Take up your cross

[Pazooka]

Anyone who believes that Joseph Smith saw the Father and the Son is obviously not going to agree with you.

I never suggested that the Father is unseeable and without form

The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's (D&C 130:22, Sunday, April 2, 1843, in Ramus, Illinois)

Joseph Smith :
There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing, and supreme power over all things—by whom all things were created and made that are created and made, whether visible or invisible; whether in heaven, on earth, or in the earth, under the earth, or throughout the immensity of space. They are the Father and the Son: The Father being a personage of spirit, glory, and power, possessing all perfection and fullness. The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle, made or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man—or rather, man was formed after his likeness and in his image. He is also the express image and likeness of the personage of the Father, possessing all the fullness of the Father, or the same fullness with the Father, being begotten of him

Both of those statements can be correct

[nightlight]

I never suggested that the Father is unseeable and without form

The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's (D&C 130:22, Sunday, April 2, 1843, in Ramus, Illinois)

Joseph Smith :
There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing, and supreme power over all things—by whom all things were created and made that are created and made, whether visible or invisible; whether in heaven, on earth, or in the earth, under the earth, or throughout the immensity of space. They are the Father and the Son: The Father being a personage of spirit, glory, and power, possessing all perfection and fullness. The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle, made or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man—or rather, man was formed after his likeness and in his image. He is also the express image and likeness of the personage of the Father, possessing all the fullness of the Father, or the same fullness with the Father, being begotten of him

Both of those statements can be correct

If it really was Jesus of Nazareth who did the things that you think Michael is responsible for..... would this change the way you view the Messiah?

Edit: perhaps not "view" , but would it change the way you feel about Him ?

[Pazooka]

The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's (D&C 130:22, Sunday, April 2, 1843, in Ramus, Illinois)

Joseph Smith :
There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing, and supreme power over all things—by whom all things were created and made that are created and made, whether visible or invisible; whether in heaven, on earth, or in the earth, under the earth, or throughout the immensity of space. They are the Father and the Son: The Father being a personage of spirit, glory, and power, possessing all perfection and fullness. The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle, made or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man—or rather, man was formed after his likeness and in his image. He is also the express image and likeness of the personage of the Father, possessing all the fullness of the Father, or the same fullness with the Father, being begotten of him

Both of those statements can be correct

If it really was Jesus of Nazareth who did the things that you think Michael is responsible for..... would this change the way you view the Messiah?

Edit: perhaps not "view" , but would it change the way you feel about Him ?

What “thing” are we talking about?

And how is it you think you know how I feel about Him???

[nightlight]

Joseph Smith :
There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing, and supreme power over all things—by whom all things were created and made that are created and made, whether visible or invisible; whether in heaven, on earth, or in the earth, under the earth, or throughout the immensity of space. They are the Father and the Son: The Father being a personage of spirit, glory, and power, possessing all perfection and fullness. The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle, made or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man—or rather, man was formed after his likeness and in his image. He is also the express image and likeness of the personage of the Father, possessing all the fullness of the Father, or the same fullness with the Father, being begotten of him

Both of those statements can be correct

If it really was Jesus of Nazareth who did the things that you think Michael is responsible for..... would this change the way you view the Messiah?

Edit: perhaps not "view" , but would it change the way you feel about Him ?

What “thing” are we talking about?

And how is it you think you know how I feel about Him???

That Michael is Alph and Omega. The first and the last. The God of the Old Testament.
The creator of the heaven and earth. The God and maker of Adam. Etc

I never said I know how you feel

I asked if it would CHANGE the way you feel

[Pazooka]

Both of those statements can be correct

If it really was Jesus of Nazareth who did the things that you think Michael is responsible for..... would this change the way you view the Messiah?

Edit: perhaps not "view" , but would it change the way you feel about Him ?

What “thing” are we talking about?

And how is it you think you know how I feel about Him???

That Michael is Alph and Omega. The first and the last. The God of the Old Testament.
The creator of the heaven and earth. The God and maker of Adam. Etc

I never said I know how you feel

I asked if it would CHANGE the way you feel

None of what you presume to know about what I believe is accurate. I don’t care to elaborate.

[moving2zion]

So many crosses to be borne, which one do I carry today? The husband, father, pay my debts and regain my freedom ones I guess. Well at least to start with.

[cab]

I found this insight into the phrase “take up your cross” more helpful than the common interpretation. I guess, when Ezekiel 9:4 tells of the angel going through the city and marking the foreheads of the people who were to be spared destruction it literally says “put a tau/tav on the foreheads of the men sighing and groaning over all the abominations committed there.” This is the same mark (a cross) that was put on the forehead of the high priest as a symbol for “the Name” of God. The Testament of Levi describes the preparation of the high priest: washing, anointing, clothing and feeding with the holy bread and wine...and it looks a lot like baptism, receiving the Holy Ghost, the Sacrament, etc.



So interesting that the letter associated with the cross also meant “mark” and “seal.”

What you're saying is redundant.

The Testament of Levi is pointing to Jesus Christ of Nazareth

Jesus is the culmination of all the rites of ancient religion.

Him actually hanging from the staff is the climax of all symbolism

Saying the cross goes beyond Jesus is just a handicap in understanding

You seem to be on some sort of "beyond Jesus" phase in your search for truth.

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
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15 Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are.
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I am the way, the truth, and the life:
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Jesus said he was “the way”....to what? He is “the truth”...about what, exactly?

Did He not say in that same breath, “no man cometh unto the Father, but by me”?

He is the way to the Father.

There is something “beyond Jesus”; something to which He testifies and to which He gives us access. He renews the creation that someone else made.

D&C 76:76 These (bodies terrestrial) are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father perhaps testifies to the fact that there is something “beyond Jesus” - so, yes, I will pursue it.

It’s about roles. Father is a role, and Son is a role. Christ had ascended to the role of Father when HIS father gave Him this eternity to create. In order to atone, the Father of this Heaven and Earth was required to condescend to the role of the Son and come to Earth in that role. That is why He references His father while here in this mortality (although He was still divine). Now that He has ascended He is again in the role of our Father (sons and daughters of Christ). The something “beyond Jesus” is the Eternal Father, the Eternal God, the creator of heaven and earth and all things therein.

We are born as children. At some point we become the parent, the father or mother. However, we sometimes revert to our role as children in family situations. At age 60, my father will still introduce me as his daughter, even though I am a mother and grandmother also. Roles. Titles. Names.

I think you stated this very well. Christ is the express revelation of the Father(s) unto us. He is in the express likeness of his Father who came before him. We pray unto the Father in his name because he is in the Father and the Father in him, and they are one. He has ascended to the role and the fullness of the Father(s) and we thus worship the Father, having been given access to the Father through Jesus. Jesus is the Way and the Truth of the Father unto us, and once born of Him, we become partakers of everything he and they (the plural Father/Eloheim) have, because we begin to feast on the same Holy Spirit.

[Pazooka]

I found this insight into the phrase “take up your cross” more helpful than the common interpretation. I guess, when Ezekiel 9:4 tells of the angel going through the city and marking the foreheads of the people who were to be spared destruction it literally says “put a tau/tav on the foreheads of the men sighing and groaning over all the abominations committed there.” This is the same mark (a cross) that was put on the forehead of the high priest as a symbol for “the Name” of God. The Testament of Levi describes the preparation of the high priest: washing, anointing, clothing and feeding with the holy bread and wine...and it looks a lot like baptism, receiving the Holy Ghost, the Sacrament, etc.

When Jesus told his followers to take up their cross (Mark 8.34 and parallels), a saying which we usually understand as a warning to expect suffering, I suspect it was originally an invitation to sharing the high priesthood by wearing the cross.

If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me... For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of man also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. (Mark 8.34, 38).


Jesus linked this saying about taking up the cross to the Son of Man coming in glory with his angels - a reference to the host in the Revelation 14 with the Name on their foreheads, the redeemed who had followed the Lamb. ‘Take up your cross and follow me’ was an invitation to become one of the restored high priests. The third commandment was originally directed to the high priests, because it warned them not to wear the Name of the LORD without due reverence. ‘You shall not wear the Name of the LORD your God lightly, for the LORD will not keep him free from harm if he wears his Name lightly.’ Wearing the Name lightly would give them no protection. (Exod.20.7).

~Margaret Barker, Papers, Entering the Temple, pgs 11-12

So interesting that the letter associated with the cross also meant “mark” and “seal.”

This thread got way off track. It’s actually about the potential deeper meaning behind what it means to take up/bear the cross.