Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

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MikeMaillet
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by MikeMaillet »

nightlight wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 4:03 pm
Mindfields wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 3:55 pm God commanding people to kill other people is bull shiz in my opinion. More like people killing people and blaming it on God after the fact to somehow absolve themselves.
Do you think God kills people?
Yes, the flood.

Mike

Mamabear
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by Mamabear »

Mindfields wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 3:55 pm God commanding people to kill other people is bull shiz in my opinion. More like people killing people and blaming it on God after the fact to somehow absolve themselves.
Thou shalt not kill. πŸ—‘

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marc
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by marc »

MikeMaillet wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 4:11 pm
nightlight wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 4:03 pm
Mindfields wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 3:55 pm God commanding people to kill other people is bull shiz in my opinion. More like people killing people and blaming it on God after the fact to somehow absolve themselves.
Do you think God kills people?
Yes, the flood.

Mike
And an angel/angels/destroying angels.

sushi_chef
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by sushi_chef »

"he says he was "constrained" by the spirit."

"10 And it came to pass that I was constrained by the Spirit that I should kill Laban; but I said in my heart: Never at any time have I shed the blood of man. And I shrunk and would that I might not slay him.
" 1 nephi 4

"11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; ..
" alma 14

the same spirit.

book of mormon is the most correct ... ?!
:arrow:

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John Tavner
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by John Tavner »

What if there is a law - the law is knows as the law of Sin and death. The consequence of that law leads to death. Thus things like the flood weren't "just slayings" it was a consequence of the wickedness of the earth - God "caused" the floods to come forth because the people did not repent and it lead to the consequences we see in scripture. This law has been decreed and when one lives in the law of sin and death, that law is in full effect as are its consequences. When one lives in the Kingdom of God and beleives it, it has little to no effect on them - including consequences because grace and mercy triumph over judgment. We are sojourners.... Whose Kingdom are we in? Whose Kingdom do we ally ourselves to and believes has more power? Perhaps then it wasn't God who opened up the waters of the deep, but the people in their wickedness did so and God removed His protection allowing it to happen removing that which gives life because of a consequence of their sin which lead to their death.

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MikeMaillet
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by MikeMaillet »

Verse 28 of section 98 is interesting:

28 And now, verily I say unto you, if that enemy shall escape my vengeance, that he be not brought into judgment before me, then ye shall see to it that ye warn him in my name, that he come no more upon you, neither upon your family, even your children’s children unto the third and fourth generation.

The part that is interesting is that the warning is now given in Christ's name.

Mike

Mamabear
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by Mamabear »

sushi_chef wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 4:21 pm "he says he was "constrained" by the spirit."

"10 And it came to pass that I was constrained by the Spirit that I should kill Laban; but I said in my heart: Never at any time have I shed the blood of man. And I shrunk and would that I might not slay him.
" 1 nephi 4

"11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; ..
" alma 14

the same spirit.

book of mormon is the most correct ... ?!
:arrow:
Methinks Joseph made an error there. Oops. Adieu.

sushi_chef
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by sushi_chef »

really thinks so ?? then maybe ... urr that adieu thing might be his humor then .. no??
:arrow:

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ransomme
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by ransomme »

It wasn't about Nephi vs Laban and Nephi needing to forgive thrice, it was about what the Lord wanted. And who knows what number of offenses Laban had racked up towards God and Laban's neighbors?

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marc
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by marc »

Mamabear wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 4:50 pm
sushi_chef wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 4:21 pm "he says he was "constrained" by the spirit."

"10 And it came to pass that I was constrained by the Spirit that I should kill Laban; but I said in my heart: Never at any time have I shed the blood of man. And I shrunk and would that I might not slay him.
" 1 nephi 4

"11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; ..
" alma 14

the same spirit.

book of mormon is the most correct ... ?!
:arrow:
Methinks Joseph made an error there. Oops. Adieu.
I wish I could find the video...Back in Joseph's day, it was not uncommon for people to say adieu to each other when parting company. I'm not talking about people in France. So to us it sounds like a French word that is out of place, but it's just a colloquial farewell which was translated as such.

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ransomme
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by ransomme »

Mamabear wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 4:12 pm
Mindfields wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 3:55 pm God commanding people to kill other people is bull shiz in my opinion. More like people killing people and blaming it on God after the fact to somehow absolve themselves.
Thou shalt not kill. πŸ—‘
A better translation/understanding is thou shalt not murder.

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nightlight
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by nightlight »

John Tavner wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 4:21 pm What if there is a law - the law is knows as the law of Sin and death. The consequence of that law leads to death. Thus things like the flood weren't "just slayings" it was a consequence of the wickedness of the earth - God "caused" the floods to come forth because the people did not repent and it lead to the consequences we see in scripture. This law has been decreed and when one lives in the law of sin and death, that law is in full effect as are its consequences. When one lives in the Kingdom of God and beleives it, it has little to no effect on them - including consequences because grace and mercy triumph over judgment. We are sojourners.... Whose Kingdom are we in? Whose Kingdom do we ally ourselves to and believes has more power? Perhaps then it wasn't God who opened up the waters of the deep, but the people in their wickedness did so and God removed His protection allowing it to happen removing that which gives life because of a consequence of their sin which lead to their death.


REVELATION 19

19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

------------

Behold, that great city Zarahemla have I aburned with fire, and the inhabitants thereof.

4 And behold, that great city Moroni have I caused to be asunk in the depths of the sea, and the inhabitants thereof to be drowned.

5 And behold, that great city aMoronihah have I covered with earth, and the inhabitants thereof, to hide their iniquities and their abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come any more unto me against them.

6 And behold, the city of Gilgal have I caused to be sunk, and the inhabitants thereof to be buried up in the depths of the earth;

7 Yea, and the city of Onihah and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of Mocum and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of aJerusalem and the inhabitants thereof; and bwaters have I caused to come up in the stead thereof, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the cblood of the prophets and the saints shall dnot come up any more unto me against them.

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nightlight
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by nightlight »

Mamabear wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 4:12 pm
Mindfields wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 3:55 pm God commanding people to kill other people is bull shiz in my opinion. More like people killing people and blaming it on God after the fact to somehow absolve themselves.
Thou shalt not kill. πŸ—‘
Revelation 11:3-13
King James Version
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

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John Tavner
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by John Tavner »

nightlight wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 6:52 pm
John Tavner wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 4:21 pm What if there is a law - the law is knows as the law of Sin and death. The consequence of that law leads to death. Thus things like the flood weren't "just slayings" it was a consequence of the wickedness of the earth - God "caused" the floods to come forth because the people did not repent and it lead to the consequences we see in scripture. This law has been decreed and when one lives in the law of sin and death, that law is in full effect as are its consequences. When one lives in the Kingdom of God and beleives it, it has little to no effect on them - including consequences because grace and mercy triumph over judgment. We are sojourners.... Whose Kingdom are we in? Whose Kingdom do we ally ourselves to and believes has more power? Perhaps then it wasn't God who opened up the waters of the deep, but the people in their wickedness did so and God removed His protection allowing it to happen removing that which gives life because of a consequence of their sin which lead to their death.


REVELATION 19

19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

------------

Behold, that great city Zarahemla have I aburned with fire, and the inhabitants thereof.

4 And behold, that great city Moroni have I caused to be asunk in the depths of the sea, and the inhabitants thereof to be drowned.

5 And behold, that great city aMoronihah have I covered with earth, and the inhabitants thereof, to hide their iniquities and their abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come any more unto me against them.

6 And behold, the city of Gilgal have I caused to be sunk, and the inhabitants thereof to be buried up in the depths of the earth;

7 Yea, and the city of Onihah and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of Mocum and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of aJerusalem and the inhabitants thereof; and bwaters have I caused to come up in the stead thereof, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the cblood of the prophets and the saints shall dnot come up any more unto me against them.
Do you not believe that the world groans under the effects of sin? Can not the world itself respond to wickedness when it has been trampled upon for such an extended period of time? Don't the scriptures state teh wicked destroy the wicked?

As for Revelations, you and I have had this discussion before - no need to rehash it.

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nightlight
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by nightlight »

John Tavner wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 7:17 pm
nightlight wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 6:52 pm
John Tavner wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 4:21 pm What if there is a law - the law is knows as the law of Sin and death. The consequence of that law leads to death. Thus things like the flood weren't "just slayings" it was a consequence of the wickedness of the earth - God "caused" the floods to come forth because the people did not repent and it lead to the consequences we see in scripture. This law has been decreed and when one lives in the law of sin and death, that law is in full effect as are its consequences. When one lives in the Kingdom of God and beleives it, it has little to no effect on them - including consequences because grace and mercy triumph over judgment. We are sojourners.... Whose Kingdom are we in? Whose Kingdom do we ally ourselves to and believes has more power? Perhaps then it wasn't God who opened up the waters of the deep, but the people in their wickedness did so and God removed His protection allowing it to happen removing that which gives life because of a consequence of their sin which lead to their death.


REVELATION 19

19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

------------

Behold, that great city Zarahemla have I aburned with fire, and the inhabitants thereof.

4 And behold, that great city Moroni have I caused to be asunk in the depths of the sea, and the inhabitants thereof to be drowned.

5 And behold, that great city aMoronihah have I covered with earth, and the inhabitants thereof, to hide their iniquities and their abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come any more unto me against them.

6 And behold, the city of Gilgal have I caused to be sunk, and the inhabitants thereof to be buried up in the depths of the earth;

7 Yea, and the city of Onihah and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of Mocum and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of aJerusalem and the inhabitants thereof; and bwaters have I caused to come up in the stead thereof, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the cblood of the prophets and the saints shall dnot come up any more unto me against them.
Do you not believe that the world groans under the effects of sin? Can not the world itself respond to wickedness when it has been trampled upon for such an extended period of time? Don't the scriptures state teh wicked destroy the wicked?

.
If the earth groans from sin then it was created to do so.

blitzinstripes
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by blitzinstripes »

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 2:48 pm In Section 98 the Lord gives us his standard for when we are justified in going against our enemies and how many times the Law requires us to forgive. He then singles out Nephi among our forefathers.

"Behold, this is the law I gave unto my servant Nephi, and thy fathers, Joseph, and Jacob, and Isaac, and Abraham, and all mine ancient prophets and apostles."

Why does Nephi get this first mention from the Lord?

In verses 39 and 40 the Lord tells us what to do when our enemies repent, we forgive them, until 7 times 70.

Starting in verse 41 he states what his Law is when they don't repent.

41 And if he trespass against thee and repent not the first time, nevertheless thou shalt forgive him.

42 And if he trespass against thee the second time, and repent not, nevertheless thou shalt forgive him.

43 And if he trespass against thee the third time, and repent not, thou shalt also forgive him.

44 But if he trespass against thee the fourth time thou shalt not forgive him...

This was the Law given to Nephi and all the Fathers. The first 3 times an offense is given without repentance, forgiveness is required. The fourth time you bring his offenses to the Lord and your enemy is still afforded time to repent.

Once these first 3 witnesses against your enemy are established, the Law also gives you an option starting with the 4th offense. You can "spare him" and it will be "rewarded for thy righteousness" or you can reward him "according to his works" and if you choose this "you are justified".

The problem with Nephi is that there are only two offenses by Laban against him. Nephi was not in accordance with the Law.

The biggest key here is Nephi's own language when he says he was "constrained" by the spirit. If you look up constrained in the Webster's 1828 dictionary, out of the 5 definitions, all 5 have some degree of force in their meaning. The Holy Spirit does not operate by force.

It is my contention that Nephi was tricked into killing Laban and listened to a different spirit. His story then becomes a type, pointing as a witness to the Garden of Eden story where Adam and Eve likewise listened to the wrong spirit, but in both situations, a future for their children was made possible.
I have to disagree pretty strongly with the premise of this post. Nephi certainly did not have enmity toward Laban and did not want to kill him. He was commanded to by the Lord in order to accomplish a divine purpose which had nothing to do with Laban 'offending' Nephi. Can you cite evidence that Nephi acted out of spite or revenge? The character of Nephi actually demonstrates significant compassion and willingness to forgive. If he was prone to acting out of personal anger, why wouldn't he have just 'offed' his older brothers after the years of continued abuse at their hands? The scriptures state that Nephi openly forgave then every time they offended him.

I see nothing in the context of the scriptures that indicates malice or a personal lack of forgiveness.

That seems like a bold assumption and not supported by contextual evidence.
Last edited by blitzinstripes on December 6th, 2022, 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

blitzinstripes
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by blitzinstripes »

Mindfields wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 3:55 pm God commanding people to kill other people is bull shiz in my opinion. More like people killing people and blaming it on God after the fact to somehow absolve themselves.
The Bible is full of examples of God commanding people to kill others. Perhaps begin with the entire land of Canaan, including women, children, and even livestock.

God, as the giver of life, has the authority make such a determination.And the scriptures usually state the justification that He gave as He did to Nephi. "It is better for one man to perish, than a nation to dwindle and perish in unbelief."

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John Tavner
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by John Tavner »

nightlight wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 7:31 pm
John Tavner wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 7:17 pm
nightlight wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 6:52 pm
John Tavner wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 4:21 pm What if there is a law - the law is knows as the law of Sin and death. The consequence of that law leads to death. Thus things like the flood weren't "just slayings" it was a consequence of the wickedness of the earth - God "caused" the floods to come forth because the people did not repent and it lead to the consequences we see in scripture. This law has been decreed and when one lives in the law of sin and death, that law is in full effect as are its consequences. When one lives in the Kingdom of God and beleives it, it has little to no effect on them - including consequences because grace and mercy triumph over judgment. We are sojourners.... Whose Kingdom are we in? Whose Kingdom do we ally ourselves to and believes has more power? Perhaps then it wasn't God who opened up the waters of the deep, but the people in their wickedness did so and God removed His protection allowing it to happen removing that which gives life because of a consequence of their sin which lead to their death.


REVELATION 19

19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

------------

Behold, that great city Zarahemla have I aburned with fire, and the inhabitants thereof.

4 And behold, that great city Moroni have I caused to be asunk in the depths of the sea, and the inhabitants thereof to be drowned.

5 And behold, that great city aMoronihah have I covered with earth, and the inhabitants thereof, to hide their iniquities and their abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come any more unto me against them.

6 And behold, the city of Gilgal have I caused to be sunk, and the inhabitants thereof to be buried up in the depths of the earth;

7 Yea, and the city of Onihah and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of Mocum and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of aJerusalem and the inhabitants thereof; and bwaters have I caused to come up in the stead thereof, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the cblood of the prophets and the saints shall dnot come up any more unto me against them.
Do you not believe that the world groans under the effects of sin? Can not the world itself respond to wickedness when it has been trampled upon for such an extended period of time? Don't the scriptures state teh wicked destroy the wicked?

.
If the earth groans from sin then it was created to do so.
Which goes to my point - there is a law of sin and death, consequences happen - consequences which occurred because of hte fall, man was never intended to be wicked, but we choose wickedness unless we choose life. These are eternal laws only triumphed by the law of Eternal Life/ being in the Kingdom of God.

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Mindfields
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by Mindfields »

blitzinstripes wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 7:49 pm
Mindfields wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 3:55 pm God commanding people to kill other people is bull shiz in my opinion. More like people killing people and blaming it on God after the fact to somehow absolve themselves.
The Bible is full of examples of God commanding people to kill others. Perhaps begin with the entire land of Canaan, including women, children, and even livestock.

God, as the giver of life, has the authority make such a determination.And the scriptures usually state the justification that He gave as He did to Nephi. "It is better for one man to perish, than a nation to dwindle and perish in unbelief."
The scriptures certainly has God commanding his people to commit murder. I cannot follow such a God. Frankly I don’t believe God did any such thing. However wicked men would do such things and claim that God commanded them to do it.

blitzinstripes
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by blitzinstripes »

Mindfields wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 8:01 pm
blitzinstripes wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 7:49 pm
Mindfields wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 3:55 pm God commanding people to kill other people is bull shiz in my opinion. More like people killing people and blaming it on God after the fact to somehow absolve themselves.
The Bible is full of examples of God commanding people to kill others. Perhaps begin with the entire land of Canaan, including women, children, and even livestock.

God, as the giver of life, has the authority make such a determination.And the scriptures usually state the justification that He gave as He did to Nephi. "It is better for one man to perish, than a nation to dwindle and perish in unbelief."
The scriptures certainly has God commanding his people to commit murder. I cannot follow such a God. Frankly I don’t believe God did any such thing. However wicked men would do such things and claim that God commanded them to do it.
When God commands it, I'm not sure the word 'murder' applies.

Again, He is the source and creator of life. As such, He determines when each of us is born, and when each of us dies. I don't think the method really matters. If He causes a massive flood that wipes out the world's population, or if He commands the Israelites to slay the Canaanites, dead is dead. God chooses the time, and to a large extent, the method.

I don't buy the new age, warm and fuzzy stuff. God certainly metes out plenty of firm justice and punishment when He wants to. All part of the job description.

Letfreedumbring
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by Letfreedumbring »

He commanded the Canaanites to be slain for the same things that are being done in our society today and most likely by the people the church partners with and is getting even cozier with.

As far as Nephi killing Laban, it has always bothered me.
Why not by flood? Why have Nephi do it? Why not a heart attack? Or another way of death?

I mean if God can choose who is to be prophet by this same method why not in this matter?

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nightlight
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by nightlight »

John Tavner wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 7:49 pm
nightlight wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 7:31 pm
John Tavner wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 7:17 pm
nightlight wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 6:52 pm



REVELATION 19

19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

------------

Behold, that great city Zarahemla have I aburned with fire, and the inhabitants thereof.

4 And behold, that great city Moroni have I caused to be asunk in the depths of the sea, and the inhabitants thereof to be drowned.

5 And behold, that great city aMoronihah have I covered with earth, and the inhabitants thereof, to hide their iniquities and their abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come any more unto me against them.

6 And behold, the city of Gilgal have I caused to be sunk, and the inhabitants thereof to be buried up in the depths of the earth;

7 Yea, and the city of Onihah and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of Mocum and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of aJerusalem and the inhabitants thereof; and bwaters have I caused to come up in the stead thereof, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the cblood of the prophets and the saints shall dnot come up any more unto me against them.
Do you not believe that the world groans under the effects of sin? Can not the world itself respond to wickedness when it has been trampled upon for such an extended period of time? Don't the scriptures state teh wicked destroy the wicked?

.
If the earth groans from sin then it was created to do so.
Which goes to my point - there is a law of sin and death, consequences happen - consequences which occurred because of hte fall, man was never intended to be wicked, but we choose wickedness unless we choose life. These are eternal laws only triumphed by the law of Eternal Life/ being in the Kingdom of God.
"man was never intended to be wicked,"

I believe you error in this doctrine (on this particular subject).

If man was never intended to be wicked then Christ was never intended to be

My natural man is sinful. I am naturally a sinful being. This is the reality. This is what is. If this was not how God intended it to be...then that is not an omnipotent being. This would be a plan B. Contingency is antithetical to the word and idea of a God

We are exactly where we're meant to be.


2 Nephi 2:11–14
Book of Mormon

11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.

13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

Atrasado
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by Atrasado »

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 3:21 pm
marc wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 3:10 pm As the custodian of the plates, Laban should have known better. He had no excuse.
True, as are your other points. They are just not on topic.

Could you read section 98 and give me your reasoning why Nephi was singled out and whether that section matches what he did. Until we figure why the Lord first referenced Nephi, we haven't really gone anywhere.
Section 98 wasn't about Laban. Laban richly deserved what he got plus as others mentioned the Lord required this killing for other purposes. (Sometimes the warnings or commands of the Holy Ghost are so urgent the word constrained works, I think). This was about Laman and Lemuel and the fraticidal war that they pursued against Nephi. And Nephi forgave those jokers at least five times before he defend himself.

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John Tavner
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by John Tavner »

nightlight wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 8:46 pm
John Tavner wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 7:49 pm
nightlight wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 7:31 pm
John Tavner wrote: ↑December 6th, 2022, 7:17 pm

Do you not believe that the world groans under the effects of sin? Can not the world itself respond to wickedness when it has been trampled upon for such an extended period of time? Don't the scriptures state teh wicked destroy the wicked?

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If the earth groans from sin then it was created to do so.
Which goes to my point - there is a law of sin and death, consequences happen - consequences which occurred because of hte fall, man was never intended to be wicked, but we choose wickedness unless we choose life. These are eternal laws only triumphed by the law of Eternal Life/ being in the Kingdom of God.
"man was never intended to be wicked,"

I believe you error in this doctrine (on this particular subject).

If man was never intended to be wicked then Christ was never intended to be

My natural man is sinful. I am naturally a sinful being. This is the reality. This is what is. If this was not how God intended it to be...then that is not an omnipotent being. This would be a plan B. Contingency is antithetical to the word and idea of a God

We are exactly where we're meant to be.


2 Nephi 2:11–14
Book of Mormon

11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.

13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.
I mean. I look at it like this If a tree is good, can they produce bitter or wicked fruit? Is God good? Yes. What He produced was not intended to be wicked or corrupt - other forces corrupted the fruit. Christ was teh answer to the problem - we were and all are supposed to look like Christ - We are to bear His name. Our intention is to not be wicked, but to be like the Father.

Man was innocent when first created, your natural man (which you should consider dead if you are born again) is a consequence of the fall of man. The flesh is week, but the Spirit is stronger- where sin abounds, grace abounds more. It was not the intention from the beginning. An omnipotent being can have intention, but still allow things to play out because of agency. It doesn't mean He isn't omnipotent. It just means He is merciful and graceful and doesn't fear.

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Alexander
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by Alexander »

Laban pursues Nephi and his brothers with intent to slay; steals their property; and then being in high position, pridefully shows off the sacred relics of the temple treasury (he was supposed to guard) and his newly acquired stolen property, as he collapses on the floor, drunk with stolen wine.

Poor and defenseless Laban; so undeserving of punishment. How dare Nephi kill him.

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