Mary Fielding Smith Theory

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BOMdotcom
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Mary Fielding Smith Theory

Post by BOMdotcom »

Within the joseph-wasn’t-a-polygamist circles, I have seen disdain for Mary Fielding Smith because she followed Brigham west and married Heber C Kimball as a plural wife. I wonder if this dislike for her is undeserved though. There are some weird things in her story that I don’t think most people have looked at, which complicate the narrative. For example:

Did you know that while Brigham and the Twelve were announcing polygamy publicly for the first time in a special conference, Mary Fielding Smith was sick, dying in a bed, in Heber C Kimball’s house?

I have a theory that Mary knew Hyrum hadn’t been a polygamist, never married Heber, and was possibly murdered because of what she knew.

In this thread, I will provide what I’ve learned about her life, and why I think this. This theory could be completely stupid, because I’m probably missing a journal entry or a letter somewhere that would clear it all up. So if you can prove it wrong, please do so, and include your sources.

BOMdotcom
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Posts: 65

Re: Mary Fielding Smith Theory

Post by BOMdotcom »

We’ll start with a rough timeline of Mary’s life:
  • 21 Jul 1801: Mary is born
  • 21 May 1836: Mary baptized (34)
  • 24 Dec 1837: Mary (36) marries Hyrum
  • 13 Nov 1838: Mary (37) gives birth to Joseph F Smith (JFS)
  • 14 May 1841: Mary (39) gives birth to Martha Ann Smith
  • 27 Jun 1844: Hyrum is murdered. (JFS is not even 6 years old.)
  • 14 Sep 1844: Mary (43) marries Heber C Kimball (HCK)
  • 7 Jun 1848: Mary leaves for Utah with the Heber C Kimball Company
  • 24 September 1848: Mary and family arrive in Utah
  • Jul 1852: Mary goes into SLC “to attend a public function”
  • 25 July 1852: Mary comes to Heber’s house, sick, and asks for a blessing. (She stays there for about 8 weeks until her death--according to HCK)
  • 8 Aug 1852: Church leaders discuss making polygamy public
  • 15 Aug 1852: Church leaders discuss making polygamy public
  • 29 Aug 1852: Polygamy is announced publicly at special conference
  • 14 Sep 1852: plural marriage revelation published for first time in an extra of the Deseret News
  • 21 Sep 1852: Mary (51) dies “apparently of pneumonia”. (JFS is not quite 14).
  • 23 Sep 1852: Heber C. Kimball delivers funeral address for Mary
  • 24 Sep 1852: Mary’s remains are buried in the SLC Cemetery (exactly 4 years from the day she arrived in the valley)

Note that she became sick and began staying at Heber’s house before the polygamy announcement on Aug 29, and she died almost a month after that on 21 Sep. She was sick at his house for around 8 weeks. She apparently did not go to the special conference, and was in Heber’s house when the plural marriage revelation was published in the Deseret News.

Does it strike anyone else as odd that she was the one person that could truly testify if Hyrum lived the “principle” or not and she missed the big announcement while being sick for 8 weeks in Heber’s house?

Timeline sources:
https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org ... bs=allTabs
https://www.ldsliving.com/the-indomitab ... er/s/90736
https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/vie ... ontext=etd
https://jod.mrm.org/1/53
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Fielding_Smith
https://jod.mrm.org/1/246

BOMdotcom
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Re: Mary Fielding Smith Theory

Post by BOMdotcom »

I’ve mentioned that Mary passed away at Heber C Kimball's house, and that the two were married, she being a plural wife of his.

But Heber’s house was not her house. She did not live there, despite being his wife.

The story goes that when they arrived in the Salt Lake valley in September 1848, the Brethren planned to give Mary a central plot in the city, but she refused, riding out and finding her own place to homestead, alone, a single mother, without a man. She built her humble home around 2700 S. and Highland Drive. Heber’s house in 1852 was probably on the northeast corner of Main street and North Temple.

I wonder if they were even married. I get that Heber had many wives by 1848, and so couldn’t accommodate them all in the same house, but there’s more that casts doubt in my mind that they were actually husband and wife....

sources:
https://www.thisistheplace.org/heritage ... smith-home
https://www.deseret.com/2002/10/22/1968 ... replica-of
https://www.thechurchnews.com/2000/7/29 ... the-church

BOMdotcom
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Re: Mary Fielding Smith Theory

Post by BOMdotcom »

The person who gave the funeral address for Mary Fielding Smith was Heber C Kimball. That makes sense because he was her religious leader and polygamist husband.

But through the recorded discourse, which took place on 23 Sep 1852, almost a month after polygamy was made public, he never once mentions that they were married in any way. You can read it in the first volume of the journal of discourses, here: https://jod.mrm.org/1/246

He actually refers to his family and Mary as separate entities.

He does state that he never had time to visit her, so she had to visit him. But their relationship is framed as a friendship more than anything else.

That friendship probably began over a decade earlier, in 1837 when Mary Fielding boarded in the Kirtland house of Vilate Kimball while Heber was away on a mission.

Now, by the day of Mary’s funeral, the “cat was out of the bag” on polygamy. They had already announced it in a special conference and in the Deseret News. So isn’t it curious that Heber C Kimball doesn’t mention that he was married to Mary Fielding Smith as he gave her eulogy?

source:
https://www.thechurchnews.com/2014/4/19 ... loneliness.

BOMdotcom
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Re: Mary Fielding Smith Theory

Post by BOMdotcom »

Not only did Heber not mention that Mary Fielding Smith was his wife at her funeral,

Her obituary, printed 11 Dec 1852, never says she was married to him.

Her grave marker doesn’t say she was a wife of Heber C Kimball.

She never bore any children to him.

And, most interesting of all is the date that the two were supposedly married to each other. 14 September 1844. If you look in Heber’s journal entry for the day he married Mary Fielding Smith, this is what he wrote:

"Nothing New —"

That’s it. This is his entire journal entry for 14 Sep 1844, according to the book On the Potter's Wheel: The Diaries of Heber C. Kimball, pg 86,

This is so strange to me. Wouldn’t marrying the widow of the prophet Hyrum be something worth noting in your journal? Did he even marry her on that day? Did he even marry her at all?
mfs&hck.PNG
mfs&hck.PNG (17.24 KiB) Viewed 1128 times
hck14sep1844.PNG
hck14sep1844.PNG (36.24 KiB) Viewed 1128 times
Sources:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/634 ... mith/photo
https://archive.org/details/OnThePotter ... 3/mode/2up
familysearch . org

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BuriedTartaria
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Re: Mary Fielding Smith Theory

Post by BuriedTartaria »

BOMdotcom wrote: December 6th, 2022, 2:27 pm I’ve mentioned that Mary passed away at Heber C Kimball's house, and that the two were married, she being a plural wife of his.

But Heber’s house was not her house. She did not live there, despite being his wife.

The story goes that when they arrived in the Salt Lake valley in September 1848, the Brethren planned to give Mary a central plot in the city, but she refused, riding out and finding her own place to homestead, alone, a single mother, without a man. She built her humble home around 2700 S. and Highland Drive. Heber’s house in 1852 was probably on the northeast corner of Main street and North Temple.

I wonder if they were even married. I get that Heber had many wives by 1848, and so couldn’t accommodate them all in the same house, but there’s more that casts doubt in my mind that they were actually husband and wife....

sources:
https://www.thisistheplace.org/heritage ... smith-home
https://www.deseret.com/2002/10/22/1968 ... replica-of
https://www.thechurchnews.com/2000/7/29 ... the-church
Interesting stuff here.

tribrac
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Location: The land northward

Re: Mary Fielding Smith Theory

Post by tribrac »

Boy church history gets awkward the minute you step outside of "Our Heritage". That's why I like how today's church does everything it can to bury history and carefully control what is written about them now.

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Cruiserdude
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Re: Mary Fielding Smith Theory

Post by Cruiserdude »

tribrac wrote: December 6th, 2022, 4:41 pm Boy church history gets awkward the minute you step outside of "Our Heritage". That's why I like how today's church does everything it can to bury history and carefully control what is written about them now.
Why is it that the more stuff is investigated, the more deception we find??? Just sick and tired of the deception...

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The Red Pill
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Re: Mary Fielding Smith Theory

Post by The Red Pill »

Brigham was a bad dude...Heber C. was his best bud and both were big-time Masons.

The two have a body count that rivals the Clinton's...

Don Carlos Smith
Joseph Smith
Hyrum Smith
Samual Smith

Now this...

Brigham and Heber were masters at document doctoring. Inserting stuff into the history and even Joseph's personal journal...to "dirty him up"

BOMdotcom
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Posts: 65

Re: Mary Fielding Smith Theory

Post by BOMdotcom »

So a big question I have is: Where does the marriage date of 14 Sep 1844 come from? As I’ve shown above, it doesn’t come from Heber’s journal, or from Mary’s obituary or tombstone.

I found a paper by Lavina Fielding Anderson that appears to have been written in 1980, where she identifies 1846 as the year that Mary was married to Heber. This is what she wrote:

“Possibly even more important, she had been sealed to Heber C. Kimball in January 1846 for time only (she was sealed to Hyrum for eternity) and thus was part of the Kimball family.”

She doesn’t provide any source for her Jan 1846 claim. Of course, that is quite a bit different than the currently accepted date of Sep 1844.

Assuming she had good information to go on, why was Mary sealed to Heber in January 1846 in the 1980s, but now it happened September 1844?

Does anybody know where either wedding date comes from?

Source:
https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-cont ... N04_93.pdf

Atrasado
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Posts: 1773

Re: Mary Fielding Smith Theory

Post by Atrasado »

I don't want to be rude, but no. Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball didn't murder Mary Fielding Smith. And they didn't murder Joseph Smith.

Furthermore, Joseph Smith practiced polygamy as commanded of God. So did Brigham Young and he acted with the authority of God as his chosen servant. Was he perfect? Nah, not even close. But there were too many miracles testifying that the saints were still God's people.

Where did things get weird? I don't know. But there are things that don't pass the smell test around 1900 +/- 10 years. However, I believe that authority still continued for many years and that Spencer Kimball, maybe others later were true servants of God.

Now authority continues but like the authority that the priests and Pharisees had during Christ's ministry on the earth. Meaning, the current leaders occupy the seat of Joseph Smith like the Pharisees occupied Moses' seat but they are the drunkards of Ephraim and deceitful and wicked men.
Last edited by Atrasado on December 8th, 2022, 5:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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HereWeGo
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Re: Mary Fielding Smith Theory

Post by HereWeGo »

BOMdotcom wrote: December 7th, 2022, 3:51 pm So a big question I have is: Where does the marriage date of 14 Sep 1844 come from? As I’ve shown above, it doesn’t come from Heber’s journal, or from Mary’s obituary or tombstone.

I found a paper by Lavina Fielding Anderson that appears to have been written in 1980, where she identifies 1846 as the year that Mary was married to Heber. This is what she wrote:

“Possibly even more important, she had been sealed to Heber C. Kimball in January 1846 for time only (she was sealed to Hyrum for eternity) and thus was part of the Kimball family.”

She doesn’t provide any source for her Jan 1846 claim. Of course, that is quite a bit different than the currently accepted date of Sep 1844.

Assuming she had good information to go on, why was Mary sealed to Heber in January 1846 in the 1980s, but now it happened September 1844?

Does anybody know where either wedding date comes from?

Source:
https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-cont ... N04_93.pdf
There isn't good documentation to support either dates claimed. My position is without good documentation, something is just speculation. Sometimes speculation is correct. Most times it is not.

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The Red Pill
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Location: Southern Utah

Re: Mary Fielding Smith Theory

Post by The Red Pill »

Atrasado wrote: December 7th, 2022, 4:12 pm I don't want to be rude, but no. Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball didn't murder Mary Fielding Smith. And they didn't murder Joseph Smith.

Furthermore, Joseph Smith practiced polygamy as commanded of God. So did Brigham Young and he acted with the authority of God as his chosen servant. Was he perfect? Nah, not even close. But there were too many miracles testifying that the saints were still God's people.

Where did things get weird? I don't know. But there are things that don't pass the smell test around 1900 +/- 10 years. However, I believe that authority still continued for many years and that Spencer Kimball, maybe others later were true servants of God.

Now authority continues but like the authority that the priests and Pharisees had during Christ's ministry on the earth. Meaning, the current leaders occupy the seat of Joseph Smith like the Pharisees occupied Moses' seat but they are the drunkards of Ephraim and deceitful and wicked men.
Dig deeper...glad you recognize things are messed up now, that's a good start. That's where I was a year ago. But...that led me into a deep deep deep dive into church history. Things are NOT what they appear to be.

You have to want to research this or you won't dig deep enough to cut through all the BS.

If so inclined...start here:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F5heXE5xS ... hw&index=8

Bronco73idi
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Posts: 3623

Re: Mary Fielding Smith Theory

Post by Bronco73idi »

The Red Pill wrote: December 8th, 2022, 11:08 am
Atrasado wrote: December 7th, 2022, 4:12 pm I don't want to be rude, but no. Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball didn't murder Mary Fielding Smith. And they didn't murder Joseph Smith.

Furthermore, Joseph Smith practiced polygamy as commanded of God. So did Brigham Young and he acted with the authority of God as his chosen servant. Was he perfect? Nah, not even close. But there were too many miracles testifying that the saints were still God's people.

Where did things get weird? I don't know. But there are things that don't pass the smell test around 1900 +/- 10 years. However, I believe that authority still continued for many years and that Spencer Kimball, maybe others later were true servants of God.

Now authority continues but like the authority that the priests and Pharisees had during Christ's ministry on the earth. Meaning, the current leaders occupy the seat of Joseph Smith like the Pharisees occupied Moses' seat but they are the drunkards of Ephraim and deceitful and wicked men.
Dig deeper...glad you recognize things are messed up now, that's a good start. That's where I was a year ago. But...that led me into a deep deep deep dive into church history. Things are NOT what they appear to be.

You have to want to research this or you won't dig deep enough to cut through all the BS.

If so inclined...start here:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F5heXE5xS ... hw&index=8
I didn’t know you were perfect?

Can you honestly answer why Jospeh Smith said

https://emp.byui.edu/satterfieldb/quote ... Smith.html

He said this to his apostles and to a couple elders on the street. I’m not going to search for the 2nd quote.

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The Red Pill
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Location: Southern Utah

Re: Mary Fielding Smith Theory

Post by The Red Pill »

Bronco73idi wrote: December 8th, 2022, 11:19 am
The Red Pill wrote: December 8th, 2022, 11:08 am
Atrasado wrote: December 7th, 2022, 4:12 pm I don't want to be rude, but no. Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball didn't murder Mary Fielding Smith. And they didn't murder Joseph Smith.

Furthermore, Joseph Smith practiced polygamy as commanded of God. So did Brigham Young and he acted with the authority of God as his chosen servant. Was he perfect? Nah, not even close. But there were too many miracles testifying that the saints were still God's people.

Where did things get weird? I don't know. But there are things that don't pass the smell test around 1900 +/- 10 years. However, I believe that authority still continued for many years and that Spencer Kimball, maybe others later were true servants of God.

Now authority continues but like the authority that the priests and Pharisees had during Christ's ministry on the earth. Meaning, the current leaders occupy the seat of Joseph Smith like the Pharisees occupied Moses' seat but they are the drunkards of Ephraim and deceitful and wicked men.
Dig deeper...glad you recognize things are messed up now, that's a good start. That's where I was a year ago. But...that led me into a deep deep deep dive into church history. Things are NOT what they appear to be.

You have to want to research this or you won't dig deep enough to cut through all the BS.

If so inclined...start here:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F5heXE5xS ... hw&index=8
I didn’t know you were perfect?

Can you honestly answer why Jospeh Smith said

https://emp.byui.edu/satterfieldb/quote ... Smith.html

He said this to his apostles and to a couple elders on the street. I’m not going to search for the 2nd quote.
Perfect?? Your words bro. Not mine.

If you didn't watch the video, you have no idea what I am even talking about. If you want to debate aspects presented in the video, come back and name them specifically...along with your counter-argument.

Attacking the messenger, using diversions and the like will get you nowhere. It is undeniable established fact that many of Joseph's writings were doctored AFTER his death. If you don't understand this, you don't understand church history.

Since I wasn't even directing that reply to you, you seem very touchy and defensive. Why is that?

BOMdotcom
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Posts: 65

Re: Mary Fielding Smith Theory

Post by BOMdotcom »

Atrasado wrote: December 7th, 2022, 4:12 pm I don't want to be rude, but no. Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball didn't murder Mary Fielding Smith. And they didn't murder Joseph Smith.
As I said in OP, this might be a really stupid theory. I'm completely willing for it to be wrong, but there are some things that need answering IMO.
I'm probably missing a contemporary source out there somewhere that will prove it wrong. Hoping somebody here knows more about it.

BOMdotcom
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Posts: 65

Re: Mary Fielding Smith Theory

Post by BOMdotcom »

HereWeGo wrote: December 7th, 2022, 10:33 pm
BOMdotcom wrote: December 7th, 2022, 3:51 pm So a big question I have is: Where does the marriage date of 14 Sep 1844 come from? As I’ve shown above, it doesn’t come from Heber’s journal, or from Mary’s obituary or tombstone.

I found a paper by Lavina Fielding Anderson that appears to have been written in 1980, where she identifies 1846 as the year that Mary was married to Heber. This is what she wrote:

“Possibly even more important, she had been sealed to Heber C. Kimball in January 1846 for time only (she was sealed to Hyrum for eternity) and thus was part of the Kimball family.”

She doesn’t provide any source for her Jan 1846 claim. Of course, that is quite a bit different than the currently accepted date of Sep 1844.

Assuming she had good information to go on, why was Mary sealed to Heber in January 1846 in the 1980s, but now it happened September 1844?

Does anybody know where either wedding date comes from?

Source:
https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-cont ... N04_93.pdf
There isn't good documentation to support either dates claimed. My position is without good documentation, something is just speculation. Sometimes speculation is correct. Most times it is not.
Thanks. I can't find good documentation anywhere. Those dates have to come from somewhere, right? If we could find Mary Fielding Smith herself saying she was married to Heber, or even Heber himself talking about it, it would be helpful. I've only got the internet and cant seem to find good explanations for either date.

Bronco73idi
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Posts: 3623

Re: Mary Fielding Smith Theory

Post by Bronco73idi »

The Red Pill wrote: December 8th, 2022, 12:59 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: December 8th, 2022, 11:19 am
The Red Pill wrote: December 8th, 2022, 11:08 am
Atrasado wrote: December 7th, 2022, 4:12 pm I don't want to be rude, but no. Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball didn't murder Mary Fielding Smith. And they didn't murder Joseph Smith.

Furthermore, Joseph Smith practiced polygamy as commanded of God. So did Brigham Young and he acted with the authority of God as his chosen servant. Was he perfect? Nah, not even close. But there were too many miracles testifying that the saints were still God's people.

Where did things get weird? I don't know. But there are things that don't pass the smell test around 1900 +/- 10 years. However, I believe that authority still continued for many years and that Spencer Kimball, maybe others later were true servants of God.

Now authority continues but like the authority that the priests and Pharisees had during Christ's ministry on the earth. Meaning, the current leaders occupy the seat of Joseph Smith like the Pharisees occupied Moses' seat but they are the drunkards of Ephraim and deceitful and wicked men.
Dig deeper...glad you recognize things are messed up now, that's a good start. That's where I was a year ago. But...that led me into a deep deep deep dive into church history. Things are NOT what they appear to be.

You have to want to research this or you won't dig deep enough to cut through all the BS.

If so inclined...start here:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F5heXE5xS ... hw&index=8
I didn’t know you were perfect?

Can you honestly answer why Jospeh Smith said

https://emp.byui.edu/satterfieldb/quote ... Smith.html

He said this to his apostles and to a couple elders on the street. I’m not going to search for the 2nd quote.
Perfect?? Your words bro. Not mine.

If you didn't watch the video, you have no idea what I am even talking about. If you want to debate aspects presented in the video, come back and name them specifically...along with your counter-argument.

Attacking the messenger, using diversions and the like will get you nowhere. It is undeniable established fact that many of Joseph's writings were doctored AFTER his death. If you don't understand this, you don't understand church history.

Since I wasn't even directing that reply to you, you seem very touchy and defensive. Why is that?
Does the video have anything to do with Jospeh Smith telling people that they would kill him if he told them everything that he knows pertaining to the kingdom of god?

Why would Jospeh say that twice?

I’m not a polygamist, I have one wife and 4 kids. The way anti polygamist condemns others reminds me of how Pharisees condemn the lord for say he is the son of god.

Are we not gods?

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The Red Pill
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Posts: 1661
Location: Southern Utah

Re: Mary Fielding Smith Theory

Post by The Red Pill »

Bronco73idi wrote: December 8th, 2022, 1:41 pm
The Red Pill wrote: December 8th, 2022, 12:59 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: December 8th, 2022, 11:19 am
The Red Pill wrote: December 8th, 2022, 11:08 am

Dig deeper...glad you recognize things are messed up now, that's a good start. That's where I was a year ago. But...that led me into a deep deep deep dive into church history. Things are NOT what they appear to be.

You have to want to research this or you won't dig deep enough to cut through all the BS.

If so inclined...start here:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F5heXE5xS ... hw&index=8
I didn’t know you were perfect?

Can you honestly answer why Jospeh Smith said

https://emp.byui.edu/satterfieldb/quote ... Smith.html

He said this to his apostles and to a couple elders on the street. I’m not going to search for the 2nd quote.
Perfect?? Your words bro. Not mine.

If you didn't watch the video, you have no idea what I am even talking about. If you want to debate aspects presented in the video, come back and name them specifically...along with your counter-argument.

Attacking the messenger, using diversions and the like will get you nowhere. It is undeniable established fact that many of Joseph's writings were doctored AFTER his death. If you don't understand this, you don't understand church history.

Since I wasn't even directing that reply to you, you seem very touchy and defensive. Why is that?
Does the video have anything to do with Jospeh Smith telling people that they would kill him if he told them everything that he knows pertaining to the kingdom of god?

Why would Jospeh say that twice?

I’m not a polygamist, I have one wife and 4 kids. The way anti polygamist condemns others reminds me of how Pharisees condemn the lord for say he is the son of god.

Are we not gods?
The video simply presents the question and evidence...who was the first to practice polygamy...Joseph or Brigham.

The truth of the answer to that question is a big deal.

Who is condemning others? I didn't condem anyone, I encouraged further research. You quite rudely accused me of thinking of myself as perfect.

Maybe before you start making judgments, you should at least take time to view the source material, understand what the issue is and have the decency to not pop-off on someone without knowing where they are even coming from.

BOMdotcom
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Posts: 65

Re: Mary Fielding Smith Theory

Post by BOMdotcom »

My theory is there was foul play in Mary’s death. She died at Heber’s house, literally during the period of time where polygamy was becoming public to all the saints. According to Heber, she was in bed at his house during all of that–the reading of the revelation that’s now D&C 132, the people’s reaction to it, the printing of the revelation–all of it.

If it was foul play, Heber is a prime suspect–because she died at his house, under his care.

In the entry for Tuesday, May 23, 1843, William Clayton wrote this in his diary:
Tuesday 23. Conversed with H.C.K. concerning a plot that is being
laid to entrap the brethren of the secret priesthood by bro. H. and
others.
“H.C.K” is almost certainly Heber C. Kimball. “Bro. H.” is likely Hyrum Smith (I haven’t heard any good arguments for it being anyone else). So on this day, Clayton had a conversation with Heber about how Hyrum was plotting to take down “the brethren of the secret priesthood.” This would likely suggest that Heber and Clayton were members of the secret priesthood, and that Hyrum was not.

Is it possible that this secret priesthood had anything to do with secret polygamy?

At this time, Hyrum was married to Mary Fielding Smith. I wonder if Hyrum ever spoke with his wife about his plot to entrap the brethren of the secret priesthood? What did she know then?

What did she know between 25 July 1852 and 21 Sep 1852?

Also at this time, Hyrum was the Assistant President of the Church. If he wasn’t involved in the secret priesthood, but HCK and William Clayton were, is it safe to assume that the President, Joseph Smith wasn’t a part of it either?

source:
https://archive.org/stream/WilliamClayt ... l_djvu.txt

Bronco73idi
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Posts: 3623

Re: Mary Fielding Smith Theory

Post by Bronco73idi »

The Red Pill wrote: December 8th, 2022, 1:58 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: December 8th, 2022, 1:41 pm
The Red Pill wrote: December 8th, 2022, 12:59 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: December 8th, 2022, 11:19 am

I didn’t know you were perfect?

Can you honestly answer why Jospeh Smith said

https://emp.byui.edu/satterfieldb/quote ... Smith.html

He said this to his apostles and to a couple elders on the street. I’m not going to search for the 2nd quote.
Perfect?? Your words bro. Not mine.

If you didn't watch the video, you have no idea what I am even talking about. If you want to debate aspects presented in the video, come back and name them specifically...along with your counter-argument.

Attacking the messenger, using diversions and the like will get you nowhere. It is undeniable established fact that many of Joseph's writings were doctored AFTER his death. If you don't understand this, you don't understand church history.

Since I wasn't even directing that reply to you, you seem very touchy and defensive. Why is that?
Does the video have anything to do with Jospeh Smith telling people that they would kill him if he told them everything that he knows pertaining to the kingdom of god?

Why would Jospeh say that twice?

I’m not a polygamist, I have one wife and 4 kids. The way anti polygamist condemns others reminds me of how Pharisees condemn the lord for say he is the son of god.

Are we not gods?
The video simply presents the question and evidence...who was the first to practice polygamy...Joseph or Brigham.

The truth of the answer to that question is a big deal.

Who is condemning others? I didn't condem anyone, I encouraged further research. You quite rudely accused me of thinking of myself as perfect.

Maybe before you start making judgments, you should at least take time to view the source material, understand what the issue is and have the decency to not pop-off on someone without knowing where they are even coming from.
If you read your post I replied too from another viewpoint then you can see where it’s sounding judgmental, to the degree the church must be false.

I think my 1st reply fits quite well. Did Jospeh lie like Peter did? I compare the two because if Jospeh practice polygamy and then cover it up to save his life then it would be a similar lie to Peter. He denied to know Jesus to save his own life.

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The Red Pill
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1661
Location: Southern Utah

Re: Mary Fielding Smith Theory

Post by The Red Pill »

BOMdotcom wrote: December 8th, 2022, 2:19 pm My theory is there was foul play in Mary’s death. She died at Heber’s house, literally during the period of time where polygamy was becoming public to all the saints. According to Heber, she was in bed at his house during all of that–the reading of the revelation that’s now D&C 132, the people’s reaction to it, the printing of the revelation–all of it.

If it was foul play, Heber is a prime suspect–because she died at his house, under his care.

In the entry for Tuesday, May 23, 1843, William Clayton wrote this in his diary:
Tuesday 23. Conversed with H.C.K. concerning a plot that is being
laid to entrap the brethren of the secret priesthood by bro. H. and
others.
“H.C.K” is almost certainly Heber C. Kimball. “Bro. H.” is likely Hyrum Smith (I haven’t heard any good arguments for it being anyone else). So on this day, Clayton had a conversation with Heber about how Hyrum was plotting to take down “the brethren of the secret priesthood.” This would likely suggest that Heber and Clayton were members of the secret priesthood, and that Hyrum was not.

Is it possible that this secret priesthood had anything to do with secret polygamy?

At this time, Hyrum was married to Mary Fielding Smith. I wonder if Hyrum ever spoke with his wife about his plot to entrap the brethren of the secret priesthood? What did she know then?

What did she know between 25 July 1852 and 21 Sep 1852?

Also at this time, Hyrum was the Assistant President of the Church. If he wasn’t involved in the secret priesthood, but HCK and William Clayton were, is it safe to assume that the President, Joseph Smith wasn’t a part of it either?

source:
https://archive.org/stream/WilliamClayt ... l_djvu.txt
Your theory is making a lot of sense. 132 was NOT in Joseph's handwriting, Brigham claimed he kept it in a strong-box for nine years, 8 years AFTER Joseph was murdered. Who's handwriting was section 132 in? Williams Clayton's, yes the same William Clayton you are discussing. How convenient...for the secret priesthood.

Further, William Clayton's missionary journal details some very suspicious activity with women (other than his wife). Sections scribbled out...right after drinking Ale and having said woman wash his feet. The polygamist Cochranite's of Maine had this same washing of feet ritual as part of their spiritual wife (polygamy) program. Did Clayton engage in adulterous relationships on his mission? That would fit the progression of events. Is polygamy really not just "religiously sanctioned" adultery?

Also Brigham insisted on traveling ALONE, not in a companionship on his mission. There are accounts where Brigham was also observed in compromising situations while alone with women behind drawn blinds and locked doors. Early seeds of polygamy being sown?

Bronco73idi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3623

Re: Mary Fielding Smith Theory

Post by Bronco73idi »

The Red Pill wrote: December 8th, 2022, 3:10 pm
BOMdotcom wrote: December 8th, 2022, 2:19 pm My theory is there was foul play in Mary’s death. She died at Heber’s house, literally during the period of time where polygamy was becoming public to all the saints. According to Heber, she was in bed at his house during all of that–the reading of the revelation that’s now D&C 132, the people’s reaction to it, the printing of the revelation–all of it.

If it was foul play, Heber is a prime suspect–because she died at his house, under his care.

In the entry for Tuesday, May 23, 1843, William Clayton wrote this in his diary:
Tuesday 23. Conversed with H.C.K. concerning a plot that is being
laid to entrap the brethren of the secret priesthood by bro. H. and
others.
“H.C.K” is almost certainly Heber C. Kimball. “Bro. H.” is likely Hyrum Smith (I haven’t heard any good arguments for it being anyone else). So on this day, Clayton had a conversation with Heber about how Hyrum was plotting to take down “the brethren of the secret priesthood.” This would likely suggest that Heber and Clayton were members of the secret priesthood, and that Hyrum was not.

Is it possible that this secret priesthood had anything to do with secret polygamy?

At this time, Hyrum was married to Mary Fielding Smith. I wonder if Hyrum ever spoke with his wife about his plot to entrap the brethren of the secret priesthood? What did she know then?

What did she know between 25 July 1852 and 21 Sep 1852?

Also at this time, Hyrum was the Assistant President of the Church. If he wasn’t involved in the secret priesthood, but HCK and William Clayton were, is it safe to assume that the President, Joseph Smith wasn’t a part of it either?

source:
https://archive.org/stream/WilliamClayt ... l_djvu.txt
Your theory is making a lot of sense. 132 was NOT in Joseph's handwriting, Brigham claimed he kept it in a strong-box for nine years, 8 years AFTER Joseph was murdered. Who's handwriting was section 132 in? Williams Clayton's, yes the same William Clayton you are discussing. How convenient...for the secret priesthood.

Further, William Clayton's missionary journal details some very suspicious activity with women (other than his wife). Sections scribbled out...right after drinking Ale and having said woman wash his feet. The polygamist Cochranite's of Maine had this same washing of feet ritual as part of their spiritual wife (polygamy) program. Did Clayton engage in adulterous relationships on his mission? That would fit the progression of events. Is polygamy really not just "religiously sanctioned" adultery?

Also Brigham insisted on traveling ALONE, not in a companionship on his mission. There are accounts where Brigham was also observed in compromising situations while alone with women behind drawn blinds and locked doors. Early seeds of polygamy being sown?
Are you married?

BOMdotcom
captain of 50
Posts: 65

Re: Mary Fielding Smith Theory

Post by BOMdotcom »

I’m just trying to make sense of the story and find the truth. Looking more at Heber’s diary, I found these references to Mary Fielding Smith:

August 20 [1844], Tuesday. I went and spent a chort
time with Hiram Smith widow.
Was called to Lay hands
on Arther Millican. He was healled.
6 Sept. [1844], Friday. Went to B. Youngs with my wife
then to Mary Smith, Hirum Widow.
From that to Elder
Richards, he was beter. After Elder B. Young and my
self went to viset the sick at Levi Richards. When we got
to my hous, Alonso [Alonzo] M. Whitne[y] come to my
hous and told Elder B. Young and my self the plans that
ware working by Elder Rigdon and others against the
Church.
11 March [1845]. The K[ingdom] met at the Seventis
Hall at 10 Oclock, 40 in Number. The day fare. Silas
[Cyrus?] Daniels was Recieved as one of our Number.
Meting /opened/ at 10. We adjourned for one hour. I
went to Mary Smiths to dine.
My wife was viseting.
One could assume from these that some sort of courtship was going on between them, but it’s not stated explicitly. He should have been married to Mary by the 11 March 1845 entry, if the 14 Sep 1844 marriage date is correct.

Source:
https://archive.org/stream/OnThePotters ... l_djvu.txt

BOMdotcom
captain of 50
Posts: 65

Re: Mary Fielding Smith Theory

Post by BOMdotcom »

So Mary died in the house and under the care of Heber C Kimball, a member of the secret priesthood Hyrum Smith was hoping to lay a trap for. In his funeral address for Mary, Heber mentions specific people who cared for her while she was sick:

“She was never left alone, after she became sick.”

“My family, and brother Brigham's family, and others, waited upon her all the time. She had every attention paid to her, that ever was paid to a sick person.”

“Sister Thompson has been here ever since sister Mary was taken sick, and she paid every attention to her.”

“I say, with regard to my family, if ever there were good feelings shown to any person, they have manifested them to her, so also have brother Brigham's family, and others who live around here. I will say so much in their behalf, and for the consolation of the friends of the departed.”

So as she was sick in a bed, Mary was never left alone. That makes sense if she was very ill. I’m not sure who the “others” were, but three people or families are mentioned by name:
  • Heber’s family
  • Brigham’s family
  • and Sister Thompson, who I assume is Mary’s sister, Mercy Fielding Thompson.
Mercy Thompson is an interesting piece of the puzzle, which I’ll get to later.

source:
https://jod.mrm.org/1/246

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