above the big dipper, and you don't either.

For all I know, that's the very reason the sky is blue. Occam's Razor would say, yeah, that's water.

If you can't see the sun because it's too far away at night, and it's only 100 miles above the earth, how could you possibly see the dome, much less what's above it?

[Shawn Henry]

If you can't see the sun because it's too far away at night, and it's only 100 miles above the earth, how could you possibly see the dome, much less what's above it?

I'm not saying we see a dome or through one. The dome has simply been everyone's assumption, despite not being specifically mentioned in the creation account. I agree that logically something has to keep the waters above, but there could easily be a yet to be discovered property of physics that keeps the water up there, I don't know. The only things I know for sure are that the Bible says there is water up there and the sky is the color of water.

[Shawn Henry]

You may wish to alter your viewpoint about the astronomy stuff in the scriptures and consider that stars are spirits/angels, that the sun represents angels of a celestial order etc. Abraham 3 makes a lot more sense this way.

They can be those things all day long, but they are still underneath the earth's waters.

[Shawn Henry]

And what I'd really like to know: to what end? What possible benefit could be gained by keeping the world in the dark as to the true nature of the earth? And I don't want this "Satan wants to deceive us" crap. There are plenty of easier ways to lead people away from God than telling 7 billion people that the world is actually round. Like, who in their day-to-day lives other than pilots, rocket scientists, and people with artillery really gives a flying leap either way? I could literally go my whole life knowing that Antarctica actually surrounds the earth's rim and not one single thing would change.

There is not much agency when you know you are in a giant terrarium. You would have absolute proof that there is a creator and would no longer have much of an option to be an atheist. Sure, there would be a few claiming that aliens enclosed us, but if aliens had that much power, they wouldn't far from gods themselves.

Atheism would not fare well and a giant race to break out would captivate mankind. The balance of faith we have now is perfect.

Everyone would care to know if we were in a giant terrarium and that's why they gave us the Truman Show.

[MikeMaillet]

You may wish to alter your viewpoint about the astronomy stuff in the scriptures and consider that stars are spirits/angels, that the sun represents angels of a celestial order etc. Abraham 3 makes a lot more sense this way.

They can be those things all day long, but they are still underneath the earth's waters.

When say you waters do you mean H2O type of water or does the word waters describe something else beyond our ability to detect or experince?

Mike

[FrankOne]

apparently, trillions have been spent on this coverup. Since the 1950's. Innumerable people employed in projects that don't do anything or go anywhere.

And it's got to be the absolute most effective conspiracy in the history of the world. In all the centuries that a round earth has been accepted as reality the world over, has there ever been a single person come forward, disillusioned with all the lying, and said, "yeah, I'm one of the people who actually know the world is flat, but we've been maintaining this lie and this is how we did it."

And what I'd really like to know: to what end? What possible benefit could be gained by keeping the world in the dark as to the true nature of the earth? And I don't want this "Satan wants to deceive us" crap. There are plenty of easier ways to lead people away from God than telling 7 billion people that the world is actually round. Like, who in their day-to-day lives other than pilots, rocket scientists, and people with artillery really gives a flying leap either way? I could literally go my whole life knowing that Antarctica actually surrounds the earth's rim and not one single thing would change.

Like they say, the juice ain't worth the squeeze.

It's not even a cool theory. At least if we were discussing something like Hollow Earth, Welteislehre or the Electric Universe we could get a decent discussion going.

^
Was there a recent Hollow Earth thread? I think I recall that you had considered starting one. If you did, and I've forgotten/lost it, that subject is of interest to me. I'm a dedicated fan of entering that realm if it befalls me. Subjects like the Hollow Earth are ones that I can sink my teeth into because it may involve our own future actions. Matters of curiosity that can't be used for any active purpose have limited appeal for me. I've had some personal experiences with what may be entrances to the hollow earth. It appears that those entrances are currently blocked with what we would call a supernatural force. Perhaps they will open at a future date.

[Fred]

If the compass needle points north as we all know it does, where does the opposite end of the needle point? Flat earthers think the entire perimeter of the flat disk is south. It is silly to even entertain them by admitting they have a possible theory.

Joseph Smith was not by any means perfect or infallible. The scriptures have been changed many times over the years. Even the BoM has been changed to appease satanists.

[Shawn Henry]

When say you waters do you mean H2O type of water or does the word waters describe something else beyond our ability to detect or experince?

The Bible says they were divided, the waters above and waters beneath. We know what the waters are here on the surface, so likely the same waters, right? Whether they were split evenly, I don't see why it would have to be an even split, but it obviously means vast oceans above our heads.

[Shawn Henry]

If the compass needle points north as we all know it does, where does the opposite end of the needle point? Flat earthers think the entire perimeter of the flat disk is south. It is silly to even entertain them by admitting they have a possible theory.

Joseph Smith was not by any means perfect or infallible. The scriptures have been changed many times over the years. Even the BoM has been changed to appease satanists.

Compasses point to the North Pole, absolutely nothing has changed there. If your location has an azimuth to the north, then you automatically have a back azimuth away from it.

Joseph Smith's scriptures have not changed over the years, so what is the reason his creation accounts perfectly mirror the Bible. One reason is the that the Lord is telling us his Genesis account is accurate. In your defense, another reason could be that the Lord is simply telling us it is not time for more to be revealed. Of course, then we have to consider why our creation account has been fiction for millennia and what else is fictional in the Bible.

[Fred]

If the compass needle points north as we all know it does, where does the opposite end of the needle point? Flat earthers think the entire perimeter of the flat disk is south. It is silly to even entertain them by admitting they have a possible theory.

Joseph Smith was not by any means perfect or infallible. The scriptures have been changed many times over the years. Even the BoM has been changed to appease satanists.

Compasses point to the North Pole, absolutely nothing has changed there. If your location has an azimuth to the north, then you automatically have a back azimuth away from it.

Joseph Smith's scriptures have not changed over the years, so what is the reason his creation accounts perfectly mirror the Bible. One reason is the that the Lord is telling us his Genesis account is accurate. In your defense, another reason could be that the Lord is simply telling us it is not time for more to be revealed. Of course, then we have to consider why our creation account has been fiction for millennia and what else is fictional in the Bible.

Azimuth does not mean south. Any dumb arse knows that if you go south from anywhere, you get to the south pole. Where is south on your stupid map?

[gradles21]

This is for all of you who think only stupid people question the globe model.

[Shawn Henry]

Azimuth does not mean south. Any dumb arse knows that if you go south from anywhere, you get to the south pole. Where is south on your stupid map?

I didn't say it means south. I said all south is, is the back azimuth of North. And no, we do not know we are following an azimuth to the south pole. The people of Antarctica themselves have never been to the south pole. No private party is even allowed near the south pole or to even step foot on the continent.

[Shawn Henry]

This is for all of you who think only stupid people question the globe model.

Brian is a cool dude. I fear though that 4 1/2 hours is too long of a video.

[gradles21]

This is for all of you who think only stupid people question the globe model.

Brian is a cool dude. I fear though that 4 1/2 hours is too long of a video.

It's a collection of all of his ball's out physics episodes, each one being around a half hour or less.

[Fred]

Azimuth does not mean south. Any dumb arse knows that if you go south from anywhere, you get to the south pole. Where is south on your stupid map?

I didn't say it means south. I said all south is, is the back azimuth of North. And no, we do not know we are following an azimuth to the south pole. The people of Antarctica themselves have never been to the south pole. No private party is even allowed near the south pole or to even step foot on the continent.

That is not true. There are people on the south pole. But that doesn't matter, anyway. You don't have to travel clear to the pole to know you are flying south. If Argentina is south of Alaska, it is not south of London. Every pilot on earth knows this. You do not get to South Africa by flying south from Montreal. Show me this on your map.

[Niemand]

If the compass needle points north as we all know it does, where does the opposite end of the needle point? Flat earthers think the entire perimeter of the flat disk is south. It is silly to even entertain them by admitting they have a possible theory.

Joseph Smith was not by any means perfect or infallible. The scriptures have been changed many times over the years. Even the BoM has been changed to appease satanists.

Compasses point to the North Pole, absolutely nothing has changed there. If your location has an azimuth to the north, then you automatically have a back azimuth away from it.

Joseph Smith's scriptures have not changed over the years, so what is the reason his creation accounts perfectly mirror the Bible. One reason is the that the Lord is telling us his Genesis account is accurate. In your defense, another reason could be that the Lord is simply telling us it is not time for more to be revealed. Of course, then we have to consider why our creation account has been fiction for millennia and what else is fictional in the Bible.

Magnetic compasses DON'T point to the North Pole. They point to a magnetic spot that travels around the North Pole. When I was wee it was near Baffin Island, north of Canada, now it is heading towards Novaya Zemlya north of Siberia.

There was a very big difference between reading maps in North America and Europe. In NAm your compasses pointed fairly close to due north, but we had to compensate for magnetic north being north north west of here. I had to do this with maps for geography class and even camping/hiking.

If you want to find due north, you can calculate it using the sky. Calculate solar (as opposed to time zone) noon, north of the equator and the Sun will be due south, opposite the north. The compass is slightly off.

[Fred]

If the compass needle points north as we all know it does, where does the opposite end of the needle point? Flat earthers think the entire perimeter of the flat disk is south. It is silly to even entertain them by admitting they have a possible theory.

Joseph Smith was not by any means perfect or infallible. The scriptures have been changed many times over the years. Even the BoM has been changed to appease satanists.

Compasses point to the North Pole, absolutely nothing has changed there. If your location has an azimuth to the north, then you automatically have a back azimuth away from it.

Joseph Smith's scriptures have not changed over the years, so what is the reason his creation accounts perfectly mirror the Bible. One reason is the that the Lord is telling us his Genesis account is accurate. In your defense, another reason could be that the Lord is simply telling us it is not time for more to be revealed. Of course, then we have to consider why our creation account has been fiction for millennia and what else is fictional in the Bible.

Compasses DON'T point to the North Pole. They point to a magnetic spot that travels around the North Pole.

Yes. The position of Earth's magnetic north pole was first precisely located in 1831. Since then, it's gradually drifted north-northwest by more than 600 miles (1,100 kilometers), and its forward speed has increased from about 10 miles (16 kilometers) per year to about 34 miles (55 kilometers) per year. How long till north is south? 1000 miles per time zone at the equator.

Time Zones Currently Being Used in Antarctica
Offset Time Zone Abbreviation & Name Example City Current Time
UTC -3 ART Argentina Time Carlini Base Wed, 5:51:17 pm
CLST Chile Summer Time Palmer Station Wed, 5:51:17 pm
UTC +0 GMT Greenwich Mean Time Troll Station Wed, 8:51:17 pm
UTC +5 MAWT Mawson Time Mawson Thu, 1:51:17 am
UTC +6 VOST Vostok Time Vostok Station Thu, 2:51:17 am
UTC +7 DAVT Davis Time Davis Thu, 3:51:17 am
UTC +10 DDUT Dumont-d'Urville Time Dumont d'Urville Station Thu, 6:51:17 am
UTC +11 CAST Casey Time Casey Thu, 7:51:17 am
UTC +13 NZDT New Zealand Daylight Time Mario Zucchelli Station Thu,

Can anyone explain this on a flat earth model?