Congress votes to force workers....

For discussion of liberty, freedom, government and politics.
User avatar
gkearney
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5346

Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by gkearney »

The issue with Fred's "let's fire them all" approach is that unlike air traffic controllers where Reagan was able to press into service military ATCs until enough replacements could be trained, there isn't a big pool of qualified railroad workers out there to pull in and use to run the railroads. It takes a year to train an engineer and another year of working under the supervision of a qualified engineer before someone is ready to take over the running of a freight train. Even longer for train conductors who are the ones who really control the trains to start with. This doesn't even begin to approach the issue, however. There are also all the people who handle the complex task of train routing and switching, the maintenance of way employees who maintain the track and singling systems. Railroads are a big, complex business you can't just slap someone off the street to run them.

Just how do you expect the railroads to continue to run for the couple of years, it's going to take to get the replacements trained and working? Railroads, and for that matter airlines and ships as well, are not like Walmart who can just take anyone off the street. And less you think that trucks could handle all the freight, think again. First off go look at a major railroad freight yard sometime. There are thousands of semi-truck trailers and containers on those trains. There are not enough truck in the whole country to handle that volume of freight to say nothing of the fact that truck drivers are in very short supply as it is. What about all the things to big and heavy to move by truck?

The "fire them all" approach may make you feel like a big man until you start working out the logistics of such a plan and then it fall apart rather quickly.

tribrac
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4367
Location: The land northward

Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by tribrac »

Except, we don't know how many of the railroad workers would accept the current proposal or the next proposal.....

Rubicon
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1103

Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by Rubicon »

gkearney wrote: December 1st, 2022, 10:57 am The issue with Fred's "let's fire them all" approach is that unlike air traffic controllers where Reagan was able to press into service military ATCs until enough replacements could be trained, there isn't a big pool of qualified railroad workers out there to pull in and use to run the railroads. It takes a year to train an engineer and another year of working under the supervision of a qualified engineer before someone is ready to take over the running of a freight train. Even longer for train conductors who are the ones who really control the trains to start with. This doesn't even begin to approach the issue, however. There are also all the people who handle the complex task of train routing and switching, the maintenance of way employees who maintain the track and singling systems. Railroads are a big, complex business you can't just slap someone off the street to run them.

Just how do you expect the railroads to continue to run for the couple of years, it's going to take to get the replacements trained and working? Railroads, and for that matter airlines and ships as well, are not like Walmart who can just take anyone off the street. And less you think that trucks could handle all the freight, think again. First off go look at a major railroad freight yard sometime. There are thousands of semi-truck trailers and containers on those trains. There are not enough truck in the whole country to handle that volume of freight to say nothing of the fact that truck drivers are in very short supply as it is. What about all the things to big and heavy to move by truck?

The "fire them all" approach may make you feel like a big man until you start working out the logistics of such a plan and then it fall apart rather quickly.
I think the military could figure it out quickly. It has to in countries with severe infrastructure damage/disruption. Here, the infrastructure would be intact; it would be a matter of figuring out the logistics of keeping the lines and routes free-flowing and running.

I mean, the government deployed non-hospital military personnel to run field hospitals, etc. during the shutdown (in the early days). They never were pressed into full service on that, but they certainly could and would have been had conditions warranted it (this was when there were media claims of freezer morgue trucks, field hospitals, etc.).

In real emergencies, then the military and others would spring into action and figure it out as quickly as possible. I think a true rail shutdown rises to this level, and I would immediately dismiss the strikers after giving a final ultimatum so "scabs" who want to stay could stay. The unions are convinced that their bluff won't and can't be called --- they are convinced that they are holding all the cards and that everyone will have no choice but to do what they insist.

LadyT
captain of 100
Posts: 621

Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by LadyT »

I have talked to several railworkers. They need to be able to have leave. Some workers have been fired for take unpaid leave. They have missed funerals, births, kids having surgery and more. They work sick, throwing up because they will get fired if the take leave.

Many are looking for other jobs. There is talk about most of them quiting if congress forces this.

User avatar
Fred
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7610
Location: Zion

Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by Fred »

gkearney wrote: December 1st, 2022, 10:57 am The issue with Fred's "let's fire them all" approach is that unlike air traffic controllers where Reagan was able to press into service military ATCs until enough replacements could be trained, there isn't a big pool of qualified railroad workers out there to pull in and use to run the railroads. It takes a year to train an engineer and another year of working under the supervision of a qualified engineer before someone is ready to take over the running of a freight train. Even longer for train conductors who are the ones who really control the trains to start with. This doesn't even begin to approach the issue, however. There are also all the people who handle the complex task of train routing and switching, the maintenance of way employees who maintain the track and singling systems. Railroads are a big, complex business you can't just slap someone off the street to run them.

Just how do you expect the railroads to continue to run for the couple of years, it's going to take to get the replacements trained and working? Railroads, and for that matter airlines and ships as well, are not like Walmart who can just take anyone off the street. And less you think that trucks could handle all the freight, think again. First off go look at a major railroad freight yard sometime. There are thousands of semi-truck trailers and containers on those trains. There are not enough truck in the whole country to handle that volume of freight to say nothing of the fact that truck drivers are in very short supply as it is. What about all the things to big and heavy to move by truck?

The "fire them all" approach may make you feel like a big man until you start working out the logistics of such a plan and then it fall apart rather quickly.
No business should ever allow itself to be in a position of non survival in the event of worker blackmail. A business may have a handful of individuals that are 'key", but that number should never be in the thousands.

The easiest solution is that if the workers vote to unionize, simply fire all employees the next day and start over. The money lost in the interim will be minimal. No business should ever allow itself to be subject to a mob takeover.

User avatar
gkearney
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5346

Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by gkearney »

Fred wrote: December 1st, 2022, 12:06 pmNo business should ever allow itself to be in a position of non survival in the event of worker blackmail. A business may have a handful of individuals that are 'key", but that number should never be in the thousands.

The easiest solution is that if the workers vote to unionize, simply fire all employees the next day and start over. The money lost in the interim will be minimal. No business should ever allow itself to be subject to a mob takeover.
We are not talking about "money lost in the interim" here Fred we're talking about the complete elimination of a whole industry. These people simply cannot be quickly and simply replaced, your talking about years of not having a functioning railway system across the whole continent.

While your approach might work for some small firms and even might be effective in situations like retail and food service where the workers are not skilled in the very technical work, it's never going to work in high-skilled trades requiring years of training. And just where are you thinking all these replacement workers are going to come from? Immigration perhaps?

You're living in some sort of dream land if you think the answer to all this is as simple as you suggest.

JuneBug12000
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2066

Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by JuneBug12000 »

gkearney wrote: December 1st, 2022, 10:57 am The issue with Fred's "let's fire them all" approach is that unlike air traffic controllers where Reagan was able to press into service military ATCs until enough replacements could be trained, there isn't a big pool of qualified railroad workers out there to pull in and use to run the railroads. It takes a year to train an engineer and another year of working under the supervision of a qualified engineer before someone is ready to take over the running of a freight train. Even longer for train conductors who are the ones who really control the trains to start with. This doesn't even begin to approach the issue, however. There are also all the people who handle the complex task of train routing and switching, the maintenance of way employees who maintain the track and singling systems. Railroads are a big, complex business you can't just slap someone off the street to run them.

Just how do you expect the railroads to continue to run for the couple of years, it's going to take to get the replacements trained and working? Railroads, and for that matter airlines and ships as well, are not like Walmart who can just take anyone off the street. And less you think that trucks could handle all the freight, think again. First off go look at a major railroad freight yard sometime. There are thousands of semi-truck trailers and containers on those trains. There are not enough truck in the whole country to handle that volume of freight to say nothing of the fact that truck drivers are in very short supply as it is. What about all the things to big and heavy to move by truck?

The "fire them all" approach may make you feel like a big man until you start working out the logistics of such a plan and then it fall apart rather quickly.
Sounds like you believe they are too big to fail and that we have to do what they want to save the system.

Do the ends justify the means? Is it ok to ignore right and wrong because it is hard?

I have a theory that the RR workers also need safe water, groceries, and oil, just like the rest of us.

I agree they should have time off and fair pay. But from what I can gather they want more time off and a HUGE raise.

Maybe of they split the difference things would be ok. 24% raise and $5000 retroactive bonuses and an extra day off is what congress is demanding and leaves a lot of room to negotiate.

Maybe 10% raises, one $5000 bonus and 3 days off. It a better deal than any other American is getting right now.

Shoot, I'd settle for a single job offer after 5 months unemployed.

I get it would be hard and looks disastrous to let them strike. It is harder to keep up with the demands of a blackmailer, they are never satisfied. And these guys "need" the same stuff as the rest of us. They live in the same society, so call their bluff.

Also, the "just in time" crap has to stop. Hire some more workers and keep them on hand for things like this.

The true principle is "enough and to spare." Do what needs to be done when it needs to be done. Be prepared with a safety cushion. Let tomorrow come.

tribrac
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4367
Location: The land northward

Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by tribrac »

So Congress can say to a citizen..."You are essential to ________, therefore you are not allowed to take vacation or sick time. And must work under the terms we dictate."

I think the Democrats should do the democratic democracy thing they are always holding up as as their sacred ground. Let the American people vote on the terms of employment for the railroad workers. In a true democracy all of us would get to vote, and I am guessing the workers would get the time off they want.

But the Dems only want a democracy sometimes, on this issue they want neither democracy nor a constitutional Republic. They want a tyrannical oligarchy, so they can dictate the terms of employment without asking the voters nor be constrained by a constitution.

Rubicon
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1103

Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by Rubicon »

LadyT wrote: December 1st, 2022, 11:50 am I have talked to several railworkers. They need to be able to have leave. Some workers have been fired for take unpaid leave. They have missed funerals, births, kids having surgery and more. They work sick, throwing up because they will get fired if the take leave.

Many are looking for other jobs. There is talk about most of them quiting if congress forces this.
How much leave do they currently get? I bet it's more than most of us get --- already.

HVDC
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2600

Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by HVDC »

Rubicon wrote: December 1st, 2022, 5:26 am
harakim wrote: December 1st, 2022, 1:08 am
Maybe it's a sign that we should not allow such a fragile system where one organization holds the fate of the Union in the balance.
How would you improve the system so that "one organization [doesn't hold] the fate of the Union in the balance?"
Nationalize stragic infrastructure like Railroads, Water and Electrical Utilities, Mines, and Highways.

International Airports and Harbors and Ports too.

State Ownership within their borders; Federal without.

Citizens are the share holders.

They get the annual dividends like they do in Alaska.

No income taxes per say, but States could borrow money upon voter approval and levy property taxes until paid off.

Budgets are determined by current costs, capital improvements and future projects.

What we have now is Corporate Fascism.

Profit for me, social costs for thee.

Sir H

LadyT
captain of 100
Posts: 621

Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by LadyT »

Rubicon wrote: December 1st, 2022, 1:12 pm
LadyT wrote: December 1st, 2022, 11:50 am I have talked to several railworkers. They need to be able to have leave. Some workers have been fired for take unpaid leave. They have missed funerals, births, kids having surgery and more. They work sick, throwing up because they will get fired if the take leave.

Many are looking for other jobs. There is talk about most of them quiting if congress forces this.
How much leave do they currently get? I bet it's more than most of us get --- already.
No sick pay. Leave has to be planned 30 days out or more. I don't know how many days vacation they have. I know someone who misses his grandmother's funeral because he would be fired if he took the day off unpaid.

FoundMyEden
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1240

Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by FoundMyEden »

LadyT wrote: December 1st, 2022, 2:30 pm
Rubicon wrote: December 1st, 2022, 1:12 pm
LadyT wrote: December 1st, 2022, 11:50 am I have talked to several railworkers. They need to be able to have leave. Some workers have been fired for take unpaid leave. They have missed funerals, births, kids having surgery and more. They work sick, throwing up because they will get fired if the take leave.

Many are looking for other jobs. There is talk about most of them quiting if congress forces this.
How much leave do they currently get? I bet it's more than most of us get --- already.
No sick pay. Leave has to be planned 30 days out or more. I don't know how many days vacation they have. I know someone who misses his grandmother's funeral because he would be fired if he took the day off unpaid.
Fired for leave of a funeral is harsh. My husband works for a union but doesn’t get sick pay, holidays, or paid time off. He gets paid for what he works and that’s it. But he’s a traveler and his union claims they get paid enough. We disagree.

AZRob
captain of 100
Posts: 298

Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by AZRob »

I think you've finally got Rubicon to see the light! Now that he's learned more, we'll see if he'll troll to the bitter end from a position of weakness ....
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/01/success/ ... index.html

A rail worker is a lot like an over the road trucker who makes a bit less pay but more retirement on the back end. Neither gets any benefits to speak of in the working years.

Rubicon lives in a state which requires sick leave for almost all employees (except federal/state workers), no doctor's note required until the third day off, and harsh penalties for employer retaliation. Life's good, right?

Rubicon
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1103

Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by Rubicon »

LadyT wrote: December 1st, 2022, 2:30 pm
No sick pay. Leave has to be planned 30 days out or more. I don't know how many days vacation they have. I know someone who misses his grandmother's funeral because he would be fired if he took the day off unpaid.
From what I'm reading, they are expected to use personal days if they are sick, which is no different from many other jobs and sectors. My own job doesn't distinguish between "sick" and "personal;" I get ten days a year that can't be carried over. I haven't missed a day of work in over three years. It's being made to sound like they have no time off, ever, and I'm not buying that. Ditto with the "heartless" anecdotes about bereavement or bona fide emergencies. Since the industry has been hit so hard and workers are at a premium, it wouldn't work in practice to not let people go to funerals or deal with a real family emergency. They'd be firing people left and right, and crippling themselves.

And, if they're really this unjustly oppressed, why is this strike happening only now, in conjunction (at the same time) with other rail and postal strikes around the world? That's what is very fishy to me. Why didn't they strike to right this extreme injustice years ago? Why now?

User avatar
pho·to·syn·the·sis
captain of 100
Posts: 683
Location: Close to Faraway

Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by pho·to·syn·the·sis »

My first experience with the "Union" was immediately after high school. My first real job. All I remember is the Union Rep shows up in a Mercedes S600 class, chats with the guys for a few minutes and leaves as quickly as he came. The guys sat around for a few saying (paraphrasing) The rep knows how to bust the boss's balls, and he is always looking out for us." My first thought was, "looks like he is looking out for himself." I knew then, the majority of unions are a sham.

User avatar
harakim
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2819
Location: Salt Lake Megalopolis

Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by harakim »

Rubicon wrote: December 1st, 2022, 5:26 am
harakim wrote: December 1st, 2022, 1:08 am
Maybe it's a sign that we should not allow such a fragile system where one organization holds the fate of the Union in the balance.
How would you improve the system so that "one organization [doesn't hold] the fate of the Union in the balance?"
It's hard to know how to get to a good outcome like that. You would have to break up the railroad companies, break up the unions and then avoid incentivizing the consolidation of companies with onerous barrier-to-entry laws. It would take a shift in mindset which would have to start with a shift in possibilities. It would take at least two generations getting older to make the transition back to a somewhat free market.

There are other problems we could solve to help, but I'm not running for office so I haven't thought them through.

One thing I know is the difficulty in firing someone and salaries support a lot of low-output employees. It's a chicken and egg problem, though, with most of these things. Do you have the baptism by fire and just make it happen or do you try to somehow ease back into a system where people have consequences for their actions?

The worst thing we do is incentivize profits and make it illegal for public companies to do things like plan for the future. I think we would be better off if we abolished the stock market. When profit takes priority over national defense and, it's problematic. When it's enshrined in law, it's treason. Just look at our economy. It's not worth it for the workers to work. It's not worth it to get any kind of education. Everything you buy sucks in quality. Almost every critical supply chain we have involves at least one hostile nation. Our education system is poor and corporations do not invest in their employees, even through charities to help solve these simple problems. Yet they demand workers have those qualifications so most higher-up positions are held by confident liars. If you think it's unions doing that, then we have completely different outlooks on the current work environment.

User avatar
harakim
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2819
Location: Salt Lake Megalopolis

Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by harakim »

Rubicon wrote: December 1st, 2022, 10:02 am
Durzan wrote: December 1st, 2022, 5:42 am
Rubicon wrote: December 1st, 2022, 5:26 am
harakim wrote: December 1st, 2022, 1:08 am
Maybe it's a sign that we should not allow such a fragile system where one organization holds the fate of the Union in the balance.
How would you improve the system so that "one organization [doesn't hold] the fate of the Union in the balance?"
Demonopolize the railroad companies? Maybe the unions as well?
How do we do that without using the same heavy-handed methods being decried? It would have to consist of forcibly breaking up companies, or forcibly preventing people from freely forming unions as they see fit.

While the state of things isn't ideal, I think it's the best they can be (management/labor split). In certain cases that would bring economic and social catastrophe, I'm okay with the government quashing strikes (like this rail strike).

If the air traffic controllers hadn't been federal employees, should they have been able to bring air travel to a complete halt? That's a similar situation to the rail strike.
You are right this is pretty much the best we can do in the current conditions. It's a local maximum, but it's far below the global maximum. You don't have to forcibly break these things up, although that might be warranted. You just have to change the incentive structure from roughly 100% pro gadianton robbers to less than 50% pro Gadianton robbers and it will move to a new local maximum, which would likely be higher in quality.

User avatar
harakim
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2819
Location: Salt Lake Megalopolis

Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by harakim »

gkearney wrote: December 1st, 2022, 12:13 pm
Fred wrote: December 1st, 2022, 12:06 pmNo business should ever allow itself to be in a position of non survival in the event of worker blackmail. A business may have a handful of individuals that are 'key", but that number should never be in the thousands.

The easiest solution is that if the workers vote to unionize, simply fire all employees the next day and start over. The money lost in the interim will be minimal. No business should ever allow itself to be subject to a mob takeover.
We are not talking about "money lost in the interim" here Fred we're talking about the complete elimination of a whole industry. These people simply cannot be quickly and simply replaced, your talking about years of not having a functioning railway system across the whole continent.

While your approach might work for some small firms and even might be effective in situations like retail and food service where the workers are not skilled in the very technical work, it's never going to work in high-skilled trades requiring years of training. And just where are you thinking all these replacement workers are going to come from? Immigration perhaps?

You're living in some sort of dream land if you think the answer to all this is as simple as you suggest.
I'll start by saying that based on my experience in the corporate world, I agree this is probably the case in the rail industry today.

However, merchants used to be considered a skilled trade. You know, the walmart workers you can get off the street. This industry needs to have a more streamlined training program. The free market would dictate that after a few major strikes. When we can't accept lesser failures along the way, we are forced to accept complete failure.

Here's what I think would happen in Fred's proposal: they would rehire a lot of the fired workers as consultants making lots of money. It would turn out they had the money all along and they would retrain a lot of new workers who would get by. It would be an issue, but not that big of an issue.

Everyone in my industry has told me that their job is special and untrainable. Not only could I create a standardized training for their replacements, I have trained laymen to do their jobs on a one-on-one basis. Maybe every else just sucks at training more than me, but I don't think everyone does. Tools + training + willing people > existing people who have been at it for years

User avatar
harakim
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2819
Location: Salt Lake Megalopolis

Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by harakim »

JuneBug12000 wrote: December 1st, 2022, 12:35 pm
gkearney wrote: December 1st, 2022, 10:57 am The issue with Fred's "let's fire them all" approach is that unlike air traffic controllers where Reagan was able to press into service military ATCs until enough replacements could be trained, there isn't a big pool of qualified railroad workers out there to pull in and use to run the railroads. It takes a year to train an engineer and another year of working under the supervision of a qualified engineer before someone is ready to take over the running of a freight train. Even longer for train conductors who are the ones who really control the trains to start with. This doesn't even begin to approach the issue, however. There are also all the people who handle the complex task of train routing and switching, the maintenance of way employees who maintain the track and singling systems. Railroads are a big, complex business you can't just slap someone off the street to run them.

Just how do you expect the railroads to continue to run for the couple of years, it's going to take to get the replacements trained and working? Railroads, and for that matter airlines and ships as well, are not like Walmart who can just take anyone off the street. And less you think that trucks could handle all the freight, think again. First off go look at a major railroad freight yard sometime. There are thousands of semi-truck trailers and containers on those trains. There are not enough truck in the whole country to handle that volume of freight to say nothing of the fact that truck drivers are in very short supply as it is. What about all the things to big and heavy to move by truck?

The "fire them all" approach may make you feel like a big man until you start working out the logistics of such a plan and then it fall apart rather quickly.
Maybe 10% raises, one $5000 bonus and 3 days off. It a better deal than any other American is getting right now.
I have never heard of a salaried job only giving 3 days off. If they are run by someone from 1980s business school, you'll still get 10 days off, paid. Unlimited PTO is common, especially if you count the combination of work from home and quiet quitting.

Do you feel like it's right for the government to set wages? "That's enough of a raise for you, Tiny Tim. Move along."

User avatar
harakim
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2819
Location: Salt Lake Megalopolis

Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by harakim »

Rubicon wrote: December 1st, 2022, 1:12 pm
LadyT wrote: December 1st, 2022, 11:50 am I have talked to several railworkers. They need to be able to have leave. Some workers have been fired for take unpaid leave. They have missed funerals, births, kids having surgery and more. They work sick, throwing up because they will get fired if the take leave.

Many are looking for other jobs. There is talk about most of them quiting if congress forces this.
How much leave do they currently get? I bet it's more than most of us get --- already.
It looks reasonable from the glass door comments
https://www.glassdoor.com/Benefits/Unio ... 691_N1.htm

tribrac
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4367
Location: The land northward

Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by tribrac »

I have worked for places which had PTO and sick leave, but had so many rules or restrictions that it became impossible to use.

Rubicon
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1103

Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by Rubicon »

This whole discussion is interesting to me in light of how I have always interpreted "slaves rising up against their masters" in the Civil War (and so much more) prophesy in D&C 87. It's always been clear to me that this is a latter-day event and not a Civil War one (like how it refers to the world wars and beyond).

There are a lot of ways that many people are slaves and oppressed in our day, without them being slaves in the traditional sense. Lots of economic and political bondage.

I think we are on the cusp of the literal fulfillment of a lot of monumental things.

User avatar
Fred
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7610
Location: Zion

Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by Fred »

gkearney wrote: December 1st, 2022, 12:13 pm
Fred wrote: December 1st, 2022, 12:06 pmNo business should ever allow itself to be in a position of non survival in the event of worker blackmail. A business may have a handful of individuals that are 'key", but that number should never be in the thousands.

The easiest solution is that if the workers vote to unionize, simply fire all employees the next day and start over. The money lost in the interim will be minimal. No business should ever allow itself to be subject to a mob takeover.
We are not talking about "money lost in the interim" here Fred we're talking about the complete elimination of a whole industry. These people simply cannot be quickly and simply replaced, your talking about years of not having a functioning railway system across the whole continent.

While your approach might work for some small firms and even might be effective in situations like retail and food service where the workers are not skilled in the very technical work, it's never going to work in high-skilled trades requiring years of training. And just where are you thinking all these replacement workers are going to come from? Immigration perhaps?

You're living in some sort of dream land if you think the answer to all this is as simple as you suggest.
You are mostly correct, so the time to have fired them all was decades ago or whenever it was that the union put the guns to the heads of management. But even now, it is better for a business to shut down even if thousands of people starve to death in order for management to regain control of their business.

JuneBug12000
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2066

Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by JuneBug12000 »

harakim wrote: December 1st, 2022, 5:49 pm
JuneBug12000 wrote: December 1st, 2022, 12:35 pm
gkearney wrote: December 1st, 2022, 10:57 am The issue with Fred's "let's fire them all" approach is that unlike air traffic controllers where Reagan was able to press into service military ATCs until enough replacements could be trained, there isn't a big pool of qualified railroad workers out there to pull in and use to run the railroads. It takes a year to train an engineer and another year of working under the supervision of a qualified engineer before someone is ready to take over the running of a freight train. Even longer for train conductors who are the ones who really control the trains to start with. This doesn't even begin to approach the issue, however. There are also all the people who handle the complex task of train routing and switching, the maintenance of way employees who maintain the track and singling systems. Railroads are a big, complex business you can't just slap someone off the street to run them.

Just how do you expect the railroads to continue to run for the couple of years, it's going to take to get the replacements trained and working? Railroads, and for that matter airlines and ships as well, are not like Walmart who can just take anyone off the street. And less you think that trucks could handle all the freight, think again. First off go look at a major railroad freight yard sometime. There are thousands of semi-truck trailers and containers on those trains. There are not enough truck in the whole country to handle that volume of freight to say nothing of the fact that truck drivers are in very short supply as it is. What about all the things to big and heavy to move by truck?

The "fire them all" approach may make you feel like a big man until you start working out the logistics of such a plan and then it fall apart rather quickly.
Maybe 10% raises, one $5000 bonus and 3 days off. It a better deal than any other American is getting right now.
I have never heard of a salaried job only giving 3 days off. If they are run by someone from 1980s business school, you'll still get 10 days off, paid. Unlimited PTO is common, especially if you count the combination of work from home and quiet quitting.

Do you feel like it's right for the government to set wages? "That's enough of a raise for you, Tiny Tim. Move along."
I wasn't saying 3 days total, and was saying 3 days more.

Nope. The government should not set wages. That is why I don't think congress should be forcing them to take a deal, I am simply pointing out that based on what congress is considering, there seems to be plenty of room for negotiation between the RR and the workers.

Post Reply