Biblical word game…

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Bronco73idi
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Biblical word game…

Post by Bronco73idi »

Let’s look at words/actions = sin

Sex with wife when bleeding = abomination
Leviticus 20:18

Men having sex with men (eunuchs) = abomination
Leviticus 20:13

Women having sex with women…… nothing

Married Man having sex with non married women = concubines = abomination
5 times in BOM

Married woman having sex with another man (married or single) = adultery

Married man putting away his wife = adultery
Why is this worse then concubines?

It’s almost like marriage is like our savior’s relationship with us. He is the bridegroom and we are the bride. We need a bride to become like him.

Hmmmm, is this act of marriage deeper then what we see?

Go ahead and fix my errors, I’m here to learn also.

Edit: Added a couple scripture references
Last edited by Bronco73idi on December 6th, 2022, 1:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Mamabear
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Re: Biblical word game…

Post by Mamabear »

Ummm…..Where does it say sex with wife when bleeding is an abomination?

Bronco73idi
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Re: Biblical word game…

Post by Bronco73idi »

Mamabear wrote: December 6th, 2022, 1:11 pm Ummm…..Where does it say sex with wife when bleeding is an abomination?
Leviticus

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FoxMammaWisdom
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Re: Biblical word game…

Post by FoxMammaWisdom »

Mamabear wrote: December 6th, 2022, 1:11 pm Ummm…..Where does it say sex with wife when bleeding is an abomination?
They had to go to the Red Tent while they bled (no men allowed), and then go thru a purification ritual afterward before getting back with their husbands. Don't know which scriptures to quote though.

Mamabear
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Re: Biblical word game…

Post by Mamabear »

FoxMammaWisdom wrote: December 6th, 2022, 1:15 pm
Mamabear wrote: December 6th, 2022, 1:11 pm Ummm…..Where does it say sex with wife when bleeding is an abomination?
They had to go to the Red Tent while they bled (no men allowed), and then go thru a purification ritual afterward before getting back with their husbands. Don't know which scriptures to quote though.
Sounds dumb, not surprised….

Letfreedumbring
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Re: Biblical word game…

Post by Letfreedumbring »

FoxMammaWisdom wrote: December 6th, 2022, 1:15 pm
They had to go to the Red Tent while they bled (no men allowed), and then go thru a purification ritual afterward before getting back with their husbands. Don't know which scriptures to quote though.
Leviticus 15:19-33

onefour1
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Re: Biblical word game…

Post by onefour1 »

Bronco73idi wrote: December 6th, 2022, 12:54 pm Let’s look at words/actions = sin

Sex with wife when bleeding = abomination
Leviticus 20:18

Men having sex with men (eunuchs) = abomination
Leviticus 20:13

Women having sex with women…… nothing

Married Man having sex with non married women = concubines = abomination
5 times in BOM

Married woman having sex with another man (married or single) = adultery

Married man putting away his wife = adultery
Why is this worse then concubines?

It’s almost like marriage is like our savior’s relationship with us. He is the bridegroom and we are the bride. We need a bride to become like him.

Hmmmm, is this act of marriage deeper then what we see?

Go ahead and fix my errors, I’m here to learn also.

Edit: Added a couple scripture references
Romans 1:26-32
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

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MikeMaillet
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Re: Biblical word game…

Post by MikeMaillet »

Mamabear wrote: December 6th, 2022, 1:28 pm
FoxMammaWisdom wrote: December 6th, 2022, 1:15 pm
Mamabear wrote: December 6th, 2022, 1:11 pm Ummm…..Where does it say sex with wife when bleeding is an abomination?
They had to go to the Red Tent while they bled (no men allowed), and then go thru a purification ritual afterward before getting back with their husbands. Don't know which scriptures to quote though.
Sounds dumb, not surprised….
I had similar feelings when reading Leviticus in the past. These rules were part of the covenant that Jehovah made with the Israelites, and Israelites only. If the Israelites lived the covenant as a whole group, then Jehovah would come and dwell with them in person as well as protect them from their mortal enemies. I do know that the Israelites were a particularly wicked people and Christ came personally to minister unto them and to atone for their sins (as well as ours) that they might be saved if they repented. Note that Christ did spend time with the Lamanites/Nephites when they were living the gospel, had all things common and had no poor (3 Nephi and 4 Nephi).

I don't know who the Israelites were in the pre-existence as opposed to the Gentiles but the scriptures tell me that the Gentiles are a grafted branch. I believe that who we were in the pre-existence has had a role on when and where we were born on this earth. Maybe the Israelites needed to be instructed in a different way because they were more wicked; I don't know. I do know that the Gentiles were offered a similar covenant and that we have rejected it. There are poor amongst us and we do not have everything in common. We also build shopping malls.

Mike

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abijah
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Re: Biblical word game…

Post by abijah »

onefour1 wrote: December 8th, 2022, 6:38 pm Romans 1:26-32
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
I'm pretty sure this is about sex with angels. Paul here is comparing the "sons of God" + "daughters of men" situation of Genesis6 to the Sodom situation of Genesis19.

I don't quite understand it yet, but there's definitely a deep mystery there. Both Peter and Jude make the exact same comparison .

Sex with angels = the counterfeit uniting of heaven and earth, an extreme abomination of cosmic degree. We see this when Lot offers his daughters to the men of Sodom, seeing how apparently even that would've been preferable to what they were attempting.

onefour1
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Re: Biblical word game…

Post by onefour1 »

abijah wrote: December 9th, 2022, 9:13 am
onefour1 wrote: December 8th, 2022, 6:38 pm Romans 1:26-32
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
I'm pretty sure this is about sex with angels. Paul here is comparing the "sons of God" + "daughters of men" situation of Genesis6 to the Sodom situation of Genesis19.

I don't quite understand it yet, but there's definitely a deep mystery there. Both Peter and Jude make the exact same comparison .

Sex with angels = the counterfeit uniting of heaven and earth, an extreme abomination of cosmic degree. We see this when Lot offers his daughters to the men of Sodom, seeing how apparently even that would've been preferable to what they were attempting.
Hate to inform you but angels are mankind.

Doctrine and Covenants 130:4-5
4 In answer to the question—Is not the reckoning of God’s time, angel’s time, prophet’s time, and man’s time, according to the planet on which they reside?
5 I answer, Yes. But there are no angels who minister to this earth but those who do belong or have belonged to it.

In other words, all angels that ever administer to anyone on this earth were either someone who has already lived on this earth, are currently living on this earth, or will come to live on this earth as mankind.. Angels are either premortal spirits of mankind, mortal mankind, post mortal spirits of mankind, or resurrected souls of mankind who all belong to this earth as mankind.

The sons of God intermingling with the daughters of men were those men who were among the righteous followers of God who went after the women who were among the unrighteous and didn't follow God. This is taught by President Spencer W. Kimball in his book, Miracle of Forgiveness. Not only that but it is doctrine that Jesus Christ was the first to resurrect. This means that all angels before the days of Christ were premortal spirits or men on the earth. A premortal spirit is not capable of having sex with a mortal. There were no resurrected beings who could have come in the Old Testament since all angels belong to this earth and Christ was the first to resurrect. So unless it was men on this earth who were called the Sons of God then there is no other possibility. So it's self evident that this does not refer to other beings that were not mortal men on the earth. There was never any supernatural beings having sex with women on the earth.

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abijah
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Re: Biblical word game…

Post by abijah »

onefour1 wrote: December 9th, 2022, 6:47 pmHate to inform you but angels are mankind.

Doctrine and Covenants 130:4-5
4 In answer to the question—Is not the reckoning of God’s time, angel’s time, prophet’s time, and man’s time, according to the planet on which they reside?
5 I answer, Yes. But there are no angels who minister to this earth but those who do belong or have belonged to it.

In other words, all angels that ever administer to anyone on this earth were either someone who has already lived on this earth, are currently living on this earth, or will come to live on this earth as mankind...
Well I believe these things too. I don't quite see how this doctrine is inconsistent with what Paul, Peter and Jude all explicitly say on the matter, or at all incompatible with the larger scriptural nephilim account. If anything, this understanding of how angels = the spirits of men who belong to this earth sheds even more light to what Paul, Peter and Jude are saying, and provide even more context to the true nature and magnitude of the sin of sodom, and how it relates to the antediluvian nephilim-wives.

1 Corinthians 11
For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head, because of the angels.
onefour1 wrote: December 9th, 2022, 6:47 pmThe sons of God intermingling with the daughters of men were those men who were among the righteous followers of God who went after the women who were among the unrighteous and didn't follow God.
These are the same the thing - the same pattern - just on different scales. The two interpretations are probably much less mutually-exclusive than you might first think. Contrary to before, i know better now than to knock the 'sons of seth' interpretation as well. There are serious rabbitholes here (so many) you aren't aware of, and that I don't fully understand yet, certainly not well enough to articulate coherently in a post here, at least not yet.
onefour1 wrote: December 9th, 2022, 6:47 pm This is taught by President Spencer W. Kimball in his book, Miracle of Forgiveness.
*abijah facepalm*, 👍 ok cool, but upon closer examination you may just find that stale lds dogma and the timeless, expirementable truth in the scriptures may just not be the same thing at the end of the day, or even on the same level of comparison. We have truths no one else has/comprehends, but we have our share of false traditions as well. This particular false tradition however is certainly not unique to lds however, confusing the context surrounding the flood has likely been one of the adversary's chief goals in history, and has seemingly accomplished this fairly well, throughout nearly the entirety of modern/recent christendom. its origin is in rabbinic judaism, as a reaction to Christianity because of the Christ-affirming implications of the original/traditional `angelic` interpretation of Genesis 6.
onefour1 wrote: December 9th, 2022, 6:47 pmNot only that but it is doctrine that Jesus Christ was the first to resurrect. This means that all angels before the days of Christ were premortal spirits or men on the earth.
The nephilim births (which ultimately precipitate the need for a Flood) are presented in the scriptures as cosmic-scale miscarriages/abortions. (mind-blowing rabbithole here pertaining to the exodus`1 midwives who pharaoh tried to coerce to drown-in-the-flood/abort the hebrew man-babies) Image

Just as nephilim are counterfeit christs (offspring of a mortal women and a divine sire), so are nephilim incarnations counterfeit resurrections:

Isaiah 45
*Woe* unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, *What* hast thou brought forth?
onefour1 wrote: December 9th, 2022, 6:47 pmA premortal spirit is not capable of having sex with a mortal.

There were no resurrected beings who could have come in the Old Testament since all angels belong to this earth and Christ was the first to resurrect. So unless it was men on this earth who were called the Sons of God then there is no other possibility. So it's self evident that this does not refer to other beings that were not mortal men on the earth. There was never any supernatural beings having sex with women on the earth.
firstly, angels do physical things in the scriptures all the time (pre-resurrection).

Secondly, nephilim can still be born via satanic proxy-work (demonic-possessed ritual fornication with a temple/shrine prostitute), a la the bed of King Og.

Notwithstanding there are two empirical facts one cannot dispute:

Fact 1: Paul, Peter & Jude all three make a direct comparison between the *Genesis6 flood story* and the *Genesis19 sodom story*

Fact 2: the men of Sodom were trying to have sex with Lot's *angelic* visitors

The coexistence of ^these two facts shows that there is at least *some* basis in what I'm saying/speculating here.

Im just curious how people who dispute the scriptural nephilim/forsworn "sons of God" can possibly account for the way the New Testament talks about these pre-flood events, in comparison w/ the sin of sodom? Paul, Peter & Jude all present these two angels+humans narratives as being two sides of the same coin. Have you glanced at that other thread I hyperlinked in my prior post any chance? 🤔
🌈 all LGBTQP+ roads lead to the flood/nephilim...
abijah` wrote: November 20th, 2021, 5:09 pm I know it sounds silly and worthy of eyeroll, but when talking about what the scriptures say about the subject of gays - one simply cant ignore the fact that Paul, Jude as well as Peter all make a direct comparison between the Sodomites of Genesis 19, and the SonsofGod + MortalDaughters situation of Genesis 6:

Jude
And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—
just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Romans 1
they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
and in the same way the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

2 Peter 2
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;
if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
and as by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly

2 Peter 3
For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God,
and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished.
But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

onefour1
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Posts: 1596

Re: Biblical word game…

Post by onefour1 »

abijah wrote: December 11th, 2022, 11:37 pm
onefour1 wrote: December 9th, 2022, 6:47 pmHate to inform you but angels are mankind.

Doctrine and Covenants 130:4-5
4 In answer to the question—Is not the reckoning of God’s time, angel’s time, prophet’s time, and man’s time, according to the planet on which they reside?
5 I answer, Yes. But there are no angels who minister to this earth but those who do belong or have belonged to it.

In other words, all angels that ever administer to anyone on this earth were either someone who has already lived on this earth, are currently living on this earth, or will come to live on this earth as mankind...
Well I believe these things too. I don't quite see how this doctrine is inconsistent with what Paul, Peter and Jude all explicitly say on the matter, or at all incompatible with the larger scriptural nephilim account. If anything, this understanding of how angels = the spirits of men who belong to this earth sheds even more light to what Paul, Peter and Jude are saying, and provide even more context to the true nature and magnitude of the sin of sodom, and how it relates to the antediluvian nephilim-wives.

1 Corinthians 11
For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head, because of the angels.
onefour1 wrote: December 9th, 2022, 6:47 pmThe sons of God intermingling with the daughters of men were those men who were among the righteous followers of God who went after the women who were among the unrighteous and didn't follow God.
These are the same the thing - the same pattern - just on different scales. The two interpretations are probably much less mutually-exclusive than you might first think. Contrary to before, i know better now than to knock the 'sons of seth' interpretation as well. There are serious rabbitholes here (so many) you aren't aware of, and that I don't fully understand yet, certainly not well enough to articulate coherently in a post here, at least not yet.
onefour1 wrote: December 9th, 2022, 6:47 pm This is taught by President Spencer W. Kimball in his book, Miracle of Forgiveness.
*abijah facepalm*, 👍 ok cool, but upon closer examination you may just find that stale lds dogma and the timeless, expirementable truth in the scriptures may just not be the same thing at the end of the day, or even on the same level of comparison. We have truths no one else has/comprehends, but we have our share of false traditions as well. This particular false tradition however is certainly not unique to lds however, confusing the context surrounding the flood has likely been one of the adversary's chief goals in history, and has seemingly accomplished this fairly well, throughout nearly the entirety of modern/recent christendom. its origin is in rabbinic judaism, as a reaction to Christianity because of the Christ-affirming implications of the original/traditional `angelic` interpretation of Genesis 6.
onefour1 wrote: December 9th, 2022, 6:47 pmNot only that but it is doctrine that Jesus Christ was the first to resurrect. This means that all angels before the days of Christ were premortal spirits or men on the earth.
The nephilim births (which ultimately precipitate the need for a Flood) are presented in the scriptures as cosmic-scale miscarriages/abortions. (mind-blowing rabbithole here pertaining to the exodus`1 midwives who pharaoh tried to coerce to drown-in-the-flood/abort the hebrew man-babies) Image

Just as nephilim are counterfeit christs (offspring of a mortal women and a divine sire), so are nephilim incarnations counterfeit resurrections:

Isaiah 45
*Woe* unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, *What* hast thou brought forth?
onefour1 wrote: December 9th, 2022, 6:47 pmA premortal spirit is not capable of having sex with a mortal.

There were no resurrected beings who could have come in the Old Testament since all angels belong to this earth and Christ was the first to resurrect. So unless it was men on this earth who were called the Sons of God then there is no other possibility. So it's self evident that this does not refer to other beings that were not mortal men on the earth. There was never any supernatural beings having sex with women on the earth.
firstly, angels do physical things in the scriptures all the time (pre-resurrection).

Secondly, nephilim can still be born via satanic proxy-work (demonic-possessed ritual fornication with a temple/shrine prostitute), a la the bed of King Og.

Notwithstanding there are two empirical facts one cannot dispute:

Fact 1: Paul, Peter & Jude all three make a direct comparison between the *Genesis6 flood story* and the *Genesis19 sodom story*

Fact 2: the men of Sodom were trying to have sex with Lot's *angelic* visitors

The coexistence of ^these two facts shows that there is at least *some* basis in what I'm saying/speculating here.

Im just curious how people who dispute the scriptural nephilim/forsworn "sons of God" can possibly account for the way the New Testament talks about these pre-flood events, in comparison w/ the sin of sodom? Paul, Peter & Jude all present these two angels+humans narratives as being two sides of the same coin. Have you glanced at that other thread I hyperlinked in my prior post any chance? 🤔
🌈 all LGBTQP+ roads lead to the flood/nephilim...
abijah` wrote: November 20th, 2021, 5:09 pm I know it sounds silly and worthy of eyeroll, but when talking about what the scriptures say about the subject of gays - one simply cant ignore the fact that Paul, Jude as well as Peter all make a direct comparison between the Sodomites of Genesis 19, and the SonsofGod + MortalDaughters situation of Genesis 6:

Jude
And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—
just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Romans 1
they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
and in the same way the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

2 Peter 2
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;
if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
and as by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly

2 Peter 3
For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God,
and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished.
But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
Nothing in scripture proves that the Sons of God were unembodied spirits. Nothing you are saying above proves that point either. Satan and his angels and all other disembodied spirits are not capable of procreation. A resurrected being probably does not have the power to procreate either unless they are exalted into the kingdom of heaven. Since all angels who administer to this earth belong to this earth according to the revelation, and since Christ was the first to resurrect, no ministering spirit to this earth before the days of Christ who was not already living upon the earth as a mortal was capable of having a body of flesh and bones. Thus the only possibility of procreating on this earth was between mortal man and woman on this earth.

Now if you want to believe that disembodied spirits can procreate that is up to you. But I certainly do not believe it and if they could, Satan and his fallen minions are probably having lots and lots of children as we speak. The two facts you bring up:

Notwithstanding there are two empirical facts one cannot dispute:

Fact 1: Paul, Peter & Jude all three make a direct comparison between the *Genesis6 flood story* and the *Genesis19 sodom story*

Fact 2: the men of Sodom were trying to have sex with Lot's *angelic* visitors

I don't see any verse by Peter, Paul, and Jude that goes against the idea presented or proves that the sons of God were disembodied spirits. The angels you speak of who visited Lot were mortal men. Read the entire chapter and you will see evidence of this.

GENESIS CHAPTER 19

Lot entertains holy men—The men of Sodom seek to abuse Lot’s guests and are smitten with blindness—Lot is sent out of Sodom—The Lord rains brimstone and fire upon Sodom and Gomorrah—Lot’s daughters preserve his seed in the land.

1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant’s house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.

3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:

5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.

12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:

The verse above, although they are referred to as angels, were referenced by the men of Sodom as men and also mentioned in other verses as men. Lot cooked them a meal and they did eat of it and they were going to sleep through the night at Lots home. These do not sound like unembodied spirits but mortal holy men who came to destroy the city. They also washed their feet. JST Genesis 19:18 calls them Holy men. I think these men were called angels because they were sent to delivery a message from God and not because they were disembodied spirits.

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Craig Johnson
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Posts: 1991
Location: Washington State.

Re: Biblical word game…

Post by Craig Johnson »

Bronco73idi wrote: December 6th, 2022, 12:54 pm Let’s look at words/actions = sin

Sex with wife when bleeding = abomination
Leviticus 20:18

Men having sex with men (eunuchs) = abomination
Leviticus 20:13

Women having sex with women…… nothing

Married Man having sex with non married women = concubines = abomination
5 times in BOM

Married woman having sex with another man (married or single) = adultery

Married man putting away his wife = adultery
Why is this worse then concubines?

It’s almost like marriage is like our savior’s relationship with us. He is the bridegroom and we are the bride. We need a bride to become like him.

Hmmmm, is this act of marriage deeper then what we see?

Go ahead and fix my errors, I’m here to learn also.

Edit: Added a couple scripture references
Oh, marriage, I thought this was about sex.

Bronco73idi
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Posts: 3623

Re: Biblical word game…

Post by Bronco73idi »

Craig Johnson wrote: December 12th, 2022, 10:50 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: December 6th, 2022, 12:54 pm Let’s look at words/actions = sin

Sex with wife when bleeding = abomination
Leviticus 20:18

Men having sex with men (eunuchs) = abomination
Leviticus 20:13

Women having sex with women…… nothing

Married Man having sex with non married women = concubines = abomination
5 times in BOM

Married woman having sex with another man (married or single) = adultery

Married man putting away his wife = adultery
Why is this worse then concubines?

It’s almost like marriage is like our savior’s relationship with us. He is the bridegroom and we are the bride. We need a bride to become like him.

Hmmmm, is this act of marriage deeper then what we see?

Go ahead and fix my errors, I’m here to learn also.

Edit: Added a couple scripture references
Oh, marriage, I thought this was about sex.
It’s all connected..

10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

All men cannot receive this saying, is saying there is a lot more to it then just saying “I do”.

Ie we have polluted the covenant of marriage way before 2013 (federally legal for same sex marriage before it was overturned to the states)

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Craig Johnson
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Re: Biblical word game…

Post by Craig Johnson »

Bronco73idi wrote: December 13th, 2022, 1:36 pm Oh, marriage, I thought this was about sex.
It’s all connected..

10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

All men cannot receive this saying, is saying there is a lot more to it then just saying “I do”.

Ie we have polluted the covenant of marriage way before 2013 (federally legal for same sex marriage before it was overturned to the states)
[/quote]

I think that if a man loves a woman and she loves him it is okay for them to get married.
If they want to be together forever it is okay to get married in the temple.
If a person can't find someone of the opposite sex that they love and want to marry then they probably should not get married, rather than marry someone they do not love or be forced into a marriage of convenience for others or for profit.
I also think it is wrong to encourage immorality of any kind, sex should only be between a man and woman who are married, it is not approved of scripture to have sex in any other situation.
Same-sex marriage, although granted by law is not approved of in scripture. They can legally do this though and evidently they can apply for support in court if they get divorced.
To my mind this besmirches what marriage is and I do not condone it, but, hey, I'm not going to beat anyone up or try to force them to accept what scripture says. This all comes down to their choices and the resultant consequences will all be theirs.
But marriage is good, if there is love between a man and a woman and they decide to marry.

Bronco73idi
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Re: Biblical word game…

Post by Bronco73idi »

Craig Johnson wrote: December 13th, 2022, 1:53 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: December 13th, 2022, 1:36 pm
It’s all connected..

10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

All men cannot receive this saying, is saying there is a lot more to it then just saying “I do”.

Ie we have polluted the covenant of marriage way before 2013 (federally legal for same sex marriage before it was overturned to the states)
I think that if a man loves a woman and she loves him it is okay for them to get married.
If they want to be together forever it is okay to get married in the temple.
If a person can't find someone of the opposite sex that they love and want to marry then they probably should not get married, rather than marry someone they do not love or be forced into a marriage of convenience for others or for profit.
I also think it is wrong to encourage immorality of any kind, sex should only be between a man and woman who are married, it is not approved of scripture to have sex in any other situation.
Same-sex marriage, although granted by law is not approved of in scripture. They can legally do this though and evidently they can apply for support in court if they get divorced.
To my mind this besmirches what marriage is and I do not condone it, but, hey, I'm not going to beat anyone up or try to force them to accept what scripture says. This all comes down to their choices and the resultant consequences will all be theirs.
But marriage is good, if there is love between a man and a woman and they decide to marry.
Did the lord say that his father is the god of the living? Did he not also say, “I said, ye are gods”

Are we not supposed to strive to be like our brother? We can not put away a wife just like the lord will not put away us… a wife can leave and if she remarries the man who marries her commits adultery. “and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.”

A wife can still commit adultery but the marriage covenant responsibility is more on the priesthood holder per the Lord in Matthew 19:3-9

We have polluted this covenant by not teaching all of it to young men and women before they marry.

Like I said in the original post, I’m here to learn. I want to base our opinions on the words of the lord. I’m keeping my discussion on the lord’s direct words but any prophet words are fine.

I wish we would base our teachings directly from the lord’s words.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Biblical word game…

Post by Robin Hood »

Bronco73idi wrote: December 6th, 2022, 12:54 pm Let’s look at words/actions = sin

Sex with wife when bleeding = abomination
Leviticus 20:18

Men having sex with men (eunuchs) = abomination
Leviticus 20:13

Women having sex with women…… nothing

Married Man having sex with non married women = concubines = abomination
5 times in BOM

Married woman having sex with another man (married or single) = adultery

Married man putting away his wife = adultery
Why is this worse then concubines?

It’s almost like marriage is like our savior’s relationship with us. He is the bridegroom and we are the bride. We need a bride to become like him.

Hmmmm, is this act of marriage deeper then what we see?

Go ahead and fix my errors, I’m here to learn also.

Edit: Added a couple scripture references
Women having sex with women is described as a vile affection in the New Testament.

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Niemand
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Re: Biblical word game…

Post by Niemand »

A concubine is more like a common-law wife than a casual encounter.

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Craig Johnson
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Posts: 1991
Location: Washington State.

Re: Biblical word game…

Post by Craig Johnson »

Bronco73idi wrote: December 13th, 2022, 2:31 pm
Did the lord say that his father is the god of the living? Did he not also say, “I said, ye are gods”

Are we not supposed to strive to be like our brother? We can not put away a wife just like the lord will not put away us… a wife can leave and if she remarries the man who marries her commits adultery. “and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.”

A wife can still commit adultery but the marriage covenant responsibility is more on the priesthood holder per the Lord in Matthew 19:3-9

We have polluted this covenant by not teaching all of it to young men and women before they marry.

Like I said in the original post, I’m here to learn. I want to base our opinions on the words of the lord. I’m keeping my discussion on the lord’s direct words but any prophet words are fine.

I wish we would base our teachings directly from the lord’s words.
I agree very much with you, and I also know that the Lord did not write anything. The Lord wrote nothing, except the 10 commandments on stone which we do not have, we have what the prophet told us was written and the Lord may have written some other things on walls or floors, etcetera, which we do not have, we have only what the prophets have written.
We receive all revelations from the Lord through His prophets and we can receive our own revelations from Him for ourselves and our family.
I taught my children these things, but everyone gets to decide individually what they are going to do.
I don't stress out about these things (I used to!), the Lord has told us to receive the gospel through His prophets and that is what I have done.
If you are having an issue with someone who refuses to accept what the Lord says through His prophets you may want to try just being calm and gentle and trying to lead them to Him, they might go and they might not. But at least you tried. In that way you can be like the prophets, they also are not trying to force us to do anything, only to do good due to our own consciences.
So, I agree, we should all teach what the Lord has taught us through His prophets, and we should be very cautious in how we do that.

Bronco73idi
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Posts: 3623

Re: Biblical word game…

Post by Bronco73idi »

Robin Hood wrote: December 13th, 2022, 2:34 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: December 6th, 2022, 12:54 pm Let’s look at words/actions = sin

Sex with wife when bleeding = abomination
Leviticus 20:18

Men having sex with men (eunuchs) = abomination
Leviticus 20:13

Women having sex with women…… nothing

Married Man having sex with non married women = concubines = abomination
5 times in BOM

Married woman having sex with another man (married or single) = adultery

Married man putting away his wife = adultery
Why is this worse then concubines?

It’s almost like marriage is like our savior’s relationship with us. He is the bridegroom and we are the bride. We need a bride to become like him.

Hmmmm, is this act of marriage deeper then what we see?

Go ahead and fix my errors, I’m here to learn also.

Edit: Added a couple scripture references
Women having sex with women is described as a vile affection in the New Testament.
Onefour1 let us know in a few post from the 1st.

Romans 1:26-32

I should have edited it when I had the chance.

Bronco73idi
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Posts: 3623

Re: Biblical word game…

Post by Bronco73idi »

Craig Johnson wrote: December 13th, 2022, 2:46 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: December 13th, 2022, 2:31 pm
Did the lord say that his father is the god of the living? Did he not also say, “I said, ye are gods”

Are we not supposed to strive to be like our brother? We can not put away a wife just like the lord will not put away us… a wife can leave and if she remarries the man who marries her commits adultery. “and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.”

A wife can still commit adultery but the marriage covenant responsibility is more on the priesthood holder per the Lord in Matthew 19:3-9

We have polluted this covenant by not teaching all of it to young men and women before they marry.

Like I said in the original post, I’m here to learn. I want to base our opinions on the words of the lord. I’m keeping my discussion on the lord’s direct words but any prophet words are fine.

I wish we would base our teachings directly from the lord’s words.
I agree very much with you, and I also know that the Lord did not write anything. The Lord wrote nothing, except the 10 commandments on stone which we do not have, we have what the prophet told us was written and the Lord may have written some other things on walls or floors, etcetera, which we do not have, we have only what the prophets have written.
We receive all revelations from the Lord through His prophets and we can receive our own revelations from Him for ourselves and our family.
I taught my children these things, but everyone gets to decide individually what they are going to do.
I don't stress out about these things (I used to!), the Lord has told us to receive the gospel through His prophets and that is what I have done.
If you are having an issue with someone who refuses to accept what the Lord says through His prophets you may want to try just being calm and gentle and trying to lead them to Him, they might go and they might not. But at least you tried. In that way you can be like the prophets, they also are not trying to force us to do anything, only to do good due to our own consciences.
So, I agree, we should all teach what the Lord has taught us through His prophets, and we should be very cautious in how we do that.
I tell people all the time, the lord is the main author of all scripture and his prophets are the coauthors that scribe it down. I understand you are saying the opposite which would explain errors. I’m fine with either way.

This conversation is not a personal issue with me. It’s something I have noticed in our blasphemy of a handbook and actions of divorce in wards I have been too.

Personally I have more of an issue with a man who called himself an apostle in our (LDS) church when he mocked Isaiah 6:10. He rationalized it as “nothing, improper wording if you will”. I was going to raise my hand and read 2 nephi 16:10 but the still small voice said no, I’m there to observe.

I can not sustain him as an apostle.

Back to the word game.

The lord commanded us to know his words, or we are spiritually blind and deaf. Matthew 13:10-13

So I stand with my opinion of understanding. The marriage covenant is liken to the lord’s covenant with his people and the priesthood holder is the one who is responsible for keeping and understanding this covenant.

How can we gain the sealed portion if we don’t truly understand what we have?

Bronco73idi
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Posts: 3623

Re: Biblical word game…

Post by Bronco73idi »

Niemand wrote: December 13th, 2022, 2:43 pm A concubine is more like a common-law wife than a casual encounter.
Or another family. “He is with his concubine and other kids!”

Concubines were not adultery in the lord’s day.

It would be like the lord preaching to the swine and dogs during his earthly mission. He was there for the children of Israel.

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Craig Johnson
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Posts: 1991
Location: Washington State.

Re: Biblical word game…

Post by Craig Johnson »

Bronco73idi wrote: December 13th, 2022, 3:55 pm
I tell people all the time, the lord is the main author of all scripture and his prophets are the coauthors that scribe it down. I understand you are saying the opposite which would explain errors. I’m fine with either way.

This conversation is not a personal issue with me. It’s something I have noticed in our blasphemy of a handbook and actions of divorce in wards I have been too.

Personally I have more of an issue with a man who called himself an apostle in our (LDS) church when he mocked Isaiah 6:10. He rationalized it as “nothing, improper wording if you will”. I was going to raise my hand and read 2 nephi 16:10 but the still small voice said no, I’m there to observe.

I can not sustain him as an apostle.

Back to the word game.

The lord commanded us to know his words, or we are spiritually blind and deaf. Matthew 13:10-13

So I stand with my opinion of understanding. The marriage covenant is liken to the lord’s covenant with his people and the priesthood holder is the one who is responsible for keeping and understanding this covenant.

How can we gain the sealed portion if we don’t truly understand what we have?
I accept all the apostles.
They are sent to reveal God's word to us. They are very special ministers.
The bible is a book of books that has been handed down to us through people we do not know.
We know the apostles and we can trust them. At least I think that and know it in my heart.
Also, it is proper for you and an apostle to have a differing opinion on things, there is nothing wrong with that.
He thinks what he thinks about certain things through his study and you have the same privilege.
But, when it comes to his official office and the invoking of apostolic authority, when that happens, which is rare, then we must sit up and listen and make sure we follow and believe what the Lord tells us through him. He is not going to lie and tell you the Lord said something that He did not actually say, that is something you CAN trust. But everyone is allowed, otherwise, to have an opinion about many things. For instance, where is Mount Sinai? No one KNOWS, but you can come to an opinion on it. Also, there are sayings in the bible that seem contradictory and if they are not clarified by any authority then we can have an opinion on them, and it is not an official opinion.
It is telling how few revelations have been officially given since the death of our beloved prophet and apostle, Joseph Smith.
This is because we are not, as a group, following God's word very well, so why would we need more yet?
I do not agree with all the opinions of the apostles, but I do agree with their authority and their revelations, if they have an opinion about something that does not constitute a revelation we are free to study the matter and have our own opinion.
Otherwise, if it is an official proclamation, we are duty bound and honor bound by our sacred covenants to follow and sustain.
We are not to be stubborn and refuse to support an authority because he has an opinion that we do not share.
I hope this is helpful.

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Niemand
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Re: Biblical word game…

Post by Niemand »

I asked about the lesbian question before. In this instance, I believe woke people are on to something. In many western countries a woman could not be done for raping a woman (or a man) because such emphasis was put on penetrative sex. Thankfully this has been rectified in some countries, but even the Bible talks far less about this than the male equivalent.

I believe this Bible verse deals partly with paedophilia:
It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

Bronco73idi
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Posts: 3623

Re: Biblical word game…

Post by Bronco73idi »

Craig Johnson wrote: December 13th, 2022, 5:03 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: December 13th, 2022, 3:55 pm
I tell people all the time, the lord is the main author of all scripture and his prophets are the coauthors that scribe it down. I understand you are saying the opposite which would explain errors. I’m fine with either way.

This conversation is not a personal issue with me. It’s something I have noticed in our blasphemy of a handbook and actions of divorce in wards I have been too.

Personally I have more of an issue with a man who called himself an apostle in our (LDS) church when he mocked Isaiah 6:10. He rationalized it as “nothing, improper wording if you will”. I was going to raise my hand and read 2 nephi 16:10 but the still small voice said no, I’m there to observe.

I can not sustain him as an apostle.

Back to the word game.

The lord commanded us to know his words, or we are spiritually blind and deaf. Matthew 13:10-13

So I stand with my opinion of understanding. The marriage covenant is liken to the lord’s covenant with his people and the priesthood holder is the one who is responsible for keeping and understanding this covenant.

How can we gain the sealed portion if we don’t truly understand what we have?
I accept all the apostles.
They are sent to reveal God's word to us. They are very special ministers.
The bible is a book of books that has been handed down to us through people we do not know.
We know the apostles and we can trust them. At least I think that and know it in my heart.
Also, it is proper for you and an apostle to have a differing opinion on things, there is nothing wrong with that.
He thinks what he thinks about certain things through his study and you have the same privilege.
But, when it comes to his official office and the invoking of apostolic authority, when that happens, which is rare, then we must sit up and listen and make sure we follow and believe what the Lord tells us through him. He is not going to lie and tell you the Lord said something that He did not actually say, that is something you CAN trust. But everyone is allowed, otherwise, to have an opinion about many things. For instance, where is Mount Sinai? No one KNOWS, but you can come to an opinion on it. Also, there are sayings in the bible that seem contradictory and if they are not clarified by any authority then we can have an opinion on them, and it is not an official opinion.
It is telling how few revelations have been officially given since the death of our beloved prophet and apostle, Joseph Smith.
This is because we are not, as a group, following God's word very well, so why would we need more yet?
I do not agree with all the opinions of the apostles, but I do agree with their authority and their revelations, if they have an opinion about something that does not constitute a revelation we are free to study the matter and have our own opinion.
Otherwise, if it is an official proclamation, we are duty bound and honor bound by our sacred covenants to follow and sustain.
We are not to be stubborn and refuse to support an authority because he has an opinion that we do not share.
I hope this is helpful.
I understand the timeline of scripture and the painstaking job it was for clergy to maintain the record. It wasn’t until roughly 450ad that the book of revelation was added into the NT of the Bible.


29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This unprofitable servant who was given one talent was cast into outer darkness.

I’ll start from the beginning.

I had the privilege to go to a special fireside recently with a man who called himself an apostle, David A. Bednar of the LDS church (our church). It was a Q&A style fireside. I have never been to a fireside before but I’m told that it wasn’t standard. All of his answer were generic. He said I’m going to start generic and then dive deeper if need be. The answer that bother me was a question from a lady dealing with Isaiah 6:10, she read it out loud. Her question was, why would the lord deliberately want to “Make the heart of this people fat”. He started with the joke, no one really understands Isaiah. I had no problem with that, the issue I had is that he then asked something to the words, “where else in the Bible does the lord talk like that, we don’t know if it’s translated properly.” He also said at some point, look at how he made the pharaoh with Moses (exodus) harden his heart.

I wanted to say 2 Nephi 16:10 is where we can judge Isaiah 6:10 but the still small voice told me no, I’m just there to listen.

To say Isaiah 2-14 might not be translated properly or to say Isaiah is two different prophets is to say the Book of Mormon is false. We have Isaiah 2-14 in 2 Nephi 12-24, Isaiah 29 in 2 Nephi 27, Isaiah 48-49 in 1 Nephi 20-21.

Where else does the lord talk in vengeance? Matthew 25:30 or Luke 12:49-57 is an excellent start!

This isn’t about opinion. If the lord said the servant who buries a talent (the word) will be cast down then what would happen to a man who testifies as the lord’s servant. Then tells people that the scripture might not be translated properly, should he not know the BOM well enough to understand that it’s in the BOM and says the same thing? I would say this is worse then not acting.

I can not in good conciseness sustain him as an apostle.

Edit to add name, since Luke asked in a couple of posts.
Last edited by Bronco73idi on December 14th, 2022, 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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