Faith crisis or Truth crisis?

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Thinker
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Re: Faith crisis or Truth crisis?

Post by Thinker »

Niemand wrote: December 1st, 2022, 6:37 am
Thinker wrote: November 30th, 2022, 9:32 am I have repeatedly asked extended family to please not send Mormon stuff, trying to change my mind, but they keep doing it, like this morning. For that and other reasons, I’ve increased boundaries & won’t even try to respond.

If I did respond, I might share this talk by a guy who left the church for a while, has some good tips for members who actually care about family or friends who have left the church…

“I asked a Facebook group notorious for its community of ex-Mormons — many of whom are very vocal about their frustrations with the church — a question: ‘What would you tell a member of the church to avoid doing if they DON’T WANT to cause unnecessary pain for someone they love who has chosen to leave?’
Here are some of the responses:

*When people treat you with pity and say things like, “I’m praying for you.”
*When you’re turned into a “project” and people only come to your house to fulfill a calling or “under assignment from the Bishop”
*When your family is turned into a weapon and used against you, like getting grandkids excited about church with the agenda of motivating parents to take them in the future, or using a family member’s temple sealing to pressure a less-active member into getting a temple recommend when they’re not worthy or don’t desire one.
*When you make assumptions about why someone leaves — like that they just want to sin, they don’t have enough faith, or they were never truly committed. I can’t tell you how many people said they’ve been gone from church for YEARS and nobody ever asked them why they left and sincerely listened to their answers.
*When you don’t reach out as a friend. Once some people stop coming to church, you might feel uncomfortable and ignore them because you don’t know what to say.
*Sending missionaries to visit them when they move to a new neighborhood despite constant requests to not be contacted by missionaries.
*Assuming that leaving the church equates to a loss of morals.
*Bearing your testimony to them with the assumption that it will somehow magically make their doubts and struggles disappear.

So the problem we’re running into is that people leave the church because they’re hurt… and then in an attempt to bring them back, we hurt them even more.
What you should do instead
So if you can’t do any of the above things to convince those you love to come back to church, what do you do?
The answer is simple: Stop trying to get them to come back to church!
Just love them...”


https://humanparts.medium.com/why-peopl ... 0e3e817a3a
Most people, even church members (!), have some sense of sincerity.

It's odd, I was helping our stake president with some things last Sunday – moving large objects around, finding things etc. I don't dislike him, but I did pick up on the fact that while I was chatting with him, that he was very distant. It's not like I was asking personal questions or being clingy or anything like that, I was having a normal conversation with him, but he was very business-like. He has been acquainted with me for a few years now, but honestly I've had better interactions with complete strangers!

Do I feel angry? No. Was he rude? No. Was I wasting time? No, we were just getting on with some work. Do we dislike each other? Definitely not, but there was just no real connection there. That's where the problem lies. When you have an entire group of people like that people won't hang around. I've encountered other people in my ward like that. There are people I've been to church with for ten years that I barely know. I go to a local independent café occasionally and I know the manager there much better than I know some ward members who've been round for years.
Assuming that leaving the church equates to a loss of morals.
Agreed – ditto mental illness.

Also stop assuming people only leave because someone offended them! That does happen, we know that, but many leave for numerous other reasons. I've heard this one repeated by GAs and church leaders so many times.

In the instance I mention above, I wasn't actually offended by the stake president and I'm happy to give him the time of day, but with him and certain others I feel no connection.

This issue has become worse since lockdown. Some older people have barely come back, and I barely know anyone who has moved in since. Most people barely acknowledge me, which I have mixed feelings about.
I agree that many lds have good hearts and sincerely mean well.

Could be your Stake pres’s personality has culminated that way & he acts similarly to everyone. Or… maybe he has inside info on you posting here… :lol:

Personally, I think a lifetime in lds church molds people to be a bit socially robotic. They act friendly only when told to and who they’re told to act friendly with and to what extent. A friend in our ward - who’s the exception - told me basically how hurt she was when the ward was split and her “friends” stopped meeting for lunch with her & basically stopped being friends. On one hand, church offers “instant community” - even if you move to a new place. On the other hand, that community is superficial and conditional. I have noticed (since I sit in the way back with other “outsiders”) that singles tend to be overlooked a lot - or even people who attend without their spouse.

True that church leaders & followers assume people being offended or mentally-ill is the only “possible” reason for distancing from a cultish religious corporation. That’s essentially gaslighting, a sign of mental illness. There are plenty of factual reasons to establish boundaries with the lds church, but it’s much easier to shoot the messenger than address the issues.

Letfreedumbring
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Re: Faith crisis or Truth crisis?

Post by Letfreedumbring »

Thinker wrote: December 3rd, 2022, 8:38 am
Personally, I think a lifetime in lds church molds people to be a bit socially robotic. They act friendly only when told to and who they’re told to act friendly with and to what extent. A friend in our ward - who’s the exception - told me basically how hurt she was when the ward was split and her “friends” stopped meeting for lunch with her & basically stopped being friends. On one hand, church offers “instant community” - even if you move to a new place. On the other hand, that community is superficial and conditional. I have noticed (since I sit in the way back with other “outsiders”) that singles tend to be overlooked a lot - or even people who attend without their spouse.

There are plenty of factual reasons to establish boundaries with the lds church, but it’s much easier to shoot the messenger than address the issues.
This has been one of the key issue of mormons I have encountered. Every aspect of their lives is dictated by the church. I do not believe it was ever meant to be this way. And it wasn't so back in the day before finances needed to be so centrally controlled to be able to purchase malls or $100B portfolios with no clear purpose for their use. Road shows, gold and green balls, quirky stuff, hobbies, reasonable expectations, etc were all threads in the fabric of mormon culture. It actually held the church together now it is only the shame of peers, guilt, and/or fear of less promising future.

How can there be any growth that comes from essentially being commanded in all things? Where is the wisdom learned by personal experience? Sadly the church gaslights people that they have freedom of choice and wonders why mental illness occurs when this is doctrine is only given lip service. The hidden depression/frustration probably springs from expectations set that they are indentured servants by covenant to follow the current guy.

If one doubts this, try refusing a calling and see what happens. Or not going along with every word the current prophet says even if it contradicts the prior prophet. Thought it was line upon line but it is revision upon revision.

We know who rules over us by what we are not allowed to talk about. - Voltaire

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Thinker
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Re: Faith crisis or Truth crisis?

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Letfreedumbring wrote: December 3rd, 2022, 5:28 pm
Thinker wrote: December 3rd, 2022, 8:38 am
Personally, I think a lifetime in lds church molds people to be a bit socially robotic. They act friendly only when told to and who they’re told to act friendly with and to what extent. A friend in our ward - who’s the exception - told me basically how hurt she was when the ward was split and her “friends” stopped meeting for lunch with her & basically stopped being friends. On one hand, church offers “instant community” - even if you move to a new place. On the other hand, that community is superficial and conditional. I have noticed (since I sit in the way back with other “outsiders”) that singles tend to be overlooked a lot - or even people who attend without their spouse.

There are plenty of factual reasons to establish boundaries with the lds church, but it’s much easier to shoot the messenger than address the issues.
This has been one of the key issue of mormons I have encountered. Every aspect of their lives is dictated by the church. I do not believe it was ever meant to be this way. And it wasn't so back in the day before finances needed to be so centrally controlled to be able to purchase malls or $100B portfolios with no clear purpose for their use. Road shows, gold and green balls, quirky stuff, hobbies, reasonable expectations, etc were all threads in the fabric of mormon culture. It actually held the church together now it is only the shame of peers, guilt, and/or fear of less promising future.

How can there be any growth that comes from essentially being commanded in all things? Where is the wisdom learned by personal experience? Sadly the church gaslights people that they have freedom of choice and wonders why mental illness occurs when this is doctrine is only given lip service. The hidden depression/frustration probably springs from expectations set that they are indentured servants by covenant to follow the current guy.

If one doubts this, try refusing a calling and see what happens. Or not going along with every word the current prophet says even if it contradicts the prior prophet. Thought it was line upon line but it is revision upon revision.

We know who rules over us by what we are not allowed to talk about. - Voltaire
I know what you mean. It’s kind of sad watching so much goodness of the religion I grew up with, die. But the good thing is that the deaths of the good parts is waking up people who would be still being deceived, otherwise. It seems kind of paradoxical how sometimes things have to get worse before they get better.

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Re: Faith crisis or Truth crisis?

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Trucker wrote: February 21st, 2022, 6:13 am I think the best description is a "trust crisis." People are losing trust in what they've been taught and losing trust in the leaders.
That sums it up well.

A phrase associated with faith crisis is “when my shelf fell.” It’s the idea that each time we come across something that doesn’t seem right about the church, we put it up on a metaphorical shelf, so it’s in peripheral rather than front & center. But if we do that with too many things, the shelf gets too heavy and collapses.

Thinking about an intellectual friend & considering how much she’s depended on the cult, as a single mother, I imagine she’s had some stuff on her shelf but she reinforced that shelf with metal brackets so it could bear a lot of weight. But it’s like it’s still connected only to sheetrock, so eventually it will fail. Still, I can understand and empathize with her need for confirmation bias & need to avoid certain ugly truths about the church.

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Rumpelstiltskin
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Re: Faith crisis or Truth crisis?

Post by Rumpelstiltskin »

Something that puzzles me is how can someone confuse faith in a gentile organization, faith in a man who professes to be a "prophet," and faith in Jesus Christ. Contrary to popular Mormon tradition, neither of them can save you. Neither The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints nor RM Nelson are Jesus Christ, nor are they the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Nothing in the scriptures requires anyone to have "faith" in an organization or a mortal. Only faith in Jesus Christ can save you. "...There is none other name given under heaven save it be this Jesus Christ, of which I have spoken, whereby man can be saved." (2 Nephi 25:20)

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Re: Faith crisis or Truth crisis?

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Religious pride - tends to delude us into thinking that we are somehow more special and right than others.

Neil Degrasse (1m) https://www.facebook.com/share/r/o6JzKG ... tid=xCPwDs

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