Key indicator to avoid deception

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Thinker
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Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by Thinker »

edify wrote: November 27th, 2022, 10:07 pmThis is a description of actual/real prophets they rise up against the church and call it to repentance because the leaders are corrupted and are leading the members astray.
Good point. Generally people shoot the messenger so few want to stick his/her neck out. If Joseph Smith hadn’t questioned all the religious leaders, there would be no Mormon church, corporation - or whatever you wanna call it. Lately, I see these words by JS as more true than ever…

“I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

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Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by Thinker »

dennis wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:14 pm Joseph Smith gave a key indicator to help avoid deception, “That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.”…

1. Is the person claiming the revelation acting within the bounds of his or her respective stewardship?
2. Is the person receiving the revelation worthy to receive such?
3. Is the communication in harmony with the standard works and teachings of the prophets?
4. Does the revelation edify or instruct?
5. Does the communication build a person’s faith and strengthen commitment?
1. The beautiful thing JS brought to light that was unique was personal revelation for all!
2. When one chooses God, at least in that act of inspiration, they are chosen by God and worthy according to God.
3. “Thou shalt have no other gods,” not even standard works and teachings of the prophets.
4. Some instruction is not edifying, but helpful. Eg, Personal revelation I received “The vaccine is one of the poisons” helped save my life & my children’s. Members have been tricked & misled into thinking that any negative feeling is of the adversary, when “there must needs be opposition in all things.” Life involves negativity & yet many members drug/numb themselves up on prescription drugs so their hearts are cold and apathetic. How do you see through evil masquerading as good? Not be numbing yourself or turning a blind eye to avoid discomfort… but by following Christ in the many ways he taught to enter into the kingdom of God within. We are & have been “legally” bombarded with psychological warfare. If we don’t even know ourselves - how can we know the enemy?
  • Know the enemy, know yourself and victory is never in doubt, not in 100 battles.
    He who knows self but not the enemy will suffer 1 defeat for every victory.
    He who knows neither self nor enemy will fail in every battle.” - The Art of War
  • “Knowing your own darkness is the best method for dealing with the darknesses of other people.” - C Jung
5. Ideally, we build faith and commitment to God, nobody or nothing else, not even a powerful religious corporation. How we keep the Spirit with us is by worshipping God over praises of men.
  • "Pray most earnestly." -1Thes 3:10

Am I in apostasy from God? Apostatizing from the Catholic, Lutheran or LDS Church is breaking away from their set of dogmatic rules - which are NOT God.

innocentoldguy
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Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by innocentoldguy »

ransomme wrote: November 30th, 2022, 5:43 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 30th, 2022, 2:47 am
ransomme wrote: November 29th, 2022, 2:05 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 29th, 2022, 10:43 am

Well, if it doesn't mean enough to you to spend the time articulating/citing your point, then it really isn't worth my time listening to you.
I clearly articulated that you were wrong. You just sling out there that there is no proof, but you won't even read what's not spoonfed to you even if it's put right under your nose.
Yes, you clearly articulated that as your opinion. You also offered vague references to "back up" your claims, like "Read the D&C," but have been unable to cite specifically what you are referring to. I can't read your mind and I'm not going to read a bunch of sections while trying to guess what you mean. You are unable or unwilling to provide specifics of what you're talking about and cite them.
Ok I'll take you at your word that you are neither playing dumb or trolling. For starters:


D&C 124
28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.
32 But behold, at the end of this appointment your baptisms for your dead shall not be acceptable unto me; and if you do not these things at the end of the appointment ye shall be rejected as a church, with your dead, saith the Lord your God.
45 And if my people will hearken unto my voice, and unto the voice of my servants whom I have appointed to lead my people, behold, verily I say unto you, they shall not be moved out of their place. (But Joseph and Hyrum were removed like unto Moses, and the saints were removed also; (see also 101:93-101))
46 But if they will not hearken to my voice, nor unto the voice of these men whom I have appointed, they shall not be blest, because they pollute mine holy grounds, and mine holy ordinances, and charters, and my holy words which I give unto them.
47 And it shall come to pass that if you build a house unto my name, and do not do the things that I say, I will not perform the oath which I make unto you, neither fulfil the promises which ye expect at my hands, saith the Lord.
48 For instead of blessings, ye, by your own works, bring cursings, wrath, indignation, and judgments upon your own heads, by your follies, and by all your abominations, which you practice before me, saith the Lord.

D&C 101
99 Therefore, it is my will that my people should claim, and hold claim upon that which I have appointed unto them, though they should not be permitted to dwell thereon.
100 Nevertheless, I do not say they shall not dwell thereon; for inasmuch as they bring forth fruit and works meet for my kingdom they shall dwell thereon.
(unfortunately, they failed and were removed, did not inherit the promise land or build Zion and we continue to fail in apostasy)
101 They shall build, and another shall not inherit it; they shall plant vineyards, and they shall eat the fruit thereof. Even so. Amen.

D&C 84 - They failed to "bring forth fruit and works meet for His kingdom" were rejected as a church and were not allowed to inhabit Zion.
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written
58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.
59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

God had often sealed up the Heavens because of covetousness in the church. Said the Lord would cut his work short in righteousness and except the church receive the fullness of the scriptures they would yet fall.” - JSP, Documents Vol 2: July 1831 –January 1833, p. 85. (then see 3 Nephi 21)
“O ye wicked and ye perverse generation; ye hardened and ye stiffnecked people, how long will ye suppose that the Lord will suffer you? Yea, how long will ye suffer yourselves to be led by foolish and blind guides? Yea, how long will ye choose darkness rather than light?” (Hel. 13:29).

And without Zion we must fall, "...but in the last days, God was to call a remnant, in which was to be deliverance, as well as in Jerusalem and Zion. Now if God should give no more revelations, where will we find Zion and this remnant? The time is near when the desolation is to cover the earth, and then God will have a place for deliverance in his remnant, in Zion,... Take away the Book of Mormon and the revelations, and where is our religion? We have none; for without Zion, and a place for deliverance, we must fall;" - TotPJS p.70-71

And just like we haven't received the greater things in the Book of Mormon because of condemnation (see above D&C 84), we also never received the things that the Lord did "deign to reveal unto my church things which have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world, things that pertain to the dispensation of the fulness of times. And I will show unto my servant Joseph all things pertaining to this house, and the priesthood thereof..." (D&C 124:41-42)

We are waiting for the restoration of all things, but that won't happen until the Endtime, the Day of the Lord.
So, this is the comment I originally replied to: "The above assumes the church wasn’t condemned and &#%!@? by brother Brigham and company. True messages will correlate with the name of Christ or Crist." I said this comment was false. You said it was correct and told me to read the D&C.

Then, after days of refusing to do so, you give me this as a citation, which has nothing to do with Brigham Young? You've gone completely off the rails of understanding from your first highlight, which is talking about the great apostasy and not something that the early saints had and then the Lord took away. I cannot fathom how you think any of your commentary here refutes what I said or supports what the pigeon said. All you've proven is that you don't understand what the scriptures are talking about and are therefore drawing irrelevant conclusions from them.

1 Nephi 7:14 offers a good description of the destiny of those who reject the prophets. They will be condemned and lose the spirit. That being the case, I'd encourage you to take some time and make sure you're not falling into that devilish trap.

innocentoldguy
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Posts: 265

Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by innocentoldguy »

ransomme wrote: November 30th, 2022, 5:43 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 30th, 2022, 2:47 am
ransomme wrote: November 29th, 2022, 2:05 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 29th, 2022, 10:43 am

Well, if it doesn't mean enough to you to spend the time articulating/citing your point, then it really isn't worth my time listening to you.
I clearly articulated that you were wrong. You just sling out there that there is no proof, but you won't even read what's not spoonfed to you even if it's put right under your nose.
Yes, you clearly articulated that as your opinion. You also offered vague references to "back up" your claims, like "Read the D&C," but have been unable to cite specifically what you are referring to. I can't read your mind and I'm not going to read a bunch of sections while trying to guess what you mean. You are unable or unwilling to provide specifics of what you're talking about and cite them.
Ok I'll take you at your word that you are neither playing dumb or trolling. For starters:


D&C 124
28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.
32 But behold, at the end of this appointment your baptisms for your dead shall not be acceptable unto me; and if you do not these things at the end of the appointment ye shall be rejected as a church, with your dead, saith the Lord your God.
45 And if my people will hearken unto my voice, and unto the voice of my servants whom I have appointed to lead my people, behold, verily I say unto you, they shall not be moved out of their place. (But Joseph and Hyrum were removed like unto Moses, and the saints were removed also; (see also 101:93-101))
46 But if they will not hearken to my voice, nor unto the voice of these men whom I have appointed, they shall not be blest, because they pollute mine holy grounds, and mine holy ordinances, and charters, and my holy words which I give unto them.
47 And it shall come to pass that if you build a house unto my name, and do not do the things that I say, I will not perform the oath which I make unto you, neither fulfil the promises which ye expect at my hands, saith the Lord.
48 For instead of blessings, ye, by your own works, bring cursings, wrath, indignation, and judgments upon your own heads, by your follies, and by all your abominations, which you practice before me, saith the Lord.

D&C 101
99 Therefore, it is my will that my people should claim, and hold claim upon that which I have appointed unto them, though they should not be permitted to dwell thereon.
100 Nevertheless, I do not say they shall not dwell thereon; for inasmuch as they bring forth fruit and works meet for my kingdom they shall dwell thereon.
(unfortunately, they failed and were removed, did not inherit the promise land or build Zion and we continue to fail in apostasy)
101 They shall build, and another shall not inherit it; they shall plant vineyards, and they shall eat the fruit thereof. Even so. Amen.

D&C 84 - They failed to "bring forth fruit and works meet for His kingdom" were rejected as a church and were not allowed to inhabit Zion.
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written
58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.
59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

God had often sealed up the Heavens because of covetousness in the church. Said the Lord would cut his work short in righteousness and except the church receive the fullness of the scriptures they would yet fall.” - JSP, Documents Vol 2: July 1831 –January 1833, p. 85. (then see 3 Nephi 21)
“O ye wicked and ye perverse generation; ye hardened and ye stiffnecked people, how long will ye suppose that the Lord will suffer you? Yea, how long will ye suffer yourselves to be led by foolish and blind guides? Yea, how long will ye choose darkness rather than light?” (Hel. 13:29).

And without Zion we must fall, "...but in the last days, God was to call a remnant, in which was to be deliverance, as well as in Jerusalem and Zion. Now if God should give no more revelations, where will we find Zion and this remnant? The time is near when the desolation is to cover the earth, and then God will have a place for deliverance in his remnant, in Zion,... Take away the Book of Mormon and the revelations, and where is our religion? We have none; for without Zion, and a place for deliverance, we must fall;" - TotPJS p.70-71

And just like we haven't received the greater things in the Book of Mormon because of condemnation (see above D&C 84), we also never received the things that the Lord did "deign to reveal unto my church things which have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world, things that pertain to the dispensation of the fulness of times. And I will show unto my servant Joseph all things pertaining to this house, and the priesthood thereof..." (D&C 124:41-42)

We are waiting for the restoration of all things, but that won't happen until the Endtime, the Day of the Lord.
Also, don't cite things by adding your editorializations into the mix in a way that looks like it is part of the citation. It is deceptive.

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ransomme
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Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by ransomme »

innocentoldguy wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 6:10 pm
ransomme wrote: November 30th, 2022, 5:43 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 30th, 2022, 2:47 am
ransomme wrote: November 29th, 2022, 2:05 pm

I clearly articulated that you were wrong. You just sling out there that there is no proof, but you won't even read what's not spoonfed to you even if it's put right under your nose.
Yes, you clearly articulated that as your opinion. You also offered vague references to "back up" your claims, like "Read the D&C," but have been unable to cite specifically what you are referring to. I can't read your mind and I'm not going to read a bunch of sections while trying to guess what you mean. You are unable or unwilling to provide specifics of what you're talking about and cite them.
Ok I'll take you at your word that you are neither playing dumb or trolling. For starters:


D&C 124
28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.
32 But behold, at the end of this appointment your baptisms for your dead shall not be acceptable unto me; and if you do not these things at the end of the appointment ye shall be rejected as a church, with your dead, saith the Lord your God.
45 And if my people will hearken unto my voice, and unto the voice of my servants whom I have appointed to lead my people, behold, verily I say unto you, they shall not be moved out of their place. (But Joseph and Hyrum were removed like unto Moses, and the saints were removed also; (see also 101:93-101))
46 But if they will not hearken to my voice, nor unto the voice of these men whom I have appointed, they shall not be blest, because they pollute mine holy grounds, and mine holy ordinances, and charters, and my holy words which I give unto them.
47 And it shall come to pass that if you build a house unto my name, and do not do the things that I say, I will not perform the oath which I make unto you, neither fulfil the promises which ye expect at my hands, saith the Lord.
48 For instead of blessings, ye, by your own works, bring cursings, wrath, indignation, and judgments upon your own heads, by your follies, and by all your abominations, which you practice before me, saith the Lord.

D&C 101
99 Therefore, it is my will that my people should claim, and hold claim upon that which I have appointed unto them, though they should not be permitted to dwell thereon.
100 Nevertheless, I do not say they shall not dwell thereon; for inasmuch as they bring forth fruit and works meet for my kingdom they shall dwell thereon.
(unfortunately, they failed and were removed, did not inherit the promise land or build Zion and we continue to fail in apostasy)
101 They shall build, and another shall not inherit it; they shall plant vineyards, and they shall eat the fruit thereof. Even so. Amen.

D&C 84 - They failed to "bring forth fruit and works meet for His kingdom" were rejected as a church and were not allowed to inhabit Zion.
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written
58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.
59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

God had often sealed up the Heavens because of covetousness in the church. Said the Lord would cut his work short in righteousness and except the church receive the fullness of the scriptures they would yet fall.” - JSP, Documents Vol 2: July 1831 –January 1833, p. 85. (then see 3 Nephi 21)
“O ye wicked and ye perverse generation; ye hardened and ye stiffnecked people, how long will ye suppose that the Lord will suffer you? Yea, how long will ye suffer yourselves to be led by foolish and blind guides? Yea, how long will ye choose darkness rather than light?” (Hel. 13:29).

And without Zion we must fall, "...but in the last days, God was to call a remnant, in which was to be deliverance, as well as in Jerusalem and Zion. Now if God should give no more revelations, where will we find Zion and this remnant? The time is near when the desolation is to cover the earth, and then God will have a place for deliverance in his remnant, in Zion,... Take away the Book of Mormon and the revelations, and where is our religion? We have none; for without Zion, and a place for deliverance, we must fall;" - TotPJS p.70-71

And just like we haven't received the greater things in the Book of Mormon because of condemnation (see above D&C 84), we also never received the things that the Lord did "deign to reveal unto my church things which have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world, things that pertain to the dispensation of the fulness of times. And I will show unto my servant Joseph all things pertaining to this house, and the priesthood thereof..." (D&C 124:41-42)

We are waiting for the restoration of all things, but that won't happen until the Endtime, the Day of the Lord.
Also, don't cite things by adding your editorializations into the mix in a way that looks like it is part of the citation. It is deceptive.
My commentary is not deceptive. It's obvious what's quoted from scripture and what is my commentary. I can't help it if you were confused.

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ransomme
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Posts: 4014

Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by ransomme »

innocentoldguy wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 5:58 pm
ransomme wrote: November 30th, 2022, 5:43 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 30th, 2022, 2:47 am
ransomme wrote: November 29th, 2022, 2:05 pm

I clearly articulated that you were wrong. You just sling out there that there is no proof, but you won't even read what's not spoonfed to you even if it's put right under your nose.
Yes, you clearly articulated that as your opinion. You also offered vague references to "back up" your claims, like "Read the D&C," but have been unable to cite specifically what you are referring to. I can't read your mind and I'm not going to read a bunch of sections while trying to guess what you mean. You are unable or unwilling to provide specifics of what you're talking about and cite them.
Ok I'll take you at your word that you are neither playing dumb or trolling. For starters:


D&C 124
28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.
32 But behold, at the end of this appointment your baptisms for your dead shall not be acceptable unto me; and if you do not these things at the end of the appointment ye shall be rejected as a church, with your dead, saith the Lord your God.
45 And if my people will hearken unto my voice, and unto the voice of my servants whom I have appointed to lead my people, behold, verily I say unto you, they shall not be moved out of their place. (But Joseph and Hyrum were removed like unto Moses, and the saints were removed also; (see also 101:93-101))
46 But if they will not hearken to my voice, nor unto the voice of these men whom I have appointed, they shall not be blest, because they pollute mine holy grounds, and mine holy ordinances, and charters, and my holy words which I give unto them.
47 And it shall come to pass that if you build a house unto my name, and do not do the things that I say, I will not perform the oath which I make unto you, neither fulfil the promises which ye expect at my hands, saith the Lord.
48 For instead of blessings, ye, by your own works, bring cursings, wrath, indignation, and judgments upon your own heads, by your follies, and by all your abominations, which you practice before me, saith the Lord.

D&C 101
99 Therefore, it is my will that my people should claim, and hold claim upon that which I have appointed unto them, though they should not be permitted to dwell thereon.
100 Nevertheless, I do not say they shall not dwell thereon; for inasmuch as they bring forth fruit and works meet for my kingdom they shall dwell thereon.
(unfortunately, they failed and were removed, did not inherit the promise land or build Zion and we continue to fail in apostasy)
101 They shall build, and another shall not inherit it; they shall plant vineyards, and they shall eat the fruit thereof. Even so. Amen.

D&C 84 - They failed to "bring forth fruit and works meet for His kingdom" were rejected as a church and were not allowed to inhabit Zion.
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written
58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.
59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

God had often sealed up the Heavens because of covetousness in the church. Said the Lord would cut his work short in righteousness and except the church receive the fullness of the scriptures they would yet fall.” - JSP, Documents Vol 2: July 1831 –January 1833, p. 85. (then see 3 Nephi 21)
“O ye wicked and ye perverse generation; ye hardened and ye stiffnecked people, how long will ye suppose that the Lord will suffer you? Yea, how long will ye suffer yourselves to be led by foolish and blind guides? Yea, how long will ye choose darkness rather than light?” (Hel. 13:29).

And without Zion we must fall, "...but in the last days, God was to call a remnant, in which was to be deliverance, as well as in Jerusalem and Zion. Now if God should give no more revelations, where will we find Zion and this remnant? The time is near when the desolation is to cover the earth, and then God will have a place for deliverance in his remnant, in Zion,... Take away the Book of Mormon and the revelations, and where is our religion? We have none; for without Zion, and a place for deliverance, we must fall;" - TotPJS p.70-71

And just like we haven't received the greater things in the Book of Mormon because of condemnation (see above D&C 84), we also never received the things that the Lord did "deign to reveal unto my church things which have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world, things that pertain to the dispensation of the fulness of times. And I will show unto my servant Joseph all things pertaining to this house, and the priesthood thereof..." (D&C 124:41-42)

We are waiting for the restoration of all things, but that won't happen until the Endtime, the Day of the Lord.
So, this is the comment I originally replied to: "The above assumes the church wasn’t condemned and &#%!@? by brother Brigham and company. True messages will correlate with the name of Christ or Crist." I said this comment was false. You said it was correct and told me to read the D&C.

Then, after days of refusing to do so, you give me this as a citation, which has nothing to do with Brigham Young? You've gone completely off the rails of understanding from your first highlight, which is talking about the great apostasy and not something that the early saints had and then the Lord took away. I cannot fathom how you think any of your commentary here refutes what I said or supports what the pigeon said. All you've proven is that you don't understand what the scriptures are talking about and are therefore drawing irrelevant conclusions from them.

1 Nephi 7:14 offers a good description of the destiny of those who reject the prophets. They will be condemned and lose the spirit. That being the case, I'd encourage you to take some time and make sure you're not falling into that devilish trap.
I'm sorry that you are so confused about this conversation. Let's see if we can get back on track.

It actually started here:
innocentoldguy wrote: November 28th, 2022, 12:41 am
BeNotDeceived wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:17 pm
dennis wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:14 pm Joseph Smith gave a key indicator to help avoid deception, “That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.”
The above assumes the church wasn’t condemned and &#%!@? by brother Brigham and company. True messages will correlate with the name of Christ or Crist.
There is no evidence to suggest your position is true,...etc...
Are you not saying that BY et al were the proper successors and that the Church continued intact? That "there is no evidence" to the contrary?

Then I said that you were wrong.

After your disinterest in reading the D&C for yourself I quoted a few passages with some minor commentary. My post summarized how the fullness of the priesthood was taken away and was not restored, that the temple wasn't finished and that they, the saints, did not receive the additional things that God wanted to reveal to them in His completed House, how the Church was condemned for treating lightly the covenant of the BoM and never received the greater portion of the BoM, how the Church's failure to abide in the instructions, and commandments that it was given resulted n the Church being rejected, having Joseph, Hyrum and ultimately the whole Church were removed from their places, how the Church was offered Zion but failed to provide the required fruits and therefore were kept from Zion so they wouldn't pollute it.

Simply put it's actually you that has no evidence of your position, that the Church is no longer under condemnation, or continued in God's good graces after Joseph and Hyrum were murdered.

Is that clear enough for you?

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SJR3t2
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Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by SJR3t2 »

a very important key to avoid deception is to know the law.
Hosea 4:6 King James Version (KJV)
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee...."
https://seekingyhwh.org/2022/10/05/all- ... o-chiasmi/

ישראל1
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Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by ישראל1 »

dennis wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:14 pm Joseph Smith gave a key indicator to help avoid deception, “That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.”

Robert Millet proposed five questions that a person might ask to determine if something is false.

1. Is the person claiming the revelation acting within the bounds of his or her respective stewardship? There is a specific pattern that the Lord uses for revelation, Brother Millet said. He asked the audience if they could imagine if everyone received revelation for any part of the Church. It would be total chaos, he said. He then quoted Joseph Smith: “It is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instructions for those in authority, higher than themselves.”

2. Is the person receiving the revelation worthy to receive such?
As a reference Brother Millet cited Doctrine and Covenants 52:14–15: “And again, I will give unto you a pattern in all things, that ye may not be deceived; for Satan is abroad in the land, and he goeth forth deceiving the nations—wherefore he that prayeth, whose spirit is contrite, the same is accepted of me if he obey mine ordinances.”

3. Is the communication in harmony with the standard works and teachings of the prophets?
Leave the exceptions to the prophets, Brother Millet counseled. “Elder [Bruce R.] McConkie taught to stay within the mainstream of the Church,” said Brother Millet. He advised class members to watch out for new interpretations of scripture or people claiming that following something outside the mainstream of the Church brings deeper spirituality.

4. Does the revelation edify or instruct?
Is it consistent with the dignity that ought to be associated with revelation from God? God does not work against Himself, said Brother Millet.

5. Does the communication build a person’s faith and strengthen commitment?
If what a person is claiming weakens faith in Christ or resolve to follow the leaders of the Church or a desire to do what is right, it is not of God, said Brother Millet.
I know, in my personal life, when I am close to the Lord and am living worthy of the Spirit, I do not judge a soul (I believe Joseph would call this “condemning others”).

I have zero inclination to have a thought that would put down another in any way or form. Whether it is a stranger on the street, celebrity in the news, or a religious leader at any level of church service, or literally anyone.

However, the moment a thought of judgment enters my mind which casts a suspicious thought upon another’s actions, appearance, behavior, dressing, speech, etc., I know immediately I am beginning to deviate from having the mind and will of Christ.

It seems to be an early alert system for me that works, at least at this moment in my life. For what it’s worth. Cheers!

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BeNotDeceived
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Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by BeNotDeceived »

ransomme wrote: December 3rd, 2022, 4:39 am
innocentoldguy wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 5:58 pm
ransomme wrote: November 30th, 2022, 5:43 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 30th, 2022, 2:47 am

Yes, you clearly articulated that as your opinion. You also offered vague references to "back up" your claims, like "Read the D&C," but have been unable to cite specifically what you are referring to. I can't read your mind and I'm not going to read a bunch of sections while trying to guess what you mean. You are unable or unwilling to provide specifics of what you're talking about and cite them.
Ok I'll take you at your word that you are neither playing dumb or trolling. For starters:


D&C 124
28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.
32 But behold, at the end of this appointment your baptisms for your dead shall not be acceptable unto me; and if you do not these things at the end of the appointment ye shall be rejected as a church, with your dead, saith the Lord your God.
45 And if my people will hearken unto my voice, and unto the voice of my servants whom I have appointed to lead my people, behold, verily I say unto you, they shall not be moved out of their place. (But Joseph and Hyrum were removed like unto Moses, and the saints were removed also; (see also 101:93-101))
46 But if they will not hearken to my voice, nor unto the voice of these men whom I have appointed, they shall not be blest, because they pollute mine holy grounds, and mine holy ordinances, and charters, and my holy words which I give unto them.
47 And it shall come to pass that if you build a house unto my name, and do not do the things that I say, I will not perform the oath which I make unto you, neither fulfil the promises which ye expect at my hands, saith the Lord.
48 For instead of blessings, ye, by your own works, bring cursings, wrath, indignation, and judgments upon your own heads, by your follies, and by all your abominations, which you practice before me, saith the Lord.

D&C 101
99 Therefore, it is my will that my people should claim, and hold claim upon that which I have appointed unto them, though they should not be permitted to dwell thereon.
100 Nevertheless, I do not say they shall not dwell thereon; for inasmuch as they bring forth fruit and works meet for my kingdom they shall dwell thereon.
(unfortunately, they failed and were removed, did not inherit the promise land or build Zion and we continue to fail in apostasy)
101 They shall build, and another shall not inherit it; they shall plant vineyards, and they shall eat the fruit thereof. Even so. Amen.

D&C 84 - They failed to "bring forth fruit and works meet for His kingdom" were rejected as a church and were not allowed to inhabit Zion.
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written
58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.
59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

God had often sealed up the Heavens because of covetousness in the church. Said the Lord would cut his work short in righteousness and except the church receive the fullness of the scriptures they would yet fall.” - JSP, Documents Vol 2: July 1831 –January 1833, p. 85. (then see 3 Nephi 21)
“O ye wicked and ye perverse generation; ye hardened and ye stiffnecked people, how long will ye suppose that the Lord will suffer you? Yea, how long will ye suffer yourselves to be led by foolish and blind guides? Yea, how long will ye choose darkness rather than light?” (Hel. 13:29).

And without Zion we must fall, "...but in the last days, God was to call a remnant, in which was to be deliverance, as well as in Jerusalem and Zion. Now if God should give no more revelations, where will we find Zion and this remnant? The time is near when the desolation is to cover the earth, and then God will have a place for deliverance in his remnant, in Zion,... Take away the Book of Mormon and the revelations, and where is our religion? We have none; for without Zion, and a place for deliverance, we must fall;" - TotPJS p.70-71

And just like we haven't received the greater things in the Book of Mormon because of condemnation (see above D&C 84), we also never received the things that the Lord did "deign to reveal unto my church things which have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world, things that pertain to the dispensation of the fulness of times. And I will show unto my servant Joseph all things pertaining to this house, and the priesthood thereof..." (D&C 124:41-42)

We are waiting for the restoration of all things, but that won't happen until the Endtime, the Day of the Lord.
So, this is the comment I originally replied to: "The above assumes the church wasn’t condemned and &#%!@? by brother Brigham and company. True messages will correlate with the name of Christ or Crist." I said this comment was false. You said it was correct and told me to read the D&C.

Then, after days of refusing to do so, you give me this as a citation, which has nothing to do with Brigham Young? You've gone completely off the rails of understanding from your first highlight, which is talking about the great apostasy and not something that the early saints had and then the Lord took away. I cannot fathom how you think any of your commentary here refutes what I said or supports what the pigeon said. All you've proven is that you don't understand what the scriptures are talking about and are therefore drawing irrelevant conclusions from them.

1 Nephi 7:14 offers a good description of the destiny of those who reject the prophets. They will be condemned and lose the spirit. That being the case, I'd encourage you to take some time and make sure you're not falling into that devilish trap.
I'm sorry that you are so confused about this conversation. Let's see if we can get back on track.

It actually started here:
innocentoldguy wrote: November 28th, 2022, 12:41 am
BeNotDeceived wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:17 pm
dennis wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:14 pm Joseph Smith gave a key indicator to help avoid deception, “That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.”
The above assumes the church wasn’t condemned and &#%!@? by brother Brigham and company. True messages will correlate with the name of Christ or Crist.
There is no evidence to suggest your position is true,...etc...
Are you not saying that BY et al were the proper successors and that the Church continued intact? That "there is no evidence" to the contrary?

Then I said that you were wrong.

After your disinterest in reading the D&C for yourself I quoted a few passages with some minor commentary. My post summarized how the fullness of the priesthood was taken away and was not restored, that the temple wasn't finished and that they, the saints, did not receive the additional things that God wanted to reveal to them in His completed House, how the Church was condemned for treating lightly the covenant of the BoM and never received the greater portion of the BoM, how the Church's failure to abide in the instructions, and commandments that it was given resulted n the Church being rejected, having Joseph, Hyrum and ultimately the whole Church were removed from their places, how the Church was offered Zion but failed to provide the required fruits and therefore were kept from Zion so they wouldn't pollute it.

Simply put it's actually you that has no evidence of your position, that the Church is no longer under condemnation, or continued in God's good graces after Joseph and Hyrum were murdered.

Is that clear enough for you?
Likely no response will be forthcoming.

The word filter received an update. :?
https://thewordcounter.com/meaning-of-&#%!@?/ wrote: What does the word &#%!@? mean?
According to Urban Dictionary, the word &#%!@? means getting taken advantage of or defied knowingly by a group of enemies or one malicious enemy. The term &#%!@? can be used to refer to a fetish …
The link goes to ten four, as in 10-4 good buddy. 8-)

::##::## may be a better substitution. :lol:

Anyways the word has more than one definition, but like the name Lucifer and the Swastika; negative meaning wipes out positive usage.

What word(s) best describe what caused said condemnation?

User avatar
ransomme
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4014

Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by ransomme »

BeNotDeceived wrote: December 4th, 2022, 1:46 am
ransomme wrote: December 3rd, 2022, 4:39 am
innocentoldguy wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 5:58 pm
ransomme wrote: November 30th, 2022, 5:43 pm

Ok I'll take you at your word that you are neither playing dumb or trolling. For starters:


D&C 124
28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.
32 But behold, at the end of this appointment your baptisms for your dead shall not be acceptable unto me; and if you do not these things at the end of the appointment ye shall be rejected as a church, with your dead, saith the Lord your God.
45 And if my people will hearken unto my voice, and unto the voice of my servants whom I have appointed to lead my people, behold, verily I say unto you, they shall not be moved out of their place. (But Joseph and Hyrum were removed like unto Moses, and the saints were removed also; (see also 101:93-101))
46 But if they will not hearken to my voice, nor unto the voice of these men whom I have appointed, they shall not be blest, because they pollute mine holy grounds, and mine holy ordinances, and charters, and my holy words which I give unto them.
47 And it shall come to pass that if you build a house unto my name, and do not do the things that I say, I will not perform the oath which I make unto you, neither fulfil the promises which ye expect at my hands, saith the Lord.
48 For instead of blessings, ye, by your own works, bring cursings, wrath, indignation, and judgments upon your own heads, by your follies, and by all your abominations, which you practice before me, saith the Lord.

D&C 101
99 Therefore, it is my will that my people should claim, and hold claim upon that which I have appointed unto them, though they should not be permitted to dwell thereon.
100 Nevertheless, I do not say they shall not dwell thereon; for inasmuch as they bring forth fruit and works meet for my kingdom they shall dwell thereon.
(unfortunately, they failed and were removed, did not inherit the promise land or build Zion and we continue to fail in apostasy)
101 They shall build, and another shall not inherit it; they shall plant vineyards, and they shall eat the fruit thereof. Even so. Amen.

D&C 84 - They failed to "bring forth fruit and works meet for His kingdom" were rejected as a church and were not allowed to inhabit Zion.
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written
58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.
59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

God had often sealed up the Heavens because of covetousness in the church. Said the Lord would cut his work short in righteousness and except the church receive the fullness of the scriptures they would yet fall.” - JSP, Documents Vol 2: July 1831 –January 1833, p. 85. (then see 3 Nephi 21)
“O ye wicked and ye perverse generation; ye hardened and ye stiffnecked people, how long will ye suppose that the Lord will suffer you? Yea, how long will ye suffer yourselves to be led by foolish and blind guides? Yea, how long will ye choose darkness rather than light?” (Hel. 13:29).

And without Zion we must fall, "...but in the last days, God was to call a remnant, in which was to be deliverance, as well as in Jerusalem and Zion. Now if God should give no more revelations, where will we find Zion and this remnant? The time is near when the desolation is to cover the earth, and then God will have a place for deliverance in his remnant, in Zion,... Take away the Book of Mormon and the revelations, and where is our religion? We have none; for without Zion, and a place for deliverance, we must fall;" - TotPJS p.70-71

And just like we haven't received the greater things in the Book of Mormon because of condemnation (see above D&C 84), we also never received the things that the Lord did "deign to reveal unto my church things which have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world, things that pertain to the dispensation of the fulness of times. And I will show unto my servant Joseph all things pertaining to this house, and the priesthood thereof..." (D&C 124:41-42)

We are waiting for the restoration of all things, but that won't happen until the Endtime, the Day of the Lord.
So, this is the comment I originally replied to: "The above assumes the church wasn’t condemned and &#%!@? by brother Brigham and company. True messages will correlate with the name of Christ or Crist." I said this comment was false. You said it was correct and told me to read the D&C.

Then, after days of refusing to do so, you give me this as a citation, which has nothing to do with Brigham Young? You've gone completely off the rails of understanding from your first highlight, which is talking about the great apostasy and not something that the early saints had and then the Lord took away. I cannot fathom how you think any of your commentary here refutes what I said or supports what the pigeon said. All you've proven is that you don't understand what the scriptures are talking about and are therefore drawing irrelevant conclusions from them.

1 Nephi 7:14 offers a good description of the destiny of those who reject the prophets. They will be condemned and lose the spirit. That being the case, I'd encourage you to take some time and make sure you're not falling into that devilish trap.
I'm sorry that you are so confused about this conversation. Let's see if we can get back on track.

It actually started here:
innocentoldguy wrote: November 28th, 2022, 12:41 am
BeNotDeceived wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:17 pm

The above assumes the church wasn’t condemned and &#%!@? by brother Brigham and company. True messages will correlate with the name of Christ or Crist.
There is no evidence to suggest your position is true,...etc...
Are you not saying that BY et al were the proper successors and that the Church continued intact? That "there is no evidence" to the contrary?

Then I said that you were wrong.

After your disinterest in reading the D&C for yourself I quoted a few passages with some minor commentary. My post summarized how the fullness of the priesthood was taken away and was not restored, that the temple wasn't finished and that they, the saints, did not receive the additional things that God wanted to reveal to them in His completed House, how the Church was condemned for treating lightly the covenant of the BoM and never received the greater portion of the BoM, how the Church's failure to abide in the instructions, and commandments that it was given resulted n the Church being rejected, having Joseph, Hyrum and ultimately the whole Church were removed from their places, how the Church was offered Zion but failed to provide the required fruits and therefore were kept from Zion so they wouldn't pollute it.

Simply put it's actually you that has no evidence of your position, that the Church is no longer under condemnation, or continued in God's good graces after Joseph and Hyrum were murdered.

Is that clear enough for you?
Likely no response will be forthcoming.

The word filter received an update. :?
https://thewordcounter.com/meaning-of-&#%!@?/ wrote: What does the word &#%!@? mean?
According to Urban Dictionary, the word &#%!@? means getting taken advantage of or defied knowingly by a group of enemies or one malicious enemy. The term &#%!@? can be used to refer to a fetish …
The link goes to ten four, as in 10-4 good buddy. 8-)

::##::## may be a better substitution. :lol:

Anyways the word has more than one definition, but like the name Lucifer and the Swastika; negative meaning wipes out positive usage.

What word(s) best describe what caused said condemnation?
Unbelief
Prostitution (scriptural sense like Israel backsliding, being a harlot...)
Idolatry
Not receiving

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Jonesy
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Posts: 1530
Contact:

Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by Jonesy »

investigator wrote: November 28th, 2022, 7:39 am
dennis wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:14 pm Joseph Smith gave a key indicator to help avoid deception, “That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.”
Here we go again with quotes falsely attributed to Joseph Smith...
This particular quote is cited as follows:

History of the Church, 3:385; from a discourse given by Joseph Smith on July 2, 1839, in Montrose, Iowa; reported by Wilford Woodruff and Willard Richards.

Therefore, this quote is cited from three sources:
History of the Church by B.H. Roberts;
Wilford Woodruff
Willard Richards

The quote does indeed appear in Source 1, History of the Church, but that's not the original source. History of the Church simply lifted the quote from the other two sources, as follows:

First is Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, where we find the lengthy notes Woodruff took during the meeting in question. Trouble is, Woodruff's Journal completely omits this quote, though it directly (and without interruption) supplies the rest of the sermon used in History of the Church.

The other source is Willard Richards' Pocket Companion, which does contain this quote.

OK, so got that so far? Woodruff omits this paragraph from the sermon. Richards has this paragraph in the middle of the sermon. Woodruff, no. Richards, yes.

Woodruff, who was present at the meeting in question, is considered the most reliable source because he recorded the notes of the meeting while in attendance. But this quote does not appear in that record. The sermon before and after this quote appears there uninterrupted, but the quoted paragraph is completely absent.

Richards' Pocket Companion is actually a collection of material Willard Richards copied from other sources. Therefore, though this material appears there, Richards was not actually present when Joseph gave this sermon, and Richards copied the material from elsewhere, most likely Wilford Woodruff’s journal. As to how the quote in question got into Richards' Pocket Companion while NOT appearing in the original record is a mystery. Nobody knows where it came from. It is therefore hearsay and not a historical record.

We are left to wonder where Richards obtained the quote and why he stuck it in the middle of a sermon he didn’t hear Joseph give. There is no original source that contains this quotation, and Richards was on a mission in England when Joseph was supposed to have said it.

The quote's dubious provenance is not helped by its doctrinal difficulties. For example, scripture is replete with true prophets, called of God, who did indeed "rise up to condemn others, finding fault with the church, saying they are out of the way." Some obvious examples are as follows:
Noah
Abraham
Moses
Lehi
Jacob
Benjamin
Abinadi
Alma the Younger
Samuel the Lamanite
John the Baptist
Jesus Christ
Joseph Smith

In fact, you can pretty much summarize the mission of any true prophet as calling people to repentance. (D&C 11:9) How is this not "condemn[ing] others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way?"

Therefore, since Joseph Smith himself was "on the high road to apostasy" if this quote were true, it is utterly preposterous that Joseph Smith ever said this. Nobody quite knows where this quote came from, but it wasn't Joseph Smith.
https://www.totheremnant.com/2014/07/hi ... art-3.html
It could still be a legitimate quote.

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BeNotDeceived
Agent38
Posts: 8960
Location: Tralfamadore
Contact:

Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by BeNotDeceived »

ransomme wrote: December 4th, 2022, 2:05 am
BeNotDeceived wrote: December 4th, 2022, 1:46 am
ransomme wrote: December 3rd, 2022, 4:39 am
innocentoldguy wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 5:58 pm

So, this is the comment I originally replied to: "The above assumes the church wasn’t condemned and &#%!@? by brother Brigham and company. True messages will correlate with the name of Christ or Crist." I said this comment was false. You said it was correct and told me to read the D&C.

Then, after days of refusing to do so, you give me this as a citation, which has nothing to do with Brigham Young? You've gone completely off the rails of understanding from your first highlight, which is talking about the great apostasy and not something that the early saints had and then the Lord took away. I cannot fathom how you think any of your commentary here refutes what I said or supports what the pigeon said. All you've proven is that you don't understand what the scriptures are talking about and are therefore drawing irrelevant conclusions from them.

1 Nephi 7:14 offers a good description of the destiny of those who reject the prophets. They will be condemned and lose the spirit. That being the case, I'd encourage you to take some time and make sure you're not falling into that devilish trap.
I'm sorry that you are so confused about this conversation. Let's see if we can get back on track.

It actually started here:
innocentoldguy wrote: November 28th, 2022, 12:41 am

There is no evidence to suggest your position is true,...etc...
Are you not saying that BY et al were the proper successors and that the Church continued intact? That "there is no evidence" to the contrary?

Then I said that you were wrong.

After your disinterest in reading the D&C for yourself I quoted a few passages with some minor commentary. My post summarized how the fullness of the priesthood was taken away and was not restored, that the temple wasn't finished and that they, the saints, did not receive the additional things that God wanted to reveal to them in His completed House, how the Church was condemned for treating lightly the covenant of the BoM and never received the greater portion of the BoM, how the Church's failure to abide in the instructions, and commandments that it was given resulted n the Church being rejected, having Joseph, Hyrum and ultimately the whole Church were removed from their places, how the Church was offered Zion but failed to provide the required fruits and therefore were kept from Zion so they wouldn't pollute it.

Simply put it's actually you that has no evidence of your position, that the Church is no longer under condemnation, or continued in God's good graces after Joseph and Hyrum were murdered.

Is that clear enough for you?
Likely no response will be forthcoming.

The word filter received an update. :?
https://thewordcounter.com/meaning-of-&#%!@?/ wrote: What does the word &#%!@? mean?
According to Urban Dictionary, the word &#%!@? means getting taken advantage of or defied knowingly by a group of enemies or one malicious enemy. The term &#%!@? can be used to refer to a fetish …
The link goes to ten four, as in 10-4 good buddy. 8-)

::##::## may be a better substitution. :lol:

Anyways the word has more than one definition, but like the name Lucifer and the Swastika; negative meaning wipes out positive usage.

What word(s) best describe what caused said condemnation?
Unbelief
Prostitution (scriptural sense like Israel backsliding, being a harlot...)
Idolatry
Not receiving
As predicted, no response was forthcoming. :lol:

Reminds me of Taki saying he isn’t shutting his mouth, but was then too “busy” to continue the conversation.
Image
https://www.godlikeproductions.com/foru ... 313243/pg1

User avatar
ransomme
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4014

Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by ransomme »

BeNotDeceived wrote: December 19th, 2022, 3:02 am
ransomme wrote: December 4th, 2022, 2:05 am
BeNotDeceived wrote: December 4th, 2022, 1:46 am
ransomme wrote: December 3rd, 2022, 4:39 am

I'm sorry that you are so confused about this conversation. Let's see if we can get back on track.

It actually started here:


Are you not saying that BY et al were the proper successors and that the Church continued intact? That "there is no evidence" to the contrary?

Then I said that you were wrong.

After your disinterest in reading the D&C for yourself I quoted a few passages with some minor commentary. My post summarized how the fullness of the priesthood was taken away and was not restored, that the temple wasn't finished and that they, the saints, did not receive the additional things that God wanted to reveal to them in His completed House, how the Church was condemned for treating lightly the covenant of the BoM and never received the greater portion of the BoM, how the Church's failure to abide in the instructions, and commandments that it was given resulted n the Church being rejected, having Joseph, Hyrum and ultimately the whole Church were removed from their places, how the Church was offered Zion but failed to provide the required fruits and therefore were kept from Zion so they wouldn't pollute it.

Simply put it's actually you that has no evidence of your position, that the Church is no longer under condemnation, or continued in God's good graces after Joseph and Hyrum were murdered.

Is that clear enough for you?
Likely no response will be forthcoming.

The word filter received an update. :?
https://thewordcounter.com/meaning-of-&#%!@?/ wrote: What does the word &#%!@? mean?
According to Urban Dictionary, the word &#%!@? means getting taken advantage of or defied knowingly by a group of enemies or one malicious enemy. The term &#%!@? can be used to refer to a fetish …
The link goes to ten four, as in 10-4 good buddy. 8-)

::##::## may be a better substitution. :lol:

Anyways the word has more than one definition, but like the name Lucifer and the Swastika; negative meaning wipes out positive usage.

What word(s) best describe what caused said condemnation?
Unbelief
Prostitution (scriptural sense like Israel backsliding, being a harlot...)
Idolatry
Not receiving
As predicted, no response was forthcoming. :lol:

Reminds me of Taki saying he isn’t shutting his mouth, but was then too “busy” to continue the conversation.
Image
https://www.godlikeproductions.com/foru ... 313243/pg1
10-4, I didn't get to the answer to your specific question/riddle, however I did reply

Seeker144k
captain of 100
Posts: 337

Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by Seeker144k »

dennis wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:14 pm Joseph Smith gave a key indicator to help avoid deception, “That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.”
Oh boy. I just wrote a letter to a missionary in response to a talk he sent me about this. There is so much false information in this post or the quotes provided in this post and I can show it clearly. Let's take them on one at a time.
Robert Millet proposed five questions that a person might ask to determine if something is false.

1. Is the person claiming the revelation acting within the bounds of his or her respective stewardship? There is a specific pattern that the Lord uses for revelation, Brother Millet said. He asked the audience if they could imagine if everyone received revelation for any part of the Church. It would be total chaos, he said. He then quoted Joseph Smith: “It is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instructions for those in authority, higher than themselves.”
You can receive revelation about anything you want, but having the revelation does not mean that you have the power to do something about it. The scripture used to support the opinion presented in this quote D&C 28:2.
D&C 28
2 But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee, no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses.
The Holy Ghost is the highest spiritual authority, even higher than the President of the Church, even higher that Jesus Christ and even higher than God the Father in that Jesus Christ and God the Father both tell us that we know what they say is right because it is witnessed by the spirit. This is hard for some people to comprehend or accept, but it is clearly taught in the scriptures by Jesus Christ himself. Jesus said that if you commit blasphemy or speak evil against him, (the son of Man), if can be forgiven, but if we commit blasphemy or speak evil against the Holy Ghost, it is not forgivable.
Matt. 12
31 ¶ Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
The Holy Ghost takes a special place in our lives as the witness of truth even when Jesus Christ or God or anyone else is speaking to us. It is also the only being who is charged with "show us all things that we should do". No other person or being has that charge nor have we been told to give that honor in our lives.

So, if the Holy Ghost tells you to do something, or say something, then it has given you the spiritual authority and power to do so.
1 Nephi 10
22 And the Holy Ghost giveth authority that I should speak these things, and deny them not.
It's spiritual authority and power trumps all spiritual authority in the church, including the scriptures, and the prophets and the president of the church. But, it does not make policies for the church. The Holy Ghost does not have physical authority to write church policies or write church commandments that become binding on the church. Neither does Jesus Christ or God. Only the President of the church can do that. We hope that if Jesus instructs him to do something, he will do it, but we rely on the President of the church to be able to talk to God and trust he will implement the policies God wants. Ultimately it doesn't matter what the church does.

That doesn't mean that people can't receive revelations for the church or that apply to the whole church, it means that if if they do have a revelation or a commandment for the church by the spirit, they can share it and reveal it, but they cannot enforce it on the church and make it a policy, law, rule for the church. This was the position that Oliver Cowdery was in when Joseph the revelation. He could receive and deliver revelations by the spirit, but he couldn't enforce the revelations on the church.
D&C 28
1 Behold, I say unto thee, Oliver, that it shall be given unto thee that thou shalt be heard by the church in all things whatsoever thou shalt teach them by the Comforter, concerning the revelations and commandments which I have given.
2 But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee, no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses.
3 And thou shalt be obedient unto the things which I shall give unto him, even as Aaron, to declare faithfully the commandments and the revelations, with power and authority unto the church.
4 And if thou art led at any time by the Comforter to speak or teach, or at all times by the way of commandment unto the church, thou mayest do it.
5 But thou shalt not write by way of commandment, but by wisdom;
6 And thou shalt not command him who is at thy head, and at the head of the church;
7 For I have given him the keys of the mysteries, and the revelations which are sealed, until I shall appoint unto them another in his stead.
8 And now, behold, I say unto you that you shall go unto the Lamanites and preach my gospel unto them; and inasmuch as they receive thy teachings thou shalt cause my church to be established among them; and thou shalt have revelations, but write them not by way of commandment.
Ok, so let's look at a few examples from the scriptures where lay members were given revelations for the entire church that did not come through the leadership of the church even when the church leadership was righteous and had the spirit. It actually has happened A LOT.

The first example is Samuel.

Samuel was working for/living with Eli who was the High Priest over the all Israel. Eli had prophesied to Samuel's mother that even though she was barren, she would be blessed with a child. Samuel was the child Eli prophesied about. When Samuel was about 11 years old, he was living with Eli, who, again, was the High Priest over Israel and a righteous prophet. Even though Eli was a true prophet and leader of the church, the Lord called to Samuel directly and bypassed Eli entirely. It is notable that while Eli was a righteous high priest, the Lord did not call Samuel through Eli rather the Lord called to Samuel directly. Eli didn't even know the Lord was going to do this. Samuel didn't even know the Lord. But the Lord still called to him directly and bypassed Eli. After the Lord called to Samuel several times and Samuel came to Eli thinking that it was Eli who called to him, Eli figured it out what was happening and instructed Samuel to respond to the Lord and believed all that the Lord said to Samuel. Then the Lord gave Samuel a revelation about all of Israel. This was clearly outside his physical stewardship, he was only 11 and held no significant callings over Israel. The Lord revealed to Samuel things that He had not yet told Eli, the rightful steward of Israel who again was a true prophet who prophesied of Samuel's birth. Eli then asked Samuel to tell him everything the Lord revealed to him. Then it became known that the Lord had called Samuel to be a prophet over Israel.
7 Now Samuel did not yet know the Lord, neither was the word of the Lord yet revealed unto him.

8 And the Lord called Samuel again the third time. And he arose and went to Eli, and said, Here am I; for thou didst call me. And Eli perceived that the Lord had called the child.
9 Therefore Eli said unto Samuel, Go, lie down: and it shall be, if he call thee, that thou shalt say, Speak, Lord; for thy servant heareth. So Samuel went and lay down in his place.
10 And the Lord came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.
11 ¶ And the Lord said to Samuel, Behold, I will do a thing in Israel, at which both the ears of every one that heareth it shall tingle.

18 And Samuel told him (Eli) every whit, and hid nothing from him. And he said, It is the Lord: let him do what seemeth him good.
19 ¶ And Samuel grew, and the Lord was with him, and did let none of his words fall to the ground.
20 And all Israel from Dan even to Beer-sheba knew that Samuel was established to be a prophet of the Lord. – 1 Samuel 3:7-20
The Lord told Samuel what he was going to do "in Israel" which is like receiving a revelation over the entire church. Again, he was 11 and didn't have stewardship over the church. After Samuel talked with the Lord, Eli who did have stewardship over Israel asked him what the Lord said because Eli was completely in the dark even though he was the Prophet and a righteous leader of the church. This is how the Lord works, over and over and over throughout the scriptures.

I really like this example, because we see all the criteria in play that most people use to justify other experiences. For example, people might say, well the church leadership was corrupt and wicked, so the Lord had to come to a lay member. That happens a lot, but not in this example. Eli was a righteous man and supported the Lord going to Samuel. Eli was also a true prophet who prophesied for the Lord. He wasn't wicked or corrupt. Another thing people say is the distance was too far to travel anciently, so the Lord bypassed his leaders because it wasn't reasonable to travel that far. Again, not in this example. Eli was within walking distance and Samuel went to him tree times that night. The Lord still bypassed Eli to reveal what he would do to Israel to Samuel. There is no justification for this story that doesn't apply today. This is how the Lord works and has always worked. There are too many examples to list them all, but here is another one.

Amos
As a missionary, I quoted Amos for why we need prophets saying,
7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. – Amos 3:7
Amos was one of these prophets who was called by God to prophesy to the people. By studying Amos, we can learn a number of important points regarding how the Lord calls prophets. Once we see how the Lord called Amos, we can see that he follows the same pattern throughout the scriptures as he calls other prophets.

Amos was not a prophet or a prophets son or in the church leadership. He had no claim to authority or leadership among the Children of Israel. God called him while he was a shepherd. He was called by revelation from the Lord directly, not from a man, church or set of men.
14 ¶ Then answered Amos, and said to Amaziah, I was no prophet, neither was I a prophet’s son; but I was an herdman, and a gatherer of sycomore fruit:
15 And the Lord took me as I followed the flock, and the Lord said unto me, Go, prophesy unto my people Israel. – Amos 7:14-15
Amos had no stewardship over Israel and was keen to point that out. But, the Lord called him directly, not through the church or other prophet. He lived in the kingdom of Judah but preached in the northern kingdom of Israel, outside any stewardship he could have claimed. Here again the Lord is giving revelations and commandments to someone about people outside of their stewardship and telling them to prophecy to them. In doing so, the Lord makes them stewards, or as Nephi said, the Holy Ghost giveth authority that I should speak these things

If you look at most of the prophets in the Bible and Book of Mormon, they receive revelations and commandments for people they are not over.

Jeremiah
Also called by the Lord directly through personal revelation and told what to say to the entire church event though he didn't have authority over the church. Jeremiah was the son of the righteous High Priest Hilkiah who did have authority over the church:
4 Then the word of the Lord came unto me (Jeremiah), saying,
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
6 Then said I, Ah, Lord God! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child.
7 ¶ But the Lord said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak. – Jeremiah 1:4-7
While the prophet Jeremiah was preaching, many other prophets were called by God to preach repentance to Israel including Lehi:
1 Nephi 1
4 For it came to pass in the commencement of the first year of the reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah, (my father, Lehi, having dwelt at Jerusalem in all his days); and in that same year there came many prophets, prophesying unto the people that they must repent, or the great city Jerusalemmust be destroyed.
Here's how Lehi who had no authority was given a revelation for all of Israel:
Lehi lived in Jerusalem during the time of Jeremiah when many prophets had been called of God. He was influenced by these prophets and prayed to God on behalf of the people. His prayer resulted in a series of visions in which he saw God and understood the Lord's judgments against Jerusalem. As a result of these visions, Lehi was called by God to prophesy with all the other prophets. he didn't have stewardship over the people he prophesied to.
18 Therefore, I would that ye should know, that after the Lord had shown so many marvelous things unto my father, Lehi, yea, concerning the destruction of Jerusalem, behold he went forth among the people, and began to prophesy and to declare unto them concerning the things which he had both seen and heard. – 1 Nephi 1:18
It important to note that even though Jeremiah’s father Hilkiah was the High Priest over the church and is believed to have been a righteous man, he did not call his son Jeremiah, Lehi or any of the other prophets of his day. Each of them was called by God directly, independent of the priesthood and church organization. They were each given revelations outside of their stewardship and they preached by the spirit without the church's permission, authority, or sanction. They did exactly what the church today says the Lord does not support. But the Lord did support it and has always supported it.

Other examples include Jesus Christ, Moses, King Benjamin, Jonah, Simeon and Anna, Samuel the Lamanite, Alma, Mosiah, etc. All of these people and many more were called by God directly and given revelations about people they did not have earthly recognized authority over.

Also, the 144,000 are more examples of people who are authorized to act and receive revelation outside of and independent of the church leadership. They get their authority from the angels and not through the church or Joseph Smith's priesthood line of authority.
D&C 77
11 Q. What are we to understand by sealing the one hundred and forty-four thousand, out of all the tribes of Israel—twelve thousand out of every tribe?
A. We are to understand that those who are sealed are high priests, ordained unto the holy order of God, to administer the everlasting gospel; for they are they who are ordained out of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, by the angels to whom is given power over the nations of the earth, to bring as many as will come to the church of the Firstborn.
The 144,000 do not operate under the direction of the church. They do not report to the church. They report to their line of authority which goes to the angels who ordained them who have power over the nations of the earth. They even preach to the church and church members as they bring as many as will come to the church of the Firstborn.

I can provide you countless examples of people in the scriptures receiving revelation for people outside their stewardship. They cannot go and make laws, rules or policies any more than Samuel the Lamanite could make rules for the Nephite churches, but he was still sent by the Lord, endowed with the Power of God and spoke the will of the Lord to people who were not in his stewardship except that the Lord called him and authorized him directly without going through men or priesthood lines of men.

It is clear from the scriptures that the Lord does not follow or respect the lines of authority of the church as far as revelation is concerned. But, he does realize that only the President of the church can make policies, commandments and laws for the church to follow. The president of the United states can act in his office, to create laws and policies and administer his office and no one can overstep his position no matter how inspired they are, but anyone can receive revelations about the United States and him as a person/president and whether he is doing the right things or not.

Even the church leaders have said that we can receive revelation about whether they are leading the church correctly or not. This seems to be a flat out contradiction to the idea that we can't receive revelations about their stewardships. LOL,

They just don't want to deal with the reality that the Lord can and does work by small and simple means, (bottom up).

Even the church leaders have said that we can receive revelation about whether they are leading the church correctly or not. This seems to be a flat out contradiction to the idea that we can't receive revelations about their stewardships. LOL

Here are some Brigham Young quotes that say we should have revelation outside our stewardship and over our leaders.
What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually.
Another one...
Some may say, "Brethren, you who lead the Church, we have all confidence in you, we are not in the least afraid but what everything will go right under your superintendence; all the business matters will be transacted right; and if brother Brigham is satisfied with it, I am." I do not wish any Latter-day Saint in this world, nor in heaven, to be satisfied with anything I do, unless the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ, the spirit of revelation, makes them satisfied. I wish them to know for themselves and understand for themselves, for this would strengthen the faith that is within them. Suppose that the people were heedless, that they manifested no concern with regard to the things of the kingdom of God, but threw the whole burden upon the leaders of the people, saying, "If the brethren who take charge of matters are satisfied, we are," this is not pleasing in the sight of the Lord.

Every man and woman in this kingdom ought to be satisfied with what we do, but they never should be satisfied without asking the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, whether what we do is right.
~Seeker

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BeNotDeceived
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Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by BeNotDeceived »

ransomme wrote: December 19th, 2022, 5:55 am
10-4, I didn't get to the answer to your specific question/riddle, however I did reply
innocentoldguy wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 5:58 pm
So, this is the comment I originally replied to: "The above assumes the church wasn’t condemned and &#%!@? by brother Brigham and company. True messages will correlate with the name of Christ or Crist." I said this comment was false. You said it was correct and told me to read the D&C.

Then, after days of refusing to do so, you give me this as a citation, which has nothing to do with Brigham Young? You've gone completely off the rails of understanding from your first highlight, which is talking about the great apostasy and not something that the early saints had and then the Lord took away. I cannot fathom how you think any of your commentary here refutes what I said or supports what the pigeon said. All you've proven is that you don't understand what the scriptures are talking about and are therefore drawing irrelevant conclusions from them.

1 Nephi 7:14 offers a good description of the destiny of those who reject the prophets. They will be condemned and lose the spirit. That being the case, I'd encourage you to take some time and make sure you're not falling into that devilish trap.
Rather than admit being wrong, the foregoing post is another example of quitting the conversation when faced with facts that don’t support a fallacious paradigm. A word that’s been used here hundreds of times now must be filtered prolly because of someone who no longer posts here.

Alas, Raped is a better description of what Brigham and his merry womanizing men did to the church.

Maybe that explains your statement about a riddle, but if not, please clarify.

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Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by ransomme »

BeNotDeceived wrote: December 20th, 2022, 5:41 pm
ransomme wrote: December 19th, 2022, 5:55 am
10-4, I didn't get to the answer to your specific question/riddle, however I did reply
innocentoldguy wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 5:58 pm
So, this is the comment I originally replied to: "The above assumes the church wasn’t condemned and &#%!@? by brother Brigham and company. True messages will correlate with the name of Christ or Crist." I said this comment was false. You said it was correct and told me to read the D&C.

Then, after days of refusing to do so, you give me this as a citation, which has nothing to do with Brigham Young? You've gone completely off the rails of understanding from your first highlight, which is talking about the great apostasy and not something that the early saints had and then the Lord took away. I cannot fathom how you think any of your commentary here refutes what I said or supports what the pigeon said. All you've proven is that you don't understand what the scriptures are talking about and are therefore drawing irrelevant conclusions from them.

1 Nephi 7:14 offers a good description of the destiny of those who reject the prophets. They will be condemned and lose the spirit. That being the case, I'd encourage you to take some time and make sure you're not falling into that devilish trap.
Rather than admit being wrong, the foregoing post is another example of quitting the conversation when faced with facts that don’t support a fallacious paradigm. A word that’s been used here hundreds of times now must be filtered prolly because of someone who no longer posts here.

Alas, Raped is a better description of what Brigham and his merry womanizing men did to the church.

Maybe that explains your statement about a riddle, but if not, please clarify.
I was admitting to not answering your question. To clarify, I screwed up at the time, I read it differently. I was on a completely different page. Sorry for that

Thanks for getting past the bad language filter. Now I can see that bRigham aped the Church. I agree.

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