Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

For discussing the Church, Gospel of Jesus Christ, Mormonism, etc.
User avatar
Shawn Henry
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4514

Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Shawn Henry »

Thinker wrote: November 30th, 2022, 4:48 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: November 26th, 2022, 9:13 pmBecause almost all of the Mormons and ex-Mormons and all in between, don't seem to believe the BoM that the Father is the Son, but it seems you do. Good on you!
How can a father be the son?
Image

Christ wasn’t Yeshua/Jesus’s last name but what he became & urged us to follow and become. He wasn’t the great exception but the great example. If we imagine him on a godly throne pedestal up a mile high - how could we possibly follow him?

Moreover, as Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑
“… the existence of a Father and Son proves the existence of a Mother.”
Wow! You put some work into that picture. Nice job!

I'm not trying to tell anyone how to interpret the BoM. I'm just saying that it is a common theme throughout the book that he is both the father and the son and pretty much everyone ignores those verses.

In 3 Nephi 1 he says: "Behold, I come unto my own, to fulfil all things which I have made known unto the children of men from the foundation of the world, and to do the will, both of the Father and of the Son—of the Father because of me, and of the Son because of my flesh."

I see this as saying that it is the flesh that makes him the son. The will of the flesh was the same as the will of his spirit, indicating that he had enough control over the flesh to subjugate it to the will of the spirit.

There is also the change in the JST where Joseph changed one verse to, no one knows that the Father is the Son (that's my paraphrase).

User avatar
Alexander
the Great
Posts: 4590
Location: amongst the brotherhood of the Black Robed Regiment; cocked hat and cocked rifle

Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Alexander »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 30th, 2022, 12:45 am
Alexander wrote: November 29th, 2022, 9:25 pm "God forming man in his own image", and "the Gods forming man in their own image" are both true statements.

Moses 6
9 In the image of his own body, male and female, created he them, and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created and became living souls in the land upon the footstool of God.

"And God said, Let us make man in our image"

"So the Gods went down to organize man in their own image, in the image of the Gods to form they him, male and female to form they them."


God is dyadic, and this is expressed in the fact that man(kind) is dyadic, being male and female, because man(kind) was made in the image of God/the Gods; God/the Gods are male and female.

Adam and Eve are distinct.
If God the Father were talking to his wife you would have a case, but there's no hint of that at all. God the Father talking to Jesus Christ also doesn't work in your favor, because they are both male.

Plus, you have still written off the fact that God uses the singular also when he says he created male and female in his image.

It would be nice too if you could acknowledge that a dyadic God is your interpretation and that the text does not say that.
Oh ok I think I got it now: So God is genderless, but also I’m still wrong because God is male (but also he’s not male… I mean, well… he’s male, but also not… but also he is). God’s image is male and female, but don’t say God is a male and a female because obviously he’s a male (er… um) and when it’s saying image and that the spirits were spiritually created male and female, that doesn’t mean they’re actually male and female; no no no, spirits aren’t created male and female even though it says that. See there wasn’t two distinct spirits brought forth in creation, because permanent distinction is bad. Cuz the fact that mankind is dyadic doesn’t mean God is dyadic (because again, when it says they were male and female, it’s just straight up lying, because we very well know that intelligences don’t have a gender, so when it says mankind was created male and female, that’s not two distinct spirits, and they weren’t male and female); so I can’t conclude that God is both male and female because even though it says mankind is male and female, and the plural Gods (remember; don’t impose a female God in there damnit; that’s not what it’s saying; it’s actually the Father and the Son, not the Father and a Mother; and we know the Father and Son are male…. er, wait…) made mankind in their image (and mankind was dyadic; a male and a female), that doesn’t mean God is dyadic, with a male and female, because nowhere is the word ‘dyad’ used, and my baseline supposition was that God was genderless (but also he’s male). So when I think that it’s saying that God’s image is male and female, the only possible conclusion (other than the truth that God is genderless) is to believe that God isn’t dyadic, but rather he (er, well I mean he is a male, but also he isn’t) is a hermaphrodite (and God isn’t a hermaphrodite; he’s genderless; if God was a hermaphrodite, man would be hermaphrodite; which mankind isn’t, so mankind must be genderless even though it says they were male and female, which we all know doesn’t mean a dyad, because…). When it says the spirits were created male and female, that actually doesn’t even mean anything. Also, Adam and Eve did not leave their father and mother and cleave unto each other; that is just a misreading. Don’t assume that there’s a Mother; that is just imposing. God isn’t dyadic. Spirit is gay. Spirit is transgender. Intelligent Transgenderism is good. Intelligent Transgenderism is liberating; we are supposed to become male and female to progress to become like our gender-fluid/transgender/gender-transcendent God. I’m wrong because I’m not reading what the scriptures are actually saying.

User avatar
Shawn Henry
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4514

Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Shawn Henry »

Alexander wrote: December 1st, 2022, 12:03 am Oh ok I think I got it now: So God is genderless, but also I’m still wrong because God is male (but also he’s not male… I mean, well… he’s male, but also not… but also he is). God’s image is male and female, but don’t say God is a male and a female because obviously he’s a male (er… um) and when it’s saying image and that the spirits were spiritually created male and female, that doesn’t mean they’re actually male and female; no no no, spirits aren’t created male and female even though it says that. See there wasn’t two distinct spirits brought forth in creation, because permanent distinction is bad. Cuz the fact that mankind is dyadic doesn’t mean God is dyadic (because again, when it says they were male and female, it’s just straight up lying, because we very well know that intelligences don’t have a gender, so when it says mankind was created male and female, that’s not two distinct spirits, and they weren’t male and female); so I can’t conclude that God is both male and female because even though it says mankind is male and female, and the plural Gods (remember; don’t impose a female God in there damnit; that’s not what it’s saying; it’s actually the Father and the Son, not the Father and a Mother; and we know the Father and Son are male…. er, wait…) made mankind in their image (and mankind was dyadic; a male and a female), that doesn’t mean God is dyadic, with a male and female, because nowhere is the word ‘dyad’ used, and my baseline supposition was that God was genderless (but also he’s male). So when I think that it’s saying that God’s image is male and female, the only possible conclusion (other than the truth that God is genderless) is to believe that God isn’t dyadic, but rather he (er, well I mean he is a male, but also he isn’t) is a hermaphrodite (and God isn’t a hermaphrodite; he’s genderless; if God was a hermaphrodite, man would be hermaphrodite; which mankind isn’t, so mankind must be genderless even though it says they were male and female, which we all know doesn’t mean a dyad, because…). When it says the spirits were created male and female, that actually doesn’t even mean anything. Also, Adam and Eve did not leave their father and mother and cleave unto each other; that is just a misreading. Don’t assume that there’s a Mother; that is just imposing. God isn’t dyadic. Spirit is gay. Spirit is transgender. Intelligent Transgenderism is good. Intelligent Transgenderism is liberating; we are supposed to become male and female to progress to become like our gender-fluid/transgender/gender-transcendent God. I’m wrong because I’m not reading what the scriptures are actually saying.
I trust that was therapeutic for you. :D

When you have some evidence in scripture that there is a female God, a female angel, or a female anything in heaven, let me know. If you find a place where he says he is dyadic, let me know that too.

User avatar
Luke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10785
Location: England

Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Luke »

Shawn Henry wrote: December 1st, 2022, 12:14 am
Alexander wrote: December 1st, 2022, 12:03 am Oh ok I think I got it now: So God is genderless, but also I’m still wrong because God is male (but also he’s not male… I mean, well… he’s male, but also not… but also he is). God’s image is male and female, but don’t say God is a male and a female because obviously he’s a male (er… um) and when it’s saying image and that the spirits were spiritually created male and female, that doesn’t mean they’re actually male and female; no no no, spirits aren’t created male and female even though it says that. See there wasn’t two distinct spirits brought forth in creation, because permanent distinction is bad. Cuz the fact that mankind is dyadic doesn’t mean God is dyadic (because again, when it says they were male and female, it’s just straight up lying, because we very well know that intelligences don’t have a gender, so when it says mankind was created male and female, that’s not two distinct spirits, and they weren’t male and female); so I can’t conclude that God is both male and female because even though it says mankind is male and female, and the plural Gods (remember; don’t impose a female God in there damnit; that’s not what it’s saying; it’s actually the Father and the Son, not the Father and a Mother; and we know the Father and Son are male…. er, wait…) made mankind in their image (and mankind was dyadic; a male and a female), that doesn’t mean God is dyadic, with a male and female, because nowhere is the word ‘dyad’ used, and my baseline supposition was that God was genderless (but also he’s male). So when I think that it’s saying that God’s image is male and female, the only possible conclusion (other than the truth that God is genderless) is to believe that God isn’t dyadic, but rather he (er, well I mean he is a male, but also he isn’t) is a hermaphrodite (and God isn’t a hermaphrodite; he’s genderless; if God was a hermaphrodite, man would be hermaphrodite; which mankind isn’t, so mankind must be genderless even though it says they were male and female, which we all know doesn’t mean a dyad, because…). When it says the spirits were created male and female, that actually doesn’t even mean anything. Also, Adam and Eve did not leave their father and mother and cleave unto each other; that is just a misreading. Don’t assume that there’s a Mother; that is just imposing. God isn’t dyadic. Spirit is gay. Spirit is transgender. Intelligent Transgenderism is good. Intelligent Transgenderism is liberating; we are supposed to become male and female to progress to become like our gender-fluid/transgender/gender-transcendent God. I’m wrong because I’m not reading what the scriptures are actually saying.
I trust that was therapeutic for you. :D

When you have some evidence in scripture that there is a female God, a female angel, or a female anything in heaven, let me know. If you find a place where he says he is dyadic, let me know that too.
Joseph Smith and others saw our Mother in Heaven in vision.

User avatar
Shawn Henry
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4514

Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Shawn Henry »

Luke wrote: December 1st, 2022, 12:56 am Joseph Smith and others saw our Mother in Heaven in vision.
Obviously by giving that response you agree that there are no such scriptures, or you would have cited those instead.

There are some problems with saying Joseph saw something in vision. If we could all trust the source, we still know that visions are limited to our own understanding and typically mirror our preconceptions. The next problem is, Joseph put forth many false doctrines to the saints, whether the Lord was using him to test the saints or simply as a result of losing the fulness and the scriptures being fulfilled that the eyes of the Seers would be covered, or a combination thereof, we don't know.

A side note, it's odd to me that you deny Joseph Smith the honor of being an intercessor, just as Moses was, even despite the scriptures saying he would be like Moses. You would relegate him to a lesser role and seal that fate upon him throughout the eternities.

User avatar
SJR3t2
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2621
Contact:

Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by SJR3t2 »

Robin Hood wrote: November 27th, 2022, 8:42 am
SJR3t2 wrote: November 27th, 2022, 7:19 am
Robin Hood wrote: November 27th, 2022, 1:57 am
SJR3t2 wrote: November 26th, 2022, 8:07 pm

Our spirits are eternal and thus no mother birthing them.
Not true.
The intelligences are eternal, not the spirits.
Nope look at the post how I quote scriptures and the dictionary.
I will, but I would point out that I care not one jot what the bible dictionary says.
I don't care what the LDS / Brighamite Bible dictionary says either. I do care what the 1828 Webster's Dictionary says and what concordances say show what the underlining words behind english translation says.

User avatar
SJR3t2
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2621
Contact:

Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by SJR3t2 »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 27th, 2022, 2:06 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: November 27th, 2022, 7:17 am I actually believe we were male and female in the preexistance.
At what point do you take an intelligence without gender and give it a spirit gender and why? What meaning would a gender division have to intelligences that have no knowledge of any divisions? It would be like assigning them Republican or Democrat. They would have no idea what that means. Why would God be the author of division when his primary goal is unity?

Just as an intelligence can neither be created nor destroyed, I believe, they can't be permanently locked into a particular form or appearance. Why take away agency? Why limit your potential?
Intelligence is another word for spirit which is another word for soul.

Why take away agency of letting spirit from being a human or an animal? Questions like this are the wrong questions to be asking in my opinion.

In the first three A stanzas Abraham uses the words INTELLIGENCE, SOUL and SPIRIT interchangeably. And if you look at the 1828 Webster’s Dictionary definitions below they all share a core meaning and the definitions use words from the others showing their overlapping concept. In the last A stanza Abraham tells us how Elohim states that he, Abraham, is one of these INTELLIGENCE / SOUL / SPIRIT that YHWH sets apart as a ruler.
https://seekingyhwh.org/2022/02/28/abra ... -chiasmus/

User avatar
SJR3t2
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2621
Contact:

Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by SJR3t2 »

Alexander wrote: November 27th, 2022, 2:10 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: November 27th, 2022, 7:15 am
Alexander wrote: November 26th, 2022, 8:11 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: November 26th, 2022, 8:07 pm

Our spirits are eternal and thus no mother birthing them.
Which only refutes the assumption that spirits are birthed by sex and gestation, and doesn't refute that the of a role of Divine Mother is needed in some capacity...
ah, you have a mother because of birthing ... LDS / Brighamite church teaches we have a mother in heaven because she birthed you, contrary to the scriptures stating our spirits are ETERNAL.
Intelligence is uncreated and primordial; this is undisputed. However, intelligence is born into spirit tabernacle; to be born of spirit is to have an added or expanded capacity of light upon you, thus the intelligence which hearkened unto the voice of the Dyadic God was born into higher a spirit state, being created or organized as male or female.

In the first three A stanzas Abraham uses the words INTELLIGENCE, SOUL and SPIRIT interchangeably. And if you look at the 1828 Webster’s Dictionary definitions below they all share a core meaning and the definitions use words from the others showing their overlapping concept. In the last A stanza Abraham tells us how Elohim states that he, Abraham, is one of these INTELLIGENCE / SOUL / SPIRIT that YHWH sets apart as a ruler.
https://seekingyhwh.org/2022/02/28/abra ... -chiasmus/
I already read you post.
If you have already read my post, you ought to know how I would respond to you statement from the scriptures then.

User avatar
SJR3t2
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2621
Contact:

Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by SJR3t2 »

mcusick wrote: November 28th, 2022, 6:49 am
SJR3t2 wrote: November 27th, 2022, 7:19 am
mcusick wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:32 am
SJR3t2 wrote: November 26th, 2022, 8:07 pm Our spirits are eternal and thus no mother birthing them.
Are women simply baby incubators?
Nope, and you are really twisting what I said to get that out of what I said.
I didn't twist your words. I made explicit what was implicit: if a lack of birthing precludes a divine feminine figure, it means femininity is defined by birthing.

I don't care much for discussions of heavenly mother, so I'm not trying argue in favor of the doctrine. If anyone else believes I twisted your words, they are welcome to chime in and I will consider it. I'll admit I intended to be curt, but not dishonest.

Maybe you can make a better argument for your position? You're welcome to rephrase your statements without defining women as merely birthing units.
No you twisted my words. Like I said I never stated women as merely birthing units.

User avatar
Shawn Henry
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4514

Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Shawn Henry »

SJR3t2 wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 12:27 pm In the first three A stanzas Abraham uses the words INTELLIGENCE, SOUL and SPIRIT interchangeably. And if you look at the 1828 Webster’s Dictionary definitions below they all share a core meaning and the definitions use words from the others showing their overlapping concept. In the last A stanza Abraham tells us how Elohim states that he, Abraham, is one of these INTELLIGENCE / SOUL / SPIRIT that YHWH sets apart as a ruler.
It's almost as if Abraham wasn't familiar with the creation account, where we get the definition for living soul.

Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

We were already given the definition here of what constitutes a soul. Also, it seems quite clear Abraham shared the same belief because in Abraham 5:7 we read:

And the Gods formed man from the dust of the ground, and took his spirit (that is, the man’s spirit), and put it into him; and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

Flesh and spirit=Living Soul

I do agree that there is still interchangeability when used, but that is likely just the writer's natural tendency.

Of course, all this is completely irrelevant from the fact that all intelligences can continually become more intelligent. That's one of the primary messages of the Book.

User avatar
SJR3t2
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2621
Contact:

Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by SJR3t2 »

Shawn Henry wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 1:41 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 12:27 pm In the first three A stanzas Abraham uses the words INTELLIGENCE, SOUL and SPIRIT interchangeably. And if you look at the 1828 Webster’s Dictionary definitions below they all share a core meaning and the definitions use words from the others showing their overlapping concept. In the last A stanza Abraham tells us how Elohim states that he, Abraham, is one of these INTELLIGENCE / SOUL / SPIRIT that YHWH sets apart as a ruler.
It's almost as if Abraham wasn't familiar with the creation account, where we get the definition for living soul.

Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

We were already given the definition here of what constitutes a soul. Also, it seems quite clear Abraham shared the same belief because in Abraham 5:7 we read:

And the Gods formed man from the dust of the ground, and took his spirit (that is, the man’s spirit), and put it into him; and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

Flesh and spirit=Living Soul

I do agree that there is still interchangeability when used, but that is likely just the writer's natural tendency.

Of course, all this is completely irrelevant from the fact that all intelligences can continually become more intelligent. That's one of the primary messages of the Book.
Who's domain is the dust? Satan's. YHWH will take us out of Satan's dust and form us in His image aka Torah. Lectures on Faith 5:2 very last part teaches this also. https://seekingyhwh.org/lectures-on-faith/5th/

spirit and soul are the same thing, and the BoM shows this by applying the resurrection to both terms for the spiritual body next to the physical body.

Those who have intelligance can gain more intelligance.

User avatar
Thinker
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 12975
Location: The Universe - wherever that is.

Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Thinker »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 30th, 2022, 11:54 pm
Thinker wrote: November 30th, 2022, 4:48 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: November 26th, 2022, 9:13 pmBecause almost all of the Mormons and ex-Mormons and all in between, don't seem to believe the BoM that the Father is the Son, but it seems you do. Good on you!
How can a father be the son?
Image

Christ wasn’t Yeshua/Jesus’s last name but what he became & urged us to follow and become. He wasn’t the great exception but the great example. If we imagine him on a godly throne pedestal up a mile high - how could we possibly follow him?

Moreover, as Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑
“… the existence of a Father and Son proves the existence of a Mother.”
Wow! You put some work into that picture. Nice job!

I'm not trying to tell anyone how to interpret the BoM. I'm just saying that it is a common theme throughout the book that he is both the father and the son and pretty much everyone ignores those verses.

In 3 Nephi 1 he says: "Behold, I come unto my own, to fulfil all things which I have made known unto the children of men from the foundation of the world, and to do the will, both of the Father and of the Son—of the Father because of me, and of the Son because of my flesh."

I see this as saying that it is the flesh that makes him the son. The will of the flesh was the same as the will of his spirit, indicating that he had enough control over the flesh to subjugate it to the will of the spirit.

There is also the change in the JST where Joseph changed one verse to, no one knows that the Father is the Son (that's my paraphrase).
That’s definitely a valid way to look at it too.

Post Reply