Take up your cross

[Pazooka]

I found this insight into the phrase “take up your cross” more helpful than the common interpretation. I guess, when Ezekiel 9:4 tells of the angel going through the city and marking the foreheads of the people who were to be spared destruction it literally says “put a tau/tav on the foreheads of the men sighing and groaning over all the abominations committed there.” This is the same mark (a cross) that was put on the forehead of the high priest as a symbol for “the Name” of God. The Testament of Levi describes the preparation of the high priest: washing, anointing, clothing and feeding with the holy bread and wine...and it looks a lot like baptism, receiving the Holy Ghost, the Sacrament, etc.

When Jesus told his followers to take up their cross (Mark 8.34 and parallels), a saying which we usually understand as a warning to expect suffering, I suspect it was originally an invitation to sharing the high priesthood by wearing the cross.

If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me... For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of man also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. (Mark 8.34, 38).


Jesus linked this saying about taking up the cross to the Son of Man coming in glory with his angels - a reference to the host in the Revelation 14 with the Name on their foreheads, the redeemed who had followed the Lamb. ‘Take up your cross and follow me’ was an invitation to become one of the restored high priests. The third commandment was originally directed to the high priests, because it warned them not to wear the Name of the LORD without due reverence. ‘You shall not wear the Name of the LORD your God lightly, for the LORD will not keep him free from harm if he wears his Name lightly.’ Wearing the Name lightly would give them no protection. (Exod.20.7).

~Margaret Barker, Papers, Entering the Temple, pgs 11-12

So interesting that the letter associated with the cross also meant “mark” and “seal.”

[Chris01]

Thank you for your insights! I personally loved Elder Holland's most recent talk at conference as well. It touched me so personally.

[NowWhat]

I didn't love it. I just bought a cross.

[Pazooka]

I didn't love it. I just bought a cross.

Let me see if I’m understanding this:

You didn’t love Elder Holland’s talk and it made you go out and buy a cross? Haha, really?

[NowWhat]

So, Pazooka, it's not that the talk "made" me "go out and buy a cross." Let me tell you my story: I was a TBM until 2020. The Church's handling of the whole Covid thing was shattering. Like many others, I was stunned to see what was happening at headquarters--the masks, the vax, the refusal to sign waivers for mandates, the coziness with the UN, Eubank, LGBTQ, $153 K "stipend" for many in leadership, not just the 15, disrespect for former prophets who tried to warn about Communism, the God-like treatment of the Q15. We have biblical prophesy that correlates with what's happening, so we're looking at a destroyed economy, a famine, society falling apart, civilization in entropy, the dissolution of my country (US), a possible WWIII, etc.

And Holland, who was always my favorite, thinks THIS is the time to tell us not to wear crosses? That's the most important message for us in these latter days? I brought this up once before: I was raised Protestant, and always wore crosses. I let them go when I joined the Church, and shrugged them off for decades. But now I don't believe in the leadership anymore, which undermines my entire foundation, except for the obvious: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. I'm obviously a little rebellious by nature, as witnessed by the fact that I joined the Church when almost no one I knew even went to church--any church. Somewhere along the line, I pulled a #walkaway, and left the Dem party, and lost most of my friends and family. So here I am, torn between going and staying, feeling that they have stolen my church. And I live in Utah, which means almost the whole neighborhood is in the Church. So, yes, I wanted a cross, something I treasured in my childhood, because I have to lean on my Savior more than ever, and it gives me comfort.

[Pazooka]

So, Pazooka, long on laughter and short on kindness. It's not that the talk "made" me "go out and buy a cross." Let me tell you my story: I was a TBM until 2020. The Church's handling of the whole Covid thing was shattering. Like many others, I was stunned to see what was happening at headquarters--the masks, the vax, the refusal to sign waivers for mandates, the coziness with the UN, Eubank, LGBTQ, $153 K "stipend" for many in leadership, not just the 15, disrespect for former prophets who tried to warn about Communism, the God-like treatment of the Q15. We have biblical prophesy that correlates with what's happening, so we're looking at a destroyed economy, a famine, society falling apart, civilization in entropy, the dissolution of my country (US), a possible WWIII, etc.

And Holland, who was always my favorite, thinks THIS is the time to tell us not to wear crosses? That's the most important message for us in these latter days? I brought this up once before: I was raised Protestant, and always wore crosses. I let them go when I joined the Church, and shrugged them off for decades. But now I don't believe in the leadership anymore, which undermines my entire foundation, except for the obvious: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. I'm obviously a little rebellious by nature, as witnessed by the fact that I joined the Church when almost no one I knew even went to church--any church. Somewhere along the line, I pulled a #walkaway, and left the Dem party, and lost most of my friends and family. So here I am, torn between going and staying, feeling that they have stolen my church. And I live in Utah, which means almost the whole neighborhood is in the Church. So, yes, I wanted a cross, something I treasured in my childhood, because I have to lean on my Savior more than ever, and it gives me comfort.

I went out and bought a cross, too. But not because of Elder Holland’s talk. I asked because I really couldn’t remember what he had said and what it had to do with crosses. But it must have impacted you enough to want to buy one, and so I wanted to know how.

Yeah, so the cross goes way back to the most ancient faith. I’m starting to see that now. But all I remember of growing up in the Church, by way of explanation for why we don’t, is the question, “if Jesus had been killed with a gun, would you wear a gun around your neck?”

[nightlight]

I found this insight into the phrase “take up your cross” more helpful than the common interpretation. I guess, when Ezekiel 9:4 tells of the angel going through the city and marking the foreheads of the people who were to be spared destruction it literally says “put a tau/tav on the foreheads of the men sighing and groaning over all the abominations committed there.” This is the same mark (a cross) that was put on the forehead of the high priest as a symbol for “the Name” of God. The Testament of Levi describes the preparation of the high priest: washing, anointing, clothing and feeding with the holy bread and wine...and it looks a lot like baptism, receiving the Holy Ghost, the Sacrament, etc.

When Jesus told his followers to take up their cross (Mark 8.34 and parallels), a saying which we usually understand as a warning to expect suffering, I suspect it was originally an invitation to sharing the high priesthood by wearing the cross.

If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me... For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of man also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. (Mark 8.34, 38).


Jesus linked this saying about taking up the cross to the Son of Man coming in glory with his angels - a reference to the host in the Revelation 14 with the Name on their foreheads, the redeemed who had followed the Lamb. ‘Take up your cross and follow me’ was an invitation to become one of the restored high priests. The third commandment was originally directed to the high priests, because it warned them not to wear the Name of the LORD without due reverence. ‘You shall not wear the Name of the LORD your God lightly, for the LORD will not keep him free from harm if he wears his Name lightly.’ Wearing the Name lightly would give them no protection. (Exod.20.7).

~Margaret Barker, Papers, Entering the Temple, pgs 11-12

So interesting that the letter associated with the cross also meant “mark” and “seal.”

What you're saying is redundant.

The Testament of Levi is pointing to Jesus Christ of Nazareth

Jesus is the culmination of all the rites of ancient religion.

Him actually hanging from the staff is the climax of all symbolism

Saying the cross goes beyond Jesus is just a handicap in understanding

You seem to be on some sort of "beyond Jesus" phase in your search for truth.

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
------

15 Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are.
---------


I am the way, the truth, and the life:
--------

[cab]

So, Pazooka, long on laughter and short on kindness. It's not that the talk "made" me "go out and buy a cross." Let me tell you my story: I was a TBM until 2020. The Church's handling of the whole Covid thing was shattering. Like many others, I was stunned to see what was happening at headquarters--the masks, the vax, the refusal to sign waivers for mandates, the coziness with the UN, Eubank, LGBTQ, $153 K "stipend" for many in leadership, not just the 15, disrespect for former prophets who tried to warn about Communism, the God-like treatment of the Q15. We have biblical prophesy that correlates with what's happening, so we're looking at a destroyed economy, a famine, society falling apart, civilization in entropy, the dissolution of my country (US), a possible WWIII, etc.

And Holland, who was always my favorite, thinks THIS is the time to tell us not to wear crosses? That's the most important message for us in these latter days? I brought this up once before: I was raised Protestant, and always wore crosses. I let them go when I joined the Church, and shrugged them off for decades. But now I don't believe in the leadership anymore, which undermines my entire foundation, except for the obvious: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. I'm obviously a little rebellious by nature, as witnessed by the fact that I joined the Church when almost no one I knew even went to church--any church. Somewhere along the line, I pulled a #walkaway, and left the Dem party, and lost most of my friends and family. So here I am, torn between going and staying, feeling that they have stolen my church. And I live in Utah, which means almost the whole neighborhood is in the Church. So, yes, I wanted a cross, something I treasured in my childhood, because I have to lean on my Savior more than ever, and it gives me comfort.

For us to claim some sort of moral superiority for not wearing the universal token of Jesus while at the same time shaming those for not wearing their sacred underwear is one of many idiotic things we do…

[Pazooka]

I found this insight into the phrase “take up your cross” more helpful than the common interpretation. I guess, when Ezekiel 9:4 tells of the angel going through the city and marking the foreheads of the people who were to be spared destruction it literally says “put a tau/tav on the foreheads of the men sighing and groaning over all the abominations committed there.” This is the same mark (a cross) that was put on the forehead of the high priest as a symbol for “the Name” of God. The Testament of Levi describes the preparation of the high priest: washing, anointing, clothing and feeding with the holy bread and wine...and it looks a lot like baptism, receiving the Holy Ghost, the Sacrament, etc.

When Jesus told his followers to take up their cross (Mark 8.34 and parallels), a saying which we usually understand as a warning to expect suffering, I suspect it was originally an invitation to sharing the high priesthood by wearing the cross.

If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me... For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of man also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. (Mark 8.34, 38).


Jesus linked this saying about taking up the cross to the Son of Man coming in glory with his angels - a reference to the host in the Revelation 14 with the Name on their foreheads, the redeemed who had followed the Lamb. ‘Take up your cross and follow me’ was an invitation to become one of the restored high priests. The third commandment was originally directed to the high priests, because it warned them not to wear the Name of the LORD without due reverence. ‘You shall not wear the Name of the LORD your God lightly, for the LORD will not keep him free from harm if he wears his Name lightly.’ Wearing the Name lightly would give them no protection. (Exod.20.7).

~Margaret Barker, Papers, Entering the Temple, pgs 11-12

So interesting that the letter associated with the cross also meant “mark” and “seal.”

What you're saying is redundant.

The Testament of Levi is pointing to Jesus Christ of Nazareth

Jesus is the culmination of all the rites of ancient religion.

Him actually hanging from the staff is the climax of all symbolism

Saying the cross goes beyond Jesus is just a handicap in understanding

You seem to be on some sort of "beyond Jesus" phase in your search for truth.

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
------

15 Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are.
---------


I am the way, the truth, and the life:
--------

Jesus said he was “the way”....to what? He is “the truth”...about what, exactly?

Did He not say in that same breath, “no man cometh unto the Father, but by me”?

He is the way to the Father.

There is something “beyond Jesus”; something to which He testifies and to which He gives us access. He renews the creation that someone else made.

D&C 76:76 These (bodies terrestrial) are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father perhaps testifies to the fact that there is something “beyond Jesus” - so, yes, I will pursue it.

[NowWhat]

My then teens, plus others, were saying something snarkily similar to what you heard as a child, Pazooka: "If they killed Him with an electric chair, would you wear THAT around your neck?! Har har!" Our normally even-tempered Young Men's counselor lost it with them: "Don't you dare ridicule something that represents the faith of others in our Lord, Jesus Christ."

[JandD6572]

So, Pazooka, long on laughter and short on kindness. It's not that the talk "made" me "go out and buy a cross." Let me tell you my story: I was a TBM until 2020. The Church's handling of the whole Covid thing was shattering. Like many others, I was stunned to see what was happening at headquarters--the masks, the vax, the refusal to sign waivers for mandates, the coziness with the UN, Eubank, LGBTQ, $153 K "stipend" for many in leadership, not just the 15, disrespect for former prophets who tried to warn about Communism, the God-like treatment of the Q15. We have biblical prophesy that correlates with what's happening, so we're looking at a destroyed economy, a famine, society falling apart, civilization in entropy, the dissolution of my country (US), a possible WWIII, etc.

And Holland, who was always my favorite, thinks THIS is the time to tell us not to wear crosses? That's the most important message for us in these latter days? I brought this up once before: I was raised Protestant, and always wore crosses. I let them go when I joined the Church, and shrugged them off for decades. But now I don't believe in the leadership anymore, which undermines my entire foundation, except for the obvious: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. I'm obviously a little rebellious by nature, as witnessed by the fact that I joined the Church when almost no one I knew even went to church--any church. Somewhere along the line, I pulled a #walkaway, and left the Dem party, and lost most of my friends and family. So here I am, torn between going and staying, feeling that they have stolen my church. And I live in Utah, which means almost the whole neighborhood is in the Church. So, yes, I wanted a cross, something I treasured in my childhood, because I have to lean on my Savior more than ever, and it gives me comfort.

I share your same views, Covid really opened my eyes, though I had suspicion of many other things long before Covid. But Covid was the real eye opener, along with this other nonsense of supporting gay marriage etc. I have left the church about a year ago, and will not look back. I have been so happy, so relaxed, with little to no anxiety. I have never felt this much peace as I do since leaving. I have worn a cross for years, and paid no mind to what these so called leaders ramble on about. I wear a cowboy hat, with a small wooden cross sewn onto the brim. Enjoy your cross, enjoy your freedom from those who say you must follow their lead and do what they say you must do.

[nightlight]

I found this insight into the phrase “take up your cross” more helpful than the common interpretation. I guess, when Ezekiel 9:4 tells of the angel going through the city and marking the foreheads of the people who were to be spared destruction it literally says “put a tau/tav on the foreheads of the men sighing and groaning over all the abominations committed there.” This is the same mark (a cross) that was put on the forehead of the high priest as a symbol for “the Name” of God. The Testament of Levi describes the preparation of the high priest: washing, anointing, clothing and feeding with the holy bread and wine...and it looks a lot like baptism, receiving the Holy Ghost, the Sacrament, etc.

When Jesus told his followers to take up their cross (Mark 8.34 and parallels), a saying which we usually understand as a warning to expect suffering, I suspect it was originally an invitation to sharing the high priesthood by wearing the cross.

If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me... For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of man also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. (Mark 8.34, 38).


Jesus linked this saying about taking up the cross to the Son of Man coming in glory with his angels - a reference to the host in the Revelation 14 with the Name on their foreheads, the redeemed who had followed the Lamb. ‘Take up your cross and follow me’ was an invitation to become one of the restored high priests. The third commandment was originally directed to the high priests, because it warned them not to wear the Name of the LORD without due reverence. ‘You shall not wear the Name of the LORD your God lightly, for the LORD will not keep him free from harm if he wears his Name lightly.’ Wearing the Name lightly would give them no protection. (Exod.20.7).

~Margaret Barker, Papers, Entering the Temple, pgs 11-12

So interesting that the letter associated with the cross also meant “mark” and “seal.”

What you're saying is redundant.

The Testament of Levi is pointing to Jesus Christ of Nazareth

Jesus is the culmination of all the rites of ancient religion.

Him actually hanging from the staff is the climax of all symbolism

Saying the cross goes beyond Jesus is just a handicap in understanding

You seem to be on some sort of "beyond Jesus" phase in your search for truth.

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
------

15 Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are.
---------


I am the way, the truth, and the life:
--------

Jesus said he was “the way”....to what? He is “the truth”...about what, exactly?

Did He not say in that same breath, “no man cometh unto the Father, but by me”?

He is the way to the Father.

There is something “beyond Jesus”; something to which He testifies and to which He gives us access. He renews the creation that someone else made.

D&C 76:76 These (bodies terrestrial) are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father perhaps testifies to the fact that there is something “beyond Jesus” - so, yes, I will pursue it.

Wait??? You don't believe Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the creator of the earth and sky... and all things in them?

Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament. Brighamites denying this does not change reality

Mosiah 3:5–10, given about 124 B.C.:

For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.

And he shall cast out devils, or the evil spirits which dwell in the hearts of the children of men.

And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people.

And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.

And lo, he cometh unto his own, that salvation might come unto the children of men even through faith on his name; and even after all this they shall consider him a man, and say that he hath a devil, and shall scourge him, and shall crucify him.

And he shall rise the third day from the dead; and behold, he standeth to judge the world; and behold, all these things are done that a righteous judgment might come upon the children of men.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

Yea, even the very God of Israel do men trample under their feet; I say, trample under their feet but I would speak in other words-they set him at naught, and hearken not to the voice of his counsels.

And behold he cometh, according to the words of the angel, in six hundred years from the time my father left Jerusalem.

And the world, because of their iniquity, shall judge him to be a thing of naught; wherefore they scourge him, and he suffereth it; and they smite him, and he suffereth it. Yea, they spit upon him, and he suffereth it, because of his loving kindness and his long-suffering towards the children of men.

And the God of our fathers, who were led out of Egypt, out of bondage, and also were preserved in the wilderness by him, yea, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, yieldeth himself, according to the words of the angel, as a man, into the hands of wicked men, to be lifted up, according to the words of Zenock, and to be crucified, according to the words of Neum, and to be buried in a sepulchre, according to the words of Zenos, which he spake concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the house of Israel.
+++++++++++++

This is what I've a hard time with Mormons claiming

That they claim to pursue beyond Jesus Christ.

Do the very trees obey their command?
Do they cause the blind to see?
Have they talked to angels?
Have they seen the face of Christ?
Etc

I see all these Mormons declare that they are beyond salvation and in the steps of exaltation.... But they don't even understand the reality of the being who is Christ

If Jesus Christ is one with the Father , there is nothing beyond Him.

If you've seen the face of Christ....you've seen the Father.

Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

[Pazooka]

I had to remind myself what Holland said about crosses. Technically, I think he might be right about the taking upon us the cross not having to do with “pendants or jewelry.”

Lastly, we remind ourselves that President Gordon B. Hinckley once taught, "The lives of our people must [be] ... the symbol of our [faith]."[24] These considerations—especially the latter—bring me to what may be the most important of all scriptural references to the cross. It has nothing to do with pendants or jewelry, with steeples or signposts. It has to do, rather, with the rock-ribbed integrity and stiff moral backbone that Christians should bring to the call Jesus has given to every one of his disciples. In every land and age, He has said to us all, "If any man [or woman] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."[25] This speaks of the crosses we bear rather than the ones we wear. To be a follower of Jesus Christ, one must sometimes carry a burden—your own or someone else's—and go where sacrifice is required and suffering is inevitable. A true Christian cannot follow the Master only in those matters with which he or she agrees. No. We follow Him everywhere, including, if necessary, into arenas filled with tears and trouble, where sometimes we may stand very much alone

But, seriously, how can the underlined be true? The bearing of the Name should make the person ONE with the Lord. I tend to think this is a form of gaslighting.

I was introduced to the idea that the Christians were the new high priests of the ancient Israelite temple. That the cross was the mark/seal put upon his forehead and that it also represents the fulfilling of the promises made by the Father through the Son.

[Lizzy60]

I found this insight into the phrase “take up your cross” more helpful than the common interpretation. I guess, when Ezekiel 9:4 tells of the angel going through the city and marking the foreheads of the people who were to be spared destruction it literally says “put a tau/tav on the foreheads of the men sighing and groaning over all the abominations committed there.” This is the same mark (a cross) that was put on the forehead of the high priest as a symbol for “the Name” of God. The Testament of Levi describes the preparation of the high priest: washing, anointing, clothing and feeding with the holy bread and wine...and it looks a lot like baptism, receiving the Holy Ghost, the Sacrament, etc.

When Jesus told his followers to take up their cross (Mark 8.34 and parallels), a saying which we usually understand as a warning to expect suffering, I suspect it was originally an invitation to sharing the high priesthood by wearing the cross.

If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me... For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of man also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. (Mark 8.34, 38).


Jesus linked this saying about taking up the cross to the Son of Man coming in glory with his angels - a reference to the host in the Revelation 14 with the Name on their foreheads, the redeemed who had followed the Lamb. ‘Take up your cross and follow me’ was an invitation to become one of the restored high priests. The third commandment was originally directed to the high priests, because it warned them not to wear the Name of the LORD without due reverence. ‘You shall not wear the Name of the LORD your God lightly, for the LORD will not keep him free from harm if he wears his Name lightly.’ Wearing the Name lightly would give them no protection. (Exod.20.7).

~Margaret Barker, Papers, Entering the Temple, pgs 11-12

So interesting that the letter associated with the cross also meant “mark” and “seal.”

What you're saying is redundant.

The Testament of Levi is pointing to Jesus Christ of Nazareth

Jesus is the culmination of all the rites of ancient religion.

Him actually hanging from the staff is the climax of all symbolism

Saying the cross goes beyond Jesus is just a handicap in understanding

You seem to be on some sort of "beyond Jesus" phase in your search for truth.

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
------

15 Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are.
---------


I am the way, the truth, and the life:
--------

Jesus said he was “the way”....to what? He is “the truth”...about what, exactly?

Did He not say in that same breath, “no man cometh unto the Father, but by me”?

He is the way to the Father.

There is something “beyond Jesus”; something to which He testifies and to which He gives us access. He renews the creation that someone else made.

D&C 76:76 These (bodies terrestrial) are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father perhaps testifies to the fact that there is something “beyond Jesus” - so, yes, I will pursue it.

It’s about roles. Father is a role, and Son is a role. Christ had ascended to the role of Father when HIS father gave Him this eternity to create. In order to atone, the Father of this Heaven and Earth was required to condescend to the role of the Son and come to Earth in that role. That is why He references His father while here in this mortality (although He was still divine). Now that He has ascended He is again in the role of our Father (sons and daughters of Christ). The something “beyond Jesus” is the Eternal Father, the Eternal God, the creator of heaven and earth and all things therein.

We are born as children. At some point we become the parent, the father or mother. However, we sometimes revert to our role as children in family situations. At age 60, my father will still introduce me as his daughter, even though I am a mother and grandmother also. Roles. Titles. Names.

[Pazooka]

I found this insight into the phrase “take up your cross” more helpful than the common interpretation. I guess, when Ezekiel 9:4 tells of the angel going through the city and marking the foreheads of the people who were to be spared destruction it literally says “put a tau/tav on the foreheads of the men sighing and groaning over all the abominations committed there.” This is the same mark (a cross) that was put on the forehead of the high priest as a symbol for “the Name” of God. The Testament of Levi describes the preparation of the high priest: washing, anointing, clothing and feeding with the holy bread and wine...and it looks a lot like baptism, receiving the Holy Ghost, the Sacrament, etc.



So interesting that the letter associated with the cross also meant “mark” and “seal.”

What you're saying is redundant.

The Testament of Levi is pointing to Jesus Christ of Nazareth

Jesus is the culmination of all the rites of ancient religion.

Him actually hanging from the staff is the climax of all symbolism

Saying the cross goes beyond Jesus is just a handicap in understanding

You seem to be on some sort of "beyond Jesus" phase in your search for truth.

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
------

15 Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are.
---------


I am the way, the truth, and the life:
--------

Jesus said he was “the way”....to what? He is “the truth”...about what, exactly?

Did He not say in that same breath, “no man cometh unto the Father, but by me”?

He is the way to the Father.

There is something “beyond Jesus”; something to which He testifies and to which He gives us access. He renews the creation that someone else made.

D&C 76:76 These (bodies terrestrial) are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father perhaps testifies to the fact that there is something “beyond Jesus” - so, yes, I will pursue it.

It’s about roles. Father is a role, and Son is a role. Christ had ascended to the role of Father when HIS father gave Him this eternity to create. In order to atone, the Father of this Heaven and Earth was required to condescend to the role of the Son and come to Earth in that role. That is why He references His father while here in this mortality (although He was still divine). Now that He has ascended He is again in the role of our Father (sons and daughters of Christ). The something “beyond Jesus” is the Eternal Father, the Eternal God, the creator of heaven and earth and all things therein.

We are born as children. At some point we become the parent, the father or mother. However, we sometimes revert to our role as children in family situations. At age 60, my father will still introduce me as his daughter, even though I am a mother and grandmother also. Roles. Titles. Names.

You lost me. When Jesus said “no man cometh unto the Father, except by me” what are you taking that to mean?

[Pazooka]

I found this insight into the phrase “take up your cross” more helpful than the common interpretation. I guess, when Ezekiel 9:4 tells of the angel going through the city and marking the foreheads of the people who were to be spared destruction it literally says “put a tau/tav on the foreheads of the men sighing and groaning over all the abominations committed there.” This is the same mark (a cross) that was put on the forehead of the high priest as a symbol for “the Name” of God. The Testament of Levi describes the preparation of the high priest: washing, anointing, clothing and feeding with the holy bread and wine...and it looks a lot like baptism, receiving the Holy Ghost, the Sacrament, etc.



So interesting that the letter associated with the cross also meant “mark” and “seal.”

What you're saying is redundant.

The Testament of Levi is pointing to Jesus Christ of Nazareth

Jesus is the culmination of all the rites of ancient religion.

Him actually hanging from the staff is the climax of all symbolism

Saying the cross goes beyond Jesus is just a handicap in understanding

You seem to be on some sort of "beyond Jesus" phase in your search for truth.

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
------

15 Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are.
---------


I am the way, the truth, and the life:
--------

Jesus said he was “the way”....to what? He is “the truth”...about what, exactly?

Did He not say in that same breath, “no man cometh unto the Father, but by me”?

He is the way to the Father.

There is something “beyond Jesus”; something to which He testifies and to which He gives us access. He renews the creation that someone else made.

D&C 76:76 These (bodies terrestrial) are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father perhaps testifies to the fact that there is something “beyond Jesus” - so, yes, I will pursue it.

Wait??? You don't believe Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the creator of the earth and sky... and all things in them?

Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament. Brighamites denying this does not change reality

Mosiah 3:5–10, given about 124 B.C.:

For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.

And he shall cast out devils, or the evil spirits which dwell in the hearts of the children of men.

And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people.

And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.

And lo, he cometh unto his own, that salvation might come unto the children of men even through faith on his name; and even after all this they shall consider him a man, and say that he hath a devil, and shall scourge him, and shall crucify him.

And he shall rise the third day from the dead; and behold, he standeth to judge the world; and behold, all these things are done that a righteous judgment might come upon the children of men.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

Yea, even the very God of Israel do men trample under their feet; I say, trample under their feet but I would speak in other words-they set him at naught, and hearken not to the voice of his counsels.

And behold he cometh, according to the words of the angel, in six hundred years from the time my father left Jerusalem.

And the world, because of their iniquity, shall judge him to be a thing of naught; wherefore they scourge him, and he suffereth it; and they smite him, and he suffereth it. Yea, they spit upon him, and he suffereth it, because of his loving kindness and his long-suffering towards the children of men.

And the God of our fathers, who were led out of Egypt, out of bondage, and also were preserved in the wilderness by him, yea, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, yieldeth himself, according to the words of the angel, as a man, into the hands of wicked men, to be lifted up, according to the words of Zenock, and to be crucified, according to the words of Neum, and to be buried in a sepulchre, according to the words of Zenos, which he spake concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the house of Israel.
+++++++++++++

This is what I've a hard time with Mormons claiming

That they claim to pursue beyond Jesus Christ.

Do the very trees obey their command?
Do they cause the blind to see?
Have they talked to angels?
Have they seen the face of Christ?
Etc

I see all these Mormons declare that they are beyond salvation and in the steps of exaltation.... But they don't even understand the reality of the being who is Christ

If Jesus Christ is one with the Father , there is nothing beyond Him.

If you've seen the face of Christ....you've seen the Father.

Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

How are we, then, joint-heirs with Christ? What do we inherit?

And why do we pray to the Father, having been given access to Him through Jesus? Why not just pray to Jesus?

[Lizzy60]

What you're saying is redundant.

The Testament of Levi is pointing to Jesus Christ of Nazareth

Jesus is the culmination of all the rites of ancient religion.

Him actually hanging from the staff is the climax of all symbolism

Saying the cross goes beyond Jesus is just a handicap in understanding

You seem to be on some sort of "beyond Jesus" phase in your search for truth.

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
------

15 Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are.
---------


I am the way, the truth, and the life:
--------

Jesus said he was “the way”....to what? He is “the truth”...about what, exactly?

Did He not say in that same breath, “no man cometh unto the Father, but by me”?

He is the way to the Father.

There is something “beyond Jesus”; something to which He testifies and to which He gives us access. He renews the creation that someone else made.

D&C 76:76 These (bodies terrestrial) are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father perhaps testifies to the fact that there is something “beyond Jesus” - so, yes, I will pursue it.

Wait??? You don't believe Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the creator of the earth and sky... and all things in them?

Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament. Brighamites denying this does not change reality

Mosiah 3:5–10, given about 124 B.C.:

For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.

And he shall cast out devils, or the evil spirits which dwell in the hearts of the children of men.

And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people.

And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.

And lo, he cometh unto his own, that salvation might come unto the children of men even through faith on his name; and even after all this they shall consider him a man, and say that he hath a devil, and shall scourge him, and shall crucify him.

And he shall rise the third day from the dead; and behold, he standeth to judge the world; and behold, all these things are done that a righteous judgment might come upon the children of men.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

Yea, even the very God of Israel do men trample under their feet; I say, trample under their feet but I would speak in other words-they set him at naught, and hearken not to the voice of his counsels.

And behold he cometh, according to the words of the angel, in six hundred years from the time my father left Jerusalem.

And the world, because of their iniquity, shall judge him to be a thing of naught; wherefore they scourge him, and he suffereth it; and they smite him, and he suffereth it. Yea, they spit upon him, and he suffereth it, because of his loving kindness and his long-suffering towards the children of men.

And the God of our fathers, who were led out of Egypt, out of bondage, and also were preserved in the wilderness by him, yea, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, yieldeth himself, according to the words of the angel, as a man, into the hands of wicked men, to be lifted up, according to the words of Zenock, and to be crucified, according to the words of Neum, and to be buried in a sepulchre, according to the words of Zenos, which he spake concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the house of Israel.
+++++++++++++

This is what I've a hard time with Mormons claiming

That they claim to pursue beyond Jesus Christ.

Do the very trees obey their command?
Do they cause the blind to see?
Have they talked to angels?
Have they seen the face of Christ?
Etc

I see all these Mormons declare that they are beyond salvation and in the steps of exaltation.... But they don't even understand the reality of the being who is Christ

If Jesus Christ is one with the Father , there is nothing beyond Him.

If you've seen the face of Christ....you've seen the Father.

Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

How are we, then, joint-heirs with Christ? What do we inherit?

And why do we pray to the Father, having been given access to Him through Jesus? Why not just pray to Jesus?

Christ is our Father. Quotes from numerous places in the Book of Mormon —- Christ the Eternal Father, sons and daughters of Christ.....Mosiah 15. Read Mosiah 15 several times please.

Without the Atonement (Christ in his role of Son) this entire universe and eternity would completely disintegrate. It would fall from existence. The Son (Atonement) brings us to the Father. Yes, as one of His daughters I pray to my Father, Jesus Christ. I was given to Him (one of His sheep) by HIS father, at the beginning of this eternity.

[Pazooka]

Jesus said he was “the way”....to what? He is “the truth”...about what, exactly?

Did He not say in that same breath, “no man cometh unto the Father, but by me”?

He is the way to the Father.

There is something “beyond Jesus”; something to which He testifies and to which He gives us access. He renews the creation that someone else made.

D&C 76:76 These (bodies terrestrial) are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father perhaps testifies to the fact that there is something “beyond Jesus” - so, yes, I will pursue it.

Wait??? You don't believe Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the creator of the earth and sky... and all things in them?

Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament. Brighamites denying this does not change reality

Mosiah 3:5–10, given about 124 B.C.:

For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.

And he shall cast out devils, or the evil spirits which dwell in the hearts of the children of men.

And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people.

And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.

And lo, he cometh unto his own, that salvation might come unto the children of men even through faith on his name; and even after all this they shall consider him a man, and say that he hath a devil, and shall scourge him, and shall crucify him.

And he shall rise the third day from the dead; and behold, he standeth to judge the world; and behold, all these things are done that a righteous judgment might come upon the children of men.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

Yea, even the very God of Israel do men trample under their feet; I say, trample under their feet but I would speak in other words-they set him at naught, and hearken not to the voice of his counsels.

And behold he cometh, according to the words of the angel, in six hundred years from the time my father left Jerusalem.

And the world, because of their iniquity, shall judge him to be a thing of naught; wherefore they scourge him, and he suffereth it; and they smite him, and he suffereth it. Yea, they spit upon him, and he suffereth it, because of his loving kindness and his long-suffering towards the children of men.

And the God of our fathers, who were led out of Egypt, out of bondage, and also were preserved in the wilderness by him, yea, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, yieldeth himself, according to the words of the angel, as a man, into the hands of wicked men, to be lifted up, according to the words of Zenock, and to be crucified, according to the words of Neum, and to be buried in a sepulchre, according to the words of Zenos, which he spake concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the house of Israel.
+++++++++++++

This is what I've a hard time with Mormons claiming

That they claim to pursue beyond Jesus Christ.

Do the very trees obey their command?
Do they cause the blind to see?
Have they talked to angels?
Have they seen the face of Christ?
Etc

I see all these Mormons declare that they are beyond salvation and in the steps of exaltation.... But they don't even understand the reality of the being who is Christ

If Jesus Christ is one with the Father , there is nothing beyond Him.

If you've seen the face of Christ....you've seen the Father.

Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

How are we, then, joint-heirs with Christ? What do we inherit?

And why do we pray to the Father, having been given access to Him through Jesus? Why not just pray to Jesus?

Christ is our Father. Quotes from numerous places in the Book of Mormon —- Christ the Eternal Father, sons and daughters of Christ.....Mosiah 15. Read Mosiah 15 several times please.

Without the Atonement (Christ in his role of Son) this entire universe and eternity would completely disintegrate. It would fall from existence. The Son (Atonement) brings us to the Father. Yes, as one of His daughters I pray to my Father, Jesus Christ. I was given to Him (one of His sheep) by HIS father, at the beginning of this eternity.

I’m of the opinion that Adam, the father of the human family who presides over the spirits of all men, has yet to deliver up his stewardship to Christ - the “keys of the universe,” as Joseph Smith said and that the marriage supper of the Lamb is still future. But I’m still working things out, poor disadvantaged Brighamite though I am.

Edit to add: I guess I just don’t get this mentality. To me, it’s like saying that because of Isaac, Jacob doesn’t need Abraham or Rebekah in his life. Give me all of them. Heck, give me Enoch, too...all the way back to Adam.

[TheChristian]

If it was Jesus of Nazerath that hung apon the Cross.....

Then worship Him with all your heart, mind and strength..........

[nightlight]

What you're saying is redundant.

The Testament of Levi is pointing to Jesus Christ of Nazareth

Jesus is the culmination of all the rites of ancient religion.

Him actually hanging from the staff is the climax of all symbolism

Saying the cross goes beyond Jesus is just a handicap in understanding

You seem to be on some sort of "beyond Jesus" phase in your search for truth.

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
------

15 Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are.
---------


I am the way, the truth, and the life:
--------

Jesus said he was “the way”....to what? He is “the truth”...about what, exactly?

Did He not say in that same breath, “no man cometh unto the Father, but by me”?

He is the way to the Father.

There is something “beyond Jesus”; something to which He testifies and to which He gives us access. He renews the creation that someone else made.

D&C 76:76 These (bodies terrestrial) are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father perhaps testifies to the fact that there is something “beyond Jesus” - so, yes, I will pursue it.

Wait??? You don't believe Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the creator of the earth and sky... and all things in them?

Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament. Brighamites denying this does not change reality

Mosiah 3:5–10, given about 124 B.C.:

For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.

And he shall cast out devils, or the evil spirits which dwell in the hearts of the children of men.

And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people.

And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.

And lo, he cometh unto his own, that salvation might come unto the children of men even through faith on his name; and even after all this they shall consider him a man, and say that he hath a devil, and shall scourge him, and shall crucify him.

And he shall rise the third day from the dead; and behold, he standeth to judge the world; and behold, all these things are done that a righteous judgment might come upon the children of men.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

Yea, even the very God of Israel do men trample under their feet; I say, trample under their feet but I would speak in other words-they set him at naught, and hearken not to the voice of his counsels.

And behold he cometh, according to the words of the angel, in six hundred years from the time my father left Jerusalem.

And the world, because of their iniquity, shall judge him to be a thing of naught; wherefore they scourge him, and he suffereth it; and they smite him, and he suffereth it. Yea, they spit upon him, and he suffereth it, because of his loving kindness and his long-suffering towards the children of men.

And the God of our fathers, who were led out of Egypt, out of bondage, and also were preserved in the wilderness by him, yea, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, yieldeth himself, according to the words of the angel, as a man, into the hands of wicked men, to be lifted up, according to the words of Zenock, and to be crucified, according to the words of Neum, and to be buried in a sepulchre, according to the words of Zenos, which he spake concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the house of Israel.
+++++++++++++

This is what I've a hard time with Mormons claiming

That they claim to pursue beyond Jesus Christ.

Do the very trees obey their command?
Do they cause the blind to see?
Have they talked to angels?
Have they seen the face of Christ?
Etc

I see all these Mormons declare that they are beyond salvation and in the steps of exaltation.... But they don't even understand the reality of the being who is Christ

If Jesus Christ is one with the Father , there is nothing beyond Him.

If you've seen the face of Christ....you've seen the Father.

Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

How are we, then, joint-heirs with Christ? What do we inherit?

And why do we pray to the Father, having been given access to Him through Jesus? Why not just pray to Jesus?

We inherit the next evolution of our beings

I don't believe the Father is what you think He is. I believe He's a spirit.... A spirit that has never not been omnipotent.

Your God formula will always hit a brick wall. If the spirit comes becomes before the flesh...who did the first God Spirit get his body from? Wouldn't that mean that the first God spirit was both the father and the son.

There is an outside force that is beyond what man is. This is the Father



Anything you can possibly learn right now, any truth that you can pursue will always end at the feet of I AM

[Pazooka]

Jesus said he was “the way”....to what? He is “the truth”...about what, exactly?

Did He not say in that same breath, “no man cometh unto the Father, but by me”?

He is the way to the Father.

There is something “beyond Jesus”; something to which He testifies and to which He gives us access. He renews the creation that someone else made.

D&C 76:76 These (bodies terrestrial) are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father perhaps testifies to the fact that there is something “beyond Jesus” - so, yes, I will pursue it.

Wait??? You don't believe Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the creator of the earth and sky... and all things in them?

Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament. Brighamites denying this does not change reality

Mosiah 3:5–10, given about 124 B.C.:

For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.

And he shall cast out devils, or the evil spirits which dwell in the hearts of the children of men.

And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people.

And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.

And lo, he cometh unto his own, that salvation might come unto the children of men even through faith on his name; and even after all this they shall consider him a man, and say that he hath a devil, and shall scourge him, and shall crucify him.

And he shall rise the third day from the dead; and behold, he standeth to judge the world; and behold, all these things are done that a righteous judgment might come upon the children of men.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

Yea, even the very God of Israel do men trample under their feet; I say, trample under their feet but I would speak in other words-they set him at naught, and hearken not to the voice of his counsels.

And behold he cometh, according to the words of the angel, in six hundred years from the time my father left Jerusalem.

And the world, because of their iniquity, shall judge him to be a thing of naught; wherefore they scourge him, and he suffereth it; and they smite him, and he suffereth it. Yea, they spit upon him, and he suffereth it, because of his loving kindness and his long-suffering towards the children of men.

And the God of our fathers, who were led out of Egypt, out of bondage, and also were preserved in the wilderness by him, yea, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, yieldeth himself, according to the words of the angel, as a man, into the hands of wicked men, to be lifted up, according to the words of Zenock, and to be crucified, according to the words of Neum, and to be buried in a sepulchre, according to the words of Zenos, which he spake concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the house of Israel.
+++++++++++++

This is what I've a hard time with Mormons claiming

That they claim to pursue beyond Jesus Christ.

Do the very trees obey their command?
Do they cause the blind to see?
Have they talked to angels?
Have they seen the face of Christ?
Etc

I see all these Mormons declare that they are beyond salvation and in the steps of exaltation.... But they don't even understand the reality of the being who is Christ

If Jesus Christ is one with the Father , there is nothing beyond Him.

If you've seen the face of Christ....you've seen the Father.

Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

How are we, then, joint-heirs with Christ? What do we inherit?

And why do we pray to the Father, having been given access to Him through Jesus? Why not just pray to Jesus?

We inherit the next evolution of our beings

I don't believe the Father is what you think He is. I believe He's a spirit.... A spirit that has never not been omnipotent.

Your God formula will always hit a brick wall. If the spirit comes becomes before the flesh...who did the first God Spirit get his body from? Wouldn't that mean that the first God spirit was both the father and the son.

There is an outside force that is beyond what man is. This is the Father



Anything you can possibly learn right now, any truth that you can pursue will always end at the feet of I AM

Anyone who believes that Joseph Smith saw the Father and the Son is obviously not going to agree with you.

[nightlight]

Wait??? You don't believe Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the creator of the earth and sky... and all things in them?

Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament. Brighamites denying this does not change reality

Mosiah 3:5–10, given about 124 B.C.:

For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.

And he shall cast out devils, or the evil spirits which dwell in the hearts of the children of men.

And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people.

And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.

And lo, he cometh unto his own, that salvation might come unto the children of men even through faith on his name; and even after all this they shall consider him a man, and say that he hath a devil, and shall scourge him, and shall crucify him.

And he shall rise the third day from the dead; and behold, he standeth to judge the world; and behold, all these things are done that a righteous judgment might come upon the children of men.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

Yea, even the very God of Israel do men trample under their feet; I say, trample under their feet but I would speak in other words-they set him at naught, and hearken not to the voice of his counsels.

And behold he cometh, according to the words of the angel, in six hundred years from the time my father left Jerusalem.

And the world, because of their iniquity, shall judge him to be a thing of naught; wherefore they scourge him, and he suffereth it; and they smite him, and he suffereth it. Yea, they spit upon him, and he suffereth it, because of his loving kindness and his long-suffering towards the children of men.

And the God of our fathers, who were led out of Egypt, out of bondage, and also were preserved in the wilderness by him, yea, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, yieldeth himself, according to the words of the angel, as a man, into the hands of wicked men, to be lifted up, according to the words of Zenock, and to be crucified, according to the words of Neum, and to be buried in a sepulchre, according to the words of Zenos, which he spake concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the house of Israel.
+++++++++++++

This is what I've a hard time with Mormons claiming

That they claim to pursue beyond Jesus Christ.

Do the very trees obey their command?
Do they cause the blind to see?
Have they talked to angels?
Have they seen the face of Christ?
Etc

I see all these Mormons declare that they are beyond salvation and in the steps of exaltation.... But they don't even understand the reality of the being who is Christ

If Jesus Christ is one with the Father , there is nothing beyond Him.

If you've seen the face of Christ....you've seen the Father.

Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

How are we, then, joint-heirs with Christ? What do we inherit?

And why do we pray to the Father, having been given access to Him through Jesus? Why not just pray to Jesus?

We inherit the next evolution of our beings

I don't believe the Father is what you think He is. I believe He's a spirit.... A spirit that has never not been omnipotent.

Your God formula will always hit a brick wall. If the spirit comes becomes before the flesh...who did the first God Spirit get his body from? Wouldn't that mean that the first God spirit was both the father and the son.

There is an outside force that is beyond what man is. This is the Father



Anything you can possibly learn right now, any truth that you can pursue will always end at the feet of I AM

Anyone who believes that Joseph Smith saw the Father and the Son is obviously not going to agree with you.

I never suggested that the Father is unseeable and without form

[Pazooka]

If it was Jesus of Nazerath that hung apon the Cross.....

Then worship Him with all your heart, mind and strength..........

How does the acknowledgment of the Family that created and anointed the Son preclude the sincere worship of Him? Honestly.

[Pazooka]

How are we, then, joint-heirs with Christ? What do we inherit?

And why do we pray to the Father, having been given access to Him through Jesus? Why not just pray to Jesus?

We inherit the next evolution of our beings

I don't believe the Father is what you think He is. I believe He's a spirit.... A spirit that has never not been omnipotent.

Your God formula will always hit a brick wall. If the spirit comes becomes before the flesh...who did the first God Spirit get his body from? Wouldn't that mean that the first God spirit was both the father and the son.

There is an outside force that is beyond what man is. This is the Father



Anything you can possibly learn right now, any truth that you can pursue will always end at the feet of I AM

Anyone who believes that Joseph Smith saw the Father and the Son is obviously not going to agree with you.

I never suggested that the Father is unseeable and without form

The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's (D&C 130:22, Sunday, April 2, 1843, in Ramus, Illinois)

[nightlight]

We inherit the next evolution of our beings

I don't believe the Father is what you think He is. I believe He's a spirit.... A spirit that has never not been omnipotent.

Your God formula will always hit a brick wall. If the spirit comes becomes before the flesh...who did the first God Spirit get his body from? Wouldn't that mean that the first God spirit was both the father and the son.

There is an outside force that is beyond what man is. This is the Father



Anything you can possibly learn right now, any truth that you can pursue will always end at the feet of I AM

Anyone who believes that Joseph Smith saw the Father and the Son is obviously not going to agree with you.

I never suggested that the Father is unseeable and without form

The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's (D&C 130:22, Sunday, April 2, 1843, in Ramus, Illinois)

Joseph Smith :
There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing, and supreme power over all things—by whom all things were created and made that are created and made, whether visible or invisible; whether in heaven, on earth, or in the earth, under the earth, or throughout the immensity of space. They are the Father and the Son: The Father being a personage of spirit, glory, and power, possessing all perfection and fullness. The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle, made or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man—or rather, man was formed after his likeness and in his image. He is also the express image and likeness of the personage of the Father, possessing all the fullness of the Father, or the same fullness with the Father, being begotten of him