Church Growth

For discussing the Church, Gospel of Jesus Christ, Mormonism, etc.
User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13997

Re: Church Growth

Post by Niemand »

Thinker wrote: December 3rd, 2022, 8:15 am Ironically the church IS run like a business in many ways EXCEPT this. They took out all the incentives - the fun - & turned it into a multi-billion dollar company who’s CEO’s are clueless about the little guys - which make up the bulk of the religious corporation. On top of that de-incentivizing, they slap on cultish king-like insistence on prioritizing the CEO’s above all. Sane people slowly back away from this insanity, even if they took the bate initially.
This is true of politics and media too. The paradox is this is why these elites are alienated from the masses and dislike them, but also why they fail to administer them properly... precisely because they don't understand them. That was one of the few good things about these Covid restrictions – they made so many mistakes due to their detachment. It also exposed their detachment to the public when they started bleating about "stay indoors" when the public knew these people lived in mansions with huge grounds around them.

There is also the unfortunate fact that human social structures allow sociopaths to rise to the top

User avatar
darknesstolight
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3865

Re: Church Growth

Post by darknesstolight »

The Church has a problem with being truthful and honest. The leaders are basically accountable to nothing and have brainwashed the mass of members to accept anything they say or do as the will of God.

They are salt that has lost its saltiness by being diluted by the filthy waters of the world. They have excused themselves in their sins and seek to destroy the works of good by supporting the works of evil in their hearts.

I refuse to deny truth and will suffer and die if I must to speak truth and not lie.

The leaders of the Church have repeatedly demonstrated their loyalty is to power, wealth, and sex.

...

User avatar
HereWeGo
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1220

Re: Church Growth

Post by HereWeGo »

Thinker wrote: December 3rd, 2022, 8:15 am Ironically the church IS run like a business in many ways EXCEPT this. They took out all the incentives - the fun - & turned it into a multi-billion dollar company who’s CEO’s are clueless about the little guys - which make up the bulk of the religious corporation. On top of that de-incentivizing, they slap on cultish king-like insistence on prioritizing the CEO’s above all. Sane people slowly back away from this insanity, even if they took the bate initially.
Sad but true.

Letfreedumbring
captain of 100
Posts: 267

Re: Church Growth

Post by Letfreedumbring »

darknesstolight wrote: December 3rd, 2022, 9:41 am The Church has a problem with being truthful and honest. The leaders are basically accountable to nothing and have brainwashed the mass of members to accept anything they say or do as the will of God.

They are salt that has lost its saltiness by being diluted by the filthy waters of the world. They have excused themselves in their sins and seek to destroy the works of good by supporting the works of evil in their hearts.

I refuse to deny truth and will suffer and die if I must to speak truth and not lie.

The leaders of the Church have repeatedly demonstrated their loyalty is to power, wealth, and sex.
Sadly it makes one even question just like the founding of a great nation whether that was the plan all along.

The little people participating obviously would have no clue and think it is the greatest thing ever but Babylon doesn't just happen on its own.

User avatar
Thinker
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 12975
Location: The Universe - wherever that is.

Re: Church Growth

Post by Thinker »

Niemand wrote: December 3rd, 2022, 8:25 am
Thinker wrote: December 3rd, 2022, 8:15 am Ironically the church IS run like a business in many ways EXCEPT this. They took out all the incentives - the fun - & turned it into a multi-billion dollar company who’s CEO’s are clueless about the little guys - which make up the bulk of the religious corporation. On top of that de-incentivizing, they slap on cultish king-like insistence on prioritizing the CEO’s above all. Sane people slowly back away from this insanity, even if they took the bate initially.
This is true of politics and media too. The paradox is this is why these elites are alienated from the masses and dislike them, but also why they fail to administer them properly... precisely because they don't understand them. That was one of the few good things about these Covid restrictions – they made so many mistakes due to their detachment. It also exposed their detachment to the public when they started bleating about "stay indoors" when the public knew these people lived in mansions with huge grounds around them.

There is also the unfortunate fact that human social structures allow sociopaths to rise to the top
Good points.
We need to understand them enough to respond best. Sociopaths tend to rise largely because so many WANT to believe in the good of people & so will let them get their way. So many are blind - partly naive and partly willful ignoring.

We’ve been indoctrinated to avoid going within, despite 1 of Christ’s main message to. Even just talking about study of the soul (psych - ology), some will close their eyes. But if we are to make it through the narrow way, we need to integrate our psychological shadow, understand positive disintegration… then turn to God so He can help us turn weaknesses into strengths. Then we will understand that “in each of us is a bit of all of us” & we can avoid getting deceived by sociopathic forces. Plus, we can then better love others as ourselves, because it’s based on more awareness.

The church in significant ways is failing in its main purpose - to GROW spirituality in people. So we need to take the initiative ourselves - not be commanded in all things.

Letfreedumbring
captain of 100
Posts: 267

Re: Church Growth

Post by Letfreedumbring »

Atrasado wrote: December 1st, 2022, 6:02 pm It's not the lack of growth, per se, that bothers me. It's the lack of fruit.
Amway, Herbalife and Doterra all have adherents.

Even ecoli has growth and in all cases it's the fruits we need to be concerned with.

Never thought it was a good argument to base truthfulness on the growth of the church.
By that definition, Satan has the fastest growing church these days and they are even converting top level mormons too.

User avatar
MikeMaillet
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1594
Location: Ingleside, Ontario

Re: Church Growth

Post by MikeMaillet »

Wolfwoman wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 10:17 am
Mindfields wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 8:26 am
Wolfwoman wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 3:20 am That is interesting.
I can see how their stronger requirements for baptism would lead to more retention of new converts. Not sure how it would affect growth though.
I remember as a missionary we invited people to be baptized on the first or second discussion. If they accepted, then it was a lot left to learn in the remaining discussions and maybe unpleasant surprises. Quitting smoking as a requirement for baptism, for example, or paying tithing. Even our best investigators had a hard time making it to church on Sunday. I guess it’s hard to get up early on Sunday and get to church when you’re not used to it. I think they were required to come to church twice before being baptized. LOL when I came back from my mission I was called on several ward/stake missions. Ambitious missionaries (typically sisters) would go over to the investigator’s house on Sunday morning and knock on their bedroom window and other such things to try to get them up and ready for church. :lol: :lol: Even back then I felt that at some point you’ve got to let them have their agency and choose for themselves to come to church.

I can see why the church has less requirements to be baptized too. If you read the doctrine of Christ, it’s pretty straightforward. Have faith/Believe in Christ, repent of your sins and be baptized. Not being a priest myself, I’m not sure how I would check to see if someone was actually repentant. Maybe if they confessed their sins to you and expressed a desire to be better? I’d say the church is closer to doing it the right way (as long as it’s not baseball baptisms) than those other churches. In fact I think our church has too many requirements for baptism. Read the doctrine of Christ. There are the requirements. Now we’ve added things in like quit smoking. I have to say it’s a big regret of mine that a woman, one of our best investigators, couldn’t get baptized because she couldn’t quit smoking. Not being a priesthood holder, or the person in charge of such requirements, I don’t take the full blame for that. But I know we did allow one man to be baptized who had quit smoking for maybe 6 hours. :lol: Somehow it was fudged. But then the ward required him to quit “again” to be confirmed, and as far as I know he was never confirmed because he couldn’t quit. He then died of cancer a couple of years later. I’m not sure what the church does with such records that are in limbo. Surely they have a record of his baptism. But if they don’t have a record of his confirmation then what do they do with it?!
His baptism was literally like the first or second week of my mission. So I was just going along with what my senior companion did.
When BAPTISM is your goal and not conversion to Christ this makes perfect sense.
Maybe, maybe not. If that is the case, why require people to quit smoking? They could have had more baptisms if they dropped that requirement. (Maybe they’ll drop it in the future?!)
I always thought that the smoking rule was a bit odd. I remember quite a few very good people who opted not be baptized for this reason. Instead of telling people they're not good enough to join the club should we not be doing our best to help people beat this most pernicious of addictions?

It's a tad hypocritical to tell a smoker he/she is not good enough to be baptized because of the WoW but hey, let's go talk about it some more over lunch at McD's where we can chomp down on a huge burger in the middle of summer.

Mike

p8riot
captain of 100
Posts: 257

Re: Church Growth

Post by p8riot »

All a numbers game. Dunk as many as they can and if only 15-20% of those turn into tithe paying TBMs, it'll provide enough to sustain the Corp operating expenses so they don't have to dip into the billions in investments.

Post Reply