The Tolerant and Inclusive Church

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Allison
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Re: The Tolerant and Inclusive Church

Post by Allison »

Letfreedumbring wrote: November 22nd, 2022, 2:31 am
Serragon wrote: November 18th, 2022, 1:25 pm
EmmaLee brought up in another post the comparison of Obama to Nelson, and I think it very astute. Obama intentionally presented himself as a blank slate that his supporters could paint with their own desires. Obama fundamentally changed what it meant to be American for those who followed him, and the fruit of that is division and contention for most of us, but power for him and his friends. People still love Obama even though he instigated a fundamental shift in thinking for the democrats and the executive branch from representing and serving the people to ruling over them like a Chicago gang family. I think Nelson's pattern is similar. He wants a different church, and wants us to think about things differently and is doing what he can to make sure that happens.
This is very astute. Nelson has actually fractured the church much the same.

He has divided member against member with the unequal balance of power to favor one side over the other. Obama did this numerous times instigating while appearing removed but congratulating the victors (gay marriage, illegal immigration, victim identity formation, etc)

For Nelson this was with masks and mass vaccination. Allowing one side to claim the supposed moral high ground and punishing the other but this was different -- this was supposed to be a community of saints. Seriously, wearing a mask is Christ like?

RMN would also secretly jeer the other side by making it appear as if the older generation who were taught to believe certain things by the church were racist. This seems to be his focus making members of the church look like absolute fools while making himself out to be a savior of sorts. By their fruits you shall know them. Setting themselves up to be a light unto the people rather than Christ.

Sadly what will be left of the church will be the same broken spirit, shattered sense of unity or purpose and the inability to communicate rationally with others much like we find in America today.
Speaking of racism, at first I was offended by the stern denouncements of it, as if we were racist people, when I don’t know anybody who is. Yet, since then I’ve become aware of a handful of individuals here who cannot seem to hide their racism. Very surprising. Also, one dear personal friend has been making shocking generalities about blacks, and his consternation that they have been given the Priesthood. Unbelievable.

After all, it seems that some of us really did deserve the rebuke.

Serragon
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Posts: 3444

Re: The Tolerant and Inclusive Church

Post by Serragon »

Allison wrote: November 22nd, 2022, 9:35 am
Letfreedumbring wrote: November 22nd, 2022, 2:31 am
Serragon wrote: November 18th, 2022, 1:25 pm
EmmaLee brought up in another post the comparison of Obama to Nelson, and I think it very astute. Obama intentionally presented himself as a blank slate that his supporters could paint with their own desires. Obama fundamentally changed what it meant to be American for those who followed him, and the fruit of that is division and contention for most of us, but power for him and his friends. People still love Obama even though he instigated a fundamental shift in thinking for the democrats and the executive branch from representing and serving the people to ruling over them like a Chicago gang family. I think Nelson's pattern is similar. He wants a different church, and wants us to think about things differently and is doing what he can to make sure that happens.
This is very astute. Nelson has actually fractured the church much the same.

He has divided member against member with the unequal balance of power to favor one side over the other. Obama did this numerous times instigating while appearing removed but congratulating the victors (gay marriage, illegal immigration, victim identity formation, etc)

For Nelson this was with masks and mass vaccination. Allowing one side to claim the supposed moral high ground and punishing the other but this was different -- this was supposed to be a community of saints. Seriously, wearing a mask is Christ like?

RMN would also secretly jeer the other side by making it appear as if the older generation who were taught to believe certain things by the church were racist. This seems to be his focus making members of the church look like absolute fools while making himself out to be a savior of sorts. By their fruits you shall know them. Setting themselves up to be a light unto the people rather than Christ.

Sadly what will be left of the church will be the same broken spirit, shattered sense of unity or purpose and the inability to communicate rationally with others much like we find in America today.
Speaking of racism, at first I was offended by the stern denouncements of it, as if we were racist people, when I don’t know anybody who is. Yet, since then I’ve become aware of a handful of individuals here who cannot seem to hide their racism. Very surprising. Also, one dear personal friend has been making shocking generalities about blacks, and his consternation that they have been given the Priesthood. Unbelievable.

After all, it seems that some of us really did deserve the rebuke.
I don't disagree with you that there are racists and that there are still some in the church who still at least partially believe in the Cain theories.

But I felt that Pres. Nelsons and Oaks statements were pure pandering and that they were just taking a swipe at an easy target for political points. The context in which they were made and the language used verifies this.

White westerners are the least tribal people on the planet, yet they seem to get called out almost exclusively for being tribal. To see our church leaders join in on the dogpile doesn't make me think they are concerned about racism. It makes me think that they are concerned with having the correct opinions among their social peers. Seeing them side with actual black supremacist movements like BLM is just further proof of this.

It also bothers me that Pres. Nelson reserves this harsh and stern language for people who still believe some of these ideas when it was the church itself that instilled these ideas in them in the first place. Same goes with polygamists. I would expect an excess of compassion and empathy for these people, yet it seems just the opposite. We seem to have the least compassion for those monsters we ourselves created.

Lizzy60
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Posts: 8520

Re: The Tolerant and Inclusive Church

Post by Lizzy60 »

Featured on KSLTV yesterday. KSL is owned by the LDS Church.

Two and a half minutes.

https://ksltv.com/512345/utah-groups-ho ... sjEQkrFnzI

Susie Augenstein, interviewed in the news report, added this on her Facebook page:

“Let’s keep pushing forward. Allies are so needed. We especially need people who don’t have any lgbtq people in their lives yet to enter this space and help us create safe places in our neighborhoods, churches and communities.

It is one of the most sacred spaces I have entered. Come and join me in my little slice of Heaven!”

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h_p
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Re: The Tolerant and Inclusive Church

Post by h_p »

Allison wrote: November 22nd, 2022, 9:35 am Speaking of racism, at first I was offended by the stern denouncements of it, as if we were racist people, when I don’t know anybody who is. Yet, since then I’ve become aware of a handful of individuals here who cannot seem to hide their racism. Very surprising. Also, one dear personal friend has been making shocking generalities about blacks, and his consternation that they have been given the Priesthood. Unbelievable.

After all, it seems that some of us really did deserve the rebuke.
And where did they learn these things from? Church leadership might want to start getting acquainted with mirrors.

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pho·to·syn·the·sis
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Re: The Tolerant and Inclusive Church

Post by pho·to·syn·the·sis »

Serragon wrote: November 16th, 2022, 6:35 pm It is abundantly clear to me that RMN views himself as a transformational President who wants to fundamentally change the Church. There seem to be two main parts to this. First, which I will deal with in a separate thread, is the elevation of RMN as a celebrity who transcends the institution itself which allows him to enact the second part which is the Tolerant and Inclusive Church.

Since RMN, the church has been rapidly changing. The goal of all of these changes seems to be to make the first principles of the church be inclusiveness and tolerance. it seems that we want the church to be a place where everyone feels like they belong and are accepted as they are. A place where no one is judged or is made to feel uncomfortable about who they are or what they are doing.

The justification for this appears to be the commandment to love they neighbor and to be charitable. That this is how Christ ministered while in the flesh and we should model that. That He is no respecter of persons and that all are alike unto Him. That He invites all to Come unto Him.

But does the tolerant and inclusive church we see being crafted before us really model Christ's ministry? At the surface level, it seems appealing. We love. We invite. We share. We accept. We belong. And if Christ is Love and we are all His children, it seems to make sense.

But the reality is something different. Because Christ is not tolerant, and He is not inclusive.

Christ finds the lost sheep and brings it back. He does not allow all the sheep that are not His into the fold.

Christ is loving and provides us endless opportunities, but He still requires us to repent to be His. He does not change His standards or requirements in order to increase the size of his flock.

Christ wishes us to reach out to all with His message regardless of circumstance. In this He is no respecter of persons. But He does not allow those persons to redefine His message into something that fits their lifestyle. To be part of His flock, they must align themselves with Him. He will not align Himself with them.

Christ's flock is unified around Him and His commandments. Though they be from different cultures, they form a new culture around Christ. But the inclusive church has no unity, because the inclusive church can't agree on even the fundamental idea of who Christ was and what He commanded. Even worse, it appears that what the inclusive church is trying to build unity around is the leaders themselves as a proxy for Christ. You may not agree on whether murdering your own child is moral or not, but you can all unify around the idea that the apostles speak for God.

So the inclusive church seems to represent nothing and has no power. Its members have little in common and can't agree on the most fundamental ideas. They each bring the world with them to the church and identify their personal vices and desires with Christ. In the inclusive church, the only real sin is to not be tolerant of the sins of others. There is no unity. There is no zeal. There is no purpose. There is no point.

So things are manufactured to try and create purpose and interest, like a focus on regular temple attendance. But these fall short because these activities were never intended to be the goal, but the natural fruit that comes from discipleship.

And we change our preaching to focus on God's Love for you instead of your Love for God. We end up with a selfish people who view God as their personal vending machine of blessings and comfort instead of a selfless people who's actions are all prompted by their deep Love for God.

What do you think? Is this inclusive and tolerant church why the Gospel was restored? is this what God was trying to build with the early Saints? Does it really lead people to repentance and discipleship? Or does it create an environment where people feel justified in their sin?
It is almost what I would deem textbook “rebranding “ . For example:

1. Logo
2. Name
3. Media image
4. Message
5. Disassociate from past

https://m.economictimes.com/definition/rebranding/amp

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Chip
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Re: The Tolerant and Inclusive Church

Post by Chip »

pho·to·syn·the·sis wrote: November 22nd, 2022, 11:13 am
Serragon wrote: November 16th, 2022, 6:35 pm It is abundantly clear to me that RMN views himself as a transformational President who wants to fundamentally change the Church. There seem to be two main parts to this. First, which I will deal with in a separate thread, is the elevation of RMN as a celebrity who transcends the institution itself which allows him to enact the second part which is the Tolerant and Inclusive Church.

Since RMN, the church has been rapidly changing. The goal of all of these changes seems to be to make the first principles of the church be inclusiveness and tolerance. it seems that we want the church to be a place where everyone feels like they belong and are accepted as they are. A place where no one is judged or is made to feel uncomfortable about who they are or what they are doing.

The justification for this appears to be the commandment to love they neighbor and to be charitable. That this is how Christ ministered while in the flesh and we should model that. That He is no respecter of persons and that all are alike unto Him. That He invites all to Come unto Him.

But does the tolerant and inclusive church we see being crafted before us really model Christ's ministry? At the surface level, it seems appealing. We love. We invite. We share. We accept. We belong. And if Christ is Love and we are all His children, it seems to make sense.

But the reality is something different. Because Christ is not tolerant, and He is not inclusive.

Christ finds the lost sheep and brings it back. He does not allow all the sheep that are not His into the fold.

Christ is loving and provides us endless opportunities, but He still requires us to repent to be His. He does not change His standards or requirements in order to increase the size of his flock.

Christ wishes us to reach out to all with His message regardless of circumstance. In this He is no respecter of persons. But He does not allow those persons to redefine His message into something that fits their lifestyle. To be part of His flock, they must align themselves with Him. He will not align Himself with them.

Christ's flock is unified around Him and His commandments. Though they be from different cultures, they form a new culture around Christ. But the inclusive church has no unity, because the inclusive church can't agree on even the fundamental idea of who Christ was and what He commanded. Even worse, it appears that what the inclusive church is trying to build unity around is the leaders themselves as a proxy for Christ. You may not agree on whether murdering your own child is moral or not, but you can all unify around the idea that the apostles speak for God.

So the inclusive church seems to represent nothing and has no power. Its members have little in common and can't agree on the most fundamental ideas. They each bring the world with them to the church and identify their personal vices and desires with Christ. In the inclusive church, the only real sin is to not be tolerant of the sins of others. There is no unity. There is no zeal. There is no purpose. There is no point.

So things are manufactured to try and create purpose and interest, like a focus on regular temple attendance. But these fall short because these activities were never intended to be the goal, but the natural fruit that comes from discipleship.

And we change our preaching to focus on God's Love for you instead of your Love for God. We end up with a selfish people who view God as their personal vending machine of blessings and comfort instead of a selfless people who's actions are all prompted by their deep Love for God.

What do you think? Is this inclusive and tolerant church why the Gospel was restored? is this what God was trying to build with the early Saints? Does it really lead people to repentance and discipleship? Or does it create an environment where people feel justified in their sin?
It is almost what I would deem textbook “rebranding “ . For example:

1. Logo
2. Name
3. Media image
4. Message
5. Disassociate from past

https://m.economictimes.com/definition/rebranding/amp

I was thinking the same thing last night. They are rebranding and going for a younger, more liberal market.

"This is not your father's Oldsmobile."

CuriousThinker
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Posts: 1187

Re: The Tolerant and Inclusive Church

Post by CuriousThinker »

Lizzy60 wrote: November 22nd, 2022, 10:41 am Featured on KSLTV yesterday. KSL is owned by the LDS Church.

Two and a half minutes.

https://ksltv.com/512345/utah-groups-ho ... sjEQkrFnzI

Susie Augenstein, interviewed in the news report, added this on her Facebook page:

“Let’s keep pushing forward. Allies are so needed. We especially need people who don’t have any lgbtq people in their lives yet to enter this space and help us create safe places in our neighborhoods, churches and communities.

It is one of the most sacred spaces I have entered. Come and join me in my little slice of Heaven!”
So now being a peculiar people is going to be altered to fit an agenda. Just like the rainbow.

Lizzy60
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Posts: 8520

Re: The Tolerant and Inclusive Church

Post by Lizzy60 »

CuriousThinker wrote: November 22nd, 2022, 1:15 pm
Lizzy60 wrote: November 22nd, 2022, 10:41 am Featured on KSLTV yesterday. KSL is owned by the LDS Church.

Two and a half minutes.

https://ksltv.com/512345/utah-groups-ho ... sjEQkrFnzI

Susie Augenstein, interviewed in the news report, added this on her Facebook page:

“Let’s keep pushing forward. Allies are so needed. We especially need people who don’t have any lgbtq people in their lives yet to enter this space and help us create safe places in our neighborhoods, churches and communities.

It is one of the most sacred spaces I have entered. Come and join me in my little slice of Heaven!”
So now being a peculiar people is going to be altered to fit an agenda. Just like the rainbow.
That is just a sample of the unique “Mormon” things the pro-LGBTQ LDS groups have usurped.

endlessQuestions
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Posts: 6426

Re: The Tolerant and Inclusive Church

Post by endlessQuestions »

Lizzy60 wrote: November 22nd, 2022, 10:41 am Featured on KSLTV yesterday. KSL is owned by the LDS Church.

Two and a half minutes.

https://ksltv.com/512345/utah-groups-ho ... sjEQkrFnzI

Susie Augenstein, interviewed in the news report, added this on her Facebook page:

“Let’s keep pushing forward. Allies are so needed. We especially need people who don’t have any lgbtq people in their lives yet to enter this space and help us create safe places in our neighborhoods, churches and communities.

It is one of the most sacred spaces I have entered. Come and join me in my little slice of Heaven!”
Here’s the problem I’ve encountered:

I would really like to have more LGBTQ people in my life, because it is clearly a group that has real and significant needs. Problem is, they don’t want me in THEIR life because the first time you don’t agree with any position they take, on anything, you’ve rejected THEM, apparently.

And I’m not talking one or two people here. A couple dozen experiences, maybe, over the past twenty years or so?

So, from where I stand, they’re not looking for “allies”, they’re looking for “tools” that will help them pursue their agenda. It’s a sad state of affairs.

HVDC
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2600

Re: The Tolerant and Inclusive Church

Post by HVDC »

endlessismyname wrote: November 22nd, 2022, 1:54 pm
Lizzy60 wrote: November 22nd, 2022, 10:41 am Featured on KSLTV yesterday. KSL is owned by the LDS Church.

Two and a half minutes.

https://ksltv.com/512345/utah-groups-ho ... sjEQkrFnzI

Susie Augenstein, interviewed in the news report, added this on her Facebook page:

“Let’s keep pushing forward. Allies are so needed. We especially need people who don’t have any lgbtq people in their lives yet to enter this space and help us create safe places in our neighborhoods, churches and communities.

It is one of the most sacred spaces I have entered. Come and join me in my little slice of Heaven!”
Here’s the problem I’ve encountered:

I would really like to have more LGBTQ people in my life, because it is clearly a group that has real and significant needs. Problem is, they don’t want me in THEIR life because the first time you don’t agree with any position they take, on anything, you’ve rejected THEM, apparently.

And I’m not talking one or two people here. A couple dozen experiences, maybe, over the past twenty years or so?

So, from where I stand, they’re not looking for “allies”, they’re looking for “tools” that will help them pursue their agenda. It’s a sad state of affairs.
Dupes.

Tools.

Fools.

The only real problem.

They are dragging us with them.

Enjoy the show.

It's just started.

Sir H

endlessQuestions
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Posts: 6426

Re: The Tolerant and Inclusive Church

Post by endlessQuestions »

HVDC wrote: November 22nd, 2022, 1:57 pm
endlessismyname wrote: November 22nd, 2022, 1:54 pm
Lizzy60 wrote: November 22nd, 2022, 10:41 am Featured on KSLTV yesterday. KSL is owned by the LDS Church.

Two and a half minutes.

https://ksltv.com/512345/utah-groups-ho ... sjEQkrFnzI

Susie Augenstein, interviewed in the news report, added this on her Facebook page:

“Let’s keep pushing forward. Allies are so needed. We especially need people who don’t have any lgbtq people in their lives yet to enter this space and help us create safe places in our neighborhoods, churches and communities.

It is one of the most sacred spaces I have entered. Come and join me in my little slice of Heaven!”
Here’s the problem I’ve encountered:

I would really like to have more LGBTQ people in my life, because it is clearly a group that has real and significant needs. Problem is, they don’t want me in THEIR life because the first time you don’t agree with any position they take, on anything, you’ve rejected THEM, apparently.

And I’m not talking one or two people here. A couple dozen experiences, maybe, over the past twenty years or so?

So, from where I stand, they’re not looking for “allies”, they’re looking for “tools” that will help them pursue their agenda. It’s a sad state of affairs.
Dupes.

Tools.

Fools.

The only real problem.

They are dragging us with them.

Enjoy the show.

It's just started.

Sir H
Now where did I put those rotten tomatoes? I know they’re around here somewhere…

spiritMan
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2277

Re: The Tolerant and Inclusive Church

Post by spiritMan »

endlessismyname wrote: November 22nd, 2022, 1:54 pm
Lizzy60 wrote: November 22nd, 2022, 10:41 am Featured on KSLTV yesterday. KSL is owned by the LDS Church.

Two and a half minutes.

https://ksltv.com/512345/utah-groups-ho ... sjEQkrFnzI

Susie Augenstein, interviewed in the news report, added this on her Facebook page:

“Let’s keep pushing forward. Allies are so needed. We especially need people who don’t have any lgbtq people in their lives yet to enter this space and help us create safe places in our neighborhoods, churches and communities.

It is one of the most sacred spaces I have entered. Come and join me in my little slice of Heaven!”
And I’m not talking one or two people here. A couple dozen experiences, maybe, over the past twenty years or so?

So, from where I stand, they’re not looking for “allies”, they’re looking for “tools” that will help them pursue their agenda. It’s a sad state of affairs.
Yes, because on the whole as a group they are some of the most spoiled, self-righteous, narcissistic people to walk the planet. They have a love of self.
They are self-gratifying not self emptying.

endlessQuestions
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Posts: 6426

Re: The Tolerant and Inclusive Church

Post by endlessQuestions »

randyps wrote: November 21st, 2022, 10:50 pm
Serragon wrote: November 16th, 2022, 6:35 pm
What do you think? Is this inclusive and tolerant church why the Gospel was restored? is this what God was trying to build with the early Saints? Does it really lead people to repentance and discipleship? Or does it create an environment where people feel justified in their sin?
https://youtu.be/Mw0LiyYltco?t=259

This may have your answer. listen from the 4:00- 10:00 min mark
Not sure what I was supposed to glean from this. All I saw was some hollow chested men pontificating and nodding a lot.

Serragon
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Posts: 3444

Re: The Tolerant and Inclusive Church

Post by Serragon »

endlessismyname wrote: November 22nd, 2022, 5:40 pm
randyps wrote: November 21st, 2022, 10:50 pm
Serragon wrote: November 16th, 2022, 6:35 pm
What do you think? Is this inclusive and tolerant church why the Gospel was restored? is this what God was trying to build with the early Saints? Does it really lead people to repentance and discipleship? Or does it create an environment where people feel justified in their sin?
https://youtu.be/Mw0LiyYltco?t=259

This may have your answer. listen from the 4:00- 10:00 min mark
Not sure what I was supposed to glean from this. All I saw was some hollow chested men pontificating and nodding a lot.
I am guessing that Randy thinks the church really isn't changing, but is just implementing the covenant in a different way now.

I agree that it seems to be a rather large stretch. But this is the kind of stuff that happens when peoples faith is institution based. It doesn't matter what gets uttered from the leaders. It will be received as though it were a new revelation and these talking heads will immediately begin coming up with stories to make it fit into the narrative. i have come to realize that this is really all that is happening anymore. None of it makes any sense when you look at it from the macro level, but at the micro level these 'truths" can stand in isolation of one another.

Letfreedumbring
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Posts: 267

Re: The Tolerant and Inclusive Church

Post by Letfreedumbring »

Serragon wrote: November 22nd, 2022, 10:27 am
It also bothers me that Pres. Nelson reserves this harsh and stern language for people who still believe some of these ideas when it was the church itself that instilled these ideas in them in the first place. Same goes with polygamists. I would expect an excess of compassion and empathy for these people, yet it seems just the opposite. We seem to have the least compassion for those monsters we ourselves created.
Some people will be racist with or without religion but the issue is when you have a religion preaching it without accountability.

Elder Packer said "True doctrine, understood, changes attitudes and behavior." (Conference Reports, Oct. 1986, p. 20) What he forgot to mention is so does false doctrine. The reverse is also true. It is harder to change that behavior when it is associated with what is believed to be a doctrine of the gospel.

This is where in the scriptures they say "nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men." (2 Nephi 28:9) Imagine a church that teaches a doctrinal form of racism or polygamy as it relates to salvation and then after undoing this practice(s) condemns its own members for ever having followed it in the first place while taking no responsibility or offering any explanation for their own past pronouncements.
Last edited by Letfreedumbring on November 23rd, 2022, 2:58 am, edited 3 times in total.

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ransomme
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Re: The Tolerant and Inclusive Church

Post by ransomme »

Tolerant and inclusive = weak and dying

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Luke
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Re: The Tolerant and Inclusive Church

Post by Luke »

Serragon wrote: November 22nd, 2022, 10:27 am It also bothers me that Pres. Nelson reserves this harsh and stern language for people who still believe some of these ideas when it was the church itself that instilled these ideas in them in the first place. Same goes with polygamists. I would expect an excess of compassion and empathy for these people, yet it seems just the opposite. We seem to have the least compassion for those monsters heroes of the Fullness of the Gospel we ourselves created.
Fixed it for ya

Mamabear
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Re: The Tolerant and Inclusive Church

Post by Mamabear »

A relative of mine who is not a member of the church asked me why I don’t go there anymore. I said I cut out the middle man between myself and God…..The mediator is Jesus and none else.

Serragon
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Posts: 3444

Re: The Tolerant and Inclusive Church

Post by Serragon »

Luke wrote: November 23rd, 2022, 2:46 am
Serragon wrote: November 22nd, 2022, 10:27 am It also bothers me that Pres. Nelson reserves this harsh and stern language for people who still believe some of these ideas when it was the church itself that instilled these ideas in them in the first place. Same goes with polygamists. I would expect an excess of compassion and empathy for these people, yet it seems just the opposite. We seem to have the least compassion for those monsters heroes of the Fullness of the Gospel we ourselves created.
Fixed it for ya
I know this is what you believe, but i was using the term as from the perspective of the church. They consider these folks among the most sinful and are quick with punishment instead of mercy for them, yet they are the major cause of why they believe what they do.

if I had taught one of my children to believe something and then I later changed my belief, I would not be angry with my child. Yet here we are today where a homosexual marriage is much more accepted than a polygamous one, the latter getting you an automatic excommunication from the church.

People who still believe the teachings of previous presidents of the church are treated with more disdain and anger than anyone else. It makes me think they are like the embarrassing children at the dinner table, and the church would rather have them punished and have them go away than they have compassion to try and change their hearts. Not very Christian in my opinion.

endlessQuestions
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Posts: 6426

Re: The Tolerant and Inclusive Church

Post by endlessQuestions »

Serragon wrote: November 16th, 2022, 6:35 pm It is abundantly clear to me that RMN views himself as a transformational President who wants to fundamentally change the Church. There seem to be two main parts to this. First, which I will deal with in a separate thread, is the elevation of RMN as a celebrity who transcends the institution itself which allows him to enact the second part which is the Tolerant and Inclusive Church.

Since RMN, the church has been rapidly changing. The goal of all of these changes seems to be to make the first principles of the church be inclusiveness and tolerance. it seems that we want the church to be a place where everyone feels like they belong and are accepted as they are. A place where no one is judged or is made to feel uncomfortable about who they are or what they are doing.

The justification for this appears to be the commandment to love they neighbor and to be charitable. That this is how Christ ministered while in the flesh and we should model that. That He is no respecter of persons and that all are alike unto Him. That He invites all to Come unto Him.

But does the tolerant and inclusive church we see being crafted before us really model Christ's ministry? At the surface level, it seems appealing. We love. We invite. We share. We accept. We belong. And if Christ is Love and we are all His children, it seems to make sense.

But the reality is something different. Because Christ is not tolerant, and He is not inclusive.

Christ finds the lost sheep and brings it back. He does not allow all the sheep that are not His into the fold.

Christ is loving and provides us endless opportunities, but He still requires us to repent to be His. He does not change His standards or requirements in order to increase the size of his flock.

Christ wishes us to reach out to all with His message regardless of circumstance. In this He is no respecter of persons. But He does not allow those persons to redefine His message into something that fits their lifestyle. To be part of His flock, they must align themselves with Him. He will not align Himself with them.

Christ's flock is unified around Him and His commandments. Though they be from different cultures, they form a new culture around Christ. But the inclusive church has no unity, because the inclusive church can't agree on even the fundamental idea of who Christ was and what He commanded. Even worse, it appears that what the inclusive church is trying to build unity around is the leaders themselves as a proxy for Christ. You may not agree on whether murdering your own child is moral or not, but you can all unify around the idea that the apostles speak for God.

So the inclusive church seems to represent nothing and has no power. Its members have little in common and can't agree on the most fundamental ideas. They each bring the world with them to the church and identify their personal vices and desires with Christ. In the inclusive church, the only real sin is to not be tolerant of the sins of others. There is no unity. There is no zeal. There is no purpose. There is no point.

So things are manufactured to try and create purpose and interest, like a focus on regular temple attendance. But these fall short because these activities were never intended to be the goal, but the natural fruit that comes from discipleship.

And we change our preaching to focus on God's Love for you instead of your Love for God. We end up with a selfish people who view God as their personal vending machine of blessings and comfort instead of a selfless people who's actions are all prompted by their deep Love for God.

What do you think? Is this inclusive and tolerant church why the Gospel was restored? is this what God was trying to build with the early Saints? Does it really lead people to repentance and discipleship? Or does it create an environment where people feel justified in their sin?
Serragon,

First and foremost, thank you so very much for this incredibly thoughtful piece of writing.

I've been praying, meditating, and discussing this post with others for a couple days now. There's one statement you made I'd like to challenge, not in a confrontational way, but in a way that might provoke more discussion. You say:

"Christ is not tolerant, and He is not inclusive".

May I suggest that Christ is indeed tolerant? Even infinitely tolerant?

But that tolerance does not obligate one to be inclusive?

And that, indeed, as you so rightly pointed out, Christ will exclude many from His flock when the appointed time arrives.

God forbid it is any of us.

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Dusty Wanderer
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Re: The Tolerant and Inclusive Church

Post by Dusty Wanderer »

Serragon wrote: November 17th, 2022, 1:36 pm
EmmaLee wrote: November 17th, 2022, 1:16 pm When Barack Hussein Obama was running for president, he ran his campaign on “change” and said he would “fundamentally transform America.” Then after he was elected, for eight years he added action to his words, and America has indeed been transformed, fundamentally - and we are seeing the abundant, stinking, rotten fruits of that today. He, and the other Marxist globalists (redundant), are still doing this via their dementia-riddled fraudulent "President" Biden.

The Church always follows the trends of the government, usually by several years or so, depending.

RMNelson is to the LDS Church what Obama was (is) to the United States (and to the world, by extension). If Nelson had a slogan, it would be "I will fundamentally transform the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." And indeed, he has done so, and continues to do so on a frighteningly regular basis. The rotten fruits from this are also readily apparent and should be obvious.
This is an excellent observation.
So who will be President Nelson's Biden?
Last edited by Dusty Wanderer on November 23rd, 2022, 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Dusty Wanderer
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Re: The Tolerant and Inclusive Church

Post by Dusty Wanderer »

Jamescm wrote: November 17th, 2022, 3:27 pm If I'm so deluded that I tell you to call me a woman, what good are you to my long-term or spiritual wellbeing if you're so equally corrupt as to acquiesce and call me a woman? As of this moment, there is no church with the courage and honesty to publicly stand by these principles, and that testifies of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith.
Well said. So many are, in a sense, crying out for help and we're telling them there's nothing wrong with you, you don't need help. And at the same time, if someone has difficulty walking, it's better to cut off our own legs so they don't realize that others may have the ability to walk and feel bad, or worse, be encouraged to learn how to walk or move about on their own.

Letfreedumbring
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Re: The Tolerant and Inclusive Church

Post by Letfreedumbring »

Dusty Wanderer wrote: November 23rd, 2022, 2:25 pm
So who will be President Nelson's Biden?
Monson's presidency enters and leaves the chat.

Oaks, Ballard or Holland seems a close second.

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