Non-observance of Christmas

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ajax
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

Post by ajax »

Robin Hood wrote: December 16th, 2021, 12:55 pm
ajax wrote: December 16th, 2021, 8:25 am Heaven forbid giving gifts to loved ones, and celebrating in food and song.
Apparently so.
One thing I’ve learned is there will always be those who wish to suck the joy out of life, from the convid fear mongers, to the climate fear mongers, to the anti Christmas folk. :)

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Niemand
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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ajax wrote: December 16th, 2021, 2:49 pm
Niemand wrote: December 16th, 2021, 9:28 am
ajax wrote: December 16th, 2021, 8:25 am Heaven forbid giving gifts to loved ones, and celebrating in food and song. At one point the Puritans wanted to cancel Christmas. HL Mencken quipped: “Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.” Mormons are too far behind. Perhaps adding a little alcohol to the Christmas cider will loosen y’all up a bit.
The motto of Christmas should be moderation in all things. Instead we get people spending hundreds on their children, finding embarassing pictures of themselves kissing the secretary at the office party and barely being able to move for several days.

It's not about puritanism, it's about breaking the bank. Parents have to look after their children all year round. Blowing your cash all in one month means they'll suffer later on.
Nobody said anything about breaking the bank. And I could care less what others do, nor do seek after such rumors.
It's about one's personal choices. And yes, we are pressured into spending too much money all the time through advertising, social pressure and family.

You should see the charity shops around here in the days after. They get flooded with unwanted gifts.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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ajax wrote: December 16th, 2021, 3:09 pm
Robin Hood wrote: December 16th, 2021, 12:55 pm
ajax wrote: December 16th, 2021, 8:25 am Heaven forbid giving gifts to loved ones, and celebrating in food and song.
Apparently so.
One thing I’ve learned is there will always be those who wish to suck the joy out of life, from the convid fear mongers, to the climate fear mongers, to the anti Christmas folk. :)
I suggest you take it up with God.
He's very happy with us having a good time, just not by following pagan celebrations.

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ajax
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

Post by ajax »

Robin Hood wrote: December 16th, 2021, 3:32 pm
ajax wrote: December 16th, 2021, 3:09 pm
Robin Hood wrote: December 16th, 2021, 12:55 pm
ajax wrote: December 16th, 2021, 8:25 am Heaven forbid giving gifts to loved ones, and celebrating in food and song.
Apparently so.
One thing I’ve learned is there will always be those who wish to suck the joy out of life, from the convid fear mongers, to the climate fear mongers, to the anti Christmas folk. :)
I suggest you take it up with God.
He's very happy with us having a good time, just not by following pagan celebrations.
How do you know I haven’t? Because I’ve come to a different conclusion?

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Silver Pie
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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I am an observer. I have always enjoyed Christmas, even though I never believed in Santa and never taught my kids to believe in him.

At this point, it's just a reason to have a party consisting of 2 or 3 people. We do the same thing with other holidays, including St. Patrick's Day. Nothing to do with Christ (it's a pagan holiday, after all - plus my kids are not exactly religious). A meal. A couple of movies while we eat.

I don't have a problem with paganism, unless you count the orgy things.
I like evergreen trees and think there's nothing wrong with likening them to something like eternal life, or proof that God is there even during a person's darkest times.
I've never had a yule log, but like the idea.
I like sleigh bells even though I have never ridden in a real sleigh.

I like dorky Christmas movies. One of my favorites is The 12 Dates of Christmas, because the character turns into a selfless person at the end. No Santa, no Christ mentioned, but I like movies where a person's experiences turn them into a better person.

I like several Christmas movies that do their best to try to prove Santa is not made up. They never address the poor kids who don't get presents because their parents can't afford to be Santa. In fact, they overlook a lot. But I don't ask them to be what they cannot be, nor can I make other parents stop teaching their kids that the fat man is real.

I like traditional Christmas songs. Hearing Johnny Mathis at the store is a nice thing to me.

If it all disappeared and there was no such thing. * shrug * Oh, well. It isn't like life would cease.

As far as celebrating Christ's birth, I would like to figure something to do in April that shows respect and reverence for the Lord's birth. I just haven't figured out what.

Edited to add a very important word (not - these movies do their best to "prove" Santa is a real living man).
Last edited by Silver Pie on December 17th, 2021, 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Niemand
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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ajax wrote: December 16th, 2021, 3:09 pm
Robin Hood wrote: December 16th, 2021, 12:55 pm
ajax wrote: December 16th, 2021, 8:25 am Heaven forbid giving gifts to loved ones, and celebrating in food and song.
Apparently so.
One thing I’ve learned is there will always be those who wish to suck the joy out of life, from the convid fear mongers, to the climate fear mongers, to the anti Christmas folk. :)
As I point out, Christmas is a source of misery to many people. It sucks the joy out of life for many people, especially those who are alone. I know someone who volunteers for a well known phone line here (the Samaritans), and they are ALWAYS busier over Christmas, with people who are bitterly depressed or suicidal because of it. As I also point out, I know divorce lawyers do much of their trade after it. One of my best friends in the ward is now divorced, and his separation started in the early New Year. Go figure...

So, no, it's not "fear mongering", it's simple statistics. Because Christ is left out of Christmas, it is not a source of joy to many people.

I used to enjoy it as a child, but after my parents passed, it is of no joy to me whatsoever. I used to go to a retreat centre for several years to get away from it for the sake of my own mental health.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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I also want to point out that I have never gotten into debt from buying Christmas presents. I couldn't possibly care less what the "Joneses" are doing or buying or decorating with (light wars, for example). People who have been sucked into that have been sucked into such a nightmare, it would be better for them if Christmas suddenly disappeared.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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Niemand wrote: December 17th, 2021, 3:49 am I used to enjoy it as a child, but after my parents passed, it is of no joy to me whatsoever. I used to go to a retreat centre for several years to get away from it for the sake of my own mental health.
That's rough! 💖 🤗

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cab
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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I really liked the Chosen Christmas special.

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cab
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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Also, I’ve made up my own symbolism for Christmas and how it relates to the everlasting covenant Jesus invites us to be a part of.

Think of gathering with your loved ones in the bonds of charity and acting as ministering angels to one another by sharing and receiving spiritual gifts under the shadow of the ‘tree of life’ which is God’s greatest gift of love manifested to us as Jesus Christ our Savior, which is adorned more beautifully than any tree and whose fruit is far more delicious than any fruit.

Something to think about and ponder on perhaps.

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ajax
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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SPIRIT
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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I can see and understand both sides of it.

This Christmas
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=64124&p=1210794#p1210794

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ajax
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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Niemand wrote: December 16th, 2021, 9:45 am
Thinker wrote: December 16th, 2021, 8:35 am I know, you could probably burst my bubble by explaining other possible historical evil meanings of those symbols… but why? Would it help?
Yes, as someone said, Jesus is the reason for the season. We should get back to Christ.

People make themselves bitterly unhappy over Christmas. A pal who's a retired lawyer says his firm specially opened up every Boxing Day for divorce proceedings. I have a different problem, my family is all either dead or living far away from here. I feel like I'm imposing on anyone I visit. So I keep it as simple as possible. But many people get very depressed because of the constant hammering of Christmas everywhere.

My neighbours go in for the lights. Same problem. Turns into a competition and probably an expensive one. The simpler ones actually look more tasteful to my eye. But again, in the fancier ones Jesus isn't there, it's all snowmen and various other non-Christian kitsch. The star and the foliage are there, but no one round here makes those associations you just mentioned.

That isn't right. The gift giving has become a competition in which people buy what they cannot afford. They get stressed producing fancy meals and all the rest.

Santa is very much a usurper, gate crasher, imposter, whatever you want to call him. I think he represents what has gone wrong with it. The displacement of Jesus, and so on. He is no longer St. Nicholas at this point.
Again, you make good points about the tendency to miss the mark with Christmas.
Still, if you REALLY want to get to the truth, then study the origins of Christianity - and how the nature of Christ was voted on, sometimes harassing or killing dissenters. Dogma - corrupt tradition - like shifting blame and apathetically waiting to be physically saved - is very much a "usurper, gate crasher, imposter." The ultimate anti-Christ.

It's understandable to feel lonely - even more when you expect to be around loved ones, as you see others doing. THAT's what sucks. But I don't think it's reason to tell the whole world to not get together and celebrate Christmas. How about finding others who are even more lonely than you - those who don't even have online family like you have with us. Some individuals out there could really use what love you feel inspired to give them.

I imagine if I were in your shoes. It could be tough, but I know that a lot is how I look at and interpret it. Personally, I struggle with releasing unrealistic expectations that life should be fair, or that I should be loved more than I am. God loves me unconditionally - unlike even the best human beings who cannot help but fail because everyone's imperfect. Through all kinds of emotional, social and spiritual weather, I keep coming back to the firm foundation in trusting in God. Sometimes I have feared rejection, or as you did, feared imposing on others - but when I have felt the love, guidance and reassurance of God - then I don't let such fears stop me from loving or being loved. But I know it's easier said than done. Faith - isn't always easy. The other day, I thought of spiritual armor in this context - to not let my fear of others' rejections etc., affect me - but it's like a daily thing - like getting dressed - putting on emotional/spiritual armor (meditation, praying/listening, active faith).

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Niemand
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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Thinker wrote: December 19th, 2021, 5:15 pm
Niemand wrote: December 16th, 2021, 9:45 am
Thinker wrote: December 16th, 2021, 8:35 am I know, you could probably burst my bubble by explaining other possible historical evil meanings of those symbols… but why? Would it help?
Yes, as someone said, Jesus is the reason for the season. We should get back to Christ.

People make themselves bitterly unhappy over Christmas. A pal who's a retired lawyer says his firm specially opened up every Boxing Day for divorce proceedings. I have a different problem, my family is all either dead or living far away from here. I feel like I'm imposing on anyone I visit. So I keep it as simple as possible. But many people get very depressed because of the constant hammering of Christmas everywhere.

My neighbours go in for the lights. Same problem. Turns into a competition and probably an expensive one. The simpler ones actually look more tasteful to my eye. But again, in the fancier ones Jesus isn't there, it's all snowmen and various other non-Christian kitsch. The star and the foliage are there, but no one round here makes those associations you just mentioned.

That isn't right. The gift giving has become a competition in which people buy what they cannot afford. They get stressed producing fancy meals and all the rest.

Santa is very much a usurper, gate crasher, imposter, whatever you want to call him. I think he represents what has gone wrong with it. The displacement of Jesus, and so on. He is no longer St. Nicholas at this point.
Again, you make good points about the tendency to miss the mark with Christmas.
Still, if you REALLY want to get to the truth, then study the origins of Christianity - and how the nature of Christ was voted on, sometimes harassing or killing dissenters. Dogma - corrupt tradition - like shifting blame and apathetically waiting to be physically saved - is very much a "usurper, gate crasher, imposter." The ultimate anti-Christ.

It's understandable to feel lonely - even more when you expect to be around loved ones, as you see others doing. THAT's what sucks. But I don't think it's reason to tell the whole world to not get together and celebrate Christmas. How about finding others who are even more lonely than you - those who don't even have online family like you have with us. Some individuals out there could really use what love you feel inspired to give them.

I imagine if I were in your shoes. It could be tough, but I know that a lot is how I look at and interpret it. Personally, I struggle with releasing unrealistic expectations that life should be fair, or that I should be loved more than I am. God loves me unconditionally - unlike even the best human beings who cannot help but fail because everyone's imperfect. Through all kinds of emotional, social and spiritual weather, I keep coming back to the firm foundation in trusting in God. Sometimes I have feared rejection, or as you did, feared imposing on others - but when I have felt the love, guidance and reassurance of God - then I don't let such fears stop me from loving or being loved. But I know it's easier said than done. Faith - isn't always easy. The other day, I thought of spiritual armor in this context - to not let my fear of others' rejections etc., affect me - but it's like a daily thing - like getting dressed - putting on emotional/spiritual armor (meditation, praying/listening, active faith).
I'm not against Christmas completely, I just think it can be refocussed. Robin Hood lives in a place where Christmas is highly secularised but is in your face all the time. A lot of that manifestation is unfortunately ugly. I would try and ignore it, but it's hard to avoid, so one has to think of other ways to deal with it. I've been to retreat centres, overseas once or twice and worked Christmas jobs to get around it.

I used to prefer it when I lived out in the country. Here it's all around you. I go past houses with lots of lights on them - some tasteful, some not so tasteful. I would probably love them as a child, now I just wander past them. The only thing I can say about this situation is it makes it less intense (although there is a feeling of "not again" for many people, panic about boosters, variants, lockdowns and all the rest.)

I do get together with others and have an alternative Christmas sometimes. One year we went to our local Chinese place, and it was probably one of the best Christmas meals I've had. No excess, a wide variety of courses etc, and only eating what I wanted to eat.

On one level, Christmas is a beautiful if melancholy story about a family with nothing who are blessed with a child who will save mankind... but it's overlaid with other details, and sidelined.

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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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Niemand wrote: December 19th, 2021, 5:58 pmI'm not against Christmas completely, I just think it can be refocussed. Robin Hood lives in a place where Christmas is highly secularised but is in your face all the time. A lot of that manifestation is unfortunately ugly. I would try and ignore it, but it's hard to avoid, so one has to think of other ways to deal with it. I've been to retreat centres, overseas once or twice and worked Christmas jobs to get around it.

I used to prefer it when I lived out in the country. Here it's all around you. I go past houses with lots of lights on them - some tasteful, some not so tasteful. I would probably love them as a child, now I just wander past them. The only thing I can say about this situation is it makes it less intense (although there is a feeling of "not again" for many people, panic about boosters, variants, lockdowns and all the rest.)

I do get together with others and have an alternative Christmas sometimes. One year we went to our local Chinese place, and it was probably one of the best Christmas meals I've had. No excess, a wide variety of courses etc, and only eating what I wanted to eat.

On one level, Christmas is a beautiful if melancholy story about a family with nothing who are blessed with a child who will save mankind... but it's overlaid with other details, and sidelined.
I think I can see where you’re coming from & you & RH make valid points. Still, there is such a thing as “functional illusions” - but the functionality varies with each person.

Image

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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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Small Christmas tree with only nativities, pictures of Christ and Temples. It was painful, but I have ditched most of my Santas over the years. One year I just decorated the tree with cards from Family Search with our ancestors' names.

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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

Post by Rubicon »

This is an interesting phenomenon. While holidays have "ursprunglich" pagan origins, they don't have those meanings to people today. I don't personally think that partaking in our larger cultural heritage (British-German for Christmas, largely) denotes participating in pagan worship, but obviously others do. Taken to the logical conclusion, it becomes the Jehovah's Witnesses belief (Bible doesn't mention birthdays, Christmas, Halloween, Thanksgiving, etc., so don't celebrate them. But weddings? Jesus turned water into wine at the wedding in Cana. Let the wedding partying begin!").

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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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Rubicon wrote: November 25th, 2022, 8:47 am This is an interesting phenomenon. While holidays have "ursprunglich" pagan origins, they don't have those meanings to people today. I don't personally think that partaking in our larger cultural heritage (British-German for Christmas, largely) denotes participating in pagan worship, but obviously others do. Taken to the logical conclusion, it becomes the Jehovah's Witnesses belief (Bible doesn't mention birthdays, Christmas, Halloween, Thanksgiving, etc., so don't celebrate them. But weddings? Jesus turned water into wine at the wedding in Cana. Let the wedding partying begin!").
Yes, which brought to mind, as I have family who are JW, who believe weddings/anniversaries are very important and always paid recognition to. I tend to agree with them.

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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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Robin Hood wrote: December 15th, 2021, 5:12 am Are there others on the forum who don't observe Christmas, or am I the only one?

We quit the whole thing 3 years ago and have never regretted it. No Nimrod tree, no lights or decorations of any kind, no cards, no presents, no carol services, no FP Christmas devotional.... nothing.
It's great.

All we do is have a meal with the family, which is something we do regularly anyway.

I would be interested to hear from others who feel the same way.
We have given our Christmas decorations away to one of our adult children. We are celebrating Hanukkah this year. We will see how it goes.

Jeremiah 10:3-4
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

JandD6572
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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I never seem to get enough of a lot of you people who will all but bow and worship a so-called prophet, yet, your so-called one and only true church which celebrates Christmas is such a bad pagan thing. bad people, bad, for even considering celebrating the birth of Christ.

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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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JandD6572 wrote: November 26th, 2022, 9:15 am I never seem to get enough of a lot of you people who will all but bow and worship a so-called prophet, yet, your so-called one and only true church which celebrates Christmas is such a bad pagan thing. bad people, bad, for even considering celebrating the birth of Christ.
It’s deeper than that.
Few (if any) here with issues about Christmas traditions, worship lds corporation CEO/presidents.

It really depends on what inspires you to do good - you know, the fruits. For some, Christmas decor etc is depressing, for others - inspiring. This touches on an often overlooked fact - there’s unavoidable subjectivity that we’d be wise to channel well… we all have faith but some is misdirected.

Do you really think Christ is the type to tell a parable of his birth just so everyone would celebrate his birthday?
  • “All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; & without a parable spake he not unto them.” –Matt 13:34

    "I did liken all scriptures unto us, that it might be for our profit and learning.” -1Nephi 19:23
What else are spiritual teachings for?


Personally & currently, I find Christmas symbols inspiring & uplifting - as I shared earlier on this thread.

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TheChristian
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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Christian liberty.....Apostle Paul

Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on his opinions.
Who are we to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

One person regards a certain day above the others,
while someone else considers every day alike.
Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
He who observes a special day does so to the Lord;
he who eats does so to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God;
and he who abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.

mtmom
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

Post by mtmom »

JandD6572 wrote: November 26th, 2022, 9:15 am I never seem to get enough of a lot of you people who will all but bow and worship a so-called prophet, yet, your so-called one and only true church which celebrates Christmas is such a bad pagan thing. bad people, bad, for even considering celebrating the birth of Christ.
The Amish do a very scaled-down version of Christmas. They usually have small gifts for the children, a nice family dinner, but no tree or decorations.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Non-observance of Christmas

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mtmom wrote: November 26th, 2022, 8:09 am
Robin Hood wrote: December 15th, 2021, 5:12 am Are there others on the forum who don't observe Christmas, or am I the only one?

We quit the whole thing 3 years ago and have never regretted it. No Nimrod tree, no lights or decorations of any kind, no cards, no presents, no carol services, no FP Christmas devotional.... nothing.
It's great.

All we do is have a meal with the family, which is something we do regularly anyway.

I would be interested to hear from others who feel the same way.
We have given our Christmas decorations away to one of our adult children. We are celebrating Hanukkah this year. We will see how it goes.

Jeremiah 10:3-4
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
Let us know how it goes.

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