Poll: Word of Wisdom outliers

For discussing the Church, Gospel of Jesus Christ, Mormonism, etc.

Which of these should be in the WoW (multiple options)

Decaffeinated tea & coffee
15
7%
Ice tea & coffee
20
9%
Green tea
16
7%
Energy drinks (taurine)
21
10%
Caffeinated soda/soft drinks
19
9%
Non-alcoholic wine/beer/gin etc
6
3%
Cannabis (see linked thread)
13
6%
Certain prescription medicines (please discussl
24
11%
Betel nut
8
4%
Kava
7
3%
Khat
6
3%
Maté
6
3%
Guarana
7
3%
Psychedelic mushrooms
21
10%
Certain processed/fast food
25
12%
 
Total votes: 214
FoundMyEden
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Re: Poll: Word of Wisdom outliers

Post by FoundMyEden »

nightlight wrote: August 6th, 2022, 2:38 pm
mudflap wrote: August 6th, 2022, 1:04 pm
Niemand wrote: August 6th, 2022, 12:05 pm
NummyMilkBottle wrote: August 5th, 2022, 5:05 pm Milk!
Vegans and a few others would agree with you.
The stuff they sell at Walmart isn't milk, just saying....
Do you drink raw milk?
We drink raw goat milk. Don't buy it from the store and think you're going to like it. Raw, chilled, just off the teat is the best way to enjoy it. And with all the baby formula scare going on...goats' milk is super great for the babes.

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Momma J
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Re: Poll: Word of Wisdom outliers

Post by Momma J »

mudflap wrote: August 6th, 2022, 9:44 am WOW seems so......"entry level" after what I've been through.

I will say....it's ok to start out with the basics of this law- but not to stay there. Don't be a Saint that has to be compelled in all things - seek out revelation for yourself.

I'll just add this: in the 1950's, it was discovered white sugar was the cause of high blood cholesterol. The sugar industry didn't like this discovery so they paid researchers to cover up the study. And for years, doctors all over the USA were telling people that "red meat = high cholesterol". The real original study was only uncovered in 2000's - 2010? It will probably take 20 years (the industry norm) for it to filter down to your doctor. You can look at this up - the NYT did an article about it a few years ago.

If you really listen to the Spirit - in all things - including what you eat - you cannot stay at the entry level of the W.O.W. It's slothful, and it's not what God wants. There are no "plateaus" in the Gospel.
I remember reading in a medical journal a few years back that sugar feeds cancer cells. I need to see if that study is still available on the net.

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Niemand
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Re: Poll: Word of Wisdom outliers

Post by Niemand »

FoundMyEden wrote: August 8th, 2022, 6:30 pm
nightlight wrote: August 6th, 2022, 2:38 pm
mudflap wrote: August 6th, 2022, 1:04 pm
Niemand wrote: August 6th, 2022, 12:05 pm

Vegans and a few others would agree with you.
The stuff they sell at Walmart isn't milk, just saying....
Do you drink raw milk?
We drink raw goat milk. Don't buy it from the store and think you're going to like it. Raw, chilled, just off the teat is the best way to enjoy it. And with all the baby formula scare going on...goats' milk is super great for the babes.
Goat's milk is a bit of an acquired taste. Yes, I have had it fresh. We used to have two or three goats out the back of our place. It seems to have less issues than cows' milk for some people. I think this is because cows have been much more overbred than goats which remain a less prominent form of livestock (at least in the west).

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creator
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Re: Poll: Word of Wisdom outliers

Post by creator »

Niemand wrote: August 4th, 2022, 5:07 pmWell, it was interfering with my heart rhythm in my twenties, so that was a major deterrent.

The funny thing is I actually like Red Bull as a company because they put money into a lot of interesting minority sports.
The interesting thing about the Word of Wisdom recommending against coffee, tea, and strong alcohol, is they affect the body in ways that make it more difficult to be partakers in the stated blessings to: "receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones; And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures; And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint. And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them.."

There is wisdom expressed in the Word of Wisdom, but I don't think people should be viewed as a bad person, or unworthy, if they choose not to abide by those things. They simply won't fully receive the blessings that naturally go along with healthy living.

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Niemand
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Re: Poll: Word of Wisdom outliers

Post by Niemand »

Here's another one not mentioned.... nicotine gum. As I've said elsewhere I'm surprised it didn't make more of a comeback since smoking bans. But it is addictive and it does seem to cause mouth cancer.

Chewing tobacco is out, but is nicotine gum?

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SJR3t2
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Re: Poll: Word of Wisdom outliers

Post by SJR3t2 »

D&C 89:2 not by commandment nor constraint
D&C 89:5 use wine for the sacrament
D&C 89:17 mild barley drink aka beer is good for men

D&C (LDS 89:2,5,17) (RLDS 86) (1835 80) (1844 81)
2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—
5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.
17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.

1828 Webster’s Dictionary, CONSTRAINT:

CONSTRAINT, noun Irresistible force, or its effect; any force, or power, physical or moral, which compels to act or to forbear action, or which urges so strongly as to produce its effect upon the body or mind; compulsion; restraint; confinement.
Not by constraint but by my choice, I came.
Feed the flock of God, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint but willingly. 1 Peter 5:2.

1828 Webster’s Dictionary, MILD:

2. Not acrid, pungent, corrosive or drastic; operating gently; not acrimonious; demulcent; mollifying; lenitive; assuasive; as a mild LIQUOR; a mild cataplasm; a mild cathartic or emetic.

https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/word-of-wisdom/

mtmom
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Re: Poll: Word of Wisdom outliers

Post by mtmom »

nightlight wrote: August 4th, 2022, 6:00 pm
MikeMaillet wrote: August 4th, 2022, 5:16 pm I've often wondered about the covenant Jehovah made with the Israelites regarding diet. We Gentiles seem to have been given a similar, but less stringent law we call the WoW. Is that what "the weakest of Saints" refers to in the WoW?

Mike Maillet
Ingleside, Ontario
Dietary laws are of the lesser law.

We weren't given a dietary law. LDS false traditions are the only thing in work here

Drinking coffee doesn't make you unholy or unworthy. It doesn't lessen the Spirit or disqualify.

Believing that partaking of tea, coffee, beer, wine,meat, tobacco, etc. are sins in themselves (or disqualifiers) is simply a lack of understanding the words of Jesus Christ (high law).
Matthew 15
17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

mtpop
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Re: Poll: Word of Wisdom outliers

Post by mtpop »

What part of "not by commandment or constraint" do we not understand? Remember, he who needs to be compelled in all things is the same as a slothful servant . Let us not be like the Jews that took a law of God and made a law to protect a law and another law to protect it until you could no longer recognize the original and have pulled out of context what God said.

logonbump
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Re: Poll: Word of Wisdom outliers

Post by logonbump »

Am economic interpretation of the Word of Wisdom by Leonard Arrington

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/vie ... text=byusq

Letfreedumbring
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Re: Poll: Word of Wisdom outliers

Post by Letfreedumbring »

mudflap wrote: August 6th, 2022, 9:44 am
I'll just add this: in the 1950's, it was discovered white sugar was the cause of high blood cholesterol. The sugar industry didn't like this discovery so they paid researchers to cover up the study. And for years, doctors all over the USA were telling people that "red meat = high cholesterol". The real original study was only uncovered in 2000's - 2010? It will probably take 20 years (the industry norm) for it to filter down to your doctor. You can look at this up - the NYT did an article about it a few years ago.

If you really listen to the Spirit - in all things - including what you eat - you cannot stay at the entry level of the W.O.W. It's slothful, and it's not what God wants. There are no "plateaus" in the Gospel.
If sugar is so bad, why has there never been any additions to the word of wisdom about it? Or even a casual reference to the dangers in church manuals or any discussion of it in food storage preparations.

What we do know is the Amalgamated Sugar Company was started by David Eccles the parent to famed mormon Mariner Eccles, FED Chair and even had Joseph F Smith, as its president before becoming president of a different corporation. No wonder the 1925 hard stance on Word of Wisdom to include temperance movement attitudes instituted as a firm requirement to temple entrance included coffee and tea but not the sugar that would go in them.

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mudflap
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Re: Poll: Word of Wisdom outliers

Post by mudflap »

Letfreedumbring wrote: December 3rd, 2022, 9:22 pm
mudflap wrote: August 6th, 2022, 9:44 am
I'll just add this: in the 1950's, it was discovered white sugar was the cause of high blood cholesterol. The sugar industry didn't like this discovery so they paid researchers to cover up the study. And for years, doctors all over the USA were telling people that "red meat = high cholesterol". The real original study was only uncovered in 2000's - 2010? It will probably take 20 years (the industry norm) for it to filter down to your doctor. You can look at this up - the NYT did an article about it a few years ago.

If you really listen to the Spirit - in all things - including what you eat - you cannot stay at the entry level of the W.O.W. It's slothful, and it's not what God wants. There are no "plateaus" in the Gospel.
If sugar is so bad, why has there never been any additions to the word of wisdom about it? Or even a casual reference to the dangers in church manuals or any discussion of it in food storage preparations.

What we do know is the Amalgamated Sugar Company was started by David Eccles the parent to famed mormon Mariner Eccles, FED Chair and even had Joseph F Smith, as its president before becoming president of a different corporation. No wonder the 1925 hard stance on Word of Wisdom to include temperance movement attitudes instituted as a firm requirement to temple entrance included coffee and tea but not the sugar that would go in them.
WOW doesn't say anything about weed or heroine either, so based on this logic, I guess they are ok.

"sugar is bad" falls under the "hidden treasures" section of the revelation. ;)

Letfreedumbring
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Re: Poll: Word of Wisdom outliers

Post by Letfreedumbring »

Sugar actually has been compared to heroine in the areas it excites in the brain. I think it is the same principle of lack of specifics.

The Word of Wisdom given in scripture "as a greeting, not by way of commandment or constraint" has instead become a Hello! it is now a commandment and now constrains anyone wanting to attend the temple which such revisions are not written in any book of scripture.

It is also incredibly vague but touted as the Lord's Law of Health that will protect us. Yet it doesn't even mention coffee or tea specifically yet that is used as restrictive criteria for members of the church. Given this spurious production of doctrine out of thin air which contradicts the original scripture from the Lord's chosen seer, it could at least be advanced, since we have current living guys that are supposed to do the same thing, to act at least as a reservoir for all good health practices to date.

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cab
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Re: Poll: Word of Wisdom outliers

Post by cab »

nightlight wrote: August 4th, 2022, 6:00 pm
MikeMaillet wrote: August 4th, 2022, 5:16 pm I've often wondered about the covenant Jehovah made with the Israelites regarding diet. We Gentiles seem to have been given a similar, but less stringent law we call the WoW. Is that what "the weakest of Saints" refers to in the WoW?

Mike Maillet
Ingleside, Ontario
Dietary laws are of the lesser law.

We weren't given a dietary law. LDS false traditions are the only thing in work here

Drinking coffee doesn't make you unholy or unworthy. It doesn't lessen the Spirit or disqualify.

Believing that partaking of tea, coffee, beer, wine,meat, tobacco, etc. are sins in themselves (or disqualifiers) is simply a lack of understanding the words of Jesus Christ (high law).

Many members of the church may benefit from going far out on a limb and having a beer or two just for the sake of putting their traditions on the altar. Kind of like when Jesus and the apostles picked wheat and ate it on the sabbath….

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MikeMaillet
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Re: Poll: Word of Wisdom outliers

Post by MikeMaillet »

One of the major problems we face when looking at substances consumed by mankind is our lifestyle and reliance on others for our food. I believe we were meant to grow our own food and to become self-reliant. This way we would be eating natural foods without preservatives and other nasty chemicals. We might also think twice about taking a dump in our backyard since we would have to eat the food that grows out of there.

I've worked in food manufacturing most of my life and with the exception of one company, I could not count on the corporation to make the right decisions when faced with quality/spoilage issues. The large food corporations are run by greedy SOBs just like every other major corporation. Food companies do not give a rat's @#$ about your health nor do they care about the environment. All that companies worry about are things such as yield and profit, period.

I can't count the number of times at church when a person would be asked to offer a blessing on the food when the food was hot dogs, burgers, potato chips, soda pop... I never felt comfortable reaching out to God in the Name of the Saviour in order that my plate of garbage be blessed and good for me.

Should we not be looking at the bigger picture wherein we have given up our ability to sustain ourselves in exchange for a salary? How many people have we turned away because they did not "follow the WoW?" We can nit-pick about "hot drinks", cannabis... but we have bigger fish to fry (sorry) when it comes to how we LDS sustain ourselves.

Lastly, there was a time when our surplus was tithed and brought over to the Bishop's Storehouse. This ensured that no food was wasted and that everyone had something to eat. Now, we work for the man for worthless currency that is tithed and used to pay for the salaries of Prophets, Seers and Revelators as well as for building shopping malls and investing in corporations that openly promote homosexuality and the sexualization of children.

Mike

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mudflap
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Re: Poll: Word of Wisdom outliers

Post by mudflap »

Letfreedumbring wrote: December 3rd, 2022, 9:47 pm Sugar actually has been compared to heroine in the areas it excites in the brain. I think it is the same principle of lack of specifics.

The Word of Wisdom given in scripture "as a greeting, not by way of commandment or constraint" has instead become a Hello! it is now a commandment and now constrains anyone wanting to attend the temple which such revisions are not written in any book of scripture.

It is also incredibly vague but touted as the Lord's Law of Health that will protect us. Yet it doesn't even mention coffee or tea specifically yet that is used as restrictive criteria for members of the church. Given this spurious production of doctrine out of thin air which contradicts the original scripture from the Lord's chosen seer, it could at least be advanced, since we have current living guys that are supposed to do the same thing, to act at least as a reservoir for all good health practices to date.
Ok, I see what you mean now - I've felt like they should update the W.O.W. as well at times as I've learned more and more about health. But I have changed my mind - I think if folks are out there doing the bare minimum with the W.O.W., then they deserve the bare minimum blessings that will give them. If you want the "advanced" blessings of health, you have to dig into the hidden treasures of the W.O.W.. It's not a wise servant who has to be compelled in all things.

The LETTER of the WOW is the do's and don'ts contained in it. The SPIRIT of the WOW is: don't ingest things that are addictive. Folks would do well to study D&C 59 alongside D&C 89. 59 is just as important as 89, but isn't promoted like it should be.

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SJR3t2
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Re: Poll: Word of Wisdom outliers

Post by SJR3t2 »

cab wrote: December 3rd, 2022, 9:53 pm
nightlight wrote: August 4th, 2022, 6:00 pm
MikeMaillet wrote: August 4th, 2022, 5:16 pm I've often wondered about the covenant Jehovah made with the Israelites regarding diet. We Gentiles seem to have been given a similar, but less stringent law we call the WoW. Is that what "the weakest of Saints" refers to in the WoW?

Mike Maillet
Ingleside, Ontario
Dietary laws are of the lesser law.

We weren't given a dietary law. LDS false traditions are the only thing in work here

Drinking coffee doesn't make you unholy or unworthy. It doesn't lessen the Spirit or disqualify.

Believing that partaking of tea, coffee, beer, wine,meat, tobacco, etc. are sins in themselves (or disqualifiers) is simply a lack of understanding the words of Jesus Christ (high law).

Many members of the church may benefit from going far out on a limb and having a beer or two just for the sake of putting their traditions on the altar. Kind of like when Jesus and the apostles picked wheat and ate it on the sabbath….
WoW states that having a beer is good for you. And when Yeshua and the apostles picked the wheat it was going against man made law not the Torah.

D&C 89:17 mild barley drink aka beer is good for men
D&C (LDS 89:2,5,17) (RLDS 86) (1835 80) (1844 81)
17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.
1828 Webster’s Dictionary, MILD:
2. Not acrid, pungent, corrosive or drastic; operating gently; not acrimonious; demulcent; mollifying; lenitive; assuasive; as a mild LIQUOR; a mild cataplasm; a mild cathartic or emetic.
https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/word-of-wisdom/

Lord of the Sabbath (Matthew 12:1-8; Mark 2:23-28; Luke 6:1-5) - 119 Ministries
https://youtu.be/owoFcFu2qec

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Robin Hood
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Re: Poll: Word of Wisdom outliers

Post by Robin Hood »

Pork and shellfish.

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Niemand
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Re: Poll: Word of Wisdom outliers

Post by Niemand »

Robin Hood wrote: December 4th, 2022, 1:18 pm Pork and shellfish.
The striking thing about the WoW is how little it has to say about food. I'm largely sworn off shellfish these days except crab and lobster.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Poll: Word of Wisdom outliers

Post by Robin Hood »

Niemand wrote: December 4th, 2022, 2:03 pm
Robin Hood wrote: December 4th, 2022, 1:18 pm Pork and shellfish.
The striking thing about the WoW is how little it has to say about food. I'm largely sworn off shellfish these days except crab and lobster.
That's like saying I don't eat pork, except sausage and bacon :?
The WoW does mention food quite a bit really.... meat, fruit in the season thereof, grain, herbs (ie. vegetables) etc.

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Niemand
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Re: Poll: Word of Wisdom outliers

Post by Niemand »

Robin Hood wrote: December 4th, 2022, 2:19 pm
Niemand wrote: December 4th, 2022, 2:03 pm
Robin Hood wrote: December 4th, 2022, 1:18 pm Pork and shellfish.
The striking thing about the WoW is how little it has to say about food. I'm largely sworn off shellfish these days except crab and lobster.
That's like saying I don't eat pork, except sausage and bacon :?
The WoW does mention food quite a bit really.... meat, fruit in the season thereof, grain, herbs (ie. vegetables) etc.
Nah, not quite. Lobsters and crabs are obviously quite different creatures from the molluscs which are more or less the marine form of slugs and snails. The main connection between the two groups seem to be having shells and living in the sea. The pig and the cow have more in common than these two groups do.

For some reason mussels tend to revolt me now. In a survival situation I might eat them. It may come to that given the current trends.

Yes, it does mention grains. But it goes into nothing like the detail the Torah does about food. It mentions meat, but not as specifically as the Mosaic law. No ban on rabbits.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Poll: Word of Wisdom outliers

Post by Robin Hood »

Niemand wrote: December 4th, 2022, 2:27 pm
Robin Hood wrote: December 4th, 2022, 2:19 pm
Niemand wrote: December 4th, 2022, 2:03 pm
Robin Hood wrote: December 4th, 2022, 1:18 pm Pork and shellfish.
The striking thing about the WoW is how little it has to say about food. I'm largely sworn off shellfish these days except crab and lobster.
That's like saying I don't eat pork, except sausage and bacon :?
The WoW does mention food quite a bit really.... meat, fruit in the season thereof, grain, herbs (ie. vegetables) etc.
Nah, not quite. Lobsters and crabs are obviously quite different creatures from the molluscs which are more or less the marine form of slugs and snails. The main connection between the two groups seem to be having shells and living in the sea. The pig and the cow have more in common than these two groups do.

For some reason mussels tend to revolt me now. In a survival situation I might eat them. It may come to that given the current trends.

Yes, it does mention grains. But it goes into nothing like the detail the Torah does about food. It mentions meat, but not as specifically as the Mosaic law. No ban on rabbits.
Lobsters and crabs are bottom feeders, just like prawns etc. They're all regarded as shellfish.
For example, live on the coast. Shellfish kiosks down at the seafront sell mussels, cockles, whelks, prawns/shrimps, lobsters, and crabs.

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Niemand
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Re: Poll: Word of Wisdom outliers

Post by Niemand »

Robin Hood wrote: December 4th, 2022, 2:33 pm Lobsters and crabs are bottom feeders, just like prawns etc.
Or many humans. 😆 Only joking.
They're all regarded as shellfish.
Who knows why, tradition maybe? Flatfish are all bottom feeders too but know their plaice, sorry old joke., but aren't regarded in the same way. Eels are bottom feeders too, but many people here do have a bit of a horror of them.

Mussels and whelks are clearly a different class of creature from lobsters and prawns. For example, the latter show a smidgin of intelligence and have limbs. We can be a bit arbitrary in how we classify things sometimes. (Another example would be the word "tree" which seems to cover a number of plants which are very different from one another, but merely have size in common.)

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Robin Hood
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Re: Poll: Word of Wisdom outliers

Post by Robin Hood »

Niemand wrote: December 4th, 2022, 2:43 pm
Robin Hood wrote: December 4th, 2022, 2:33 pm Lobsters and crabs are bottom feeders, just like prawns etc.
Or many humans. 😆 Only joking.
They're all regarded as shellfish.
Who knows why, tradition maybe? Flatfish are all bottom feeders too they know their plaice, sorry old joke., but aren't regarded in the same way. Eels are bottom feeders too, but many people here do have a bit of a horror of them.

Mussels and whelks are clearly a different class of creature from lobsters and prawns. For example, the latter show a smidgin of intelligence and have limbs. We can be a bit arbitrary in how we classify things sometimes. (Another example would be the word "tree" which seems to cover a number of plants which are very different from one another, but merely have size in common.)
When I say "bottom feeder" I'm not referring to depth. I am referring to the place they occupy in the food chain. Shellfish will eat crap... literally!
So will pigs actually.

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Niemand
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Re: Poll: Word of Wisdom outliers

Post by Niemand »

Robin Hood wrote: December 4th, 2022, 2:46 pm
Niemand wrote: December 4th, 2022, 2:43 pm
Robin Hood wrote: December 4th, 2022, 2:33 pm Lobsters and crabs are bottom feeders, just like prawns etc.
Or many humans. 😆 Only joking.
They're all regarded as shellfish.
Who knows why, tradition maybe? Flatfish are all bottom feeders too they know their plaice, sorry old joke., but aren't regarded in the same way. Eels are bottom feeders too, but many people here do have a bit of a horror of them.

Mussels and whelks are clearly a different class of creature from lobsters and prawns. For example, the latter show a smidgin of intelligence and have limbs. We can be a bit arbitrary in how we classify things sometimes. (Another example would be the word "tree" which seems to cover a number of plants which are very different from one another, but merely have size in common.)
When I say "bottom feeder" I'm not referring to depth. I am referring to the place they occupy in the food chain. Shellfish will eat crap... literally!
So will pigs actually.
Yes, pigs will. And dogs, although we're best buddies with them (Mine would. I miss him very much, but not in that respect.) Chickens will too if you leave them in a bad environment.

I wonder if this is partly why rabbits were not kosher, because they do eat their own excrement?

Sewage is one of the main reasons I'm inclined not to eat molluscs. Crustaceans tend to be scavengers and that's more of the problem there. But with the state of the oceans now, I think many creatures are contaminated with one thing or another.

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