Congress votes to force workers....

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tribrac
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Congress votes to force workers....

Post by tribrac »

...to accept a 24% raise and $5,000 bonuses.

https://www.ksl.com/article/50528742/co ... ail-strike

No kidding. The press are reporting that Schumer and Pelosi are 'reluctant' to step in to force the labor unions to accept the deal, but they feel they must act to avoid an economic catastrophe.

Not sure where in the constitution it says Congress can force people to labor on terms they don't agree with if the it is desperate situation. Nor is it clear what qualifies as a desperate situation....the economy? A health crisis, how about a global climate crisis or a racial inequality crisis, or .....

Some of you new posters might not know that 10 or 12 years ago this Freedom Forum used to discuss issues like this rather than constantly arguing about the 15 or being outraged over LGBTQ.

blitzinstripes
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Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by blitzinstripes »

Massive unconstitutional overreach. And I am a United Steelworker. Government should not interfere in the bargaining process. They cannot legislate a labor contract.

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Durzan
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Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by Durzan »

Something something... insert justification about the regulate interstate trade clause in the constitution, something something about how this bargain affects the entire economy of the US (IE trade), boom there ya go.

Rubicon
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Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by Rubicon »

A rail shutdown would be catastrophic to the US and world economy in orders of magnitude worse than the pandemic shutdown was. Some things cannot be used as striking leverage because of national security or other reasons. Reagan firing the striking air traffic controllers early in his presidency comes to mind.

Fuel, chlorine for civic water treatment, raw materials, etc. cannot be held hostage by striking unions. That is a case where I would be fine with even mobilizing the military to keep it running (although Congress has the authority to override negotiations in certain cases, like this). Politically, the Biden administration can't let it happen. It would torches and pitchforks at the gates.

tribrac
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Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by tribrac »

Maybe I am wrong, but weren't the striking air traffic controllers Federal Employees?

I don't believe the railroad workers are employees of the federal government.

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harakim
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Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by harakim »

Rubicon wrote: November 30th, 2022, 11:58 am A rail shutdown would be catastrophic to the US and world economy in orders of magnitude worse than the pandemic shutdown was. Some things cannot be used as striking leverage because of national security or other reasons. Reagan firing the striking air traffic controllers early in his presidency comes to mind.

Fuel, chlorine for civic water treatment, raw materials, etc. cannot be held hostage by striking unions. That is a case where I would be fine with even mobilizing the military to keep it running (although Congress has the authority to override negotiations in certain cases, like this). Politically, the Biden administration can't let it happen. It would torches and pitchforks at the gates.
The little people must never punch up. Only the rich punching down. Their profits will be protected by the military in the interest of national security. They can exploit always and forever and the use the power of monopoly, the law and civil proceedings over their customers and employees, but when the reverse happens it is a matter of national security.

Where is the government when companies are creating just-in-time supply chains for vital industries to increase their profits? Where are they when companies are forcing employees to accept less pay because of barrier to entry the government created? Where are they when banks are becoming to big to fail and becoming even bigger after we just had to bail them out? They are only there when the non-donor class tries. But let us not forget, it pains them to do it.

They government supports reckless irresponsibility in corporations, but then says it's only "just us" that can do it. You peasants keep playing the game we want you to play, you'd better not play our game.

Rubicon
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Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by Rubicon »

What are they striking for? I seem to have read that it was for some ridiculous amount of paid leave. Railroad employees already have special perks and benefits (cf. the sections on income tax forms about railroad income).

If we just have to cave every time to railroad strikes because they need to be allowed to use that leverage (completely shutting down everything) --- is that what people are suggesting? Because in that game of chicken, the railroad workers win every time. The country/world can't last long at all with rail freight 100% shut down.

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Fred
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Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by Fred »

Labor unions are pure evil. If they refuse to work, fire them. If the trains quit, only the unprepared will die. Let the bodies stack up. When it gets to smelling real ripe, hire non union people to run the trains. When the union members run out of money, refuse to hire them. Let them die. Good riddance to bad rubbish. Unions are the tool that satan uses for control. Totally destroyed the education system. When someone gets that much power, it is best to call their bluff. Let the pieces fall where they may.

blitzinstripes
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Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by blitzinstripes »

The government cannot force private sector employees to come to work. If you support that, then move to communist China. If they can mandate that, they can mandate children in sweatshops or any other nonsense they deem a matter of 'national security '.

I am a defense contractor (private sector). The feds could not stop my union from striking even though we are critical to national security.

They can put pressure/ leverage our employer to settle the dispute or try to mediate between the negotiating teams. But they cannot legislate a labor contract between a union in the private sector. It's a dangerous leap down the road to a communist state. I am appalled.

What stops them from legislating a contract next time the Teamsters or the UAW call a strike? Both could rightly be referred to as critical infrastructure.

blitzinstripes
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Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by blitzinstripes »

Fred wrote: November 30th, 2022, 12:43 pm Labor unions are pure evil. If they refuse to work, fire them. If the trains quit, only the unprepared will die. Let the bodies stack up. When it gets to smelling real ripe, hire non union people to run the trains. When the union members run out of money, refuse to hire them. Let them die. Good riddance to bad rubbish. Unions are the tool that satan uses for control. Totally destroyed the education system. When someone gets that much power, it is best to call their bluff. Let the pieces fall where they may.
Horse puckey.

Unions are a check and balance between elite massive corporations and the blue collar workers they piss on. They have provided a better way of life for millions of Americans, while evil men like Rockefellers and Ford would have our kids working in sweat shops with no benefits. There is real evil (corporate greed) in the world, and collective bargaining protects our working people much of it.

My union is 90% conservatives and a very significant number of veterans. Neither political party represents the working class. The Republicans hate us openly and the Democrats pretend to side with labor until $h&t like this happens and they show their true colors.

So we stand united, and fight for each other. My corporation makes billions in profits even while SOMEHOW being able to pay high union wages and benefits that we bargained for.

They still get their big, fat pie. But we made them give us a piece of that so we can earn a good living.

Even if you don't like or support the unions, you have us to thank for every single damned benefit you have in a non union workplace.

Paid holidays, good wages paid vacation, 401k, pension, health insurance, OSHA, etc....ALL brought to you by a union somewhere that fought and went on strike to earn that benefit. The rest of you have it
ONLY because the unions had it first and forced them to become competitive.

Serragon
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Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by Serragon »

blitzinstripes wrote: November 30th, 2022, 10:44 am Massive unconstitutional overreach. And I am a United Steelworker. Government should not interfere in the bargaining process. They cannot legislate a labor contract.
Government already interferes in the bargaining process by giving special rights and privileges to unions that are not given to other groups. Most labor unions would not be able to negotiate if it weren't for these special protections as most union workers are easily replaceable.

Serragon
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Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by Serragon »

blitzinstripes wrote: November 30th, 2022, 1:30 pm
Fred wrote: November 30th, 2022, 12:43 pm Labor unions are pure evil. If they refuse to work, fire them. If the trains quit, only the unprepared will die. Let the bodies stack up. When it gets to smelling real ripe, hire non union people to run the trains. When the union members run out of money, refuse to hire them. Let them die. Good riddance to bad rubbish. Unions are the tool that satan uses for control. Totally destroyed the education system. When someone gets that much power, it is best to call their bluff. Let the pieces fall where they may.
Horse puckey.

Unions are a check and balance between elite massive corporations and the blue collar workers they piss on. They have provided a better way of life for millions of Americans, while evil men like Rockefellers and Ford would have our kids working in sweat shops with no benefits. There is real evil (corporate greed) in the world, and collective bargaining protects our working people much of it.

My union is 90% conservatives and a very significant number of veterans. Neither political party represents the working class. The Republicans hate us openly and the Democrats pretend to side with labor until $h&t like this happens and they show their true colors.

So we stand united, and fight for each other. My corporation makes billions in profits even while SOMEHOW being able to pay high union wages and benefits that we bargained for.

They still get their big, fat pie. But we made them give us a piece of that so we can earn a good living.

Even if you don't like or support the unions, you have us to thank for every single damned benefit you have in a non union workplace.

Paid holidays, good wages paid vacation, 401k, pension, health insurance, OSHA, etc....ALL brought to you by a union somewhere that fought and went on strike to earn that benefit. The rest of you have it
ONLY because the unions had it first and forced them to become competitive.
I appreciate your love for you union brethren and for the good that you seem to think has come from these organizations. And I too think it unconstitutional for government to dictate to any private employee that they must work.

But that does not mean that I find anything good about the modern labor union. The reality is that labor unions are simply a government protected monopoly on the resource of labor. They act as a third party that stands between the employer and the employee, taking their cut and dictating the terms you both must abide by while not actually representing either party.

The employer is not allowed to find labor through any other source. The employee is not allowed to find employment through any other source. The union dictates everything about the employer/employee relationship and doesn't care in the least what is best for the company or for you as an individual.

I have no issues at all with people choosing to organize together to try and reach a common goal or ideal. But my support for these endeavors ends when these organizations get special treatment that allow them to trample on the natural rights of others with impunity.

Rubicon
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Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by Rubicon »

I still have never had anyone give a good answer to the complaint that --- in this case with the railroad --- without government squashing the strike, the unions have a sure thing. They don't need to concede anything at all, and they are holding all the cards. They can simply cripple everything, and "management" has to give in --- or nothing moves. It's not a fair negotiating position; it's a sure thing.

There has to be a chance for both labor and management to have massive losses if they don't negotiate in good faith. Railroad paid leave is already very favorable, and management concessions were made in negotiation, but they have been rejected wholesale because the unions feel they have a "sure thing."

I think this is all orchestrated and manipulated, anyway. Wasn't there a big railway strike in the UK recently? Austria just had a rail strike start on Monday (my daughter is there on a mission). This global coordination of rail strikes is suspicious to me --- it looks like the unions are being played by "puppetmasters." Why now, when the economy is still in very bad shape? It seems to me like the powers that be want to drive the recession into depression.

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Fred
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Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by Fred »

Labor unions are nothing more than legal blackmail. Put a gun to the head of a business owner and begin making demands. The result should be instant firing and refusal to ever hire back under any conditions, ever. Any employee is free to quit at any time and find a better paying job. But a union has the power to bankrupt a business. Labor unions are pure satanism.

HVDC
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Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by HVDC »

tribrac wrote: November 30th, 2022, 10:23 am ...to accept a 24% raise and $5,000 bonuses.

https://www.ksl.com/article/50528742/co ... ail-strike

No kidding. The press are reporting that Schumer and Pelosi are 'reluctant' to step in to force the labor unions to accept the deal, but they feel they must act to avoid an economic catastrophe.

Not sure where in the constitution it says Congress can force people to labor on terms they don't agree with if the it is desperate situation. Nor is it clear what qualifies as a desperate situation....the economy? A health crisis, how about a global climate crisis or a racial inequality crisis, or .....

Some of you new posters might not know that 10 or 12 years ago this Freedom Forum used to discuss issues like this rather than constantly arguing about the 15 or being outraged over LGBTQ.
I'll take it.

Sir H

JuneBug12000
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Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by JuneBug12000 »

There is already a word that exists for the definition "forced to work" : slavery.

It would suck short term, but let them strike.

Either they are worth what they are asking or not.

If not, get new workers, you don't want entitled workers. They have hidden costs associated with them anyway.

If so, pay them what they are worth. Cheaper than hiring new unskilled and training.

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harakim
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Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by harakim »

Rubicon wrote: November 30th, 2022, 12:24 pm What are they striking for? I seem to have read that it was for some ridiculous amount of paid leave. Railroad employees already have special perks and benefits (cf. the sections on income tax forms about railroad income).

If we just have to cave every time to railroad strikes because they need to be allowed to use that leverage (completely shutting down everything) --- is that what people are suggesting? Because in that game of chicken, the railroad workers win every time. The country/world can't last long at all with rail freight 100% shut down.
Maybe it's a sign that we should not allow such a fragile system where one organization holds the fate of the Union in the balance.

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harakim
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Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by harakim »

Fred wrote: November 30th, 2022, 3:08 pm Labor unions are nothing more than legal blackmail. Put a gun to the head of a business owner and begin making demands. The result should be instant firing and refusal to ever hire back under any conditions, ever. Any employee is free to quit at any time and find a better paying job. But a union has the power to bankrupt a business. Labor unions are pure satanism.
I agree that socialist organizations who divorce performance from pay are a problem for our economy. They also give benefits that disincentivize healthy behavior. They use their power in numbers. I'm, of course, talking about corporations. Corporations are an entity that, for evil reasons, controls the fate of up to thousands or millions of workers. They have unreasonable bargaining power in that regard. Unions are just the counterpart of corporations. They use the exact same tactics, so if you don't like it, then you should also be calling for the abolition of corporations, which I would agree with. Until that happens, there needs to be a balance.

While I agree that most unions are evil and that they destroyed the public education system, unions are the counterpart of corporations and we need them.

The corporation is totally free to use the tactic you described, but they won't because they can turn to government to make sure their trough continues to run over.
Serragon wrote: November 30th, 2022, 1:43 pm
blitzinstripes wrote: November 30th, 2022, 10:44 am Massive unconstitutional overreach. And I am a United Steelworker. Government should not interfere in the bargaining process. They cannot legislate a labor contract.
Government already interferes in the bargaining process by giving special rights and privileges to unions that are not given to other groups. Most labor unions would not be able to negotiate if it weren't for these special protections as most union workers are easily replaceable.
And War Is Peace, Freedom Is Slavery, and Ignorance Is Strength, right? I couldn't help myself. The government is literally stepping in on the side of the corporation and against the union and you're talking about all these special protections for the unions. Theoretically, your outcome might make sense, but in reality, the government offers more special protections to corporations than unions.
Last edited by harakim on December 1st, 2022, 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

Letfreedumbring
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Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by Letfreedumbring »

tribrac wrote: November 30th, 2022, 12:15 pm Maybe I am wrong, but weren't the striking air traffic controllers Federal Employees?

I don't believe the railroad workers are employees of the federal government.
The air traffic controllers were federal employees
https://www.afacwa.org/reagan_fires_11_ ... ontrollers
Reagan had the FAA institute a lifetime ban for rehiring any of the controllers that were fired.

Railroad employees are technically working for private sector (unless they work for Amtrak who are federal) but their whole retirement system is federally owned and regulated. So they could pull a Reagan with their retirement but that is obviously not what democrats are looking for with these actions. Constitutional overreach is the name of the game.

Rubicon
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Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by Rubicon »

harakim wrote: December 1st, 2022, 1:08 am
Maybe it's a sign that we should not allow such a fragile system where one organization holds the fate of the Union in the balance.
How would you improve the system so that "one organization [doesn't hold] the fate of the Union in the balance?"

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Durzan
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Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by Durzan »

Rubicon wrote: December 1st, 2022, 5:26 am
harakim wrote: December 1st, 2022, 1:08 am
Maybe it's a sign that we should not allow such a fragile system where one organization holds the fate of the Union in the balance.
How would you improve the system so that "one organization [doesn't hold] the fate of the Union in the balance?"
Demonopolize the railroad companies? Maybe the unions as well?

blitzinstripes
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Re: Congress votes to force workers....

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tmac
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Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by tmac »

Unions, like government, churches, organized religion, capitalism, banks, monopolies, etc., can become abusive and out-of-control when they get out of balance, and get too big and powerful, etc.

Battle of the Tyrants/Titans?

Rubicon
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Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by Rubicon »

Durzan wrote: December 1st, 2022, 5:42 am
Rubicon wrote: December 1st, 2022, 5:26 am
harakim wrote: December 1st, 2022, 1:08 am
Maybe it's a sign that we should not allow such a fragile system where one organization holds the fate of the Union in the balance.
How would you improve the system so that "one organization [doesn't hold] the fate of the Union in the balance?"
Demonopolize the railroad companies? Maybe the unions as well?
How do we do that without using the same heavy-handed methods being decried? It would have to consist of forcibly breaking up companies, or forcibly preventing people from freely forming unions as they see fit.

While the state of things isn't ideal, I think it's the best they can be (management/labor split). In certain cases that would bring economic and social catastrophe, I'm okay with the government quashing strikes (like this rail strike).

If the air traffic controllers hadn't been federal employees, should they have been able to bring air travel to a complete halt? That's a similar situation to the rail strike.

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tmac
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Re: Congress votes to force workers....

Post by tmac »

All symptoms of a society that is completely out-of-balance, and out of control.

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