Zarahemla

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dennis
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Zarahemla

Post by dennis »

Zarahemla the river which we call the Magdalena. On this river, not a great distance from the mouth thereof, in what is now termed the United States of Columbia, they built their great capital city. They also discovered another nation that already possessed that country called the people of Zarahemla. They also were a branch of Israel who came out from the city of Jerusalem five hundred and eighty-nine years before the coming of Christ, in the eleventh year of the reign of Zedekiah, at the time he was taken captive, and the Jews were carried into Babylon. One of the sons of Zedekiah, King of Judah, being commanded of the Lord, left the city of Jerusalem with a colony, who were brought forth and landed north of the Isthmus and journeyed southward, passed through the narrow neck of land which we term the Isthmus into the United States of Columbia, and formed their settlements there, and when discovered by the Nephites had dwelt there near four hundred years.
The Nephites and the people of Zarahemla united together and formed a great and powerful nation, occupying the lands south of the Isthmus for many hundreds of miles, and also from the Pacific on the west to the Atlantic on the east, spreading all through the country
http://www.josephsmithfoundation.org/jo ... Vu9we_hJBM

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marc
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Re: Zarahemla

Post by marc »

That entire article is certainly interesting. Here's a fascinating video in a series of fascinating videos on the "Genesis 49ers" Youtube channel. Peru is just south of Colombia:

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marc
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Re: Zarahemla

Post by marc »

I think many Sephardic Jews were led to various locations in the Americas. I know many people believe they thrived in Central or Southern America and many believe the Heartland model. I have Sephardic Jewish ancestry and also substantial Indigenous American ancestry from Central America. With all my studies and research over the decades, I am still truly at a loss as to who and where the Lamanites are today and how thinly they're spread out.

This question plagues my everyday thoughts and prayers: How can the gentiles or anybody seek to reclaim these forgotten Jews (Nephi's words) if nobody knows where or how to look? But the Lord tells us that in time Jacob will flourish in the wilderness and the Lamanites will blossom as the rose. The fact this happens in the wilderness tells me there will be some kind of calling/leading out and why I have shared this passage again and again and blogged about it:

D&C 103:15 Behold, I say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power;
16 Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.
17 For ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be led out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm.
18 And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be.
19 Therefore, let not your hearts faint, for I say not unto you as I said unto your fathers: Mine angel shall go up before you, but not my presence.
20 But I say unto you: Mine angels shall go up before you, and also my presence, and in time ye shall possess the goodly land.

Bronco73idi
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Post by Bronco73idi »

marc wrote: November 24th, 2022, 7:37 pm I think many Sephardic Jews were led to various locations in the Americas. I know many people believe they thrived in Central or Southern America and many believe the Heartland model. I have Sephardic Jewish ancestry and also substantial Indigenous American ancestry from Central America. With all my studies and research over the decades, I am still truly at a loss as to who and where the Lamanites are today and how thinly they're spread out.

This question plagues my everyday thoughts and prayers: How can the gentiles or anybody seek to reclaim these forgotten Jews (Nephi's words) if nobody knows where or how to look? But the Lord tells us that in time Jacob will flourish in the wilderness and the Lamanites will blossom as the rose. The fact this happens in the wilderness tells me there will be some kind of calling/leading out and why I have shared this passage again and again and blogged about it:

D&C 103:15 Behold, I say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power;
16 Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.
17 For ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be led out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm.
18 And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be.
19 Therefore, let not your hearts faint, for I say not unto you as I said unto your fathers: Mine angel shall go up before you, but not my presence.
20 But I say unto you: Mine angels shall go up before you, and also my presence, and in time ye shall possess the goodly land.
Exodus 20:24-26 tells us that the Mayan temples were not of the law. We have a painting in many stake centers of the lord talking to the Nephites after the great destruction, in that painting the artist put a Mayan temple in the background. I wonder, will the man who authorized that painting to go through out the church be saved in ignorance?

larsenb
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Re: Zarahemla

Post by larsenb »

dennis wrote: November 24th, 2022, 5:51 pm Zarahemla the river which we call the Magdalena. On this river, not a great distance from the mouth thereof, in what is now termed the United States of Columbia, they built their great capital city. They also discovered another nation that already possessed that country called the people of Zarahemla. They also were a branch of Israel who came out from the city of Jerusalem five hundred and eighty-nine years before the coming of Christ, in the eleventh year of the reign of Zedekiah, at the time he was taken captive, and the Jews were carried into Babylon. One of the sons of Zedekiah, King of Judah, being commanded of the Lord, left the city of Jerusalem with a colony, who were brought forth and landed north of the Isthmus and journeyed southward, passed through the narrow neck of land which we term the Isthmus into the United States of Columbia, and formed their settlements there, and when discovered by the Nephites had dwelt there near four hundred years.
The Nephites and the people of Zarahemla united together and formed a great and powerful nation, occupying the lands south of the Isthmus for many hundreds of miles, and also from the Pacific on the west to the Atlantic on the east, spreading all through the country
http://www.josephsmithfoundation.org/jo ... Vu9we_hJBM
Wow! Orson Pratt sure seemed sure of himself on this topic. Would have loved to see him flesh out the full reasoning for his conclusions.

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BenMcCrea
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Post by BenMcCrea »

The Lord indicated where Zarahemla was located and it’s not Colombia. Not even the same continent.

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madvin
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Post by madvin »

BenMcCrea wrote: November 26th, 2022, 1:50 pm The Lord indicated where Zarahemla was located and it’s not Colombia. Not even the same continent.
That's right, as I remember it, the temple plot discovered directly west of Nauvoo, across the Mississippi, is said to have been the Temple lot at Zarahemla. That would make Zarahemla in eastern Iowa.

larsenb
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Re: Zarahemla

Post by larsenb »

madvin wrote: November 26th, 2022, 2:13 pm
BenMcCrea wrote: November 26th, 2022, 1:50 pm The Lord indicated where Zarahemla was located and it’s not Colombia. Not even the same continent.
That's right, as I remember it, the temple plot discovered directly west of Nauvoo, across the Mississippi, is said to have been the Temple lot at Zarahemla. That would make Zarahemla in eastern Iowa.
To think that the Lord indicated this site was the original Nephite Zarahemla is a strict conjecture. A comforting one, though, for believers in the Heartland model.

silverado
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Post by silverado »

About Moroni appearing to Joseph Smith, he said, "He (Moroni) said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of THIS continent...."

larsenb
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Re: Zarahemla

Post by larsenb »

silverado wrote: November 26th, 2022, 4:07 pm About Moroni appearing to Joseph Smith, he said, "He (Moroni) said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of THIS continent...."
The North American Continent extends all the way to the southern tip of the Isthmus of Panama. So in this sense, the statement could be thought exclude South America.

However, as I recall, back in the near-1830s, the word continent could refer to the whole western hemisphere.


larsenb
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Re: Zarahemla

Post by larsenb »

There you go: "4. Continuous; connected; not interrupted." North and South America are at least "continuous and connected".

I read an article, probably from BMAF (Book of Mormon Archaelogy Foundation) that went into the use of the word continent as a land mass, which made the case that the geographical usage of the word was commonly applied to the Western Hemisphere back in early 1800s.

larsenb
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Re: Zarahemla

Post by larsenb »

larsenb wrote: November 26th, 2022, 11:40 pm
There you go: "4. Continuous; connected; not interrupted." North and South America are at least "continuous and connected".

I read an article, probably from BMAF (Book of Mormon Archaelogy Foundation) that went into the use of the word continent as a land mass, which made the case that the geographical usage of the word was commonly applied to the Western Hemisphere back in early 1800s.
OK, I found a discussion of just how the word continent was interpreted to include the entire Western Hemisphere. It's in an article from Book of Mormon Central, titled: The “Heartland Model”: The Rest of the Story,; 2016; by Joe V. Andersen and Ted Dee Stoddard. Below is an excerpt that discusses the issue:
What did Joseph Smith understand the term “this continent” to mean?

In 1820, the prevailing view of most of the world, as well as much of the United States, including New York where Joseph Smith lived, was that North and South America comprised one continent.[15] That view was clearly supported by the dictionary definition of America from Noah Webster’s 1828 dictionary—just two years before the Book of Mormon was published:

One of the great continents, first discovered by Sebastian Cabot, June 11, O.S. 1498, and by Columbus, or Christoval Colon, Aug. 1, the same year. It extends from the eightieth degree of North, to the fifty-fourth degree of South Latitude; and from the thirty-fifth to the one hundred and fifty-sixth degree of Longitude West from Greenwich, being about nine thousand miles in length. Its breadth at Darien is narrowed to about forty-five miles, but at the northern extremity is nearly four thousand miles. From Darien to the North, the continent is called North America, and to the South, it is called South America.

Therefore, Book of Mormon analysts must conclude that Moroni and Joseph Smith understood that “this continent” included both North and South America. Further, analysts must also conclude that North and South America as “a continent” is “the land of promise,” or Zion, which, according to the Book of Mormon, is “the land choice above all other lands” (see, for example, 1 Nephi 7:13, 1 Nephi 13:30, 2 Nephi 1:5).

This understanding and conclusion were specifically advocated by Brigham Young on August 18, 1844, not long after the martyrdom of Joseph Smith:

Joseph has always been preserved from his enemies, until now, but he has sealed his testimony with his blood, and his testament is now in force. While the testator lived it was all in his hands, but now he is dead. . . . I will give you the key. North and South America is Zion. . . . I give you this as a key. You may go all over North and South America and build up stakes when the time comes. The whole continent of America must be organized into districts and presiding elders appointed over each district: the time has come when all things must be set in order.

Joseph Smith made almost identical remarks in the April conference of 1844. At that time, he said, “You know there has been great discussion in relation to Zion—where it is, and where the gathering of the dispensation is, and which I am now going to tell you. The prophets have spoken and written upon it; but I will make a proclamation that will cover a broader ground. The whole of America is Zion itself from north to south.

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Post by Atrasado »

My personal opinion is that Lehi landed somewhere in the southern part of the United States. Probably around Alabama. The Nephites migrated north several times and eventually settled in the Ohio River valley and spread from there.

In Heleman 3 it states:
8 And it came to pass that they did multiply and spread, and did go forth from the land southward to the land northward, and did spread insomuch that they began to cover the face of the whole earth, from the sea south to the sea north, from the sea west to the sea east.
There is only one place in the world that has four "seas" surrounding land--the Great Lakes region.

Also, civilizations didn't travel as far in ancient days. Individuals did, caravans did, but whole nations rarely moved very far very quickly.

When Israel was taken captive they were only moved about 700 miles and that was a long ways. The original journey that Elder Pratt purposes for Nephi and his group fleeing is about 1,700 miles over terrain that is about 100 times more difficult than Jerusalem to Babylon. The next journey to Central America is about as far and that terrain isn't difficult, it's impossible. There still aren't any roads connecting Columbia and Panama.

If the Nephites had gone from Chile to the Amazon there would have been no wars between the Lamanites and Nephites for three reasons. First, the Lamanites wouldn't have found the Nephites. Second, there isn't enough hate in the world to get a large army to walk from Chile to Peru or Brazil. Third, all, or almost all of the Nephites would have died during the original journey. You don't just walk with women, children, and babies on that journey. It's like the fire swamp from the Princess Bride, but on steroids. Living in Chile would give someone zero ideas on how to survive in a rain forest.

Nowadays, try to find a way to walk from Chile to New York. Google maps will tell you it can't find a route. That's because traversing Central America and parts of South America is so difficult. It's been done, but so rarely that people write books about it when they do it. It's about 7,380 miles walking from Santiago, Chile to Palmyra, New York and if a Lamanite king had tried to get an army to walk from South America to New York he wouldn't have been king for long. Alexander the Great would have stayed in Macedonia if he had had to deal with that terrain.

So, I guess you could say that I believe in the heartland model. It's the only one that makes sense to me. Of course, I suspect there were pre-adamites and I believe in giants and bigfoots so what do I know?

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dennis
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Post by dennis »

please explain how Lehi could get in a boat leave Yemen sail across the Pacific ocean and land in Alabama! Why.... of course he had a flying boat..... Kontiki in the 1960' s has already demonstrated the wind and ocean currents take a boat to the coast of Chile!!! Nephi left Chile and went to Peru calling where he settled the land of Nephi..the the first temple he built is in Pachacamac. I have been there... In the days of King Mosiah they went north to Colombia and discovered the Mulecites in the land of Zarahemla on the banks of the river Magdalena, or sidon the only large river in So. America that runs north into the sea. Mulec came across the Atlantic leaving Jerusalem and ending up in Panama. same route as Colombus. they have actually found his burial site! and special artifact he brought with him. some day I may post more about it

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dennis wrote: November 27th, 2022, 11:05 am please explain how Lehi could get in a boat leave Yemen sail across the Pacific ocean and land in Alabama! Why.... of course he had a flying boat..... Kontiki in the 1960' s has already demonstrated the wind and ocean currents take a boat to the coast of Chile!!! Nephi left Chile and went to Peru calling where he settled the land of Nephi..the the first temple he built is in Pachacamac. I have been there... In the days of King Mosiah they went north to Colombia and discovered the Mulecites in the land of Zarahemla on the banks of the river Magdalena, or sidon the only large river in So. America that runs north into the sea. Mulec came across the Atlantic leaving Jerusalem and ending up in Panama. same route as Colombus. they have actually found his burial site! and special artifact he brought with him. some day I may post more about it
Nowhere does it say in the Book of Mormon that Nephi sailed across the Pacific. He could have gone around the Horn of Africa or Tierra del Fuego. That's what makes sense to me. It's ok if not everyone agrees with me.
Last edited by Atrasado on November 27th, 2022, 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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madvin
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Re: Zarahemla

Post by madvin »

Atrasado wrote: November 27th, 2022, 10:24 am My personal opinion is that Lehi landed somewhere in the southern part of the United States. Probably around Alabama. The Nephites migrated north several times and eventually settled in the Ohio River valley and spread from there.

In Heleman 3 it states:
8 And it came to pass that they did multiply and spread, and did go forth from the land southward to the land northward, and did spread insomuch that they began to cover the face of the whole earth, from the sea south to the sea north, from the sea west to the sea east.
There is only one place in the world that has four "seas" surrounding land--the Great Lakes region.

Also, civilizations didn't travel as far in ancient days. Individuals did, caravans did, but whole nations rarely moved very far very quickly.

When Israel was taken captive they were only moved about 700 miles and that was a long ways. The original journey that Elder Pratt purposes for Nephi and his group fleeing is about 1,700 miles over terrain that is about 100 times more difficult than Jerusalem to Babylon. The next journey to Central America is about as far and that terrain isn't difficult, it's impossible. There still aren't any roads connecting Columbia and Panama.

If the Nephites had gone from Chile to the Amazon there would have been no wars between the Lamanites and Nephites for three reasons. First, the Lamanites wouldn't have found the Nephites. Second, there isn't enough hate in the world to get a large army to walk from Chile to Peru or Brazil. Third, all, or almost all of the Nephites would have died during the original journey. You don't just walk with women, children, and babies on that journey. It's like the fire swamp from the Princess Bride, but on steroids. Living in Chile would give someone zero ideas on how to survive in a rain forest.

Nowadays, try to find a way to walk from Chile to New York. Google maps will tell you it can't find a route. That's because traversing Central America and parts of South America is so difficult. It's been done, but so rarely that people write books about it when they do it. It's about 7,380 miles walking from Santiago, Chile to Palmyra, New York and if a Lamanite king had tried to get an army to walk from South America to New York he wouldn't have been king for long. Alexander the Great would have stayed in Macedonia if he had had to deal with that terrain.

So, I guess you could say that I believe in the heartland model. It's the only one that makes sense to me. Of course, I suspect there were pre-adamites and I believe in giants and bigfoots so what do I know?
Wayne May, for one, makes a very convincing "argument" in favor of the Hopewell (heartland) model and he also surmised that the Lehi party landed in what is now Florida and gradually spread northward and westward eventually up into the great lakes region. He also makes the point that back then the waterways (rivers and such) were much larger and somewhat deeper therefore they did have much knowledge of boat building and waterway navigation. Most if not all BoM cities were built around waterways, very important in their commerce and travel.

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