Official Church statement: Respect for Marriage Act

[John Tavner]

My brother, I think the sins we should be calling out is the sin in ourselves, when I look into the mirror every morning to wash my face I am staring at the worst devil and sinner that I will ever encounter and I will spend a life time striving with him..

While I agree, allow to pose a question to you. In my family one of our nieces has recently come out as gay and she is currently in a relationship with another young lady. Her current belief is that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality because she was “born that way” so God must have made her gay. So therefore she sees nothing wrong with dating and possibly marrying her girlfriend. If you were in my shoes would you tell her that God loves her no matter what she chooses? Or would you lovingly point her to the scriptures were she can read for herself what God has to say about those who choose to live that lifestyle?

I wasn't asked, but in my journey I would probably do something of the following, first ask God so that I might see her as He sees her. Then trust in the Spirit. My initial thought, though would be to do the first step and then when hte moment is right, trusting in the Lord, teach her about who God and Christ really are. Teach her about how they bring life to the world. Sowing seeds. HOw God made us in His image, that because of hte fall we've become deceived, that lies have been planted in all of us that we all believe things we shouldn't and Christ came to expose the lie and allow us to live in Truth. That Adam and Eve were created with the purpose of propogating hte image of God and not of man, but because man fell, it needs be born again. If she gets born again, I believe she will know- and God meets peole wherever they are as long as they come to them and HE doesn't want them to stay there. We can do it with ulterior motive, but share with her how there is a law of sin and death, and Christ came to remove us from that law. Sowing seeds that life is of God. If it doesn't produce life, it isn't of God (as she wrestles with that seed, choosing to accept or reject it , we can water through our love and manifesting hte love of God to her, continuign to water the word with words of LIfe. It will click at some point that Lesbianism can not bring forth life, therefore it can't be of God nor can it be accepted. There may be a point when she asks about it in an accusatory way even in defense. YOu can replay with a question, often as teh Savior did.As she faces truth, she either has to accept it or reject it, but she won't be able to live decieved anymore. All this though, as you know can only be done in pure love, without projection. or with very little projection, because she will know. I'm not even saying it is easy, but I really Believe God can be in that encounter.

She already "feels" that is her lifestyle or likely that she can't "escape" it. We have to teach her she is free and it never was who she identitfies as,.

I appreciate you taking the abstract principles constantly espoused by TheChristian and giving them a practical implementation. I think most of us are actually very much in alignment with each other, and it is easier to see at the practical level.

There is much power in abstraction. It allows us to get our minds around ideas and concepts that would be difficult to do otherwise. But ultimately these abstractions must have some implementation attached to them to have any value in our lives. And this is where the great danger of abstraction lies. When we divorce our ideas and principles from the practical, there is no limit to where those ideas can take you. We end up with great evil when others attempt to put an implementation to those impractical ideas, or with complete isolation from reality.

TheChristian talks constantly in the abstract. "preach Christ" "Look to the Cross". Abstract ideas that no one disagrees with, but are absolutely meaningless without some practical application. Wehn no one can agree on what it means to "Preach Christ,", what is the point of the constant repetition of the abstract idea? When the one person believes that Christ requires they give up their natural man and the other believes it means that Christ wants you to indulge yourself in it, of what use is the constant refrain "Preach Christ"? This is the very issue Joseph struggled with. And it is the direction our church is heading by trying to be tolerant and inclusive by removing the practical aspects of our faith.

So again, thank you for providing some practical application. The abstract is a very comfortable and safe place to live, but it takes a courageous Christian who is interested in the actual implementation of those principles to help bring the power of Godliness to peoples lives. Zion wasn't built on abstract ideas and preaching. King Lamoni's people were not brought to an understanding of their need for a Savior through abstraction. It took real people implementing those principles in their lives.

Yeah, it's hard sometimes sharing a principle not in the abstract because sometimes we want a method (I'm not at all saying you are doing this) but we have a tendency to look for methods. It's like casting out evil spirits. I know in my history I at one point had turned it into a method "raise the hand to the square and cast out in Jesus' name" "fast in order to cast out" etc and then it didn't work one day. Then when we fast or we raise our arm to the square and it doesn't work we throw up our arms and claim it doesn't work and doubt God or think we aren't worthy or any other thing. I think it is good to give examples and ideas, but it is dangerous for us to take them and apply each one of them as a set method. But it is absolutely good to hear examples as long as that is made as a caveat. It was through examples given and taught that I have been able to understand more of what it looks like to be a Christian. For instance I know people who have casted out devils through hugs, through singing a song, through just teaching truth, and through a prayer that the person wasn't even aware of until the entity was gone. Sometimes it is just patience and knowledge God will work even if it doesn't seem that way in the moment. All of these are viable methods when done out of love for the person and through the Spirit. Found my Eden gave a good example of them expressing truth without projection because of their experience. I also think that sometimes it is difficult to express what it means to preach CHrist because I know for me as I've learned more, I realize that things I say don't mean the same to others, because for me the meaning is so different than how they perceive and understand even the words I use.

For instance when I say preach Christ and I suspect The Christian has a similar view, maybe slightly different, - I am thinking of preaching of His transformative power, of how He didn't come to expose our sin - the law was already doing that, but rather to reveal that we are all Sons and Daughters of God. He came to put our sins into remission by His grace through faith and to reveal our true value of who God has called us to be and how to live, to expose the lie and reflect how we can be free from the power of sin and death through His name and He gave us His Spirit to do so - and it is only through Him and His incredible mercy and the life He gave that we can do so. So Christ preached reveals to us that we should no longer view ourselves as fallen after we are born again, though we live in a fallen world. It is the purpose of baptism, which is us "dying" to our former life and being "raised" in a new one with and in Christ - we are to consider our selves dead to sin and alive unto Christ. The hardest battle is retraining our mind to see ourselves as God sees us, but in so doing we allow Him to work through us, we can then "approach the throne of grace in boldness" not because of anything we've done, but because we believe more what HE Has done and What HE has done for us. IT truly begins to set us free. Often times our past mistakes or even new mistakes may creep up and attempt to deceive us, but as Jesus said "call thou not unclean that which hath been made clean." We have to start believing we've been made clean and trust that GOd's cleanliness doesn't just "disappear" because we let the lies get a hold of us for a day or a moment. If this happens we immediately turn back to GOd and accept His mercy and grace. I don't think most people have this view. When we realize our true identity and what God has given us, it really can set us free. As I've learned this, I"ve come to just love God more and naturally I desire to live His commandments, not because I "fear" hell or anything, but because I love Him. Jesus didn't come to rebuke us, but to save us, HE doesn't reject me If I mess up. He still gave His life for me and If I keep hold of that faith and hope, and realize taht His grace is more powerful than my sin (for where sin abounds, grace abounds more) I can wake up daily and realize that I am free and there was a lie that followed me all my life telling me I was weak... it was a lie because the part that was left out was I am weak by myself, but in Christ I can do all things, because of Christ I can do all things, because of Christ I am not weak, I am a Son who has been given the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead and if that Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead dwells in us, can it not quicken us?

There is a lot more to that message above, but that message alone, I believe has the power to change lives more so than the traditional message of "You are going to hell if you don't believe in Jesus and if you sin all you can do is wait till Jesus comes... Also you are always going to be a terrible person and will never escape, but thank God for Jesus who saved a worthless wretch like me, who is still worthless and still a wretch and I deny the fact that God has called me to be a Son and reject His grace and mercy and exalt my sin above His word so I will remain in hurt and pain all the days of my life waiting for my god of death to occur so I can finally meet Jesus and no longer live in this wretched life." The whole time I'm rejecting the Kingdom of God that God has offered me here and now and rejecting His transformative power. also, to be clear I'm not mad at people who believe that, I don't hate them, I just believe it is a lie of the devil from the beginning and it is how we remain in the same state forever and don't see the transformative power of Christ because we let what we see and our experience determine what we believe rather than the word of God which is "the Truth will set you free" and "22But NOW He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present YOU holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence — 23if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.(Col 1:22). Baptism is a contact point of faith for that transformation - we die to sin and are raised in Christ. We acknowledge before God that the way we thought and acted is not who God called us to be and we consider our selves dead to that - even if our past or wrong thinking tries to rise up like a zombie, we put it to death and put on Christ daily - renewed in the Spirit of our minds.

For me that Gospel sets people free because I believe it is truth. Anyways, that was a lot longer than I intended and was a lot of unsolicited thought.

[FoundMyEden]

I wasn't asked, but in my journey I would probably do something of the following, first ask God so that I might see her as He sees her. Then trust in the Spirit. My initial thought, though would be to do the first step and then when hte moment is right, trusting in the Lord, teach her about who God and Christ really are. Teach her about how they bring life to the world. Sowing seeds. HOw God made us in His image, that because of hte fall we've become deceived, that lies have been planted in all of us that we all believe things we shouldn't and Christ came to expose the lie and allow us to live in Truth. That Adam and Eve were created with the purpose of propogating hte image of God and not of man, but because man fell, it needs be born again. If she gets born again, I believe she will know- and God meets peole wherever they are as long as they come to them and HE doesn't want them to stay there. We can do it with ulterior motive, but share with her how there is a law of sin and death, and Christ came to remove us from that law. Sowing seeds that life is of God. If it doesn't produce life, it isn't of God (as she wrestles with that seed, choosing to accept or reject it , we can water through our love and manifesting hte love of God to her, continuign to water the word with words of LIfe. It will click at some point that Lesbianism can not bring forth life, therefore it can't be of God nor can it be accepted. There may be a point when she asks about it in an accusatory way even in defense. YOu can replay with a question, often as teh Savior did.As she faces truth, she either has to accept it or reject it, but she won't be able to live decieved anymore. All this though, as you know can only be done in pure love, without projection. or with very little projection, because she will know. I'm not even saying it is easy, but I really Believe God can be in that encounter.

She already "feels" that is her lifestyle or likely that she can't "escape" it. We have to teach her she is free and it never was who she identitfies as,.

As much as I would have loved to do and say all that we don’t see or talk to her all that much. Her parents have already caved to her lifestyle, and now they are even more emboldened in their beliefs with the churches recent support of gay marriage. All my wife and I had was a 30 minute telephone conversation with her. As much as I can appreciate what it is that you are trying to say, sometimes you have to speak the truth boldly and plainly.

I call it out boldly and plainly. I have a child who wants to claim ssa. I tell her we love her but it’s obvious when you look at the design of creation that ssa will only prevent life, not continue it, therefore it’s not of God. We love our children but do not pander to their emotions that will cause obvious damning to their lives. I have a brother-in-law who lived the lifestyle, came out of it, and is struggling with going back into it because he does not want to carry his cross. He thinks he has to do it alone, but he doesn’t. We love him but again do not support those decisions if he chooses to live a ssa lifestyle. I struggled with ssa growing up but did not recognize it as “I was born this way” anymore than someone who struggled with anything in this world. I had suffered a lot of abuse from men and I believe that was my emotional state for denial towards the opposite sex. But ssa can be overcome and it IS a choice. It is not something that someone should have to hide if they struggle but it shouldn’t be thrown in peoples faces as something that people should accept and can’t be overcome. It should be overcome. It’s not natural, it’s not productive to society, and it’s not truth. It is a lie and a deception from the adversary. I speak the truth being a person who has struggled with it, but overcame it. So I can speak from both sides, and I speak it boldly.

*edit for spelling

Thank you. I have had close family members and friends who have attractions to the same sex. They simply do not nourish those emotions. They are happy and do not feel any sense of oppression for not being able to indulge their natural man.

This is how the church used to deal with this issue. But since they have gone down the path of homosexuality as an identity, it is now near impossible to help people overcome this particular weakness. They feel justified in their behavior instead of seeing a need to overcome. In addition, there is no indulgence of the natural man that cannot be justified by claiming that your desires are actually your identity and thereby not only justified but celebrated in the eyes of God. This radical change our leaders have implemented is going to be our undoing. God won't support a people who claim to be His while actually standing for hedonism.

Thank you. Yes, this acceptance of homosexuality as normalcy and abortion will be their undoing.

[FoundMyEden]

• Do we, or do we not believe that Satan and his angels have power to possess our bodies?
• Did Christ spend the majority of His ministry casting out devils and unclean spirits?
• What would be the result of unclean spirits, of the opposite sex of the victim, entered into the body of a son or daughter of God?
• Do you think you would be more focused on casting out devils and unclean spirits?

This is truth also

[The Red Pill]

You know things are BAD...when the Southern Baptists are the adult's in the room.

"The head of the Southern Baptist’s public policy arm, Brent Leatherwood of the Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission, faulted the bill’s Senate backers for pushing legislation "that will only divide us."

"We oppose this bill because marriage is an institution created by God, one with a very specific design: A union between one man and one woman for life," Leatherwood said via email.

Q15 are waaaaaay off the reservation on this one...

Come to think of it...they have been off the reservation on MANY things lately.

What does my wife tell her Catholic colleague who asked why the Mormons would support such a thing??? That missionary opportunity just VAPORIZED!!

[Christianlee]

You know things are BAD...when the Southern Baptists are the adult's in the room.

"The head of the Southern Baptist’s public policy arm, Brent Leatherwood of the Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission, faulted the bill’s Senate backers for pushing legislation "that will only divide us."

"We oppose this bill because marriage is an institution created by God, one with a very specific design: A union between one man and one woman for life," Leatherwood said via email.

Q15 are waaaaaay off the reservation on this one...

Come to think of it...they have been off the reservation on MANY things lately.

What does my wife tell her Catholic colleague who asked why the Mormons would support such a thing??? That missionary opportunity just VAPORIZED!!

They have just gone to a newer, woker reservation where the Unitarian Universalists, liberal Jews and liberal mainline Protestants have prepared new beds for them. Things have changed a lot in just a decade.

[spiritMan]

What does my wife tell her Catholic colleague who asked why the Mormons would support such a thing??? That missionary opportunity just VAPORIZED!!

They are signaling. No traditional Christians should ever consider Mormonism right now. It's a train wreck.

[dwell_in_safety]

I had the time to look at these responses, some of them alarming, others good, others that are quite off base.

The Church will NEVER accept same sex marriage inside of the religion, much less inside the temples. However, the Church realizes that it lives in a pluralistic society, and as such has come to terms that it has no right to FORCE its definition of marriage on other people. Conversely, the Church in its statement also implied that the government and others have no right to FORCE THEIR definition of marriage on top of the Church, and such efforts would be fought against.

The Church simply cannot say we hate gay marriage anymore. Many Western nations have adopted it, and several Christian ministers and Islamic Imams have actually faced bans from entry into several Western countries for daring to call out homosexuality as a sin and endorsing conversion therapy. If they haven't been banned outright from those countries, several venues of those countries have said that they will not accept any of them to do any activities on their venues.

Imagine if the Church's leaders decided to use the same type of language that President Kimball and President Benson used in the 60s up into the 80s. Social Media? Forget about it! ESG? Down the tubes. Bank accounts? Potentially blocked (this is already in the woodworks). Persecution to the point of confiscation of buildings and temples and making the Church illegal in those countries? You betcha.

It's not that I do not have faith. It's not that the Church doesn't have faith. The Church has to be smart. We members have to be smart. Association with a forum like this could be seen as bad.

I'll let President George Albert Smith answer you.

"The Lord says, “Woe unto you, when all men speak well of you!” Luke 6:26 Sometimes I have known the papers say this and that good thing about the “Mormons,” and I have said, “What's up? Are we getting wicked, that the world loves us?” And I almost wondered at it. The fact is we should live our religion, keep the commandments of God and observe all things required of us, and care nothing whatever what the world either says or does about us. “Well, but suppose they should get up armies and kill you?” If they do they will send us right straight to heaven; and [p. 297b] our duty is to labor in this life as long as we can and do all the good in our power, and never flinch from the truth or the principles of eternity. If our enemies are permitted to kill us they ensure to us a martyr's crown, and we go to glory celestial. "

https://scriptures.byu.edu/#08e:t1fbf2$67259:c08e0626

[Luke]

I had the time to look at these responses, some of them alarming, others good, others that are quite off base.

The Church will NEVER accept same sex marriage inside of the religion, much less inside the temples. However, the Church realizes that it lives in a pluralistic society, and as such has come to terms that it has no right to FORCE its definition of marriage on other people. Conversely, the Church in its statement also implied that the government and others have no right to FORCE THEIR definition of marriage on top of the Church, and such efforts would be fought against.

The Church simply cannot say we hate gay marriage anymore. Many Western nations have adopted it, and several Christian ministers and Islamic Imams have actually faced bans from entry into several Western countries for daring to call out homosexuality as a sin and endorsing conversion therapy. If they haven't been banned outright from those countries, several venues of those countries have said that they will not accept any of them to do any activities on their venues.

Imagine if the Church's leaders decided to use the same type of language that President Kimball and President Benson used in the 60s up into the 80s. Social Media? Forget about it! ESG? Down the tubes. Bank accounts? Potentially blocked (this is already in the woodworks). Persecution to the point of confiscation of buildings and temples and making the Church illegal in those countries? You betcha.

It's not that I do not have faith. It's not that the Church doesn't have faith. The Church has to be smart. We members have to be smart. Association with a forum like this could be seen as bad.

I'll let President George Albert Smith answer you.

"The Lord says, “Woe unto you, when all men speak well of you!” Luke 6:26 Sometimes I have known the papers say this and that good thing about the “Mormons,” and I have said, “What's up? Are we getting wicked, that the world loves us?” And I almost wondered at it. The fact is we should live our religion, keep the commandments of God and observe all things required of us, and care nothing whatever what the world either says or does about us. “Well, but suppose they should get up armies and kill you?” If they do they will send us right straight to heaven; and [p. 297b] our duty is to labor in this life as long as we can and do all the good in our power, and never flinch from the truth or the principles of eternity. If our enemies are permitted to kill us they ensure to us a martyr's crown, and we go to glory celestial. "

https://scriptures.byu.edu/#08e:t1fbf2$67259:c08e0626

This was George A. Smith, the Prophet Joseph’s cousin, not George Albert Smith the 8th President of the Church.

[SempiternalHarbinger]

Excerpt from the Family Proclamation;

"WE WARN that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets."

"WE CALL UPON responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society."

It's finally time to tear the Family Proclamation to pieces. Agreed? Does this unconstitutional act maintain and strengthen the family unit? HELL NO! Unbelievable what's going on with the church.

[Luke]

Excerpt from the Family Proclamation;

"WE WARN that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets."

"WE CALL UPON responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society."

It's finally time to tear the Family Proclamation to pieces. Agreed? Does this unconstitutional act maintain and strengthen the family unit? HELL NO! Unbelievable what's going on with the church.

It will soon be done away with like all the other unpopular tenets of the Church have been done away with in the past.

Thank God that He is unchanging and constant, and that we are still able to always rely on Him.

[Luke]

The Church will NEVER accept same sex marriage inside of the religion, much less inside the temples.

Do you truly believe this?

[Reluctant Watchman]

What does my wife tell her Catholic colleague who asked why the Mormons would support such a thing???

Don't sugar coat it. Teach correct doctrine and expose false doctrine. The church left the reservation long ago.

[Alexander]

What does my wife tell her Catholic colleague who asked why the Mormons would support such a thing???

[Subcomandante]

The Church will NEVER accept same sex marriage inside of the religion, much less inside the temples.

Do you truly believe this?

With all of my heart.

[Ado]

https://www.deseret.com/2022/11/17/2346 ... e-equality

The church didn’t just throw support behind the bill, it contributed to it’s creation. Name-dropping our church on the Senate floor, along with several other religious organizations. We’re part of the cool crew now.

[SempiternalHarbinger]

The Church will NEVER accept same sex marriage inside of the religion, much less inside the temples.

Do you truly believe this?

With all of my heart.

My Mother and I were talking about this topic last night and she told me there is a woman masquerading as a man in her ward. She (he) has the priesthood, served a mission as a man, married in the temple to a woman, has kids (adopted), and is fully active in the church today. I guess everyone in the stake (mother lives right below the Draper temple) knows about it and nobody has any issues with it. I don't know the full story, but clearly, the church is already knowingly performing same-sex marriages in the temple.

[Subcomandante]

The Church will NEVER accept same sex marriage inside of the religion, much less inside the temples.

Do you truly believe this?

With all of my heart.

My Mother and I were talking about this topic last night and she told me there is a woman masquerading as a man in her ward. She (he) has the priesthood, served a mission as a man, married in the temple to a woman, has kids (adopted), and is fully active in the church today. I guess everyone in the stake (mother lives right below the Draper temple) knows about it and nobody has any issues with it. I don't know the full story, but clearly, the church is already knowingly performing same-sex marriages in the temple.

Lots of things are done in ignorance. In Mexico this simply would not happen except out of sheer ignorance of the situation. Because if it were found out that a bishop or a stake president knew about the case and proceeded anyway with these actions, there would be an uproar to the Area President so loud that the very next week there would be a stake and bishopric reorganization (and perhaps disciplinary action levied against the bishop and stake presidents involved in addition to an immediate release).

If this is Utah, and this can be corroberated by multiple witnesses, you need to let the Area President know what is going on. Likewise with the stake conference, when you get down to the local leadership for the sustaining vote, raise your hand against their sustaining. You have to be heard out.

[Lizzy60]

As far as accepting gay marriage inside the religion, the current handbook does not say that gay marriage is apostasy, like it did just recently. That has been removed. There are more and more gay married couples who are members and attending church and holding callings. It’s very common in large city wards. Once in awhile, a stake president decides a gay couple is “too gay” and decides to hold a membership council, and the pro-gay LDS organizations (Mormons Building Bridges, Affirmation, Peculiar, etc) blow a gasket.

Trans women are attending RS, with the approval of their leaders. Trans men are attending PH (but not being ordained) with the approval of their leaders. This is allowed, according to the handbook.

Gay marriage and trans people are currently accepted inside the religion. The only thing to debate is whether they will be more accepted, or less accepted, as time goes on. Wanna take a guess????

[SempiternalHarbinger]

Do you truly believe this?

With all of my heart.

My Mother and I were talking about this topic last night and she told me there is a woman masquerading as a man in her ward. She (he) has the priesthood, served a mission as a man, married in the temple to a woman, has kids (adopted), and is fully active in the church today. I guess everyone in the stake (mother lives right below the Draper temple) knows about it and nobody has any issues with it. I don't know the full story, but clearly, the church is already knowingly performing same-sex marriages in the temple.

Lots of things are done in ignorance. In Mexico this simply would not happen except out of sheer ignorance of the situation. Because if it were found out that a bishop or a stake president knew about the case and proceeded anyway with these actions, there would be an uproar to the Area President so loud that the very next week there would be a stake and bishopric reorganization (and perhaps disciplinary action levied against the bishop and stake presidents involved in addition to an immediate release).

If this is Utah, and this can be corroberated by multiple witnesses, you need to let the Area President know what is going on. Likewise with the stake conference, when you get down to the local leadership for the sustaining vote, raise your hand against their sustaining. You have to be heard out.

Yea, sorry mate, I'm no snitching rat. LOL. Draper Utah. The Draper Temple is in her Stake. Besides, from the sound of it, EVERYONE is fully aware.

[Subcomandante]

With all of my heart.

My Mother and I were talking about this topic last night and she told me there is a woman masquerading as a man in her ward. She (he) has the priesthood, served a mission as a man, married in the temple to a woman, has kids (adopted), and is fully active in the church today. I guess everyone in the stake (mother lives right below the Draper temple) knows about it and nobody has any issues with it. I don't know the full story, but clearly, the church is already knowingly performing same-sex marriages in the temple.

Lots of things are done in ignorance. In Mexico this simply would not happen except out of sheer ignorance of the situation. Because if it were found out that a bishop or a stake president knew about the case and proceeded anyway with these actions, there would be an uproar to the Area President so loud that the very next week there would be a stake and bishopric reorganization (and perhaps disciplinary action levied against the bishop and stake presidents involved in addition to an immediate release).

If this is Utah, and this can be corroberated by multiple witnesses, you need to let the Area President know what is going on. Likewise with the stake conference, when you get down to the local leadership for the sustaining vote, raise your hand against their sustaining. You have to be heard out.

Yea, sorry mate, I'm no snitching rat. LOL. Draper Utah. The Draper Temple is in her Stake. Besides, from the sound of it, EVERYONE is fully aware.

I'm not going to dispute that. A lot of things are going on up there that are quite wild.

My wife has two girl cousins up in Sandy, married to two American men. Apparently from the intel I have received there, people put a pineapple cut-out on a door to identify swingers. I'm not sure if any of you guys have seen that or not.

[hedgehog]

"Jesuits." Weird how that group keeps coming up in topics like this.

TLDR: Yes this will end badly. Yes that's the plan.

If you have never, should look into "the spirit of Jezebel."

The Lords ways are not always our ways. All things of this earth are in his hands. If he is content to let this play out. So am I. As I said earlier, eventually a powerful evil in this country will come for us, no amendment or government will protect us. Lost cause or not, existing secret plans and inevitability's are irrelevant in this context. Fact is we will have tried to coexist with them and respect their free agency. From thus stems our right to rule. In a tragic way, I am convinced it is the Lords plan to have them violate our free agency and not the other way around. Yes I know, that this has very little to do with really protecting their free agency but it does have a little bit and perception wise, everyone thinks it does. Much like with the Nephites and Lamanites, Nephites were never allowed to pursue the Lamanites to their own land even though it meant they would constantly be being attacked and eventually be victims of genocide.

How this plays out. How this always plays out:

Legality and free agency of sins aside, regardless of the cause, there is no such thing as flirting with Marxism. Micro scale, we have all known someone who was normal enough, maybe an introvert, and became a social justice warrior and went crazy and probably left the church. Macro scale, we have seen what different forms of marxism have done to the governments, churches, and people of Russia, China, Venezeula, Cuba, Eastern Europe, Detroit, Pittsburgh, LA, Chicago, Africa, and etc. Within one lifetime sometimes as soon as a decade, they all leave behind a godless Hellhole where violence and degeneracy flourishes and families and religion collapse replaced by authorities governments. Where the powerful dictate and the powerless live in a hypnotized state of distraction and poverty.

Drought, Earthquake, and even the Angel Moronis' trumpet being knocked out of his hand. These are not good signs. Especially all at once. I am not the one to interpret the who, what, and why of the Lords intended message, but scripturally its not a good sign of peace and prosperity to come.

Personally, Church affairs are not my problem, I will not be eternally judged for their actions (i may suffer here just as early saints did though). Church leaders come and go. Being in my 40's I have seen ideas rise and fall even within the church. Salt Lake will not be the site of New Jerusalem. There will be house cleaning on the way to Missouri, that hopefully wont take 40 years. I am focused on keeping myself and my family growing in the Gospel preparing for the day of his return. Before that day, I expect this church's organization will go through much trouble. Much avoidable and Much forseeable. How severe is not for me to say, but it sounds like at least a part of it survives. My goal is to be in that part.

[logonbump]

I had the time to look at these responses, some of them alarming, others good, others that are quite off base.

The Church will NEVER accept same sex marriage inside of the religion, much less inside the temples. However, the Church realizes that

Am I off base?

It's going to begin with allowing or being forced to allow traditional style bride and groom sealings tho including a transsexual bride or groom (or both!)

[MikeMaillet]

I have limited time to participate in the forum but I did read the majority of the posts in this discussion. I also read some of the news stories regarding the church's support of the bill. It seems that this is just another indication that our "leaders" have sold their souls to the whore Babylon and these guys are better left ignored. Instead of wasting our time paying attention to the Q15 we would be better off sticking our noses in the scriptures.

The topic of homosexuality is a hot button these days but what is right is right and what is wrong is wrong. Why do we pussyfoot around the subject? Adam (which is many) was placed in a state of deep sleep (amnesia) and was separated into two sexes, male and female. Is not the marriage act on earth a symbolic reunification of Adam and Eve? Homosexuality is a dead end and sodomy is a gross mockery of the power God has given us to perpetuate the species. Calling this "love" is an absolute farce. It is what it is and I don't have a problem saying it.

For those of you who still believe that the Q15 are Prophets, Seers and Revelators, how much more evidence do you need before you conclude that something is very wrong in Zion? The Book of Mormon tells us that we are living on land that was covenanted to belong to the descendants of Lehi and this covenanted land requires a certain life style or we will be swept off like the Nephites of old. We Gentiles had an opportunity to live the fulness of the Gospel (United Order) and we rejected the covenant and a consequence of this is that God's protection is no longer promised. Our land has been taken over by Satanists and we support these devil worshippers by using their money. With this money they have purchased all major media outlets and are now spreading their filth and polluting the minds of our youth.

Ignore the Q15 and stand up for what is right!

Mike

Isaiah 3

8) Jerusalem will falter and Judea fall
because their tongue and their actions
are contrary to Jehovah,
an affront to his glory before his very eyes.

9) The look on their faces betrays them:
they flaunt their sin like Sodom;
they cannot hide it.
Woe to their souls;
they have brought disaster upon themselves!

10) Tell the righteous it shall be well with them;
they shall eat the fruits of their own labors.

11) But woe to the wicked
when calamity overtakes them:
they shall be paid back
for the deeds they have done!

12) As for my people, babes subject them;
women wield authority over them.
O my people, your leaders mislead you,
abolishing your traditional ways.

13) Jehovah will take a stand and contend with them;
he has arisen to judge the nations.

14) He will bring to trial the elders of his people
and their rulers, and say to them,
It is you who have devoured the vineyard;
you fill your houses by depriving the needy.

[mtpop]

So, we compromise our principles to keep from offending anyone. That's a very slippery slope.

[1775peasant]

I have limited time to participate in the forum but I did read the majority of the posts in this discussion. I also read some of the news stories regarding the church's support of the bill. It seems that this is just another indication that our "leaders" have sold their souls to the whore Babylon and these guys are better left ignored. Instead of wasting our time paying attention to the Q15 we would be better off sticking our noses in the scriptures.

The topic of homosexuality is a hot button these days but what is right is right and what is wrong is wrong. Why do we pussyfoot around the subject? Adam (which is many) was placed in a state of deep sleep (amnesia) and was separated into two sexes, male and female. Is not the marriage act on earth a symbolic reunification of Adam and Eve? Homosexuality is a dead end and sodomy is a gross mockery of the power God has given us to perpetuate the species. Calling this "love" is an absolute farce. It is what it is and I don't have a problem saying it.

For those of you who still believe that the Q15 are Prophets, Seers and Revelators, how much more evidence do you need before you conclude that something is very wrong in Zion? The Book of Mormon tells us that we are living on land that was covenanted to belong to the descendants of Lehi and this covenanted land requires a certain life style or we will be swept off like the Nephites of old. We Gentiles had an opportunity to live the fulness of the Gospel (United Order) and we rejected the covenant and a consequence of this is that God's protection is no longer promised. Our land has been taken over by Satanists and we support these devil worshippers by using their money. With this money they have purchased all major media outlets and are now spreading their filth and polluting the minds of our youth.

Ignore the Q15 and stand up for what is right!

Mike

Isaiah 3

8) Jerusalem will falter and Judea fall
because their tongue and their actions
are contrary to Jehovah,
an affront to his glory before his very eyes.

9) The look on their faces betrays them:
they flaunt their sin like Sodom;
they cannot hide it.
Woe to their souls;
they have brought disaster upon themselves!

10) Tell the righteous it shall be well with them;
they shall eat the fruits of their own labors.

11) But woe to the wicked
when calamity overtakes them:
they shall be paid back
for the deeds they have done!

12) As for my people, babes subject them;
women wield authority over them.
O my people, your leaders mislead you,
abolishing your traditional ways.

13) Jehovah will take a stand and contend with them;
he has arisen to judge the nations.

14) He will bring to trial the elders of his people
and their rulers, and say to them,
It is you who have devoured the vineyard;
you fill your houses by depriving the needy.

yes, that’s 1 admirable course of action that would remove A LOT of distraction from the most important topics of life…….

BUT, if i were the posterity of Pioneer Stock, knowing i had ancestors that sacrificed so the Mormon Church could flourish, having generations contributed time, sweat & $$$ in the relatively short history of this Church…..? i’d be quite upset with these Leaders of today!

heck, i’m just a convert of 11 years now, and just witnessing the drastic changes in that drop of time, i’m at my wits end with these “leaders”!!!