A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

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tmac
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Re: Railroad On LDSFF

Post by tmac »

BeNotDeceived wrote: November 24th, 2022, 8:27 am
tmac wrote: November 24th, 2022, 8:23 am
BeNotDeceived wrote: November 24th, 2022, 8:13 am Much ado about nothing.
Definitely agree that it is Much Ado. My question is Exactly What is the “Nothing” You’re Referring to?
The something is something, but the church is nothing since Brigham and company &#%!@? it.
Fair enough.

In other words, to be expected, right?

Once the Church went completely off the rails with God (I don’t pretend to know exactly when that happened; all I know is where it is today), then almost any Worldly thing is possible.

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Re: Railroad On LDSFF

Post by BeNotDeceived »

tmac wrote: November 24th, 2022, 8:33 am
BeNotDeceived wrote: November 24th, 2022, 8:27 am
tmac wrote: November 24th, 2022, 8:23 am
BeNotDeceived wrote: November 24th, 2022, 8:13 am Much ado about nothing.
Definitely agree that it is Much Ado. My question is Exactly What is the “Nothing” You’re Referring to?
The something is something, but the church is nothing since Brigham and company &#%!@? it.
Fair enough.

In other words, to be expected, right?

Once the Church went completely off the rails with God (I don’t pretend to know exactly when that happened; all I know is where it is today), then almost any Worldly thing is possible.
The show goes on as shadow of its former self.

The solution is in sight, but few see it.

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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by endlessismyname »

FrankOne wrote: November 23rd, 2022, 6:48 pm yes. this is the thread that i remembered.

He spoke at length about how Nelson and Oaks were installed by Hinckley.
Supposedly he heard an incoherent Kimball which supposedly was lucid for a moment, in the middle of the night, appoint Nelson and Oaks.

then after a few casual , non-informative comments, he posts this: page 21.
=======================================

"The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

He said unto them, An enemy hath done this."

===========================

then on the same page: another one of his comments:

Two large armies confront each other.

They take positions 3 quarters of the way up opposing hillsides. A valley lays between them.

Night falls.

A certain group of men being aware of subtle craft cross the valley through tall grass.

They enter their enemies camp. Fires are lit and the troops are conversing before sleep. The certain group of men mix in among them.

When morning comes they fight alongside their enemies. Against their own brethren. They know the battle will be quick. Their brethren draw short contact and retreat.

The subtle crew rejoices with their enemies and celebrates the rousting of their brethre
n
==============================

it's obvious to me that he is referring to a corrupt Hinckley which installed the two without any authorization from Kimball. He implies that Hinckley isn't alone in this deception.

I hope I'm not overstepping in this thread, but I"ve been skimming it and remembered that the above is what caught my attention before.
You're not overstepping. It's a public board, and a public thread.

This is THE key moment in the thread, and hopefully I'll eventually get around to examining it more closely.

Good eye... stay curious!

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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by endlessismyname »

tmac wrote: November 23rd, 2022, 6:08 pm After a brief dust-up at the beginning, I've always been fascinated with AGF's information and genuinely wanted to hear the rest of the Working on the Railroad story. I agree, it had a lot of potential, but unfortunately withered on the vine. Having spent some time and effort on those particular tracks, and having now become personally acquainted with Hyloglyph, I'll be interested to see what you come up with.
Hey tmac!

Good to see you here on the thread.

Do me a favor, will you, and tell hyloglyph to let AGF know that a researcher came along who thinks he understands what he was trying to accomplish and is willing to dig into the information he dropped on the board.

Maybe it will make him feel better about the whole experience.

And please, by all means, feel free to chip in. There's a TON of research to do - certainly more than I can handle on my own.

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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by endlessismyname »

Okay, while I'm waiting to see if FoxMammaWisdom is wiling to evaluate AGF's avatar photo using her skill set, I'm moving on to just trying to firm up what I'll call "the AGF credibility question" in my own mind.

Let me give you an example of why I personally feel like AGF IS credible, and it's worthwhile to spend time, energy, and effort (our most valuable resources) on digging in to that insane Railroad thread.

-------------

From a 40,000 foot view, AGF and what I'll refer to as his "allies" narrative (and I use the word narrative on purpose) is pretty simple, and has a few major themes:

Union Pacific Railroad appears to be where the church hopped in bed with Babylon - after supposedly leaving the country to flee from Babylon and become an independent people.
Eventually this unholy union led to the infiltration of the church organization at the highest levels
Because of that infiltration, much injustice has taken place, and we are in a pickle at the moment

In my opinion, AGF is just using Union Pacific as what I'd call an "entry point". It's not what needs the most attention, but it's a good place to start a story, and it helps establish credibility because it's not a well known part of Mormon history amongst the lay members. From a storytelling perspective it makes you what we call "a first among equals".

So let's just look at one specific thing about AGF's story:

I'm fairly well versed in Mormon history, and didn't know anything about the church's long term involvement in Union Pacific.

In my opinion, the most important thing AGF said in the entire thread was this:

"So there is much value in digging up old things. When I was working on the Railroad and found out that President Oaks was involved with it I started to research things about the Railroad at the time and visited libraries and accessed some internal records and talked to some of the old timers at Union Pacific. I was astonished at what I found and most all of it was publicly available it was just never spoken of much."

In my opinion, AGF's entire purpose of being here was to try to stoke people into being curious enough to GO AND DO THE SAME RESEARCH HE'S REFERENCING HERE.

Of course, pretty much everybody just wanted him to tell them what he had learned.

Itching ears, dopamine addiction, and all. It's a strange time we live in.

But AGF seems to understand that eternal principle we all heard growing up: give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and also teach him how to teach others how to fish, and he'll save the world.

Or something like that.

When AGF starts his story he drops several interesting nuggets about things I didn't know: Oaks and his involvement with UP, George Bush's involvement with UP, and Brigham Young's involvement with UP.

So he seems to want us to see that the UP is important to both the church and our government leaders. Great, got it, AGF. Is it true?

Well, verifying the George Bush story is easy:

https://www.up.com/heritage/fleet/comme ... /index.htm

And verifying that Oaks was on the board of directors is just as easy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallin_H._Oaks

And what about the claim that Brigham is the one who initiated this whole thing:

Well, let's go a bit deeper than just a simple Google search (although that's how I found this source). Take a look at this:

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/vie ... ontext=etd

It's an old masters thesis on Union Pacific and Brigham Young, for those too lazy to click on it.

And right there, at the beginning of Chapter 3, we read this:

"Brigham Young's association with the Union Pacific began shortly after the company was organized. At the time of organization the road began selling stock to finance construction. Young became one of the initial subscribers purchasing five shares valued at $1,000 each. Several years later in 1865 he was appointed to the board of directors."

That's three hits for AGF. And, I mean, it seems interesting to me. Because, seriously, if you were the prophet, or president, or whatever you want to call it of a religion - why would you be spending your time on railroads. Doesn't fit very well in the logic bucket. To me, at least.

Three things I didn't know, that he told me. Not hidden things, per se... but hidden from me, until he came along.

So... I'm listening, old man. Tell me more.

And he did.

And I think we should take a look at it. Remember, "there is much value in digging up old things".

Anyone else ever want to be a digital archaeologist when they were a kid?

Me either.

Doesn't pay well.

But sometimes engaging in labors of love pay the highest dividends, if you know what I mean.

Happy Thanksgiving, all!

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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by endlessismyname »

Oh, I just can't help myself.

These are the kind of gems that make research so much fun.

So let's just assume, for a moment, that AGF's crazy story is true. Brigham plotted or sold out, the church got infiltrated, culminating in RMN and Oaks being called as apostles, etc, etc.

Here's another quote from Chapter 3 of the masters thesis I linked to. This is a historical fact:

"Young reported to the Deseret News on June 9, 1868, regarding the official commencement of the work in Echo Canyon. The affair began when Samuel Reed, now superintendent of construction, turned the first official shovel of dirt at Devil's Gate".

Devil's Gate, indeed.

Consequences echoing throughout eternity, perhaps.

Who said reality isn't poetic?

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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by endlessismyname »

"president young, not desiring the work on the road to stop or the economic situation to worsen began to use his personal funds or those of the mormon church if indeed the two were separable"

So here we have a prophet, or president, or whatever engaging in what appears to be fraud, or if we're being charitable we could say, "President Young was using his position of authority in the church to his personal advantage, outside of revealed standards, and with no apparent concern regarding the Lord's will".

Okay, maybe that's not all that charitable. I tried.

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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by endlessismyname »

"since reed had offered no satisfaction young then turned to vice president thomas durant"

We know that the relationship between the government and the church was... umm, strained... at the end of Joseph's life.

And yet here we have Brigham reaching out directly to the Vice President of the United States.

A data point worth filing away, I'd say.
Last edited by endlessismyname on November 24th, 2022, 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by logonbump »

How I resurrected the railroad thread: (viewtopic.php?p=1323564#p1323564)
A so-called troll had made a post about corruption in her family and in her hometown and the fight she engaged in to keep her kids out of a cult. Then she got booted from the forum by admins. This post has been removed. Another reader remembered she was trolling on this old post about the railroad and was "harassing" the OP and otherwise making a stink.
After reading the first nine pages in fascination, AGF made subtle mention of Yale and U of U and I linked to that.
Fascinating as it was, stories and all, with huge implications, I thought Connie/HisWrathSoon's story had more relevance as it pertains to CPS fraud, kidnapping, land fraud, a "bad dad sex cult" and the local crime family her brothers were part of, as well as other widespread corruption among church members and leaders.
Unfortunately, that forum member was not permitted to tell her story; much as we seem to like crime stories that are old and charming and seemingly unlikely, we recoil at schizophrenic horror stories that ARE likely and relayed by unfortunate homeless people on the run from the same criminals.
Here she is some time back on Reddit, desperate for help, reaching out in the same way, only to be booted by admins:
Image
Link to named brother conviction on public record:
https://www.homefacts.com/offender-deta ... lding.html

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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by endlessismyname »

"young reminded them that according to his calculations the company owed him a sum amounting to three quarters of a million dollars which he badly needed"

People do strange things when money is "badly needed"

You can, after all, buy anything in this world with money.

"Even churches?" I hear you asking.

Well, yes, even churches... if we look at it from a strictly logical perspective.
Last edited by endlessismyname on November 24th, 2022, 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by endlessismyname »

logonbump wrote: November 24th, 2022, 11:31 am How I resurrected the railroad thread: (viewtopic.php?p=1323564#p1323564)
A so-called troll had made a post about corruption in her family and in her hometown and the fight she engaged in to keep her kids out of a cult. Then she got booted from the forum by admins. This post has been removed. Another reader remembered she was trolling on this old post about the railroad and was "harassing" the OP and otherwise making a stink.
After reading the first nine pages in fascination, AGF made subtle mention of Yale and U of U and I linked to that.
Fascinating as it was, stories and all, with huge implications, I thought Connie/HisWrathSoon's story had more relevance as it pertains to CPS fraud, kidnapping, land fraud, a "bad dad sex cult" and the local crime family her brothers were part of, as well as other widespread corruption among church members and leaders.
Unfortunately, that forum member was not permitted to tell her story; much as we seem to like crime stories that are old and charming and seemingly unlikely, we recoil at schizophrenic horror stories that ARE likely and relayed by unfortunate homeless people on the run from the same criminals.
Here she is some time back on Reddit, desperate for help, reaching out in the same way, only to be booted by admins:
Image
Link to named brother conviction on public record:
https://www.homefacts.com/offender-deta ... lding.html
You do indeed deserve credit for resurrecting the thread, at least as far as I'm concerned. It was your post on the RMN thread that got my attention.

Connie is here on the forum, under a different name, at least as of a couple days ago.

I don't know how to help Connie... and indeed, my last communication with her led me to believe she isn't looking for help.

I also don't know if there's a connection between AGF's story, and Connie's. I suppose in time we may find out.

That reminds me, though, one thing I found interesting about the whole AGF/Railroad saga was this:

The thread was called something like "Working on the Railroad" - which refers to the church's past

A Global Faith's username refers to what many of us see as the church's intent regarding its future

I think I've heard it said that in order to understand where you are, you need to understand where you've been, and where you're going.

Or something like that.

What do y'all think? Any "there" there, or am I connecting dots that only exist in my head?

EDIT: I'm deeply concerned about Connie. If there's anything I can do to be of assistance, please do let me know.

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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by endlessismyname »

Our story continues...

John Sharp, who you'll remember gets introduced into the Railroad thread by Connecting the Dots, turns out to be a major player in the story. Here's a quote from the masters thesis .pdf. It's from a letter John Sharp wrote to Albert Carrington:

"after so long a time permit me to tell you that I am still alive

the UPRR is finished but I have been so very busy
since I commenced it until now that I have not had time to
drop you a line

although I have been very busy in doing the work
the worst part of it is to be done yet that is getting our pay

president young has sent me to boston to effect a settlement of
his claims with the UPRR company

I have had an interview with the vice president and some of the board of directors and
can assure you they had no flattering news for me so far as
money is concerned in the settlement

but they offered us railroad iron enough to lay our utah central branch to salt lake city

------

this is what I will refer to as "intelligence rich information"

We're all bombarded all day every day by information. Much of it is intelligence-poor. You can think of it in the same way you do food: Some food is nutrient rich, and leads to health, and other food is nutrient poor, and leads to death. 100% analogous to information, for those with eyes to see it.

What intelligence can we glean from this letter, written AT THE TIME OF THE EVENTS, by A MAJOR PLAYER IN THE EVENTS?

Brigham, not being able to collect his money, sent Sharp on a "mission" - which makes me wonder, how many people could Sharp have converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ during a different kind of mission if he wasn't tied up in this railroad business?

Sharp opens his letter with "I'm still alive". I don't know what to make of that. Without knowing Sharp's writing style or character, it's difficult to interpret. Still, kind of an odd way to open a letter, even if it has been awhile since you've written one... unless you had told the person you were writing, "if you haven't heard from me in x number of months, send help". I don't know, I have a wild imagination. I blame it on my mother.

Previously we established that Young had access to some of the highest people in our government. In this quote we get confirmation of that. It turns out that not just Young, but Sharp had a direct line to the VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

For people who claimed to hate the government, and be trying to escape the government, they sure spent a lot of time IN BED WITH THE GOVERNMENT.

Sorry for yelling. I've heard some people around here are hard of hearing.

EDIT: One other thing we can see. Young, and his family, seem to have caught the railroad bug, because we see that they become willing to accept railroad supplies in exchange for payment in order to complete a DIFFERENT set of lines. This is AFTER the contract with UP is fulfilled. I haven't mentioned it yet, but you can easily confirm that one of Young's sons spent the rest of his life in the railroad business after the UP contract was engaged in... so, in many ways, Young used the church and it's funds to set up a FAMILY BUSINESS. Is the FAMILY still in the BUSINESS?
Last edited by endlessismyname on November 24th, 2022, 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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tmac
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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by tmac »

From my perspective, it was always clear that there was plenty of there, there in the Railroad thread. But you're right, I wanted AGF to do the work and provide the information, even if it meant spoon-feeding in his own unique and oftentimes annoying, ebb-and-flow-approach.

As BND has asserted, however, it may be much ado about nothing -- just another worldly organization going the way of the world, and playing its worldly game -- for quite a while now. But when that interesting/important decision was made in 1984, it does seem to have put the dominoes in place, and the Church on the trajectory to get where it is today and clearly appears to be headed.

To me, it seems that the prescient inspiration to appoint RMN and DHO as apostles must come from one of two very contrasting sources. Either way, it seems that decision was clearly inspired and/or directed by PTB who knew more than normal mere mortals.

So, that raises lots of additional questions, that actually seem to track much of Fred's hard-hitting assertions.

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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by endlessismyname »

tmac wrote: November 24th, 2022, 12:03 pm From my perspective, it was always clear that there was plenty of there, there in the Railroad thread. But you're right, I wanted AGF to do the work and provide the information, even if it meant spoon-feeding in his own unique and oftentimes annoying, ebb-and-flow-approach.

As BND has asserted, however, it may be much ado about nothing -- just another worldly organization going the way of the world, and playing its worldly game -- for quite a while now. But when that interesting/important decision was made in 1984, it does seem to have put the dominoes in place, and the Church on the trajectory to get where it is today and clearly appears to be headed.

To me, it seems that the prescient inspiration to appoint RMN and DHO as apostles must come from one of two very contrasting sources. Either way, it seems that decision was clearly inspired and/or directed by PTB who knew more than normal mere mortals.

So, that raises lots of additional questions, that actually seem to track much of Fred's hard-hitting assertions.
I apologize, since I'm still very new to the conversation, I don't understand part of your post. But I am VERY interested in understanding better. If and when time allows would you expound on these statements you made?

"To me, it seems that the prescient inspiration to appoint RMN and DHO as apostles must come from one of two very contrasting sources. Either way, it seems that decision was clearly inspired and/or directed by PTB who knew more than normal mere mortals."

and

that raises lots of additional questions, that actually seem to track much of Fred's hard-hitting assertions.

Fred and I are not on the best of terms. I feel for the man, but find his style of communication challenging. Therefore I don't know what any of his claims are. I'm wise enough to realize that sometimes the grumpiest of us are simply grumpy because we know things others don't, and nobody will listen, [Insert Obrien's favorite curse word here]! So if there are things he's saying that are important, I'm very willing to listen.

EDIT: creator, that little code snippet that changed my cursing to what is found in the thread is genius. Pure genius!

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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by endlessismyname »

pp 47-48 of the document introduce some important evidence.

It's too long to copy and paste, since there seems to be some issue with text recognition that makes the pasted text weird, and I'm not willing to edit it.

The gist of it is, Sharp reports back to Brigham that things aren't going well. Young decides to start negotiating.

I'll stop here, and throw in something I've learned:

Negotiating is an important skill, but highly overrated.

The Lord doesn't seem all that interested in negotiating with me (as our friend Serragon so eloquently posted out on another recent thread). He seems to have some rules he expects me to follow, and rewards me if I follow them, and corrects me if I don't. I mean, I've tried negotiating with the Lord A LOT, but he's batting 100% on resisting my attempts.

The adversary, on the other hand, seems intent on dragging me into negotiation after negotiation. And no matter how hard I try, or how good I get at negotiating, I never seem to come out on the right end of the deal when I negotiate with the devil. Kind of exhausting, really.

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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by endlessismyname »

The author of the paper seems to think Brigham wasn't all that great at negotiating. Speaking of Brigham's proposal, he states it:


"would have been financially ruinous and in violation of his earlier objectivesto avoid coppromising promising compromising cop his claims".

Like I said, people do weird things when money is badly needed.

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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by endlessismyname »

(the representative for UP) "reported that they were ready to submit the decision to a final vote provided the terms thereof were agreeable to brigham young's attorney"

"the proposal as outlined by mccomb provided that the union pacific wouldpay $100,000 on the additional claims - scarcely one fourth of the original sum asked"

"this offer did not in any way relate to reed final estimate which the company had always acknowledged

in view of their (meaning the church members) high expectations after meeting with the trustees sharp and his associates were understandably upset

How upset?

By his own admission, Joseph A. Young was "in a state of rage"... people do strange things when they allow that kind of spirit to take possession of them.

So UP decides to play hard ball.

The church representatives are upset. To which I respond, "Who could possibly have seen this coming"?

You get the idea.

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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by endlessismyname »

Just a data point:

by the end of february 1869 young had received approximately $1,3500,00 in cash or some type of exchange as well as equipment amounting to $230,000.

No word on how much of it Brigham shared with Sharp.

Or whether he paid his tithing on it.

But I don't think that was part of the temple recommend questions back then, so it's moot.

EDIT: I want to be clear that I'm not ASSERTING that Brigham was getting all the money, I'm PROVING it:

"to this point all monies paid by the railroad were received by young who in turn dispersed it to his subcontractors. Once the settlement was completed young personally
received the entire amount"

It does appear the UP trustees may have cut a deal with Sharp and Young's son, because they suddenly become a part of the settlement. Not enough evidence to make any claims about the nature of why that happened, as of yet.

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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by endlessismyname »

The concluding paragraph of Chapter 3 is good:

I'm not going to edit it... you can go see the original for yourself. Blasted technology...

"probably the single most significant factor to consider was the nature
of the settlement at this time the union pacific was under a great
deal of public criticism for the manner in which the construction was
carried out and the means by which it was funded while young was on
many occasions out of patience with the company over the money owed him
he had not engaged in wholesale condemnation of the road but maintained
the channels of communication with the assistance of bishop john sharp
dealing personally with the union pacific trustees they had concluded
a settlement of youngs contract and part of his additional claims on
terms acceptable to both parties above all the company officials were
favorably disposed towards sharp personally and he had established a
congenial relationship with them which was to prove of future value"

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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by tmac »

So, one might say “negotiating is a great worldly, temporal skill.”

In the spiritual and eternal realm it may not be as important. But there are folks, from Job to Abram, to the Brother of Jared, who seem to have engaged (or at least attempted to) in some degree of negotiation with the Lord.
Last edited by tmac on November 24th, 2022, 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by BeNotDeceived »

tmac wrote: November 24th, 2022, 12:39 pm So, one might say “negotiating is a great worldly, temporal skill.”

In the spiritual and eternal realm it may not be as important. But there are folks, from Job to Abram, to the Brother of Jared, who seem to have engaged (or at least attempted) in some degree of negotiation with the Lord.
Something akin to inviting a Spirit to answer with an earthquake at a specific magnitude.

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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by tmac »

Expounding on my previous post, was it the god of this world, or the God of this Universe, who wanted the Church to chart a worldly course, and have RMN and DHO help shepherd it along that course, and ultimately bring the Church to a full state of worldliness? Forty years ago, who was the master behind that plan? That really seems to be the question.
Last edited by tmac on November 24th, 2022, 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by FrankOne »

tmac wrote: November 24th, 2022, 12:53 pm Expounding on my previous post, was it the God of this World, or the God of this Universe, who wanted the Church to chart a worldly course, and have RMN and DHO help shepherd it along that course, and ultimately bring the Church to a full state of worldliness? Forty years ago, who was the master behind that plan? That really seems to be the question.
That is my perspective as well.

The worldly course was necessary just as was the crucifixion of Christ. The 'bad' things happen as they need to in order to prepare the way for what is fresh and new. The church today is merely a very mechanical vehicle. It's a hollow shell, but the members that are close to Christ are the life within it. The high leadership are automatons , mesmerized with the physical world of nothingness.

The 'master plan' is a curious subject. Was there a master plan or was it just a few men working in concert for more personal power? I tend to think it was indeed, a master plan to subvert the course of the church toward a Luciferian theology. It wouldn't surprise me at all if most of the 15 are full blown Luciferians. Not Satanists, that is a different subject.

Masons really do consider Lucifer as a bringer of light but they despise Satan. The two are completely different in nature. Not to derail the subject, but it is my perspective that if Lucifer were to stand in front of the world today, he would be recognized by most as God . . Lucifer does want to bring all souls back to God, but his plan involves eliminating free will. He will represent all that is good and right and the masses will celebrate. I think we'll see that day come in our lives. The great deception.

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tmac
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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by tmac »

The God and Master of this Universe knows everything that will happen, including the worldliness of the Church, but He does not force His will. The god of this world likewise probably knows most of what will happen, but has no qualm about using force and deception to attempt to accomplish his will.

I think that the main reason he is willing to do literally anything to accomplish his objectives is because his highest priority objective is to receive the glory. He has an insatiable desire to be worshipped as god.

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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

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endlessismyname wrote: November 24th, 2022, 12:17 pm pp 47-48 of the document introduce some important evidence.

It's too long to copy and paste, since there seems to be some issue with text recognition that makes the pasted text weird, and I'm not willing to edit it.

The gist of it is, Sharp reports back to Brigham that things aren't going well. Young decides to start negotiating.

I'll stop here, and throw in something I've learned:

Negotiating is an important skill, but highly overrated.

The Lord doesn't seem all that interested in negotiating with me (as our friend Serragon so eloquently posted out on another recent thread). He seems to have some rules he expects me to follow, and rewards me if I follow them, and corrects me if I don't. I mean, I've tried negotiating with the Lord A LOT, but he's batting 100% on resisting my attempts.

The adversary, on the other hand, seems intent on dragging me into negotiation after negotiation. And no matter how hard I try, or how good I get at negotiating, I never seem to come out on the right end of the deal when I negotiate with the devil. Kind of exhausting, really.
That's because people who insist on negotiating instead of settling their debts.

Are betting they are going to get more out of it than you.

In fact.

By getting you to agree to negotiate.

They are already winning by increasing your costs.

Because time is money.

Thus they are decreasing the ultimate value of what you receive.

God on the other hand wants you to gain maximum value.

Thus.

No negotiation.

My opinion anyway.

Sir H

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