Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

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John Tavner
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Re: Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

Post by John Tavner »

LDS Watchman wrote: October 9th, 2022, 8:11 am
John Tavner wrote: October 9th, 2022, 7:38 am
LDS Watchman wrote: October 9th, 2022, 7:15 am
John Tavner wrote: October 9th, 2022, 6:11 am

No, again, because it isn't producing life. The intended purpose of God was that man produce after their own kind, and they were to be created and produce after the image of God - sin and death entered into the equation and the process was corrupted. God sent His Son to fix it if we believe. The answer is really simple. Does it produce life? If Yes - than it is more likely of God, if no, then it is not of God. Sin is that which separates us from life or from God (the second part of the test even if it does produce life does it separate us from God and make us more like Him or draw us or others from Him or towards Him?) I.e. are we producing Godly characteristics or natural/corrupted ones. Homosexuality is a state of damnation because it can not produce after it's own kind through its intended sphere therefore it is not of God. A person can only think what you are thinking if they do not understand who God is and His purposes.
It takes two different genders to create life, right? So gender matters.
Gender is not and should not be a focus - You are taking a word and twisting hte meaning of "matters" to prove something htat no one is arguing against. The very reason that are focusing on gender is why we have such a twisted world view. Gender just is. What matters is us coming unto Christ and forming ourselves in His image. Everything else will flow from that. If you get it backwards and try to produce the holy from the natural it is corrupted. Become Holy through Christ THEN everything will flow in its proper form. Don't do things backwards and think "gender matters" When the reality is htat. Life matters, Christ matters, Loving God with all our heart, might mind and strength matters, DENYING OURSELF matters. Coming unto Christ and Denying ourselves resolves any "gender disputes" one might have. Instead we are "lovers of our own selves" and seek to be superior in coversations missing hte forest for the trees because we refuse to acknowledge or udnerstand what is being said and seek only to be "right" rather than to obtain the righteousness GOd gave us through His SOn.

These types of arguments are ridiculous when you start quibbling over how a person uses the word "matters."
John, please look in the mirror. You're the one quibbling and arguing. I made a point, which I think is completely valid. For some reason you are getting worker up about it and want to argue.

Gender matters. That was my whole point. And you obviously agree that it matters, so let's just drop this.
Mirrors can be funny things sometimes. You think I was attacking you. I wasn't. You are of course free to be offended, but only a fool (one who is deficient in understanding) takes offense when none is intended and a greater fool (one who is deficient in understanding) takes offense when it was intended. Either way, one is a fool (One who is deficient in understanding) when they take offense because they have not learned to rely on God for their identity and let man or others determine their identity (they are hurt or offended)- hence why, Knowing God matters and our desire to make "gender matter" means we don't understand His purpose for us. It just is. Don't let others define your identity - whether you are male of female. Let God determine your identity through His Son and His calling to you and for you through and by His Holy Spirit which transforms you into a Son or Daughter of God - completely and entirely one in Christ no longer worrying about the "worldly" or "fleshly" things but the things of God because you already know who you are through Him, not because of what you learned in a fallen world. Thank God for His mercy and one of His final prayers on this earth "Forgive them Father, they don't know what they are doing/don't understand"

Proverbs 4:7 “Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.” Hosea 4:6 " My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you as My priests. Since you have forgotten the law of your God, I will also forget your children."
Last edited by John Tavner on October 9th, 2022, 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

illuminating.Grace
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Re: Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

Post by illuminating.Grace »

cyclOps wrote: October 7th, 2022, 9:18 pm
illuminating.Grace wrote: October 7th, 2022, 8:15 pm

Welcome. What do you mean when you say you don’t believe the family proclamation?


It's nice to meet you,

Here are the family proclamation words for reference, I've selected the words that stand out to me by making them bold to aid in our discussion. Some of the biggest changes that have happened to pure doctrine in the church has come about by slight lies, and over time, snowballing into greater and greater changes... similar to the apostasy. If satan didn't change things little by little, and if man didn't change things little by little it would be much more noticeable. I have noticed a pattern in the declaring of proclamations, where they seem to be off center, compared to divinely inspired scripture that is canonized in say D&C for example... another manner of detecting these is the lack of "Thus saith the Lord" when new revelation has been given, the writing perspective isn't as if it was God speaking, but rather the church leadership themselves. In addition, I have found the proclamations to be aimed at appeasing to the US government, ever since the proclamation issued by President Woodruff stating a rejection of plural marriage in the New and Everlasting covenant.

The church is slowly being made into the image of Babylon, since around the early 1900's / late 1800s little by little, by satan, the evil behind Babylon. The root cause is the "fear of Man", and began from the church presidents around Woodruff. This will ultimately lead to the judgements that will be poured out upon the church, to refine it, and raise it back up without the tares, in pure doctrine.


_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


The Family

A Proclamation to the World

The First Presidency and Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children.

All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

In the premortal realm, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshipped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny as heirs of eternal life. The divine plan of happiness enables family relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave. Sacred ordinances and covenants available in holy temples make it possible for individuals to return to the presence of God and for families to be united eternally.

The first commandment that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God’s commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.

We declare the means by which mortal life is created to be divinely appointed. We affirm the sanctity of life and of its importance in God’s eternal plan.

Husband and wife have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. “Children are an heritage of the Lord” (Psalm 127:3). Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, and to teach them to love and serve one another, observe the commandments of God, and be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. ( See the Truth 1 reference below) Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations.

The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities. By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. (See Truth 2 reference below) Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation. Extended families should lend support when needed.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


(Truth 1)

The significance of this change, which the church holds as cemented into doctrine now, is that they are teaching, even by missionaries (handbooks, which are a huge problem), that all laws within our country need to be followed, else we sin... which is not true.The truth is...

D&C 98 1-11
1 Verily I say unto you my friends, fear not, let your hearts be comforted; yea, rejoice evermore, and in everything give thanks;
2 Waiting patiently on the Lord, for your prayers have entered into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, and are recorded with this seal and testament—the Lord hath sworn and decreed that they shall be granted.
3 Therefore, he giveth this promise unto you, with an immutable covenant that they shall be fulfilled; and all things wherewith you have been afflicted shall work together for your good, and to my name’s glory, saith the Lord.
4 And now, verily I say unto you concerning the laws of the land, it is my will that my people should observe to do all things whatsoever I command them.
5 And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me.
6 Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land;
7 And as pertaining to law of man, whatsoever is more or less than this, cometh of evil.
8 I, the Lord God, make you free, therefore ye are free indeed; and the law also maketh you free.
9 Nevertheless, when the wicked rule the people mourn.
10 Wherefore, honest men and wise men should be sought for diligently, and good men and wise men ye should observe to uphold; otherwise whatsoever is less than these cometh of evil.
11 And I give unto you a commandment, that ye shall forsake all evil and cleave unto all agood, that ye shall live by every bword which proceedeth forth out of the mouth of God.

(Truth 2)
This lie, is a move towards the enemies will to remove the head of families, the patriarch... with an ultimate goal of removing the power of the priesthood from families. There is a common theme by Babylon to raise women into power and lower mans power, this is evil.

An example of how woman is to submit to their husband. How the Husband is the head of the wife, and therefore the head of the family, and therefore christ is the head of the husband. (read the rest of this chapter as well to see the whole picture)
Ephesians 5:23-26
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

( Truth 2 )
An example of how by woman, man was led astray, through the act of the serpent, satan. Without the leadership of man, over woman, many of us would be led astray with other matters.
Genesis 3:16
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Prophecy in regards to womens rule over men, and the desolation thereof by God, in his judgements ( Isaiah 3)
11 Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him.
12 ¶ As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.
13 The Lord standeth up to plead, and standeth to judge the people.
14 The Lord will enter into judgment with the ancients of his people, and the princes thereof: for ye have eaten up the vineyard; the spoil of the poor is in your houses.
15 What mean ye that ye beat my people to pieces, and grind the faces of the poor? saith the Lord God of hosts.
16 ¶ Moreover the Lord saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:
17 Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will discover their secret parts.
18 In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon,
19 The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers,
20 The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings,
21 The rings, and nose jewels,
22 The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins,
23 The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the veils.
24 And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of ca stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty.
25 Thy amen shall fall by the sword, and thy mighty in the war.
26 And her gates shall lament and mourn; and she being desolate shall sit upon the ground.


There is more that I can share, but this should suffice for now. I hope it fills in the banks sufficiently.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

Post by Shawn Henry »

Kit-OTW wrote: October 8th, 2022, 10:04 pm I don't believe for a minute that it was Oliver Cowdery's and I don't believe it was merely a statement of belief.
Nice find on that excerpt.
LDS Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 10:16 pm It is nevertheless a fact that it was written by Oliver Cowdery and that it is a statement of belief, not a revelation from God. It's no different than our current D&C 134 (also included in the 1835 D&C), which includes the following statement:

"we do not believe it right to interfere with bond-servants, neither preach the gospel to, nor baptize them contrary to the will and wish of their masters, nor to meddle with or influence them in the least to cause them to be dissatisfied with their situations in this life, thereby jeopardizing the lives of men; such interference we believe to be unlawful and unjust, and dangerous to the peace of every government allowing human beings to be held in servitude."

This statement, while still in our D&C, is not forever binding upon the church. As circumstances change, the statement of belief may no longer be applicable.
I don't think you are very familiar with what Oliver's role actually was.

The Lord told him a few key things in section 28:

1. "Oliver, that it shall be given unto thee that thou shalt be heard by the church in all things whatsoever thou shalt teach them by the Comforter, concerning the revelations and commandments which I have given."
2. He was "even as Aaron, to declare faithfully the commandments and the revelations, with power and authority unto the church."
3."And if thou art led at any time by the Comforter to speak or teach, or at all times by the way of commandment unto the church, thou mayest do it."

The Lord specifically defined the role of the First and Second Elders. Joseph receives the revelations by the spirit and Oliver teaches the revelations by the spirit. Joseph received revelations about God's marital law in sections 42 and 49 and in Jacob 2. It was then Oliver's calling to expound upon those teachings which he did in the Article on Marriage.

You have failed to see that the receiving of this teaching is a perfect match to the canonization process that the Lord revealed. It was not Joseph's calling to teach the revelations, which is why the Lord told him to pretend to no other gift. It is also signed and affirmed by 4 PSR's.

This pattern is also defined nicely in 2 Nephi 3, where we learn that Joseph is to receive the word and Sydney is to declare the word. This is how the Lord implements the law of witnesses, which is also why we should distrust the Nauvoo doctrines that the Lord never provided witnesses for.

By the way, your slavery example does not fit. Slavery was always wrong, the Lord sometimes has to mitigate bad circumstances that men have made into law. Monogamy was a correct principle from the beginning.

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Re: Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

Post by LDS Watchman »

Shawn Henry wrote: October 18th, 2022, 12:41 pm
Kit-OTW wrote: October 8th, 2022, 10:04 pm I don't believe for a minute that it was Oliver Cowdery's and I don't believe it was merely a statement of belief.
Nice find on that excerpt.
LDS Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 10:16 pm It is nevertheless a fact that it was written by Oliver Cowdery and that it is a statement of belief, not a revelation from God. It's no different than our current D&C 134 (also included in the 1835 D&C), which includes the following statement:

"we do not believe it right to interfere with bond-servants, neither preach the gospel to, nor baptize them contrary to the will and wish of their masters, nor to meddle with or influence them in the least to cause them to be dissatisfied with their situations in this life, thereby jeopardizing the lives of men; such interference we believe to be unlawful and unjust, and dangerous to the peace of every government allowing human beings to be held in servitude."

This statement, while still in our D&C, is not forever binding upon the church. As circumstances change, the statement of belief may no longer be applicable.
I don't think you are very familiar with what Oliver's role actually was.

The Lord told him a few key things in section 28:

1. "Oliver, that it shall be given unto thee that thou shalt be heard by the church in all things whatsoever thou shalt teach them by the Comforter, concerning the revelations and commandments which I have given."
2. He was "even as Aaron, to declare faithfully the commandments and the revelations, with power and authority unto the church."
3."And if thou art led at any time by the Comforter to speak or teach, or at all times by the way of commandment unto the church, thou mayest do it."

The Lord specifically defined the role of the First and Second Elders. Joseph receives the revelations by the spirit and Oliver teaches the revelations by the spirit. Joseph received revelations about God's marital law in sections 42 and 49 and in Jacob 2. It was then Oliver's calling to expound upon those teachings which he did in the Article on Marriage.

You have failed to see that the receiving of this teaching is a perfect match to the canonization process that the Lord revealed. It was not Joseph's calling to teach the revelations, which is why the Lord told him to pretend to no other gift. It is also signed and affirmed by 4 PSR's.

This pattern is also defined nicely in 2 Nephi 3, where we learn that Joseph is to receive the word and Sydney is to declare the word. This is how the Lord implements the law of witnesses, which is also why we should distrust the Nauvoo doctrines that the Lord never provided witnesses for.

By the way, your slavery example does not fit. Slavery was always wrong, the Lord sometimes has to mitigate bad circumstances that men have made into law. Monogamy was a correct principle from the beginning.
I'm familiar with Oliver Cowdery's role.

As for slavery, I believe what Joseph Smith taught in the letter in the Messenger and Advocate about it.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

Post by Shawn Henry »

LDS Watchman wrote: October 18th, 2022, 12:54 pm I'm familiar with Oliver Cowdery's role.
You-re familiar with his role as described by the Lord, but you just feel the Lord must have meant for that role to end prior to 1835 and it is appropriate to disparage that role accordingly? You're not making sense here. This is Oliver, the man who faithfully fulfilled his calling to the degree that the Lord appeared to him in the Kirtland Temple in 1836.

Joan7
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Re: Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

Post by Joan7 »

Shawn Henry wrote: October 18th, 2022, 1:53 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: October 18th, 2022, 12:54 pm I'm familiar with Oliver Cowdery's role.
You-re familiar with his role as described by the Lord, but you just feel the Lord must have meant for that role to end prior to 1835 and it is appropriate to disparage that role accordingly? You're not making sense here. This is Oliver, the man who faithfully fulfilled his calling to the degree that the Lord appeared to him in the Kirtland Temple in 1836.
Hey Shawn, did you know that section 110 was not published until 1876? The foundation of the plural marriage philosophy in Section 132 is rooted in the idea that Elijah appear to Joseph and Oliver and they saw Elijah. As prophesied, he had come back and turn the hearts of the fathers to the children. Those verses in Malachi are a critical foundation to the polygamy doctrine.

It is worth noting, that Joseph Smith gave a number of talks about Elijah. Every single one he gave after that Kirtland visitation, referred to Elijah's coming as a future event. Even in 1844 he referred to it in terms of the future.

So, where is that record from? What does it look like? The Joseph Smith papers shows there is a very suspicious sheet of white paper, at the end of the journal, upon which is written the Elijah visitation. https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... 5-1836/196

The Church claims Warren Cowdery was the scribe for the entire journal entry, pages 191-193. However, with close comparisons between the handwriting on the first two pages vs the apparently inserted page, there are distinctive differences. For example the letter "d," when at the end of the word. On the first two pages which we are using for reference, the "d" is circled over the top of the word. While the last page, words that end with "d" are drawn with a swishing down to right line of the d, underneath the letter and going underneath the word. Two different writers wrote the entry for that Sunday.

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Re: Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

Post by LDS Watchman »

Kit-OTW wrote: October 18th, 2022, 2:36 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: October 18th, 2022, 1:53 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: October 18th, 2022, 12:54 pm I'm familiar with Oliver Cowdery's role.
You-re familiar with his role as described by the Lord, but you just feel the Lord must have meant for that role to end prior to 1835 and it is appropriate to disparage that role accordingly? You're not making sense here. This is Oliver, the man who faithfully fulfilled his calling to the degree that the Lord appeared to him in the Kirtland Temple in 1836.
Hey Shawn, did you know that section 110 was not published until 1876? The foundation of the plural marriage philosophy in Section 132 is rooted in the idea that Elijah appear to Joseph and Oliver and they saw Elijah. As prophesied, he had come back and turn the hearts of the fathers to the children. Those verses in Malachi are a critical foundation to the polygamy doctrine.

It is worth noting, that Joseph Smith gave a number of talks about Elijah. Every single one he gave after that Kirtland visitation, referred to Elijah's coming as a future event. Even in 1844 he referred to it in terms of the future.

So, where is that record from? What does it look like? The Joseph Smith papers shows there is a very suspicious sheet of white paper, at the end of the journal, upon which is written the Elijah visitation. https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... 5-1836/196

The Church claims Warren Cowdery was the scribe for the entire journal entry, pages 191-193. However, with close comparisons between the handwriting on the first two pages vs the apparently inserted page, there are distinctive differences. For example the letter "d," when at the end of the word. On the first two pages which we are using for reference, the "d" is circled over the top of the word. While the last page, words that end with "d" are drawn with a swishing down to right line of the d, underneath the letter and going underneath the word. Two different writers wrote the entry for that Sunday.
Don't listen to old Rob Fotheringham. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

Joseph Smith wrote a letter to the church September 6, 1942. The letter is now section 128.

Here's part of that letter:

17 And again, in connection with this quotation I will give you a quotation from one of the prophets, who had his eye fixed on the restoration of the priesthood, the glories to be revealed in the last days, and in an especial manner this most glorious of all subjects belonging to the everlasting gospel, namely, the baptism for the dead; for Malachi says, last chapter, verses 5th and 6th: Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
18 I might have rendered a plainer translation to this, but it is sufficiently plain to suit my purpose as it stands. It is sufficient to know, in this case, that the earth will be smitten with a curse unless there is a welding link of some kind or other between the fathers and the children, upon some subject or other—and behold what is that subject? It is the baptism for the dead. For we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect. Neither can they nor we be made perfect without those who have died in the gospel also; for it is necessary in the ushering in of the dispensation of the fulness of times, which dispensation is now beginning to usher in, that a whole and complete and perfect union, and welding together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and glories should take place, and be revealed from the days of Adam even to the present time. And not only this, but those things which never have been revealed from the foundation of the world, but have been kept hid from the wise and prudent, shall be revealed unto babes and sucklings in this, the dispensation of the fulness of times.

Who did Joseph Smith say would return to restore the authority to perform baptisms for the dead? Elijah

Was the church performing baptisms for the dead at this point in time? Yes they were.

So by default Elijah had already come.

Case closed.

Joan7
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Re: Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

Post by Joan7 »

LDS Watchman wrote: October 18th, 2022, 7:34 pm
Kit-OTW wrote: October 18th, 2022, 2:36 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: October 18th, 2022, 1:53 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: October 18th, 2022, 12:54 pm I'm familiar with Oliver Cowdery's role.
You-re familiar with his role as described by the Lord, but you just feel the Lord must have meant for that role to end prior to 1835 and it is appropriate to disparage that role accordingly? You're not making sense here. This is Oliver, the man who faithfully fulfilled his calling to the degree that the Lord appeared to him in the Kirtland Temple in 1836.
Hey Shawn, did you know that section 110 was not published until 1876? The foundation of the plural marriage philosophy in Section 132 is rooted in the idea that Elijah appear to Joseph and Oliver and they saw Elijah. As prophesied, he had come back and turn the hearts of the fathers to the children. Those verses in Malachi are a critical foundation to the polygamy doctrine.

It is worth noting, that Joseph Smith gave a number of talks about Elijah. Every single one he gave after that Kirtland visitation, referred to Elijah's coming as a future event. Even in 1844 he referred to it in terms of the future.

So, where is that record from? What does it look like? The Joseph Smith papers shows there is a very suspicious sheet of white paper, at the end of the journal, upon which is written the Elijah visitation. https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... 5-1836/196

The Church claims Warren Cowdery was the scribe for the entire journal entry, pages 191-193. However, with close comparisons between the handwriting on the first two pages vs the apparently inserted page, there are distinctive differences. For example the letter "d," when at the end of the word. On the first two pages which we are using for reference, the "d" is circled over the top of the word. While the last page, words that end with "d" are drawn with a swishing down to right line of the d, underneath the letter and going underneath the word. Two different writers wrote the entry for that Sunday.
Don't listen to old Rob Fotheringham. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

Joseph Smith wrote a letter to the church September 6, 1942. The letter is now section 128.

Here's part of that letter:

17 And again, in connection with this quotation I will give you a quotation from one of the prophets, who had his eye fixed on the restoration of the priesthood, the glories to be revealed in the last days, and in an especial manner this most glorious of all subjects belonging to the everlasting gospel, namely, the baptism for the dead; for Malachi says, last chapter, verses 5th and 6th: Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
18 I might have rendered a plainer translation to this, but it is sufficiently plain to suit my purpose as it stands. It is sufficient to know, in this case, that the earth will be smitten with a curse unless there is a welding link of some kind or other between the fathers and the children, upon some subject or other—and behold what is that subject? It is the baptism for the dead. For we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect. Neither can they nor we be made perfect without those who have died in the gospel also; for it is necessary in the ushering in of the dispensation of the fulness of times, which dispensation is now beginning to usher in, that a whole and complete and perfect union, and welding together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and glories should take place, and be revealed from the days of Adam even to the present time. And not only this, but those things which never have been revealed from the foundation of the world, but have been kept hid from the wise and prudent, shall be revealed unto babes and sucklings in this, the dispensation of the fulness of times.

Who did Joseph Smith say would return to restore the authority to perform baptisms for the dead? Elijah

Was the church performing baptisms for the dead at this point in time? Yes they were.

So by default Elijah had already come.

Case closed.
I didn't learn what I wrote from Fotheringham. I learned by investigating myself.

The case is not closed. Because, Joseph would not have consistently referred to Elijah's coming as a future event, even up till the year he died. Furthermore, you have not addressed the different handwriting in the script of the journal from which is drawn section 110. To be an honest researcher, you need to account for everything, not discard stuff that doesn't fit your theory.

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Re: Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

Post by LDS Watchman »

Kit-OTW wrote: October 18th, 2022, 8:24 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: October 18th, 2022, 7:34 pm
Kit-OTW wrote: October 18th, 2022, 2:36 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: October 18th, 2022, 1:53 pm
You-re familiar with his role as described by the Lord, but you just feel the Lord must have meant for that role to end prior to 1835 and it is appropriate to disparage that role accordingly? You're not making sense here. This is Oliver, the man who faithfully fulfilled his calling to the degree that the Lord appeared to him in the Kirtland Temple in 1836.
Hey Shawn, did you know that section 110 was not published until 1876? The foundation of the plural marriage philosophy in Section 132 is rooted in the idea that Elijah appear to Joseph and Oliver and they saw Elijah. As prophesied, he had come back and turn the hearts of the fathers to the children. Those verses in Malachi are a critical foundation to the polygamy doctrine.

It is worth noting, that Joseph Smith gave a number of talks about Elijah. Every single one he gave after that Kirtland visitation, referred to Elijah's coming as a future event. Even in 1844 he referred to it in terms of the future.

So, where is that record from? What does it look like? The Joseph Smith papers shows there is a very suspicious sheet of white paper, at the end of the journal, upon which is written the Elijah visitation. https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... 5-1836/196

The Church claims Warren Cowdery was the scribe for the entire journal entry, pages 191-193. However, with close comparisons between the handwriting on the first two pages vs the apparently inserted page, there are distinctive differences. For example the letter "d," when at the end of the word. On the first two pages which we are using for reference, the "d" is circled over the top of the word. While the last page, words that end with "d" are drawn with a swishing down to right line of the d, underneath the letter and going underneath the word. Two different writers wrote the entry for that Sunday.
Don't listen to old Rob Fotheringham. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

Joseph Smith wrote a letter to the church September 6, 1942. The letter is now section 128.

Here's part of that letter:

17 And again, in connection with this quotation I will give you a quotation from one of the prophets, who had his eye fixed on the restoration of the priesthood, the glories to be revealed in the last days, and in an especial manner this most glorious of all subjects belonging to the everlasting gospel, namely, the baptism for the dead; for Malachi says, last chapter, verses 5th and 6th: Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
18 I might have rendered a plainer translation to this, but it is sufficiently plain to suit my purpose as it stands. It is sufficient to know, in this case, that the earth will be smitten with a curse unless there is a welding link of some kind or other between the fathers and the children, upon some subject or other—and behold what is that subject? It is the baptism for the dead. For we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect. Neither can they nor we be made perfect without those who have died in the gospel also; for it is necessary in the ushering in of the dispensation of the fulness of times, which dispensation is now beginning to usher in, that a whole and complete and perfect union, and welding together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and glories should take place, and be revealed from the days of Adam even to the present time. And not only this, but those things which never have been revealed from the foundation of the world, but have been kept hid from the wise and prudent, shall be revealed unto babes and sucklings in this, the dispensation of the fulness of times.

Who did Joseph Smith say would return to restore the authority to perform baptisms for the dead? Elijah

Was the church performing baptisms for the dead at this point in time? Yes they were.

So by default Elijah had already come.

Case closed.
I didn't learn what I wrote from Fotheringham. I learned by investigating myself.

The case is not closed. Because, Joseph would not have consistently referred to Elijah's coming as a future event, even up till the year he died. Furthermore, you have not addressed the different handwriting in the script of the journal from which is drawn section 110. To be an honest researcher, you need to account for everything, not discard stuff that doesn't fit your theory.
I don't believe that the handwriting is actually different. This account was also included in the 1843 history manuscript so it wasn't a later innovation.

According to the verses I quoted in D&C 128, either Elijah had already come or the church was performing baptisms for the dead without the authority do so. Per D&C 124 and other statements by Joseph Smith, the church clearly had the authority which means Elijah had already come.

As for Joseph Smith also talking about the coming of Elijah as a future event in Nauvoo, the name Elijah is a title for a Messenger, it doesn't refer exclusively to Elijah the Tishbite.

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Shawn Henry wrote: October 18th, 2022, 1:53 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: October 18th, 2022, 12:54 pm I'm familiar with Oliver Cowdery's role.
You-re familiar with his role as described by the Lord, but you just feel the Lord must have meant for that role to end prior to 1835 and it is appropriate to disparage that role accordingly? You're not making sense here. This is Oliver, the man who faithfully fulfilled his calling to the degree that the Lord appeared to him in the Kirtland Temple in 1836.
I haven't disparaged his role at all. A statement of belief at one point in time isn't the binding word of God for all time.

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Kit-OTW wrote: October 18th, 2022, 8:24 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: October 18th, 2022, 7:34 pm
Kit-OTW wrote: October 18th, 2022, 2:36 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: October 18th, 2022, 1:53 pm
You-re familiar with his role as described by the Lord, but you just feel the Lord must have meant for that role to end prior to 1835 and it is appropriate to disparage that role accordingly? You're not making sense here. This is Oliver, the man who faithfully fulfilled his calling to the degree that the Lord appeared to him in the Kirtland Temple in 1836.
Hey Shawn, did you know that section 110 was not published until 1876? The foundation of the plural marriage philosophy in Section 132 is rooted in the idea that Elijah appear to Joseph and Oliver and they saw Elijah. As prophesied, he had come back and turn the hearts of the fathers to the children. Those verses in Malachi are a critical foundation to the polygamy doctrine.

It is worth noting, that Joseph Smith gave a number of talks about Elijah. Every single one he gave after that Kirtland visitation, referred to Elijah's coming as a future event. Even in 1844 he referred to it in terms of the future.

So, where is that record from? What does it look like? The Joseph Smith papers shows there is a very suspicious sheet of white paper, at the end of the journal, upon which is written the Elijah visitation. https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... 5-1836/196

The Church claims Warren Cowdery was the scribe for the entire journal entry, pages 191-193. However, with close comparisons between the handwriting on the first two pages vs the apparently inserted page, there are distinctive differences. For example the letter "d," when at the end of the word. On the first two pages which we are using for reference, the "d" is circled over the top of the word. While the last page, words that end with "d" are drawn with a swishing down to right line of the d, underneath the letter and going underneath the word. Two different writers wrote the entry for that Sunday.
Don't listen to old Rob Fotheringham. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

Joseph Smith wrote a letter to the church September 6, 1942. The letter is now section 128.

Here's part of that letter:

17 And again, in connection with this quotation I will give you a quotation from one of the prophets, who had his eye fixed on the restoration of the priesthood, the glories to be revealed in the last days, and in an especial manner this most glorious of all subjects belonging to the everlasting gospel, namely, the baptism for the dead; for Malachi says, last chapter, verses 5th and 6th: Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
18 I might have rendered a plainer translation to this, but it is sufficiently plain to suit my purpose as it stands. It is sufficient to know, in this case, that the earth will be smitten with a curse unless there is a welding link of some kind or other between the fathers and the children, upon some subject or other—and behold what is that subject? It is the baptism for the dead. For we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect. Neither can they nor we be made perfect without those who have died in the gospel also; for it is necessary in the ushering in of the dispensation of the fulness of times, which dispensation is now beginning to usher in, that a whole and complete and perfect union, and welding together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and glories should take place, and be revealed from the days of Adam even to the present time. And not only this, but those things which never have been revealed from the foundation of the world, but have been kept hid from the wise and prudent, shall be revealed unto babes and sucklings in this, the dispensation of the fulness of times.

Who did Joseph Smith say would return to restore the authority to perform baptisms for the dead? Elijah

Was the church performing baptisms for the dead at this point in time? Yes they were.

So by default Elijah had already come.

Case closed.
I didn't learn what I wrote from Fotheringham. I learned by investigating myself.

The case is not closed. Because, Joseph would not have consistently referred to Elijah's coming as a future event, even up till the year he died. Furthermore, you have not addressed the different handwriting in the script of the journal from which is drawn section 110. To be an honest researcher, you need to account for everything, not discard stuff that doesn't fit your theory.
Why did W. W. Phelps reference the event in a letter to his wife the week that it happened?

And why was it included in the manuscript history of the Church a year before Joseph died?

Not to mention the fact that it’s literally right there in Joseph’s journal.

Clearly it happened.

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LDS Watchman wrote: October 18th, 2022, 10:56 pm I haven't disparaged his role at all. A statement of belief at one point in time isn't the binding word of God for all time.
The Lord is quite clear that he does not vary from that which he says.

That's Joseph's entire premise of recognizing a false revelation, by its contradicting a previous one.

Your premise seems to be that God at times does not have the foresight to see that he is going to change his word.

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Shawn Henry wrote: October 19th, 2022, 7:25 am
LDS Watchman wrote: October 18th, 2022, 10:56 pm I haven't disparaged his role at all. A statement of belief at one point in time isn't the binding word of God for all time.
The Lord is quite clear that he does not vary from that which he says.

That's Joseph's entire premise of recognizing a false revelation, by its contradicting a previous one.

Your premise seems to be that God at times does not have the foresight to see that he is going to change his word.
The old D&C 101 wasn't a revelation. It was statement of belief. It wasn't God's irrevocable word for all time in all ages.

Polygamy was practiced anciently by the righteous patriarchs, the fathers of the faithful, and Jacob 2:30 tells us that they had to have been commanded by God to do so and that God could/would command it again.
Last edited by LDS Watchman on October 19th, 2022, 7:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Shawn Henry
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Kit-OTW wrote: October 18th, 2022, 2:36 pm Hey Shawn, did you know that section 110 was not published until 1876? The foundation of the plural marriage philosophy in Section 132 is rooted in the idea that Elijah appear to Joseph and Oliver and they saw Elijah. As prophesied, he had come back and turn the hearts of the fathers to the children. Those verses in Malachi are a critical foundation to the polygamy doctrine.
Yeah, serious chain of custody issues there, right? Neither Joseph nor Oliver claim it, we have an entire decade or rather the rest of their lives and they never mention it. The only trusted source being the fact that Warren was Oliver's brother. Every word shall be established in the mouth of two or three witnesses, except that one.

I acknowledge the issues with all the 1876 additions and discount most of them, but some may indeed be from Joseph. Here we have a gray area, things that might be true, but are not the word of the Lord, because of the lack of witnesses.

I believe the coming of Elijah is clearly a future event, at least primarily. He could have come as a pre-fulfillment or foreshadowing of his future coming.

The entire PoGP falls into the later additions problem. I think this is an example of the Lord saying in Malachi that he will curse our blessings. Yes, the Book of Abraham is true, that's the blessing. Yes, it's origins are dubious and cause members to lose faith, that is the curse. Joseph knew not to canonize it, so it was BY who brought the BoA curse upon us.

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LDS Watchman wrote: October 19th, 2022, 7:40 am The old D&C 101 wasn't a revelation. It was statement of belief.
Bull S&*t!!

In the section I quoted you before, the Lord says that both Joseph and Oliver fulfill their roles "by the spirit". What spirit is that? The Holy Spirit! The spirit of revelation!!!!!!!!!

Despite not being a "Thus saith the Lord" revelation, it is clearly revelatory, done by "the spirit" through Oliver in his official position as Second Elder and on top of all that it is perfectly consistent with the Savior's own words delivered by Jacob.

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Shawn Henry wrote: October 19th, 2022, 7:58 am
LDS Watchman wrote: October 19th, 2022, 7:40 am The old D&C 101 wasn't a revelation. It was statement of belief.
Bull S&*t!!

In the section I quoted you before, the Lord says that both Joseph and Oliver fulfill their roles "by the spirit". What spirit is that? The Holy Spirit! The spirit of revelation!!!!!!!!!

Despite not being a "Thus saith the Lord" revelation, it is clearly revelatory, done by "the spirit" through Oliver in his official position as Second Elder and on top of all that it is perfectly consistent with the Savior's own words delivered by Jacob.
We're going in circles now. Not interested. Believe whatever the heck you want.

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Shawn Henry wrote: October 19th, 2022, 7:25 am
LDS Watchman wrote: October 18th, 2022, 10:56 pm I haven't disparaged his role at all. A statement of belief at one point in time isn't the binding word of God for all time.
The Lord is quite clear that he does not vary from that which he says.

That's Joseph's entire premise of recognizing a false revelation, by its contradicting a previous one.

Your premise seems to be that God at times does not have the foresight to see that he is going to change his word.
God never puts pen to paper Himself and records a revelation. Every revelation comes thru at minimum one filter before it is transmitted to someone else. Even when reading the scriptures, one must be receiving revelation to get the message God intended. Per scripture, upon this rock will He build His church.

If you recognize a false revelation by it contradicting a previous one, how do you know it was not the previous one that was false? Just by it being recorded in the past does not make something any truer. I suggest and logic dictates that the "revelation" that this is how to discern false revelation is itself a false revelation.

The Lord does not vary from that which He says. We as individuals and as a church vary by the amount of truth and light that we are ready to receive or can even comprehend. The gospel of Jesus Christ was quite different from the law of Moses. It did not invalidate the law of Moses rather it fulfilled it, but even so it was radically different. The word of the Lord went from an eye for an eye to love your enemies.

The first was an introductory teaching that if you do bad things to others, expect bad things to happen to you. This evolved to forgiving, mercy, and not seeking retribution for every bad thing that happens to us. God didn't change, but people did. As a whole they still killed Him for teaching it, but no sane person can say there wasn't a radical change. We believe that God will YET REVEAL many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God. And yes, there will be hidebound members who will protest, cry, and gnash their teeth that this does not match the old program, therefore it is false revelation, yada yada yada.

The person that each of us is reflects the sum total of what we have each received as "the word of the Lord". I 100% guarantee you that every single one of us has untruths that we hold to be the word of the Lord, and every single one of us has rejected some truth or other because it did not fit comfortably into our existing framework of knowledge. Some of that framework came from well-intentioned parents and teachers that were simply passing on false traditions, but they were doing their best. Sadly, there are also bad actors who for power, glory, or whatever reason introduce false revelation with ill-intent. More sadly, often we each put our trust in the arm of flesh (which can be our trust in our own brain's ability to logically work things out) rather than actually rely on the word of the Lord. I don't exclude myself from any of this, I do all of the above errors all the time despite spending a lifetime of doing my best to be a truth seeker.

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I'd add that I do definitely believe that scripture from time to time does exactly reflect God's word and will accurately. But those gems are mixed in with the corpus of what we CALL scripture, and even our scriptures themselves talk about the errors that have been introduced, so there really shouldn't be any argument about that.

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Original_Intent wrote: October 19th, 2022, 8:23 am I'd add that I do definitely believe that scripture from time to time does exactly reflect God's word and will accurately. But those gems are mixed in with the corpus of what we CALL scripture, and even our scriptures themselves talk about the errors that have been introduced, so there really shouldn't be any argument about that.
For the most part, I agree with your first post. I would say, however, that we have been given a foundation and it is that foundation that we can't undermine. I understand your point that we don't know for sure what was meant to be foundational. Of course, just because something came first (the Bible) doesn't mean it is the most accurate.

I believe the BoM to be that foundation. The only thing more spot on than that are the actual words of Christ throughout the D&C.

If I or Joseph have to amend that statement to "a former true revelation", then so be it. I think we all know what is being said, but you do make a good point.

If we could all agree on what was an actual revelation, we wouldn't be having these discussions though, right?

I think the pattern to discern what that foundation is, is embedded throughout scripture.

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LDS Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 12:51 pmAgreed, but you would think that if God wanted the world to know all about our Heavenly Mother the Book of Mormon would at least have a few clear references to her.
Feminine aspects of divinity are throughout scriptures. They simply aren’t labeled “feminine,” Heavenly Mother, etc.

Image

Consider out of the +800 aspects attributed to God in just the Bible, many feminine, how ideas of God evolved from being tyrannical to more compassionate. Job was a major turning point. And consider Jacob dared wrestle with his incorrect ideas of God.

Kinda cocky for any of us to presume to know all about the God of truth and all reality. But one thing we do know is that God created us - male AND female - after the image of God - male AND female.

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Original_Intent wrote: October 19th, 2022, 8:23 am I'd add that I do definitely believe that scripture from time to time does exactly reflect God's word and will accurately. But those gems are mixed in with the corpus of what we CALL scripture, and even our scriptures themselves talk about the errors that have been introduced, so there really shouldn't be any argument about that.
Yup.

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I am very familiar with your situation, I'm new here too.

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 8:07 am
Mamabear wrote: October 8th, 2022, 7:01 am I agree. Tired of hearing about heavenly mother.
I'm a bit shocked you said that. You're "tired" of wanting to know more about our Mother who created you, who has been set aside as nothing from almost the beginning? People are wanting to know more about Her and you're "tired" of hearing about Her? She's a God in all glory and respect for the word God, but I'm still sure it tugs at Her heart when people don't want to know Her.
It seems to me that Heavenly Mother and the doctrine on the family are higher doctrines that Heavenly Father didn't give earlier generations. I suspect that the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon and other scriptures will teach us more about them when we are truly ready. I don't think many of us are ready to learn about someone as sacred as Heavenly Mother. I'm not.

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Atrasado wrote: November 29th, 2022, 9:56 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 8:07 am
Mamabear wrote: October 8th, 2022, 7:01 am I agree. Tired of hearing about heavenly mother.
I'm a bit shocked you said that. You're "tired" of wanting to know more about our Mother who created you, who has been set aside as nothing from almost the beginning? People are wanting to know more about Her and you're "tired" of hearing about Her? She's a God in all glory and respect for the word God, but I'm still sure it tugs at Her heart when people don't want to know Her.
It seems to me that Heavenly Mother and the doctrine on the family are higher doctrines that Heavenly Father didn't give earlier generations. I suspect that the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon and other scriptures will teach us more about them when we are truly ready. I don't think many of us are ready to learn about someone as sacred as Heavenly Mother. I'm not.
I'm gonna laugh out loud if the "sealed" portions of the BoM were simply "sealed" in a way for Mormon and his son to preserve the unwritten (aka blank) sheets of metal from getting damaged.

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: November 29th, 2022, 1:19 pm
Atrasado wrote: November 29th, 2022, 9:56 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 8:07 am
Mamabear wrote: October 8th, 2022, 7:01 am I agree. Tired of hearing about heavenly mother.
I'm a bit shocked you said that. You're "tired" of wanting to know more about our Mother who created you, who has been set aside as nothing from almost the beginning? People are wanting to know more about Her and you're "tired" of hearing about Her? She's a God in all glory and respect for the word God, but I'm still sure it tugs at Her heart when people don't want to know Her.
It seems to me that Heavenly Mother and the doctrine on the family are higher doctrines that Heavenly Father didn't give earlier generations. I suspect that the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon and other scriptures will teach us more about them when we are truly ready. I don't think many of us are ready to learn about someone as sacred as Heavenly Mother. I'm not.
I'm gonna laugh out loud if the "sealed" portions of the BoM were simply "sealed" in a way for Mormon and his son to preserve the unwritten (aka blank) sheets of metal from getting damaged.
Imagine 😂😂

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