Polygamous Prophet Arrested

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darknesstolight
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Re: Polygamous Prophet Arrested

Post by darknesstolight »

Monogamy a "peculiar marriage system"

"2 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth."

...

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darknesstolight
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Re: Polygamous Prophet Arrested

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Now take notice. Although legally most countries only allow monogamy, the reality is that especially in the US we practice social monogamy. That means we are not really living God's commandment only on the surface but so many in our society live polygamy, an abomination, promiscuity, affairs, adultery, all forms of polygamy.

That means that a person who is truly monogamous is a rare and a precious thing. Again polygamy is natural, the way of the flesh. A huge percentage of people even who live in monogamous societies and on the surface are monogamous are actually promiscuous, and polygamous.

Monogamy, true monogamous relationships, are peculiar, rare, and divine.

...
Last edited by darknesstolight on December 6th, 2022, 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

FoundMyEden
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Re: Polygamous Prophet Arrested

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Luke wrote: December 6th, 2022, 6:42 am
FoundMyEden wrote: December 5th, 2022, 7:29 pm
Luke wrote: December 5th, 2022, 7:11 pm
tmac wrote: December 4th, 2022, 9:35 pm . . . just because he’s a polygamist.
Pretty much sums up every polygamy-related situation ever. Polygamists are hated and cast out and persecuted for doing nothing except live their religion (which should give us a pretty good idea of whether it’s Godly or not—hint: it is).

But God is about to perform a complete reversal of circumstances. He’s about to exalt the polygamists, and damn the haters.

Not too long now. I have to admit I’m quite excited for this great vindication which is fast on the way.
They’re not hated where I come from. I just don’t want to be one.

Why so much hate and vindication towards the heterosexual’s? We seem to have more children than the polygamists do.
Not sure “heterosexual” is the right word to use. I’m pretty sure that Abraham and David were heterosexuals.
Yes you’re correct…I left out “monogamous”heterosexuals. But my point is still the same.

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TheDuke
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Re: Polygamous Prophet Arrested

Post by TheDuke »

It seems perfectly clear as Reluctant has said a couple of times. Monogamy is the law and Polygamy when he commands otherwise. Seems it has always been this way, except for Israel that had many exceptions and mandated polygamy at times (i.e. Ruth etc....) as a rule of law. I have stated before that I think the "command" part is not a dispensation thing but a very specific commandment for each marriage. so, I agree BY seemed to do it wrong. IMO. but, that doesn't mean it was 100% wrong.

I also see some conflation between earthly marriages and celestial marriages. Unfortunately we have to live on this earth for some tome in an earthly marriage to obtain a celestial marriage. We have in all forms of Christianity (minus a few offshoot sects) monogamy and most legal systems as well. I guess the only formally sanctioned celestial marriages in Christianity (LDS only ones who believe in CPM anyway) in the vast reaches of first world countries; today requires either death (widower) or divorce to be legally created. If an individual received the command from god to have plural wives, it would contradict most/all religious and civil laws and would surely seem complex.

The main issue I have here in this thread is that the OP and story are about pedophilia and about forcing children into sex. It isn't about polygamy at all. It is about perversion and slavery. It is just that LDS FF loves to dive into personal polygamy fetishes. Polygamy and perversions are not the the same thing. I just said that I don't believe god wants or supports general forms of polygamy but the truth is that from the civil side, it appears that anything goes if no one is harmed. So, in that sense polygamy should be acceptable though limited perhaps in legal liabilities, tax dodges, etc.... but it isn't.

And lastly, I don't think when the Lord does command or allow polygamy that it is about sex or control or even spreading children, it is about a higher law of love. Pretty tired of seeing god's laws always turned to base animalistic assumptions. Sure that is what happens when it gets institutionalized, but that is why god protects this and takes it away from everyone, at least at this time.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Polygamous Prophet Arrested

Post by Shawn Henry »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: December 6th, 2022, 6:45 am Sorry man, but Jacob 2 isn't that complex.
He's quoting the Savior, who could write complexities in his sleep. Verse 30 alone is the epitome of complexity. Think about it. Here we have a verse that could be read both ways, allowing for the desires of one's heart to favor one of the two readings. Do you really think that is coincidence? Do you realize the complexity needed to do that? It first reads as maybe the exception, but when studied more closely, it is not. Most of scripture is written so as to reward a deeper reading.

Also, there is nothing complex about the Lord saying in 1 Nephi 7 that he wants to "raise up seed" and therefore he commanded Lehi monogamy. Once you read the exact same language in Jacob and understand this has already happened, why won't you then look for a different context? It's already been explained in simplicity.

Scriptures are filled with such word links, that's how the Holy Spirit works when speaking to prophets.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Polygamous Prophet Arrested

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Shawn Henry wrote: December 6th, 2022, 11:14 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: December 6th, 2022, 6:45 am Sorry man, but Jacob 2 isn't that complex.
He's quoting the Savior, who could write complexities in his sleep. Verse 30 alone is the epitome of complexity. Think about it. Here we have a verse that could be read both ways, allowing for the desires of one's heart to favor one of the two readings. Do you really think that is coincidence? Do you realize the complexity needed to do that? It first reads as maybe the exception, but when studied more closely, it is not. Most of scripture is written so as to reward a deeper reading.

Also, there is nothing complex about the Lord saying in 1 Nephi 7 that he wants to "raise up seed" and therefore he commanded Lehi monogamy. Once you read the exact same language in Jacob and understand this has already happened, why won't you then look for a different context? It's already been explained in simplicity.

Scriptures are filled with such word links, that's how the Holy Spirit works when speaking to prophets.
And sometimes we make things way more complicated than they need to be.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Polygamous Prophet Arrested

Post by Shawn Henry »

TheDuke wrote: December 6th, 2022, 10:09 am Monogamy is the law and Polygamy when he commands otherwise.
You're twisting how "otherwise" was used. The otherwise refers to the fact that if he doesn't set a law, anarchy will result. He commands monogamy, otherwise they will hearken unto these abominable things.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Polygamous Prophet Arrested

Post by Shawn Henry »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: December 6th, 2022, 11:15 am And sometimes we make things way more complicated than they need to be.
And here you are, reaching for the greatest complexity and impossibility, trying to make an abomination a higher law.

Here's an intellectual challenge for you. Find any other abomination and show me how it can sometimes be a higher law.

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darknesstolight
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Re: Polygamous Prophet Arrested

Post by darknesstolight »

TheDuke wrote: December 6th, 2022, 10:09 am It seems perfectly clear as Reluctant has said a couple of times. Monogamy is the law and Polygamy when he commands otherwise. Seems it has always been this way, except for Israel that had many exceptions and mandated polygamy at times (i.e. Ruth etc....) as a rule of law. I have stated before that I think the "command" part is not a dispensation thing but a very specific commandment for each marriage. so, I agree BY seemed to do it wrong. IMO. but, that doesn't mean it was 100% wrong.

I also see some conflation between earthly marriages and celestial marriages. Unfortunately we have to live on this earth for some tome in an earthly marriage to obtain a celestial marriage. We have in all forms of Christianity (minus a few offshoot sects) monogamy and most legal systems as well. I guess the only formally sanctioned celestial marriages in Christianity (LDS only ones who believe in CPM anyway) in the vast reaches of first world countries; today requires either death (widower) or divorce to be legally created. If an individual received the command from god to have plural wives, it would contradict most/all religious and civil laws and would surely seem complex.

The main issue I have here in this thread is that the OP and story are about pedophilia and about forcing children into sex. It isn't about polygamy at all. It is about perversion and slavery. It is just that LDS FF loves to dive into personal polygamy fetishes. Polygamy and perversions are not the the same thing. I just said that I don't believe god wants or supports general forms of polygamy but the truth is that from the civil side, it appears that anything goes if no one is harmed. So, in that sense polygamy should be acceptable though limited perhaps in legal liabilities, tax dodges, etc.... but it isn't.

And lastly, I don't think when the Lord does command or allow polygamy that it is about sex or control or even spreading children, it is about a higher law of love. Pretty tired of seeing god's laws always turned to base animalistic assumptions. Sure that is what happens when it gets institutionalized, but that is why god protects this and takes it away from everyone, at least at this time.
And the content of your post tells us why you still think God has ever commanded it because you ignore the data that shows that abuse and perversions are a feature of polygamy.

Polygamy and abused children, abused wives, jealousies, power struggles, neglect, loneliness, depression and anxiety are the empirical fruits of polygamy as in its a feature of polygamy as compared to monogamy.

...

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Polygamous Prophet Arrested

Post by Shawn Henry »

Bronco73idi wrote: December 5th, 2022, 4:49 pm Peter
Where are you referencing a connection to Peter with polygamy?

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darknesstolight
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Re: Polygamous Prophet Arrested

Post by darknesstolight »

"By shifting male efforts from seeking wives to paternal investment, normative monogamy increases savings, child investment and economic productivity."

Beautiful.

...

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Polygamous Prophet Arrested

Post by Shawn Henry »

Mindfields wrote: December 6th, 2022, 5:37 am
Shawn Henry wrote: December 5th, 2022, 4:38 pm
Mindfields wrote: December 5th, 2022, 3:52 pm I don't believe in an inerrant Bible. Mormon scripture isn't much better.
What is left for your foundation?
Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do.” (3 Nephi 27)
• Repent.
• Baptism of water.
• Reception of Holy Ghost.
• Baptism of Fire. (Then, and only then, are you on the right path. XR 2 Nephi 31)
• Love God and fellow man.
• Endure to the end.

The Book of Mormon contains the Gospel of Jesus Christ along with other nonsense e.g. ship building, temple building, historically troublesome, anachronisms. The D&C and the Pearl of Great Price are Dodgey at best with parts of it being outright fraudulent and it's not to be trusted in my opinion.
I'm glad you are set on the gospel, I know in the end, that will suffice.

Your words prompt another question though, if I may. I completely understand the PoGP, it was not finished, and the Lord commanded that it not go forward until the work was complete, but the BoM was finished and had multiple witnesses for it. How do you reconcile picking and choosing which parts are scripture?

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Polygamous Prophet Arrested

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Shawn Henry wrote: December 6th, 2022, 11:34 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: December 6th, 2022, 11:15 am And sometimes we make things way more complicated than they need to be.
And here you are, reaching for the greatest complexity and impossibility, trying to make an abomination a higher law.

Here's an intellectual challenge for you. Find any other abomination and show me how it can sometimes be a higher law.
Haha, I'm actually "reaching" for the simplicity in Christ's message given in Jacob 2. You are the one reaching for complexity.

Oh, and for an example, Nephi murdering Laban. The only way this abomination was acceptable was when the Lord commanded it. Sames goes for Captain Moroni. War and murder are never sanctioned unless strictly commanded by the Lord.

Bronco73idi
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Re: Polygamous Prophet Arrested

Post by Bronco73idi »

Shawn Henry wrote: December 6th, 2022, 11:41 am
Bronco73idi wrote: December 5th, 2022, 4:49 pm Peter
Where are you referencing a connection to Peter with polygamy?
Peter and Jesus.....

There is "no current copy" of Celsus thesis The True Word. We have Origen Rebuttal and he doesn't address the practice of Polygamy with Jesus and his apostles.

Either Elder Jedediah M. Grant is a liar and good story teller or the church has a copy of The True Word....

Discourse by Elder Jedediah M. Grant page 345 and 346 talks about polygamy:
https://jod.mrm.org/1/341

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Polygamous Prophet Arrested

Post by Shawn Henry »

Bronco73idi wrote: December 6th, 2022, 12:07 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: December 6th, 2022, 11:41 am
Bronco73idi wrote: December 5th, 2022, 4:49 pm Peter
Where are you referencing a connection to Peter with polygamy?
There is "no current copy" of Celsus thesis The True Word.
We should probably be sticking to scripture, don't you think. Figures you'd resort to something unsubstantiated that only you have heard of. By the way, my Uncle Mike had a revelation that you are wrong, only I can't prove it because Emma burnt the copy. :o

Bronco73idi
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Re: Polygamous Prophet Arrested

Post by Bronco73idi »

Shawn Henry wrote: December 6th, 2022, 12:24 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: December 6th, 2022, 12:07 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: December 6th, 2022, 11:41 am
Bronco73idi wrote: December 5th, 2022, 4:49 pm Peter
Where are you referencing a connection to Peter with polygamy?
There is "no current copy" of Celsus thesis The True Word.
We should probably be sticking to scripture, don't you think. Figures you'd resort to something unsubstantiated that only you have heard of. By the way, my Uncle Mike had a revelation that you are wrong, only I can't prove it because Emma burnt the copy. :o
I can stick to scripture but you guys hate it 😂

When the first temple was destroyed, it would have been a perfect time to end what you people report as an abomination! Why didn’t the lord have Ezekiel do that? Why did Paul first restrict it and then ban it?

What did Paul and Lehi know about the church they were setting up for their brethren and children? They both knew that it wouldn’t last through the apostasy.

Have you asked the lord these questions as a prophet for yourself and family.

Are we not Gods? John 10:34

Bronco73idi
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Re: Polygamous Prophet Arrested

Post by Bronco73idi »

Shawn Henry wrote: December 6th, 2022, 12:24 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: December 6th, 2022, 12:07 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: December 6th, 2022, 11:41 am
Bronco73idi wrote: December 5th, 2022, 4:49 pm Peter
Where are you referencing a connection to Peter with polygamy?
There is "no current copy" of Celsus thesis The True Word.
We should probably be sticking to scripture, don't you think. Figures you'd resort to something unsubstantiated that only you have heard of. By the way, my Uncle Mike had a revelation that you are wrong, only I can't prove it because Emma burnt the copy. :o
We can have a real discussion, I’m saying one that is more then sheep mentality type of discussion.

From Abraham to Paul, Polygamy was of their religion.

Let’s look at words/actions = sin

Sex with wife when bleeding = abomination

Men having sex with men (eunuchs) = abomination

Women having sex with women…… nothing

Married Man having sex with non married women = concubines = abomination

Married woman having sex with another man = adultery

Married man putting away his wife = adultery
Why is this worse then concubines?

It’s almost like marriage is like our savior’s relationship with us. He is the bridegroom and we are the bride. We need a bride to become like him.

Hmmmm, is this act of marriage deeper then what we see?

Go ahead and fix my errors, I’m here to learn also.

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Luke
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Re: Polygamous Prophet Arrested

Post by Luke »

darknesstolight wrote: December 6th, 2022, 8:19 am Polygamy is natural man. In only the last 1000 years have humans in general practiced monogamy as a social norm.

The ANIMAL in us wants to spread are genes all over the place and to screw and to have all sorts of sexual partners. That's the natural man.

Monogamy is in direct opposition to the ANIMAL MAN the natural man has a hard time with monogamy and hence the promiscuity and large rates of adultery in monogamous relationships.

It's hard to obey God's commandment to have but one wife only and no concubines at all. Natural man hates it.

...
You're absolutely delusional.

Monogamy is not harder than polygamy.

If you really think this then there's not much else to say--you're simply delusional.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Polygamous Prophet Arrested

Post by Shawn Henry »

Bronco73idi wrote: December 6th, 2022, 12:41 pm what you people report as an abomination
By "you people", you mean Jesus Christ. He called it an abomination. His words, not ours.

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Luke
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Re: Polygamous Prophet Arrested

Post by Luke »

Shawn Henry wrote: December 6th, 2022, 1:58 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: December 6th, 2022, 12:41 pm what you people report as an abomination
By "you people", you mean Jesus Christ. He called it an abomination. His words, not ours.
Then why did that same Jesus Christ give wives to David?

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Polygamous Prophet Arrested

Post by Shawn Henry »

Luke wrote: December 6th, 2022, 2:02 pm Then why did that same Jesus Christ give wives to David?
Why does he give crack to drug addict? He gives us according to the desires of our heart. He gives everything and takes ownership of everything. It all comes from God. Just because he gives us the agency to sin, doesn't mean that he condones sinning.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

It is also important to note that God did not initiate polygamy here. These women were already in a previous polygamous marriage, and it was already the law of the land, just like slavery.

Bronco73idi
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Re: Polygamous Prophet Arrested

Post by Bronco73idi »

Shawn Henry wrote: December 6th, 2022, 1:58 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: December 6th, 2022, 12:41 pm what you people report as an abomination
By "you people", you mean Jesus Christ. He called it an abomination. His words, not ours.
He called concubines an abomination. His words not mine

Bronco73idi
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Re: Polygamous Prophet Arrested

Post by Bronco73idi »

Luke wrote: December 6th, 2022, 2:02 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: December 6th, 2022, 1:58 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: December 6th, 2022, 12:41 pm what you people report as an abomination
By "you people", you mean Jesus Christ. He called it an abomination. His words, not ours.
Then why did that same Jesus Christ give wives to David?
You do realize that Isaiah 4:1 is reprinted in 2 Nephi 14:1? That hasn’t happened…..

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Luke
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Re: Polygamous Prophet Arrested

Post by Luke »

Shawn Henry wrote: December 6th, 2022, 2:13 pm
Luke wrote: December 6th, 2022, 2:02 pm Then why did that same Jesus Christ give wives to David?
Why does he give crack to drug addict?
He doesn't.

He stands back and allows the drug addict to procure crack via a drug dealer, but He has no hand in the matter. Whereas in the case of David, He was the driving force behind actually giving Him the wives. It was active, not passive.

Further evidenced by the fact that He said He would have given David even more wives.

Why would Jesus say that He would give David more and more wives if He wasn't a supporter of polygamy?

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Polygamous Prophet Arrested

Post by Shawn Henry »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: December 6th, 2022, 12:05 pm Oh, and for an example, Nephi murdering Laban.
Study section 98 and ask yourself why the Lord singles out Nephi when talking about when you are justified and tell if Nephi didn't already have a standing commandment that he violated.

Here, I made a whole thread just for you. viewtopic.php?t=68798

I hope you feel special. :D

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